Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jewelprotector 08-15-07, 03:28 PM	I honestly like most of Ebberon. But For some reason, probably based on my own prejudices and stubbornness, I have a hard time liking changlings. At all. As either PC's or NPC's. Please, change my mind. If you are a fan of changlings--if you like to play them or to run them--please tell me why. I probably will argue, because I question everything. Please don't take it personally.
ccerose 08-15-07, 04:15 PM	First off, there's only one "b" and two "r"s, not the other way around. Changelings can be a lot of fun to play in campaigns that focus on social/non-combat encounters. Adventures that focus on stealth and subterfuge are the perfect type for changeling characters. I like how the Tyrants are portrayed in Sharn: CoT. It really adds flavor to the criminal element in the city. Honestly though, I don't know why you need others to change your mind. If the changeling, as its presented in the ECS doesn't pique your interest, then leave them as a background race always disguised as one of the other races.
TheKeyofE 08-15-07, 04:25 PM	I think he's looking not for someone to change his mind, but maybe for something about Changelings that he missed, something that might change his opinion. I for one feel kind of the same way about changelings. I don't really know why, but they just don't appeal to me much. They're useful as plot devices, but not so much as actual characters.
TiwazTyrsfist 08-15-07, 04:42 PM	If you're doing a standard Bang em up, dungeon crawl, changelings don't add a whole lot. If, however, you are doing something that involves Politics, Subterfuge, and a lot of role playing, they shine. Changelings are excellent villans if you want to do the whole "your sponsor is the villian" schtick. Also, Good for sowing confussion. Say your employer isn't the villian, but your villian is a changeling. And the PC's don't know yet. Things get interesting, as he shows up periodically and gives conflicting instructions, offers new leads that half the time are helpful, and half the time lead you into traps. As PC's, they shine as rogues. Again, in the RP heavy political scene.
Kid SixXx 08-15-07, 05:12 PM	If you're doing a standard Bang em up, dungeon crawl, changelings don't add a whole lot. I have to disagree, as changeling rogues make great recon / spies, especially if there are medium sized humanoids to deal with in the dungeon. It's always fun to have your changeling mug and take the place of one of the locals, so he can scope out the territory for you.
TiwazTyrsfist 08-15-07, 05:39 PM	That's a point. Changeling rogues are good at spying on any humanoid group. Especially if you take down a scout outside the camp.
Rechan 08-15-07, 05:50 PM	To me, Changelings are cool because simply being a changeling influences who the character is. You don't usually question "How does being a dwarf change this wizard", but "How does being a changeling change this character's outlook" can definitely effect it. (This is partially why you have substitution levels for Changeling egoists and tansmutationalists - their innate capacity influences their class). The ability to alter one's appearances allows a lot from a thematic and mental exercise. It lets you play with things. A monk who can mold his features might try to create a martial arts style that part of dodging incorporates shrinking or growing thinner - attacks might include making the limbs longer. Sure, there's no mechanical effect, but it's visually appealing. (Especially if you played a lot of Street Fighter as a kid). Even further, if you want to create a character with a particular Schtick, a changeling is the way to go. If you can't play an undead, but still want your necromancer to look undead? Be a changeling. Want your monk to have shifting tattoos that flow over his body? Be a changeling. Want to steal the likeness of a hero from legend in your campaign world? Be a changeling. Continuing on the thematic notion, I like a character who can tailor himself to how I'm feeling at the moment. If I want to be dark, he can look pale and dark-eyed and foreboding. If I feel tough, he can Look tough. My feelings, and thus the character's feelings, can influence his whole appearance, and that is really intriguing, to me. Also, I did a lot of theatre in school and college, so a character that can tailor his appearance to his current role has a lot of general appeal.
Jewelprotector 08-15-07, 05:54 PM	Ok, good stuff so far. To address ccerose's comment, I'm looking for someone to change my mind because I think I should be able to use all the resources of such a rich and colorful setting. (I have a set of completely different issues about the warforged, as well, that I'm going to introduce on another thread.) Yeah, I could just have them always disguised as another race...but I'd rather find ways of actually using them, and I'm fully aware that most of my problems with them are due at least partially to pure stubborn prejudice on my part. (I hope that's not a sign of age...) So I'm going on the offensive, attacking my preconceived and ill-thought notions, and I'm using your opinions as buck-shot. Hope you all don't mind. :) Rechan, you'd think the method actor in me would have caught on to that at once. Huh.
Rechan 08-15-07, 06:08 PM	Another thought. One thing that's often overlooked is non-sneaking deception. If you have the disguise skill to pull it off, you could act like something that would scare the pants off things. Those cut throats in the alley may not be that intimidated by a guy with a sword, but if they walk into the alley behind you, turn around as A Vampire and walk towards them with a pointy smile and they'll reconsider real fast. Pick up some decent armor, and a heavy chain from a supply closet, and you can look like a dangerous Hobgoblin warrior to people who don't know know any better, but who have heard the reputation of hobgoblin fighters. If you have the time to plan ahead, or if you need a quick distraction with the right equipment, a changeling can be a real boon. Also: I see Changelings as a way of having a costume. A changeling can wear a face like a criminal would wear a mask - you have an appearance that the authorities (or your enemies) will be looking for, and all you have to do is just look different. This is a nice passive defense.
Jewelprotector 08-15-07, 09:01 PM	Wow. Again something I completely missed. Have a :cookie:
AntiSean 08-15-07, 11:41 PM	While quoting oneself is somewhat gauche, I feel that Professor Saeral is a decent example of using changelings as an NPC/plot device: "This is a new form for you, Niv. I don't think I've ever seen you looking quite like this before." Niv had taken on the appearance of a male changeling about 5 and a half feet tall, with an unruly shock of grayish white hair. Two large, solid white eyes dominated a smooth, nearly featureless gray face. "Well, I figured I should let our employer know who they're dealing with, but I don't feel the need to give away all my secrets. And by the way, the name for this face is 'Mok'." "Sorry, Mok. So how did you get this job again? Can we trust our employer?" Mok scoffed. "Of course we can't trust them - we can't trust anyone, especially someone who would hire services through Professor Saeral." "Who is Professor Saeral?" "Professor Malloran Saeral is a doddering, senile old elf who teaches Comparative analysis of gender roles in Early Dhakaani artwork at Morgrave University. He's had an office buried deep inside one of the towers of Morgrave for as long as anyone can remember. Strangely enough, no one ever seems interested in signing up for such an esoteric subject. He is known amongst those who are in the know as a man with connections. He is legendary for his ability to connect interested parties with hired help suitable for a variety of delicate and discrete tasks. Crusaders and scoundrels, thieves and explorers, thugs and smugglers, the good Professor always seems to know just the right person for a job. What most people don't know is that Malloran Saeral doesn't exist. It's an open face for any and all changelings in Sharn to wear when they're looking for work. People looking to hire talent through the Professor leave a message in his office. From time to time, a changeling will wear his face, show up at his office, and if he finds a job he likes, introduce himself to the client as being referred by the Professor." "Interesting. What happens if two changelings show up at once?" "There are a few signals we leave for each other so that two Mallorans don't show up in the same place at the same time. It's a pretty good system; Saeral's office clerk doesn't even know about it, the clerk just collects his messages when he's out and passes them on to him whenever he shows up. There's always a job for someone. If you find something that doesn't suit your interests or talent, there's bound to be someone else who will take the job. Most of them are pretty small-time, but occasionally, you find a big one. And Autumn, my friend, we have found ourselves a big one this time!"
eehamburg 08-16-07, 08:56 AM	I have a set of completely different issues What are your issues with the changeling and the warforged? they are key races to Eberron. They are part of what makes Eberron fun. What do you have against them? And don't use a blanket statement that you have a predudice against them or that you don't like them or that they seem silly because we have heard it all before ... state specifics and specifics will be addressed.
Rechan 08-16-07, 11:27 AM	I will say that changelings can obviously be misused by a DM. If the DM pulls the "He's really a changeling!" trick on the PCs too many times, they will start to hate them or second guess everything. Or invest in Sense Motive and True Seeing. If they think every villain has a backup changeling, or every person isn't who they are, then I have the feeling they're not going to be very happy - or see changelings as one-trick ponies. Thing of it is, remember that in a place like Eberron, the minor shapechange effect can be duplicated so easily. Disguise Self, be it from a caster, scroll or potion, hats of disguise, etc, have the same effect. So anyone can potentially play the changeling game.
justjarjar 08-16-07, 11:47 AM	They are good at beging lvls for there shapechange. I thought that canglings have a easy time in a campain starting in sharn. They can fake easly at lvls 1-3 without useing up spells and cash. Thus makeing them cool. {also major theves gulds + PC changling = alsome}
Yami 08-16-07, 12:04 PM	As said above, in a pure wargame type campaign, the advantages / disadvantages of changelings are limited to special class options. The usefulness of their shape changing abilities can be easy to miss in such an environment. The roleplay possibilities are, however, endless. I've made a couple changelings. One was openly a changeling - who went out of her way to make sure everyone saw her as completely harmless. She was a low level wizard / bard gestalt, big on conversation and study. She had a "usual" face she wore, with frequent adjustments to make people feel that they knew who and what she was - that she was a known quantity, and "safe", and then a few alternate identities she only used in secret - homeless people, a travelling storyteller, a young street urchin. She was comfortable with her changeling heritage, more open about it than most, and used her social skills to put people at ease and maybe play the occasional joke, no more. The other hid her nature - even from herself as much as possible. She assumed an identity and held it close, to the point of keeping scars earned in conflict that marred her feature quite badly. Only in life and death situations would she even consider changing her appearance - and even then it was a struggle. She was a fighter character, with a level of rogue for her checkered past (and those wonderful 10 skill points for the changeling rogue level!) - and a group of people were too tough for her and her fellows to take out - the two left standing were forced to evacuate out the third story windows of two towers, with three of their four opponents still standing. Worried for her helpless friends still in the tower, she did her best to assume the guise and voice of their employer - and through some amazing rolls (this was not something she'd invested many skill ranks in) managed to convince them she was their boss, and she wanted them to leave the unconscious fallen adventurers alone, and help her "move some equipment" in a locked room with a dangerous monster. This killed the major meleer of the enemy group, gave the two adventurers time to revive their companions, and saved the day. It's one of the shining moments of my career as a player, and wouldn't be possible with any other character except a very disguise oriented rogue. The roleplaying opportunities are boundless. The intrigue they introduce into the Eberron world is intrinsic to its atmosphere. It's not a race for all characters, it's not a race for all players, but I think the experiences you can have with them is so wonderful, it's always worth considering. Some of my changeling characters, and other changeling requests http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/ageofworms1_sm.jpg (http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/ageofworms1.jpg) http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/del_sm.jpg (http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/del.jpg) http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/toox_sm.jpg (http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/toox.jpg) http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/changeling_transform_sm.jpg http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/changling_warlock_sm.jpg (http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/changeling_transform.jpg) http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/lau_ropes_sm.jpg (http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/lau_ropes.jpg) http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/lau_hang_sm.jpg (http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/lau_hang.jpg) http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/crin_sm.jpg (http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/crin.jpg)
Nived 08-16-07, 12:42 PM	http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/del_sm.jpg (http://www.jessdoor.com/galleries/art/del.jpg) The cuteness of this one made me go "D'awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww":cloud9:
SQuigley316 08-16-07, 01:17 PM	I have only played one Changeling and while I enjoyed the character aspects of it, I don't think the others in our group got the full grasp of what a Changeling can bring to the table. In our very first adventure as a 1st lvl Rogue, we followed clues to a storefront and made our way to the basement to discover something left behind by a deceased mutual acquiantance to the PC's when we were attacked by a Warforged and a gang of orcs. Since we were cornered in an open room, my Rogue decided to play dead disguised as an orc from the first wave of attackers in hopes to sneak attack at an appropriate time. When the DM called for my move and I said I disguised myself as the first orc that came down and play dead, everyone in the party looked at me like I had two heads. After that I heard it at every encounter "Why don't you play dead?". I thought it was a sneaky, clever, and very Changeling like thing to do. I just think some people just don't fully gauge what the race can bring to a group.
Jewelprotector 08-16-07, 02:28 PM	What do you have against them? And don't use a blanket statement that you have a predudice against them or that you don't like them or that they seem silly because we have heard it all before ... state specifics and specifics will be addressed. Well, that's exactly my problem with the changelings...I can't say specifically why I don't like them, except that they seem...unformed. (Pun only partially intended.) They don't seem to have much of a history and little except persecution to bind them as a group. That bothers me, because I like to know the history of a group, before I say why a particular member of that group does or does not conform to it. (My concerns about the warforged are entirely different, and like I said before, I'll address that in another thread.) What that means for me is that as a player and a DM, I can't find a motivation for changeling characters. So I can't effectively use them, but I hate to ignore them or ban them from a game I'm running just because I don't know how to handle them.
Rechan 08-16-07, 02:57 PM	Well, that's exactly my problem with the changelings...I can't say specifically why I don't like them, except that they seem...unformed. (Pun only partially intended.) They don't seem to have much of a history and little except persecution to bind them as a group. That bothers me, because I like to know the history of a group, before I say why a particular member of that group does or does not conform to it. (My concerns about the warforged are entirely different, and like I said before, I'll address that in another thread.) I agree with you in part, I understand WHY they were executed the way they are. Changelings are more like... social chameleons. They are not cohesive as a group - they have no Group history because they have assimilated themselves into other cultures and societies. In a way, Changelings are like how almost all other settings handle Half-elves; they have no culture because they are part of the dominant culture. However, I agree that how they have been handled is very... dismissive. "Yeah they don't trust eachother and just try to assimilate and that's it and such". I hated how they were handled in RoE (which I have debated to death in other threads, so I shan't get into it here). Honestly, I would expect that changelings would be treated similar to how Illumians are treated. They act appropriate to the dominant culture, but there is a small cell of them - like ten - who act as a "clan". It's like a secret organization / private club / sub-cutlure, where they let their hair down. Given how Changelings are so social, I would expect them to at least seek out their own kind for gossip and overall companionship, because other changelings may understand them more.
eehamburg 08-16-07, 03:37 PM	Well, that's exactly my problem with the changelings...I can't say specifically why I don't like them, except that they seem...unformed. (Pun only partially intended.) They don't seem to have much of a history and little except persecution to bind them as a group. That bothers me, because I like to know the history of a group, before I say why a particular member of that group does or does not conform to it. (My concerns about the warforged are entirely different, and like I said before, I'll address that in another thread.) What that means for me is that as a player and a DM, I can't find a motivation for changeling characters. So I can't effectively use them, but I hate to ignore them or ban them from a game I'm running just because I don't know how to handle them. What makes a halfling more 'formed'? or a 'gnome'? or a 'gnoll'? or any other race? In this case the changeling is a race of shape shifters. The can disguise themselves and that has advantages. They are lacking an identity and are looking for one. Think like a refugee. or someone who has been persecuted. You are limiting yourself if you can't use your imagination to think of a character who can work well with this character race. This group does have a history is you read about it within the books. Because based on your comment, there is no history for warforged, shifters, or kalashtar either and we all know that within Eberron these things ALL have histories.
Jewelprotector 08-16-07, 03:57 PM	You are limiting yourself if you can't use your imagination to think of a character who can work well with this character race. This group does have a history is you read about it within the books. Because based on your comment, there is no history for warforged, shifters, or kalashtar either and we all know that within Eberron these things ALL have histories. We all have our limits. I am attempting to acknowledge, and overcome, this particular limit of mine. I am somewhat handicapped in having little access to Eberron material. I have read the core book (but do not own it), I own Secrets of Sarlona (or rather, my mate does, because he uses the psionic-based material frequently), and that's all. But the shifters grabbed me on a very primitive (or maybe the word is "primal") level when I first read about them. I have had the opportunity to read the Dragon Below trilogy, which had a beautifully drawn kalashtar character. I simply have not had such a reaction or opportunity regarding the changelings or the warforged.
ZimTsu 08-16-07, 11:39 PM	In my limited DMing experience, changelings are good to create paranoia in players. Whenever they start taking things for granted, abusing their contacts, patrons and store owners with compulsion magic and far fetched diplomacy and intimidate rolls, or when they think they can just manipulate NPC factions, just throw in a changeling that has assassinated or kidnapped the NPC they think they are talking to, and pull the rug from under their feet. After a while, paranoia is running so deep they just leave the city and do some adventures in the wilds, with things that don't talk back. I know it sounds like I'm a poor DM that can't handle socially manipulative players, but when they think they broke the sistem, changelings can can change that idea. Of course, players can do this the other way around. A different, more tactical use for a changeling as a PC is to hide and strike at the enemies each time with a different face. They will you are legion, and surrender.
DrowBattlemind 08-17-07, 02:02 AM	I think he's looking not for someone to change his mind, but maybe for something about Changelings that he missed, something that might change his opinion. Either way, he's a she. And my wife. :rofl: Sorry, I realize that it's easy to assume that being a gamer equals she's a guy, but just the thought...
DrowBattlemind 08-17-07, 02:13 AM	What are your issues with the changeling and the warforged? they are key races to Eberron. They are part of what makes Eberron fun. What do you have against them? And don't use a blanket statement that you have a predudice against them or that you don't like them or that they seem silly because we have heard it all before ... state specifics and specifics will be addressed. That's the PROBLEM, dude. She can't quite verbalize what it is that just rubs her the wrong way about them, she just knows that the problem is there, not what the problem exactly is. Think of it like this. It's like when Windows crashes for the umpteen-ubermillionth time, and you aren't sure why. A programmer could probably tell you that kernel 43867 was conflicting with DLL #32, but is the average user going to know that? No. That's part of the situation here, she's trying to 'troubleshoot' the mental kludginess of her subconcious, seeing other folks' take on the 'forged and changelings, to try and see what it is she's missing. Until she does, she can't QUITE place what and where the concepts are bothering her.
Michael_Silverforge 08-17-07, 10:45 AM	Madame Jewelprotector, GAME FLAVOR. If you like playing rogues with inate disguise capability then Changlings are cool. If you always wanted to play Tonks from "Harry Potter" and constantly change your hair color then Changlings are cool. If the thought of being able to turn into something that looks like what's attacking you, getting in behind them and sneak attacking then Changlings are cool. If not, then that's cool too. In our last campaign, a succubus we ran up against early on, made a cryptic remark that the party thought meant we had a doppleganger in our midst. It was serious for a while, but then the running joke, whenever someone did something out of character, became "OH, so you're the doppleganger we were warned about". Now, at last, we really have one in the party.
ArcTan 08-18-07, 02:37 AM	The deal with Changelings and Warforged is that they're both races who *are*, in some essential and fundamental way, something that other people merely assume as a role for a while. War is a part of life in Eberron. There are soldiers and mercenaries and thugs everywhere you look. There are a lot more people in this world who know how to use a sword or bow than there are people in ours who know how to use a handgun. Fighting and dying is everywhere. But for most people war is a thing that *happens* and then *ends*. Even if it happens for a hundred years, it ends eventually -- and the whole time it goes on you're *wishing* for it to end, for victory and peace. You may be a level 6 Fighter who kicks ass and takes names on the battlefield, but you have a home to go back to, a wife to hug and kiss, games to play, drinks to drink, fun things to do that don't have to do with killing. Even Hobgoblins and the monstrous races have a culture that happens after the raids and carnage stop, at least in theory. People make war, but people don't exist *for* war. Except the Warforged. Not only were the Warforged produced only to fight in war, but war is the only thing they understand -- the concept of how to live life in "peace" is confusing and strange to them. And because war is what they were made for, they don't find it horrifying or evil. Other people can talk about the "ravages of war" and use war as a threat and hope for peace. They can't. They all start out thinking an all-out conflict where two sides are trying to do everything possible to kill the other is normal, natural and the way things should be. That's strange. It's creepy. It's troubling. Likewise, deception is everywhere in Eberron. Anyone with any degree of power probably has some contacts whom he doesn't let know about his other contacts, and vice versa, and has a public face and a private face, and multiple agendas that he lets different people think are his real agenda. This is true to some degree of everyone, of course, but in a world as dominated by secret societies and factionalization as Eberron it's ramped up. But the deception, too, isn't really seen as natural. Most people have a "private life" where they go home and the lying, more or less, stops. Most people have things they can't lie about -- it requires a pretty expensive magic item or else a lot of work with makeup and paints to look like a different person from who you are. Most people only have one name and one identity. Changelings aren't like that. A Changeling is born with the *natural* ability to completely remove all trace of her original identity and get a new one. It's a part of her; she can't get rid of it, even if she were to choose not to use it, and most of them *do* use it. Feats of deception that would take any normal Human Commoner a great deal of work to accomplish are second nature to her. This creeps people out. This causes problems. There are certain ways a Changeling thinks -- about the nature of "lying" and "honesty" and "integrity" -- that might shock someone with a more normal background. Again, it's taking something that's universal that people deny is universal and embodying it in a form you can't ignore. Warforged embody violence. Changelings embody deception. You can make a similar argument that the Shifters embody the primal animal in all of us, and the Kalashtar embody the transcendent and the spiritual in all of us, though that argument's a little harder to make. But with the WF and Shifters, the plot-based questions the races are meant to bring up are pretty clear.
Werebat 08-20-07, 12:37 AM	I honestly like most of Ebberon. But For some reason, probably based on my own prejudices and stubbornness, I have a hard time liking changlings. At all. As either PC's or NPC's. Please, change my mind. If you are a fan of changlings--if you like to play them or to run them--please tell me why. I could tell you all about why changelings make excellent NPC courtesans, but we'd have to move the discussion to the "mature" board... ;) - Ron ^*^
Jewelprotector 08-27-07, 09:46 AM	Trust me, I don't need any help with that. ;) I've played plenty of courtesans... But really, I'm glad I started this thread, even though it seems to have been slowly dying. I've got a much better handle on both changlings and warforged. Still not certain I'd play a warforged, but I could definitely run one as an npc. And I might consider a changeling, next time I get a chance to play in Eberron. (Though I don't know when that will be.) Thanks for all your help. I will keep checking, from time to time, so keep posting if you want to!
ZeroSD 08-28-07, 04:44 AM	Also from the point of the view of the Changling, keep in mind they're a distrusted minority. Sure, a lot of them might be bakers who only use their disguise to fit in or not at all, but one of them *could* be behind almost anything. So people gossip. People worry. And the Changlings often here it. It's mitigated somewhat that some Changlings might be 'our' Changlings, i.e. they helped us during the war!, but on the whole they're a somewhat distrusted minority and the suspicion isn't likely to go away due to their very nature.
Rauric 08-28-07, 07:25 PM	I play one that is a cleric/rog of the Traveler. I was pretending to be a human in the beginning of the campaign. It was fun. I used the rog sub levels so I could be the best at gather info and get more skill points which was nice. Plus I can now be a warshaper!;) Everytime I take on a new personality it is someone I have met before. Before joining the rest of the PCs I was on a ship that sank and I was the sole survivor. Every person I turn into is one of the people I met on that ship.
Lord_Cronos 08-29-07, 12:30 AM	Changlings ROCK! One of my favorite characters is a rogue/chameleon.... He is the one guy that can get any job done! plus he's good in a fight! My other fav changling character is my swashbuckler/rogue..Daring outlaw build.. He is a pirate by trade he assumes a crew members face then leaves with the boat and the rest of the party waits on there boat for his sign then he helps them on board and the secure the ship.... he's done this 2 times so far and he's thinking about a storm ship next....lol
Hellcow 08-29-07, 04:54 PM	I can't say specifically why I don't like them, except that they seem...unformed. (Pun only partially intended.) They don't seem to have much of a history and little except persecution to bind them as a group. That bothers me, because I like to know the history of a group, before I say why a particular member of that group does or does not conform to it. In this case of changelings, this is intentional. The Gray Tide is the closest thing changelings have ever had to a homeland, and that's a recent development. Beyond that, Sharn probably has the largest concentrated population of changelings, notable Dragonseyes in Lower Tavick's Landing (along with the Tyrants). The changelings have essentially taken the title of the orphan race away from half-orcs and Khoravar, who in Eberron are either closely integrated with their parent races or have their own powerful economic forces to give them identities. The use of the term "changeling" is no accident; many changelings are born to parents who never realized the person they took to be their spouse or partner was other than what they seemed, and are shocked when the child turns out to be a little gray creature; the concept is that in the past, they assumed that their child had been stolen and replaced, hence "changeling". So in this, some of what you hate about the changelings is what I like. They don't have culture or history to fall back on - which means that every changeling community (assuming you can find a community in the first place) will be different. They don't even belong with each other. As a first-generation changeling born to (and unwanted by) an Aundairian family, the ways of the third or fourth-generation changelings of Dragonseyes will be completely alien to you; the culture that's been developed by the Gray Tide will be something else entirely. As a changeling you need to determine who you are - a task made all the more difficult by the fact that you are whoever you wish to be. Will you conform to societies' fears and suspicions, using your talents for personal gain? Will you merely hide your true nature? Or will you find a place in the world that accounts for who and what you are? With all that said, one of the things I love about changelings IS the concept of changeling culture. I wanted to write a novel set in Dragonseyes, but it ended up falling by the wayside. TO me, the concept of a society where physical identity is little more than clothing or art is a fascinating thing. In Sharn we have the fact that the changeling on the City Council is actually a group of changelings, who take turns assuming the role. It's an entirely different way of looking at identity; whoever is currently undertaking the duties of Kilk takes on the appearance and mannerisms, not as a disguise but because that's what Kilk is; a shared identity created to fill this purpose. In my campaign, the families of Dragonseyes have identities that they pass down through the generations as heirlooms - the same was a human might give a magic sword to a child. Theft of such an identity is a serious crime; we've spent generations perfecting this elf merchant, developing his mannerisms and building up his reputation, and if you suddenly duplicate him you are both threatening the reputation and also destroying the artistry of it with your flawed depiction. As such, some changelings may actually be more concerned with identity theft than humans, because they look at identity in a very different way. In any case, there's been some excellent suggestions here. Rechan's earlier observations about maintaining different identities for different purposes is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about, and even minor change - specifically, the threat of the vampire - can have tremendous power in a world where such creatures exist. But it is intentional that changelings don't have a deep history or culture as a race, because that's the nature of their race; instead, they have isolated pockets where cultures have developed. As a result, you need to decide if your changeling is part of such a group, or if you are a solitary searching for your own sense of meaning. (With all due respect to Races of Eberron, I don't hold to the idea that ALL changelings have to follow one of three paths. I'm perfectly content to have those be popular philosophies in certain existing changeling communities, but to me saying ALL changelings do anything flies in the face of the fact that they ARE a scattered race with no one anchor or defining point in history.) What that means for me is that as a player and a DM, I can't find a motivation for changeling characters. So let's look at this another way. You say that your issue is that you can't get a handle on what binds them together as a group, and as such why someone would conform or not conform. Thing one is that changelings, as a race, are not a group. They have no overarching racial story. Which means, in a sense... they are just like humans. There's no one "human story". Instead, when you create a human, you need to determine where he's from. Is he from Khorvaire, Seren, or Sarlona? From Khorvaire? Well, which nation? Thrane? Well, Silver Flame or Sovereign Host? Flame? Well, Moderate, Pure Flame, or Whispering Flame? The same should be the case with the changeling. Simply being a changeling alone is not enough to define your story. Instead, you need to break things down: What continent? The changelings of Riedra have a COMPLETELY different culture and backstory than those of Khorvaire. If Riedra, you need to figure out what your changeling is doing in Khorvaire; is he a spy, following his own quest for enlightenment, or a rebel? If Khorvaire, you have the immediate question of What Country? If he's from the Lhazaar Principalities, he could be from the Gray Tide, at which point he DOES have a culture and a society of his own kind. If not... well, pick a country and we'll move forward. Next, Is he part of a changeling community in that country? Again, there is a changeling neighborhood in Sharn; you can assume there are similar enclaves in Fairhaven, Passage, and Wroat (Breland and Aundair having the highest changeling populations) and possibly any other major city in Khorvaire. If so, What is the flavor of that community? Are they feared and persecuted by the other locals? Do they get along with the other locals? Do the other locals even know their are changelings in their midst, or do they remain undercover? Connected to this... Whether it's the individual or the community, How do they relate to the culture of the nation they are in? In Eberron, you're not just an elf or a dwarf; you're a Valenar elf and a Mror dwarf. There should be just as significant a difference between a Lhazaar changeling and an Eldeen changeling. Speaking of the Eldeen, the changelings of the Greensingers are an example of a place where changelings work in close harmony with non-changelings... and have a culture very different from the Tyrants or the Gray Tide. In any case, that's the question. When you set up your changeling community in Passage, do its members see themselves as Aundairians? Did they fight for Aundair during the Last War, and do they want to get Thaliost back from Thrane - do they have relatives of their own in Thaliost? Do they see themselves as an isolated, persecuted community - or, even if the locals DON'T trust them, do they nonetheless consider themselves to be Aundairians? This is especially relevant when connected to... What about religion? Many changelings who reject the local culture embrace the Traveler, and there we have the Cabinet of Faces. In some ways, worship of the Traveler is "The Changeling Culture" - because its followers believe that they are uniquely qualified to understand the deity in a way humans cannot. But nothing stops a changeling from being a devout follower of the Silver Flame, Sovereign Host, Cults of the Dragon Below, or what have you. So if you have that follower of the Silver Flame in Thrane, he considers himself to be a Thrane and a member of the church first and foremost; the fact that he's a changeling is secondary to him. The question is whether he's in a community that accepts him, or whether the fact that he's a changeling causes distrust and suspicion - and if so, if he'll hide it in order to fit into the community he WANTS to be a part of. Anyhow, I could go on and on, and I need to get back to my novel. But my point here is that a changeling in the Five Nations ISN'T automatically part of a single culture, religion, or group of any sort, any more than a human is. You need to decide what group he belongs to - and then the question is whether his changeling nature is an asset, or something he is forced to hide.
Jewelprotector 08-29-07, 06:18 PM	WOW! Awesome take on the changelings, Hellcow! I will definitely be taking you points into consideration in my next Eberron campaign--I even have an idea for a PC...
TheKeyofE 08-29-07, 07:01 PM	Before joining the rest of the PCs I was on a ship that sank and I was the sole survivor. Every person I turn into is one of the people I met on that ship. So it's like a one-person-play version of Titanic? ;)
Rauric 08-29-07, 09:05 PM	So it's like a one-person-play version of Titanic? ;) Yep. When I want to do a rich guy I use the funny loud dwarf merchant I met, I also like the old senile human who was sooo loud the crew thought about keelhauling him a few times.
eehamburg 09-03-07, 06:05 PM	WOW! Awesome take on the changelings, Hellcow! I will definitely be taking you points into consideration in my next Eberron campaign--I even have an idea for a PC... Interesting that you say that it is an awesome take on changelings from Hellcow since it is Hellcow who created or envisioned Eberron in the first place. So if there was ever a chance to get an idea of what something in the world was supposed to mean, then he is the guy to go to for the original perspective.
Jewelprotector 09-04-07, 08:08 AM	Interesting that you say that it is an awesome take on changelings from Hellcow since it is Hellcow who created or envisioned Eberron in the first place. So if there was ever a chance to get an idea of what something in the world was supposed to mean, then he is the guy to go to for the original perspective. I did not know that.
eehamburg 09-04-07, 09:26 AM	I did not know that. Now you do ... and knowing is half the battle ... Yo Joe!
ZimTsu 09-04-07, 05:47 PM	I did not know that. And that, my friend, is the reason some people read sigs.
Jewelprotector 09-04-07, 06:21 PM	I read sigs. But being in someone's sig, doesn't necessarily make it true, or applicable to the poster.
Esgay 09-05-07, 05:40 PM	Now you do ... and knowing is half the battle ... Yo Joe! So what's the other half?
Hellcow 09-05-07, 05:50 PM	So what's the other half? That would be the shooting.
eehamburg 09-05-07, 06:05 PM	That would be the shooting. Keith ... there wasn't much shooting in GI Joe ... just at Cobra... LOL
Hellcow 09-05-07, 06:14 PM	Keith ... there wasn't much shooting in GI Joe ... just at Cobra... LOL Clearly you haven't seen the deleted scenes. I can see why they cut them for the kiddie audience! Scarlett gives the whole "Look both ways before crossing the road... now you know... and knowing's half the battle" schtick. Then Snake Eyes tosses a grenade into the window of a drunk driver's car. And that's... the REST of the story.
eehamburg 09-05-07, 06:18 PM	Clearly you haven't seen the deleted scenes. I can see why they cut them for the kiddie audience! Scarlett gives the whole "Look both ways before crossing the road... now you know... and knowing's half the battle" schtick. Then Snake Eyes tosses a grenade into the window of a drunk driver's car. And that's... the REST of the story. And now I do know ... wow ... gives a whole fresh POV on them. I wonder what kind of intrigues and trists they had going on behind the scenes...
ArcTan 09-05-07, 09:08 PM	Keith ... there wasn't much shooting in GI Joe ... just at Cobra... LOL There was plenty of *shooting*, just not much *hitting*.
The Dreaming Duck 09-13-07, 04:35 PM	Pardon me for resurrecting... there's an offtopic changeling discussion on another thread and this seemed liked a good place to move it. Key points of the discussion: Will the circumstances of being a changeling drive most changelings to be criminals? If a changeling commoner isn't a criminal, what is he going to do? Will non-changelings ever willingly associate with a changeling? My previous posts have centered on the fact that while you may have slightly more changeling criminals than you get with other races, both because of distrust and ability, this doesn't mean that all changelings will be criminals, any more than all halflings will be burglars or all gnomes will be alchemists or illusionists; a natural ability doesn't have to drive your life. I believe that most changeling commoners will, in fact, follow a craft or profession. Certainly if they are CONCEALING their changeling nature, and merely using Disguise for that purpose, they could be anything at all. If thye aren't concealing their nature, likewise, they can follow any profession. Meanwhile, Rechan posted a long list of ideas for legal professions that could make use of a changeling's racial abilities. Actor, Body Double/Professional Alibi, Celebrity Impersonator, Escort, PI ("You think your husband is sleeping around? Who with? I can test that for you, ma'am"), Model (fashion is one possibility, but artist's model was the suggestion, because the changeling can shift to the form in question), Clown, etc. So, I hope it's not rude to drop this in, but I think the previous points on the thread are very relevant here. (For what it's worth, I'll note that I don't care much for the RoE fluff, but the passer/reality seeker terms are the easiest way to pigeonhole "Changelings who conceal their nature" and "Changelings who don't" for purposes of the discussion.) OK. I SAID "Why would people want to get in contact with a changeling" and you presented the exact opposite scenerio. A changeling coming in contact with a man. Why would I seek out a human? Or a dwarf? I think his point ties to mine. A changeling commoner is still a changeling commoner. In a village with only a single passer, we fear the changeling. In a place like Sharn, there are thousands of reality seekers. There's a changeling representing the changeling district on the city council. Will I SEEK OUT a changeling? No. But I want to buy a sword. I go to the blacksmith, and there's a changeling at the anvil. Do I suddenly run away? What, do I think he's going to steal my identity? He's a blacksmith. He's got a storefront. It's been in his family for three generations. Among other things, you haven't addressed my point that disguise alone isn't the key to all crime... and in fact, relying purely on natural disguise a changeling isn't the master of shapes you seem to think. Aside from the fact that he can't change his clothes, he gets a -2 for impersonating someone outside his race, so we're down to +8. He'll get further penalties for age category and gender, but we'll assume he's sticking with that. But we then have the fact that opponents get a +4 to +10 bonus to Spot checks based on how well they know the person he's trying to impersonate. If I'm a changeling child, I'm not going to find out how easy it is to fool people, because it's not easy to fool people. Even if I'm just changing to another child of the same gender and the person I'm trying to fool merely recognizes the child (as opposed to be a friend or heaven forbid his parent), I'm down six points on my bonus. If the person who looks at me is an elf or half-elf, they've got their racial bonus working for them. All it takes is Alertness, cross-class Spot ranks, or them to know the kid better than "I've seen him before" and I'm in the hole. Not great odds, and I'll get in trouble if I'm caught. But wait! I don't need to impersonate someone specific. I'll get away with it because I'll impersonate someone no one knows. And in this hypothetical village where people are so paranoid of changelings, they won't be equally paranoid of strangers... especially when they know the stranger could be a changeling? Beyond this, if the point is that I could make up an identity so people won't know I committed a crime, humans have been doing that for ages - it's called "Wear a mask" (or a bandana, or a stocking). If I was going to hold up a liquor store, I could grab a ski mask. The fact that the changeling can make his own ski mask doesn't suddenly make him the master criminal. Think of it like this. Changelings aren't like elves and dwarves. They don't have their own culture or community. They grow up in human settlements and usually in lower conditions. I think they're more self serving due to circumstance than to race. This would be a really good time to move to the thread I mentioned above, including as it does this post: (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13596266&postcount=32) (Changelings) don't have culture or history to fall back on - which means that every changeling community will be different... As a first-generation changeling born to (and unwanted by) an Aundairian family, the ways of the third or fourth-generation changelings of Dragonseyes will be completely alien to you; the culture that's been developed by the Gray Tide will be something else entirely. As a changeling you need to determine who you are - a task made all the more difficult by the fact that you are whoever you wish to be. Will you conform to societies' fears and suspicions, using your talents for personal gain? Will you merely hide your true nature? Or will you find a place in the world that accounts for who and what you are? It's not that they have no communities whatsoever - it's that you have a scattering. Some changelings grow up among other changelings; others grow up hidden in fearful human communities. There's almost 170,000 changelings in Breland, and another 40,000 in Aundair, and unlike sexual orientation, this is something that's inherited, so whether or not you hide it from your community, you won't hide it from family. So it's easy to see how changeling communities would arise in larger cities, like Dragonseyes in Sharn. That's really more of an adventurer sort of thing than a commoner proffession. You've really missed the point. You're looking at the name and saying "adventurer", not at what they are DOING. What he's suggesting is jobs that could be done purely with use of disguise. They may not be COMMON professions, but most aren't the sort of things adventurers do in my campaign. He says "Bounty Hunter", but he really means "Process Server". I know process servers; they need to deliver a summons to a particular person. Yes, an expert would be better at it - Knowledge (local), Spot, Hide, Bluff - but if you don't have a dedicated expert, Disguise and a bonus to Bluff and Sense Motive will hold you in good stead. His example of private eye isn't an adventurer at all. It's "I'll go hit on your husband as a hot blonde and see if he bites." "Professional impersonator - can be illegal" - tell that to the millions of Elvis Impersonators out there. For that matter, I know of a professional George Bush impersonator who performed FOR GEORGE BUSH - Karrnath might be different, but I don't see Breland slapping such a person in jail. "Psychologist would require some formal education"... like "Profession: Psychologist", a class skill for commoners. Personally, I'd want my psychologist to have Sense Motive, but with cross-class skills, skill focus, and a 12 Wisdom, he could still get a +8 modifier - quite good. Undercover cop - Again, you miss the point. A community needs police. It doesn't HAVE lots of people with PC classes to fill the role. You're not looking for a guy to fight the crooks - you'll bring in the warriors for that. You're looking for someone to assume the identity of a complete stranger and try to buy illegal substances. The guy who does the sting operation. And one changeling can be a complete stranger as many times as you need him - a hard thing for our cops to do. He doesn't have to be a master detective - though if I were him I'd get a 12 Int, put cross-class ranks in Disguise, Bluff, and Sense Motive, and throw Skill Focus on one of them. Beyond this, you still haven't addressed my point that there's no reason a changeling commoner would have to choose a profession that has anything to do with disguise. A Passer certainly wouldn't; he's trying to hide the fact he's a changeling, and the best way to do that is maintain a single identity and not change. And why should a reality seeker? He doesn't want to hide his identity. Hence, they could be blacksmiths, farmers, whatever... or translators. As long as we're talking about racial abilities, the changelings have another one: Natural Linguist. A first level changeling commoner with a 12 Intelligence could speak a total of seventeen languages (including Common) if he took no other skills. That's a little extreme, but let's try this: Interpreter: Changeling Com 1; CR 0; AL N; Str 8, Dex 9, Con 10 , Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 11; Skills: Disguise +0 (+10), Knowledge (Geography) +5, Knowledge (local) +5, Sense Motive +4; Feats: Educated; Languages: Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Riedran. Great guy to have around in Sharn: Knowledge (local) to help you find your way, Knowledge (geography) to know about the cultures of the people you'll deal with, can converse fluently with everyone from Riedrans to Talentans. He can assume a form that fits wherever it is you want to go - heading down into Malleon's Gate? Good thing you've got a hobgoblin with you. I threw two points into a cross-class rank in Sense Motive to help him keep an eye on things for you;you could easily ditch two more languages get another one. Where would he get the education? Seems EXACTLY like the sort of changeling business I could see appearing in Dragoneyes or its counterparts in Passage or Fairhaven - a legitimate business for reality seekers. Even passers could go there to learn the skills and then take them elsewhere. But from the sound of it they only started coming out and making communitys after the last war so I don't quite know what to say about them... What makes you say that? If it's something in RoE, I thought you hated the fluff; I certainly do. Sharn, on the other hand, has an active changeling community, a number of businesses openly owned by changelings, and changeling on the city council. Somehow I doubt this all happened over the last two years... if so, they managed to get a lot of influence very quickly and there's no suggestion that people are freaking out about it. That's funny cause I live in Canada, which is renouned for being a tolerant society, and if there's even a small SUGGESTION you're gay in this community people will laugh at you. I live in a very red state in the US. I also happen to live in a very liberal town IN that state, and homosexuality is certainly oppenly accepted here. That's the point Hellcow was making on the other thread. There are no global rules. If you grow up in the frightened paranoid village where no one's ever seen a changeling and they believe changelings steal babies, of course you're going to hide it. If you've grown up in a community of 6,000 other changelings, you're going to lead a very different life. And in a nation with 170,000 changelings, I expect that there are villages that are ENTIRELY composed of changelings. Why not? The simplest way to get away from that prejudice is to start your own community. And in that community, will the commoners be con artists? Or will they be farmers, fishermen, and blacksmiths?
DrowBattlemind 09-14-07, 08:15 PM	A long post, but fascinating... I'd like to see more in this vein.
DragoonDarkfire 09-14-07, 11:20 PM	Will the circumstances of being a changeling drive most changelings to be criminals? If a changeling commoner isn't a criminal, what is he going to do? Will non-changelings ever willingly associate with a changeling? My previous posts have centered on the fact that while you may have slightly more changeling criminals than you get with other races, both because of distrust and ability, this doesn't mean that all changelings will be criminals, any more than all halflings will be burglars or all gnomes will be alchemists or illusionists; a natural ability doesn't have to drive your life. I believe that most changeling commoners will, in fact, follow a craft or profession. Certainly if they are CONCEALING their changeling nature, and merely using Disguise for that purpose, they could be anything at all. If thye aren't concealing their nature, likewise, they can follow any profession. Of course but that doesn't change that a changeling will generally be under much more suspicion and prejudice than a normal human. And I'd like to take this moment to say that of COURSE a changeling in the lower section of Sharn isn't going to hide his face or be as afraid as other changelings. Why? Cause that's Sharn. You're already living in a community that already has a hundred or so thieves and murderers. Not to mention that I already said that Sharn is the most progressive community in Eberron thus explaining why most changelings are their. But a changeling in some nice farming village in northern Breland or Aundair? I don't think he'd be as tolerated. Again I accept that changelings are different from their different communities but I still doubt that commoners who don't walk the crime ridden suburbs of metropolises would even know a changeling personally and be aware that he's a changeling. Meanwhile, Rechan posted a long list of ideas for legal professions that could make use of a changeling's racial abilities. Actor, Body Double/Professional Alibi, Celebrity Impersonator, Escort, PI ("You think your husband is sleeping around? Who with? I can test that for you, ma'am"), Model (fashion is one possibility, but artist's model was the suggestion, because the changeling can shift to the form in question), Clown, etc. Most of those were actually variations of my suggestion for actor or criminal or professions that really only support PC's and important NPC's. So, I hope it's not rude to drop this in, but I think the previous points on the thread are very relevant here. (For what it's worth, I'll note that I don't care much for the RoE fluff, but the passer/reality seeker terms are the easiest way to pigeonhole "Changelings who conceal their nature" and "Changelings who don't" for purposes of the discussion.) Personally I'm really hating this crap about Races of Eberron because the book essentially said "There are three different kinds of changelings. Pick one." and that was it. Cannon doesn't mean crap when the fluff presented is shoddy or half arsed. Why would I seek out a human? Or a dwarf? I think his point ties to mine. A changeling commoner is still a changeling commoner. In a village with only a single passer, we fear the changeling. In a place like Sharn, there are thousands of reality seekers. There's a changeling representing the changeling district on the city council. Will I SEEK OUT a changeling? No. But I want to buy a sword. I go to the blacksmith, and there's a changeling at the anvil. Do I suddenly run away? What, do I think he's going to steal my identity? He's a blacksmith. He's got a storefront. It's been in his family for three generations. Certainly but the question remains greatly on first impressions. Does the changeling Bob get better customers than the other blacksmith Earl because he's a changeling? Probably not. If Bob's skill were to far surpass Earl then it'd be far more likely (such as Bob being an Artificer and Earl being an expert) but what about the fact that both are of about the same skill? Really this is once again a society question and changelings disposition toward "lesser civilized urban areas" would most likely cause a good majority of them to be self serving or possibly even cruel in that regard. Of course variations exist (such as PC's) but as a whole I'd say changelings neutral outlook and selfish attitude make them none to popular with the other races. Among other things, you haven't addressed my point that disguise alone isn't the key to all crime... and in fact, relying purely on natural disguise a changeling isn't the master of shapes you seem to think.[/QUOTE] Of course. But there's a difference between breaking into the kings vault and stealing the crown jewels and picking someone's pocket. Aside from the fact that he can't change his clothes, he gets a -2 for impersonating someone outside his race, so we're down to +8. He'll get further penalties for age category and gender, but we'll assume he's sticking with that. But we then have the fact that opponents get a +4 to +10 bonus to Spot checks based on how well they know the person he's trying to impersonate. Yea that's why Changelings probably would create their own identity and persona rather than trying to impersonate someone specific. If I'm a changeling child, I'm not going to find out how easy it is to fool people, because it's not easy to fool people. Then you learn from that mistake and realize that you can still easily fool people to believe you're a human or elf or some other more traditionally accepted race. Even if I'm just changing to another child of the same gender and the person I'm trying to fool merely recognizes the child (as opposed to be a friend or heaven forbid his parent), I'm down six points on my bonus. If the person who looks at me is an elf or half-elf, they've got their racial bonus working for them. All it takes is Alertness, cross-class Spot ranks, or them to know the kid better than "I've seen him before" and I'm in the hole. Not great odds, and I'll get in trouble if I'm caught. Yea that's why impersonating someone specific is a lot harder than trying to look unassuming. But wait! I don't need to impersonate someone specific. I'll get away with it because I'll impersonate someone no one knows. And in this hypothetical village where people are so paranoid of changelings, they won't be equally paranoid of strangers... especially when they know the stranger could be a changeling? Beyond this, if the point is that I could make up an identity so people won't know I committed a crime, humans have been doing that for ages - it's called "Wear a mask" (or a bandana, or a stocking). If I was going to hold up a liquor store, I could grab a ski mask. The fact that the changeling can make his own ski mask doesn't suddenly make him the master criminal. Difference is. When a person comes in with a ski mask you automatically get suspicious of him. He's hiding something underneath it from you and it's obvious that he's intentionally hiding something from you. Changelings on the other hand have a mask that looks exactly like a human face and you couldn't tell he was hiding something from you just by looking at him. Only on a superbly close inspection could you actually start to suspect something and then what do you do? Do you jump out and shout "HEY THIS GUY'S A CHANGELING!" do you have any proof? Are you gonna keep saying it? Because frankly you can look like a madman quite easily that way. It's not that they have no communities whatsoever - it's that you have a scattering. Some changelings grow up among other changelings; others grow up hidden in fearful human communities. There's almost 170,000 changelings in Breland, and another 40,000 in Aundair, and unlike sexual orientation, this is something that's inherited, so whether or not you hide it from your community, you won't hide it from family. So it's easy to see how changeling communities would arise in larger cities, like Dragonseyes in Sharn. Works naturally but as I was saying. A changeling growing up in changeling communities will naturally have little fear of his own face from the changelings that he has grown to trust (actually doesn't that debunk Rechan's post about changelings being prejudice against themselves?) but humans are much more widespread than Changelings and while the changelings of Sharn or Fairhaven that have grown up among their own kind might not have much a reason to hide their race. Humans in smaller or further settlements would be far less likely to know a changeling personally. You've really missed the point. You're looking at the name and saying "adventurer", not at what they are DOING. What he's suggesting is jobs that could be done purely with use of disguise. They may not be COMMON professions, but most aren't the sort of things adventurers do in my campaign. Ummm... first you say that disguise isn't that useful now you're saying disguise can be used for all these things outside of adventuring? I don't understand. His example of private eye isn't an adventurer at all. It's "I'll go hit on your husband as a hot blonde and see if he bites." Well it's definitely something but this doesn't exactly coincide with your argument against the usefulness of disguise. "Professional impersonator - can be illegal" - tell that to the millions of Elvis Impersonators out there. I said CAN be. Read my text more carefully. For that matter, I know of a professional George Bush impersonator who performed FOR GEORGE BUSH - Karrnath might be different, but I don't see Breland slapping such a person in jail. So an actor... hmmm.... I never said that before. "Psychologist would require some formal education"... like "Profession: Psychologist", a class skill for commoners. Personally, I'd want my psychologist to have Sense Motive, but with cross-class skills, skill focus, and a 12 Wisdom, he could still get a +8 modifier - quite good. Psychologist with sense motive? Do you even understand what psychology is? Psychology is listening to people's problems and then prescribing proper treatment for them. You don't learn how to treat patients suffering from depression or trauma by learning when someone is lieing to you. Sense motive tells you what peoples surface thoughts and ideas are. Physchology is delving into the subconscious mind. Undercover cop - Again, you miss the point. A community needs police. It doesn't HAVE lots of people with PC classes to fill the role. You're not looking for a guy to fight the crooks - you'll bring in the warriors for that. You're looking for someone to assume the identity of a complete stranger and try to buy illegal substances. Which can be done with nearly anyone but I see your point. Beyond this, you still haven't addressed my point that there's no reason a changeling commoner would have to choose a profession that has anything to do with disguise. No indeed he wouldn't. As much a dwarf can be a baker despite the race's bonus to craft checks and stonecunning. It isn't so much a norm or rule as leaning in a particular direction. A Passer certainly wouldn't; he's trying to hide the fact he's a changeling, and the best way to do that is maintain a single identity and not change. And why should a reality seeker? He doesn't want to hide his identity. Hence, they could be blacksmiths, farmers, whatever... or translators. As long as we're talking about racial abilities, the changelings have another one: Natural Linguist. A first level changeling commoner with a 12 Intelligence could speak a total of seventeen languages (including Common) if he took no other skills. That's a little extreme, but let's try this: Interpreter: Changeling Com 1; CR 0; AL N; Str 8, Dex 9, Con 10 , Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 11; Skills: Disguise +0 (+10), Knowledge (Geography) +5, Knowledge (local) +5, Sense Motive +4; Feats: Educated; Languages: Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Riedran. Great guy to have around in Sharn: Knowledge (local) to help you find your way, Knowledge (geography) to know about the cultures of the people you'll deal with, can converse fluently with everyone from Riedrans to Talentans. He can assume a form that fits wherever it is you want to go - heading down into Malleon's Gate? Good thing you've got a hobgoblin with you. I threw two points into a cross-class rank in Sense Motive to help him keep an eye on things for you;you could easily ditch two more languages get another one. Where would he get the education? Seems EXACTLY like the sort of changeling business I could see appearing in Dragoneyes or its counterparts in Passage or Fairhaven - a legitimate business for reality seekers. Even passers could go there to learn the skills and then take them elsewhere. Good. You spent 3 paragraphs explaining to me what I already knew. A changeling adopting ligament business is hardly something I would think unusual. That doesn't change that the race is still treated with suspicion and even fear and hostility (hostility IS extreme but possible) in some countries and it can be hard for a person to run a ligament business with these social pressures. What makes you say that? If it's something in RoE, I thought you hated the fluff; I certainly do. Glad we can agree and just ditch it. That was more for Rechans "IT'S IN THE BOOKS ERGO IT'S LAW" logic. I live in a very red state in the US. I also happen to live in a very liberal town IN that state, and homosexuality is certainly oppenly accepted here. Yea I think this is one of the few redneck towns in Canada. That's the point Hellcow was making on the other thread. There are no global rules. If you grow up in the frightened paranoid village where no one's ever seen a changeling and they believe changelings steal babies, of course you're going to hide it. If you've grown up in a community of 6,000 other changelings, you're going to lead a very different life. Yes we agree. The slice of life Eberron topic was concerning ALL life so I was pointing out one possibility that humans might have about changelings. Not suggesting that it was the main rule about them. And in a nation with 170,000 changelings, I expect that there are villages that are ENTIRELY composed of changelings. Why not? The simplest way to get away from that prejudice is to start your own community. Makes perfect sense. But might get a bit confusing for travelers and can also have to deal with a lack of trading from other towns. And in that community, will the commoners be con artists? Or will they be farmers, fishermen, and blacksmiths? Of course many of the latter. Of course the few of the former to make money off the latter.
The Dreaming Duck 09-15-07, 12:59 AM	Of course but that doesn't change that a changeling will generally be under much more suspicion and prejudice than a normal human. Let me start by saying that I don't disagree. If this is the only point of contention, there's no argument. I'm against the concept that changelings can't be trusted, couldn't hold normal jobs, and are somehow as a race pigeonholed into crime. Some may take this path, but hardly all. If I've taken a few heated statements and read too much into them, please excuse my long, pedantic responses. ;) Not to mention that I already said that Sharn is the most progressive community in Eberron thus explaining why most changelings are their. What do you mean by this? There's around 6,000 changelings in Sharn. There's around 170,000 changelings in Breland. Sure, I expect that you won't get that NUMBER of changelings anywhere else, because so other single city is as large as Sharn. But I'd assume that other large Brelish cities have a similar percentage of changelings. Otherwise, where do those other 164,000 end up? But a changeling in some nice farming village in northern Breland or Aundair? I don't think he'd be as tolerated. But here's the thing. There's a lot of changelings in Breland. If I'm the changeling who grows up in L'il Brelish Farming Village, I won't make my living as a con artist or pickpocket, because there's no living to be made as a con artist or pickpocket; the population's too small, and everyone knows everyone. Which means I'll have to make my living as a farmer or fisherman, or whatever*. Maybe I started out as a passer, but two generations down the line, my descendents decided to say "Hey, you know us? The Millers? pillars of the community for the last hundred years? Well, we're changelings, and we're tired of hiding it." Family's never done anything bad aside from concealing their race; on the contrary, they've been the town's millers for a century. My point is that in a nation like Karrnath or Thrane, there are almost no changelings. There, I accept your premise that most changelings will be hidden outsiders who use their abilities to survive, and that there will therefore be a strong distrust of changelings. But in Breland, there's quite a lot of changelings. Which means decent odds of changeling families and changelings who are upstanding members of a community and communities where people don't associate changelings with crime. If we've lived in l'il Brelish Village A our entire lives, and the only changelings we've ever met our the Millers, why would we conclude changelings are pickpockets? The Millers are pillars of the community. I think you're going to get very different reactions based on nation, just as in the US you get broadly different reactions to various ethnicities based on states. In some states you're far more likely to get ethnic profiling and prejudice against group X, because of the history of that region; where the state across the country considers such behavior close-minded and provincial. So I'd expect Karrns and Thranes to on the whole be far more paranoid about shifters than Brelish and Aundairians, because they simply aren't used to dealing with non-criminal changelings. * Having said all this, it does occur to me that this does lend itself to the wandering tinker/drifter sort of criminal, which is an easy role for the changeling and one that can certainly give changelings a bad name across the land. I'm simply addressing the changeling who wants roots. Again I accept that changelings are different from their different communities but I still doubt that commoners who don't walk the crime ridden suburbs of metropolises would even know a changeling personally and be aware that he's a changeling. We should probably just agree to disagree on this one; it seems like a DM thing to me. I agree that you'd have more "changeling-free' communities, but I can see lots of reasons for a changeling to want to NOT conceal his identity. Among others, disguise self is lost if you go unconscious, which could be because you sleep, get heatstroke, get in a brawl, or whatever. If you base your life around a lie that can be completely broken when you slip and hit your head - that's a lot more fragile than sexual orientation. More than that, it's having to live a every day. If you live in a nation where you have no choice, sure. The changeling in Karrnath probably doesn't have much in the way of alternatives. But I don't see that being the case in Breland. Most of those were actually variations of my suggestion for actor or criminal or professions that really only support PC's and important NPC's. Why does "actor" only support PCs or important NPCs? I've never had a PC decide that he wants to be the level of actor who entertains at children's parties or does tricks on the street corner, but a changeling could be good at either. Actors don't have to be the big hollywood stars; you also get the dinner theater and improv comedy. That's the point of "professional impersonator" - not "impersonation of someone for criminal intent" (which is a crime under the code of Galifar), but "impersonation of someone for comedic intent or parody." Again, I can absolutely see a changeling busker out on the sidewalk making funny faces and impersonating famous people for coppers. He's not going to try to fool anyone into thinking he's Boranel; he'll just do Boranel's face, put on a crummy crown, and make a funny speech designed to appeal to the burgeoning anti-monarchists - big laughs, throw a copper in the hat. This is hardly PC stuff; it's a trivial way to use your disguise ability to make some coin in spite of a lack of advanced skills. If you're just saying that it could ALSO be used for criminal purposes, sure, I completely agree - but at that point I think you'd want Expert or Rogue skills backing you up. Personally I'm really hating this crap about Races of Eberron because the book essentially said "There are three different kinds of changelings. Pick one." and that was it. Cannon doesn't mean crap when the fluff presented is shoddy or half arsed. So throw it out. I've used the terms, but I don't play with it. Rechan may care about it, but I don't consider it relevant to the discussion. I think it's relevant that a changeling may choose to hide his identity or may prefer to NOT hide his identity and to be who he actually is; but I think it's only logical to assume that the "Out" Millers I described above might adopt human disguises when business takes them through Karrnath. They're people living their lives, and people follow all sorts of paths as the need strikes. Certainly but the question remains greatly on first impressions. Does the changeling Bob get better customers than the other blacksmith Earl because he's a changeling? Probably not. No, but my question is that, when you get down to it, why would he get worse? Why would you care if your miller is a changeling, if the millers in the town have always been changelings? How far does this go? Do I care if he's a drow/warforged/kalashtar/elf/gnome/whatever? D&D is a Mos Eisley Cantina. In a completely human town, then sure, the lone changeling will have trouble, but he at least has the option of pretending to be human. The halfling doesn't, and we all no halflings are burglars. I certainly wouldn't hire a halfling handyman - don't let one of those guys anywhere near my house. You may not be arguing this point, but I'm just saying that in areas with lots of races, I don't see that the changeling blacksmith is going to lose business when he's set up against, say, a gnome blacksmith. The changeling guy who does odd jobs? People may conclude that he's shift and probably a crook. But if he's established in an honest profession and in a community that already has multiple nonhuman races, I don't see it making much of a difference. I do agree that especially in a place with a low changeling population, he'll have a lot more trouble getting an honest business established, because he's a changeling. But once he breaks in, I think he could do OK. Really this is once again a society question... Certainly, which is why I'm saying it would vary by society. All of the Five Nations would be quite different from one another, and within each nation you'd also have a spectrum. I'd expect Breland to have the most communities with a significant population of open changelings, and thus a more tolerant attitude overall because people have encountered changelings who aren't thieves or crooks. While in Thrane and Karrnath they'd be almost unknown and highly suspected. Of course. But there's a difference between breaking into the kings vault and stealing the crown jewels and picking someone's pocket. But a changeling commoner is a terrible pickpocket. Pickpocket requires Sleight of Hand, and a changeling commoner's not going to have anywhere near a high enough skill to pull it off. Furthermore, if you're a good pickpocket you won't be noticed at all, so all you need is nondescript appearance. If you mean more pursesnatcher, if you're letting people get a really good look at your face as a pursesnatcher, you're already doing something wrong; clothing is critical (which changelings can't shift) and, of course, running, which any race with a 30" movement can handle. I think changelings make great con artists, but for that you really want an expert, not a commoner. (On the other hand, I can see the point that as a CHANGELING pursesnatcher I'd WANT to let people get a look at my fake face... but for that very reason I'd expect people on the streets of Eberron to pay a lot of attention to clothes.) Yea that's why Changelings probably would create their own identity and persona rather than trying to impersonate someone specific. Agreed. And that's great when we're just trying to live quiet, peaceful lives in the village being farmers, milkmaids, etc. If I'm a changeling in the small village, it's not much of a help for crime because they'll just be suspicious of strangers. Ummm... first you say that disguise isn't that useful now you're saying disguise can be used for all these things outside of adventuring? I don't understand. Not at all. I think disguise has many uses. It's a fun thing to have, and it has many professional applications and a lot of potential for purely social and cultural applications. I was reacting to the concepts "Disguise few little legal uses" and "a +10 Disguise predisposes you to a life of crime", neither of which I believe to be true. Psychologist with sense motive? Sense motive tells you what peoples surface thoughts and ideas are. Physchology is delving into the subconscious mind. My apologies. You're using a far narrower interpretation of Sense Motive than I am. I'm working off of the description that Sense Motive "represents sensitivity to the body language, social habits, and mannerisms of others "(PHB); as a result, in my campaign I use it for far more things than just "is this guy lying?" To the best of my knowledge, it's the closest thing D&D has to a skill that represents delving into the subconscious mind. Out of curiousity, what WOULD you use to represent a psychologist in D&D? I'd do Diplomacy (helping the patient feel at ease, talking out issues); Profession/Psychologist (representing the professional and educational elements not covered by other skills), and Sense Motive (for delving into the subconscious mind - with Pro: Psychology helping you interpret the significance of your deductions). Good. You spent 3 paragraphs explaining to me what I already knew. No offense, but if you knew, why did you ask for it? You said "Show me an honest changeling commoner" - well, there is one. As for the stat block, I didn't actually do it for you - I did it because I thought it was interesting. Yes, "Linguist" sums up the idea with a single word; I wanted to see what a linguist/guide character could actually be like. That doesn't change that the race is still treated with suspicion and even fear and hostility (hostility IS extreme but possible) in some countries and it can be hard for a person to run a ligament business with these social pressures. I just want to restate that I agree with all of these points. I think that there are many countires where a changling will have a very hard time being accepted publically, and that even in more tolerant communities they may still have prejudice, no matter how hard people try to rationalize it away. People fear things that are creepy and different. I'm just trying to make two points: that there may be SOME communities where changelings are accepted, and that even in communities where there aren't, commoners don't have to resort to crime - if they are willing to conceal their race in order to avoid the prejudice. The big advantage they always have is that they CAN conceal their race (and thereby gain the opportunity to pursue an honest living), which warforged, goblins, and others can't do. Glad we can agree and just ditch it. Consider it ditched. Makes perfect sense. But might get a bit confusing for travelers and can also have to deal with a lack of trading from other towns. I think the big question is whether they hide it or not. Is it a Potemkin Village/Stepford Wives scenario - the perfect community, but they don't want you to move there - or do they flat out say "Welcome to changelingville, one-shape." Either way, I only see such a community flourishing somewhere with a high changeling population (Breland), and I'd expect it to split off from a larger community where changelings are accepted. So rather than setting up shop in Weaintneverseenachangeling County, you'd set up a village not far from (for example) Sharn, where you can trade with the people who are already comfortable doing business with Dragonseyes. Sure wouldn't be common, but it's got lots of interesting story hooks.
Aseran 09-15-07, 06:26 AM	Well, I'll tell you why I think Changelings are cool. A few hours ago, I actually didn't think much of them. We just spent tonight brainstorming character ideas for a new Eberron game. We're starting at level 7. One player wanted to roll a changeling and use psionics. I'm the DM for this game, I said go for it. So a couple hours of random-as-hell ideas later, we now have in our hands a Changeling Wizard 3/Psion(Egoist) 3/Cerebremancer 1. He's a shapeshifting repository of absurd amounts of psychic and arcane goodness, whom we've established is actually a professor at Morgrave University, lecturing students on both magic and psionics and their practical applications in all things. An unassuming, bookish fellow, he's currently on holiday, taking some time away from the university campus to indulge in some "field research", we're calling it. Now, mechanically, this guy has access to a metric ton of magic and psionics, through combining effects of various spells and manifestations he's well on his way to being able to change his form in absolutely phenomenal ways and spin material out of thin air in a way that makes the House Cannith artificer in the party envious. He's sure to come in very useful, and the guy roleplaying him is very good, so I'm looking forward to seeing how this adventure goes. That's my anecdote on the subject. I've got a whole lot of new ideas, now, on how a changeling can make a hell of an interesting character.
The Dreaming Duck 09-15-07, 04:09 PM	Sharn is the most progressive community in Eberron thus explaining why most changelings are their. I was thinking about this again, and the weird thing is that statistically it can't be true. Six thousand changelings in one place is more that you get elsewhere because of the size of the city. However, changelings only make up 3% of the population of Sharn... while they are 4% of the population of Breland. So technically, you're MORE likely to encounter a changeling elsewhere... even if not as many at once. By the numbers, in Breland, one in every twenty-five people is a changeling; even in a hamlet of 100, you are likely to have a four-person changeling family. While I think the RoE idea that "reality seekers" is somehow a new philosophy doesn't make much sense (given that the business in Sharn and such suggest that there have been changelings who prefer not to disguise their natue for a while), it does make sense that the changelings of Breland would be more accepted now that they were a hundred years ago - because we ARE dealing with 4% of the population, and it's a population that's been at war. Think about the minorities one sees in WWII movies. If you were making Brelish Last War movies, every one would probably have a half-elf ("My race has never had a home, but my family has - Breland!"), a gnome (maybe with ties to Zilargo), and a changeling - a shifty guy who nonetheless surprises everyone when he doesn the right thing. He's the punk from the Bronx. Even those who hide their identity - when Jimmy the blacksmith dies trying to protect his village and his shop and reverts to his true state, at least some will say "He may have been a changeling, but he fought for Breland." So it would be a good time for changelings TO reveal themselves, to say "I know you don't trust my kind, but we're not the threat: the Thranes are. And I want to be a part of the fight." Now, changelings would also have the ability to dodge the draft, slip away, and all that. I'm sure many shifty ones would. But again, given the numbers, you will have changeling blacksmiths and farmers. You'll have changelings who love their families and communites, and who will want to protect them. AND, that brings us to another "D'uh" use for disguise - spies. Sure, you really want experts/rogues to do the HARD stuff, but making yourself into a camp follower or refugee isn't that hard, and would let you scout out the scene. Plus, the camp follower lets that pre-trained changeling prostitute put his/her pre-existing skills to use for the country. So, I'd see something like (stat block below) Camp Follower (spy): Changeling Com 1; CR 0; AL N; Str 8, Dex 9, Con 10 , Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 13; Skills: Bluff +8, Disguise +1 (+11), Listen +4, Profession (Prostitute) +4, Sense Motive +2; Feats: Skill Focus (Bluff); Languages: Common, one of Elven, Gnome, or Goblin. If you don't think Prostitute calls for a Profession skill, you could change it to Spot; likewise, you could trade Listen for Spot. As is, it's someone who can hide in plain side (if they aren't trying to specifically impersonate someone known), tell a convincing story, and listen in to conversations. dump Prostitute for Spot and you've got good eyes and ears, while spinning a very convincing tale that you're a refugee from Shadukar (or wherever). This does also make a good case for the changeling commoner con artist, but setting aside Disguise, a human commoner can match the Bluff ranks by using his racial bonus feat on Persuasive, and he has more skill points to put elsewhere (cross-class in Hide, perhaps). Lots of con artists in our world do fine without disguise - so it's not that changelings are going to be better con artists (in terms of level of Bluff), it's that they will be able to run different styles of con. And I admit, it's interesting to think of the crazy long cons a changeling could pull off. My whole point is that changelings in Karrnath and Thrane (and Zilargo, the Shadow Marches, Q'barra, the Eldeen Reaches, and Darguun) are rare and likely feared and distrusted as a result. But given the numbers of changelings in Breland and the fact that at least some probably fought in the war, I think you will see a broader tolerance for them in the nation. As others have said, if you're from Vathirond, I'm betting you'd take the company of a Brelish changeling over that of a Thrane any day of the week. Anyhow, unless there are a significant number of all-changeling communities to suck up the population, in Breland any village is likely to have one or more changeling families... as opposed to Thrane or Karrnath, where they aren't even on the population chart. In Thrane, you can have a city of 5,000 with possibly a single changeling in it; in Breland there's likely to be a 200-person changeling community there, a mini-Dragonseyes (whether they reveal their true nature or not). In Aundair, the other changeling center of T5N, there might be 100 changelings in the city - not as many, but still enough to be significant. So I think the "Changeling Terror" would be strong in most places... but I really think there's a strong case for the Brelish having a very different attitude towards changelings than most others... and for Brelish changelings to lead very different lives from their couterparts elsewhere. Just like minority groups in the US deal with radicially different levels of prejudice and opportunity depending where they are.
Hellcow 09-15-07, 04:40 PM	By the numbers, in Breland, one in every twenty-five people is a changeling; even in a hamlet of 100, you are likely to have a four-person changeling family. I really think there's a strong case for the Brelish having a very different attitude towards changelings than most others... and for Brelish changelings to lead very different lives from their couterparts elsewhere. Good analysis. This is one of the reasons I don't hold to the blanket "all changelings are fully dedicated to one to three philosophies" either; the life of a changeling who lives in a 40-person changeling community in Breland is likely to be very different from that of the lone changeling in Karrnath, and it SHOULD produce different traditions. In Breland, you will have established changeling communities that can create opportunties for members of their families... and in my opinion, it would be easier for changelings to operate openly, because they just aren't as unknown. If you went to Morgrave, your roommate may have been a changeling, or you played with a changeling as a child, or you discovered your coworker was a changeling when he was drunk, or what have you. There's just more of them around, and the Brelish have worked with them, fought with them, and so on. You'll still get people who don't trust them - your statement that the changeling would be "the shifty guy who overcomes distrust" is logical - but you'll also find people who say "Yeah, Bill's a changeling. So what?" Meanwhile, in the nations where changelings are numbered in the one-in-a-thousand, you will get more fear. Furthermore, this is something else that is likely to color public opinion about BRELAND, which is after all already seen as a place with somewhat loose morals and the like. A Karrn would say "It's a horrible place. No discipline... and there was a CHANGELING barmaid at the tavern! I tell you, I made sure to check my purse after I left there. She's probably turning tricks on the side." So even though changelings in Breland are actually less likely to HAVE to turn to crime - given the numbers, I would expect lots of changelings to make honest livings in Breland and many to live openly... I think foreigners would say "Of course there's a lot of changelings in Breland. It's Breland. They're criminals, they'll thrive there." National attitude towards race is an interesting thing. In many nations you are likely to get the "Better a Thranish X than a Brelish Y" maxim. But it is the case that Breland has a fair number of goblins and changelings, but that many Brelish outside of Sharn have never seen a shifter; that Karrnath has essentially no gnomes outside of House Sivis (or changelings or shifters or goblins); and that Thrane is even more racially isolated than Karrnath. There's more changelings in Breland than halflings or elves (taken separately) in Thrane. People may not automatically fear and distrust shfters, but Aundair is the only one of the Five Nations where shifters are a statistically significant part of the population; even in Breland, seeing shifters is going to be one of the exotic things for the farmer who goes to Sharn. This doesn't have to equate to prejudice, but it can certainly translate to confusion, like people who think that all shifters can grow sharp teeth or that they can talk to dogs. Despite all this, I hold to my earlier statement that each changeling community is likely to be different. Both Starilaskur and Wroat have established groups of changelings, but that doesn't mean that they have strong ties or feel some sense of racial loyalty that goes beyond their community. Some might, certainly; the Cabinet of Faces is a group that puts changeling identity above nation. But it's not a given, and you may have quite different changeling "cultures" in Wroat and Vathirond.
Jewelprotector 09-15-07, 09:40 PM	What have I done...? I admit, the passionate posts on this page took me a little aback. But they were fascinating looks at many ideas about the changelings...which is, I suppose, an accurate representation of the changelings' many faces. I have done a complete 180 about the race; while I won't have an opportunity to play one for a while, they're now a possibility to ponder for the next Eberron campaign we run. And not only do I have a much firmer grasp of how to use them as NPC's, this thread had also given me some ideas for non-changeling races with similar abilities in other games...:schemes: :evillaugh
Rechan 09-16-07, 01:46 AM	For those still interested in other changeling personalities and possibilities, there are two (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D870297) other threads (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D869819) on the matter. I try hard to be real careful with changelings in my game, to avoid the Doppelganger effect. The "It's a changeling; there MUST be a double cross/con around the corner!" metagame think that PCs will do. In my game, the PCs have went to a party that had two changelings in glamor weave hired as "Living statue"; they'd move and change appearances in a choreographed manner, so that one minute it was two fencers locked in a clashing pose, and the next it's two lovers still in a dance. A noblewoman had picked up a changeling at a brothel, hired her as a maid, and paid her extra to pose as herself to entertain her husband while the noblewoman went stepping out with her man on the side (she had the changeling pose as her at the same party while she murdered someone, but that's a side-note). There has also been a very flamboyant changeling painter whose characteristics change with his mood. In another campiagn I'm going to run, a changeling is going to be part of some Cyrian refugees the PCs are moving to a new base. He is going to stand on a chair and flat out announce "Hey, I'm a changeling, don't string me up later thinking I'm a monster infiltrating the camp." It's also important to note that Changelings aren't overtly special. Simply because in Eberron, a Hat of Disguise is just 2,000gp away. Disguise Self is a 1st level spell. Spellcasters aren't rare. So anybody can Play the disguise game. So I think more people would be on the lookout for that sort of thing.
AkumaDaimyo 09-16-07, 07:01 PM	Clearly you haven't seen the deleted scenes. I can see why they cut them for the kiddie audience! Scarlett gives the whole "Look both ways before crossing the road... now you know... and knowing's half the battle" schtick. Then Snake Eyes tosses a grenade into the window of a drunk driver's car. And that's... the REST of the story. So when will there be a GI JOE d20? I WANT ONE! THIS I COMMAND! *Serpentor voice*
davethebrave371 10-05-07, 04:49 PM	It's also important to note that Changelings aren't overtly special. Simply because in Eberron, a Hat of Disguise is just 2,000gp away. Disguise Self is a 1st level spell. Spellcasters aren't rare. So anybody can Play the disguise game. So I think more people would be on the lookout for that sort of thing. 2000 gp would take your average commoner about 400 years to save up, and your average middle class (which includes, according to the ECS, low level adventurers) 10 years, and one in ten people who are wealthy might be able to afford it after a year. That's if they saved up everything aside from rent and food. And spellcasters are almost universally PC classes, which comprise 10% of the population at most.
AkumaDaimyo 10-05-07, 04:52 PM	It helps to know the setting. This isnt FR where gold and magical items fall from the sky. :P
Rechan 10-06-07, 07:15 PM	2000 gp would take your average commoner about 400 years to save up, and your average middle class (which includes, according to the ECS, low level adventurers) 10 years, and one in ten people who are wealthy might be able to afford it after a year. That's if they saved up everything aside from rent and food. And spellcasters are almost universally PC classes, which comprise 10% of the population at most. Source please? I've hunted through the DMG and could not find 'NPC wealth statistics'. So I can only assume that NPCs use the same wealth per level as PCs. PCs of at least 3rd level can afford a Hat o' Disguise. But maybe that's just my playstyle. I don't nickle and dime PCs wealth to death, subtracting a percentage of them daily, making them count their rations (Unless they're trapped somewhere they might start to starve todeath), count gold piece per arrow, and so on. That's just not exciting at all.
davethebrave371 10-06-07, 07:34 PM	p. 132 of the ECS states what they have on hand at any given time. It doesn't really say how much they make per year, but I think I assumed what they had on hand at any given time must have been it, since if they made that per day, the poor folk would be ridiculously rich by year's end given the price of food and housing. You wouldn't have poor people if that were the case. Also, and this isn't from Eberron specifically, someone on the boards figured out that a silver piece is the equivalent of about five to ten dollars US, including inflation and all that. Even including inflation, peasants in the mid to late 1600s (the closest comparable historical period to Eberron, minus the 1800s innovations) were making what amounted to fifty dollars US in today's money per year at best. So, even assuming a more optimistic tack, 40 silver pieces per year is still pretty steep.
AkumaDaimyo 10-06-07, 07:38 PM	Do people even READ the Eberron books or do they just look at them like things in a museum that you dont touch? :rolleyes:
davethebrave371 10-06-07, 07:46 PM	I'm not sure what you mean, AD?
The Dreaming Duck 10-06-07, 10:28 PM	I've hunted through the DMG and could not find 'NPC wealth statistics'. There's actually another active thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=934210) on the topic on these boards. The most relevant bit from the DMG is page 105, which provides the salaries of hirelings. An unskilled laborer makes 1 sp/day; this can presumably be seen as Eberron's answer to minimum wage. You then have daily rates for a variety of professions, ranging from general craftsperson (3 sp/day), an artisan (6 sp/day), or a lawyer (1 gp/day). Then we have Sharn: City of Towers. This does a number of things. First, on page 148, we get the prices charged by House Deneith for its mercenaries... which are actually slightly lower than page 105 of the DMG charges for mercenaries. On page 23 of Sharn, we get the prices of housing. Purchasing a "poor" residence in Sharn will run 100-400 gp; an "average" residence runs 1,500 - 6,000 gp; and an upscale residence runs 5,000 - 40,000 gp. So essentially, you can buy a decent house for the same price as a hat of disguise. A +5 sword (or +4 flaming sword or +3 flaming burst sword) is more expensive than the priciest manor in Sharn - and given that Sharn is the NYC of Eberron, translate that into the most expensive house in NYC or Hollywood and you're on the right track. The craftsman making 3 sp/day ends up making about 100 gp/year before expenses (remember Eberron's 48-week year), assuming he works seven days a week; give him weekends off and it becomes 72 gp/year. We don't know the tax rate of Eberron, but war usually raises taxes, and page 140 of the DMG suggests that taxes may eat up 1/5th of a character's wealth... so that brings us to 80 gp or 58 gp. Assume that half of that gets eaten up by necessary expenses - family, food - and we end up with somewhere between 25-40 gp annually. That's actually quite a decent sum; a few years and you can buy a crappy place of your own in Sharn. At 1 gp/day, the barrister or gold blade makes a little more than three times that amount... enough to buy an "average" house on a 15-year mortgage. Then you have successful adventurers, nobles, dragonmarked barons, and the like - who have the same relationship to the rest of the world that professional sports stars, movie actors, pop stars, and company CEOs have to the rest of us. They can afford all these crazy things. So as I see it, a hat of disguise is like a $90,000 sportscar. For the guy who works at McDonald's, it's not even an option. For the guy with a decent job, it's an investment of years of his salary... maybe more important than a nicer house, if it's always been his dream, but not trivial. And for Bill Gates, it's all in an afternoon. (I'll note that the DMG table is presumably the baseline salary - one can assume a cook at the Oaks in Sharn gets paid far better than a cook at the Commons. But it's still a general foundation.)
Rechan 10-08-07, 08:19 AM	Also, and this isn't from Eberron specifically, someone on the boards figured out that a silver piece is the equivalent of about five to ten dollars US, including inflation and all that. Even including inflation, peasants in the mid to late 1600s (the closest comparable historical period to Eberron, minus the 1800s innovations) were making what amounted to fifty dollars US in today's money per year at best. So, even assuming a more optimistic tack, 40 silver pieces per year is still pretty steep. Trust me, trying to turn the D&D wealth into an economy is just a headache and a half. Gold in the game is used as a reward to allow PCs to buy equipment. Trying to stretch it beyond its set is a losing battle.
Remmster 10-08-07, 10:14 AM	Yeah, so, this was on changelings, not exchange rates, right? (Still, the point a great many people seem to miss that the "economy" of roleplaying games is, and should be, centered around player characters. This is roleplaying, not a simulation in ecology, demographics and what not. Sure, settings should be plausible and "realistic/logical" to a degree, but you gotta stop at one point, geez) "Anyway, changelings? I have a take on changelings, but I don't know if I will live the day to see the responses to this. What I know is dangerous, and passing along this knowledge might get me into trouble. By the numbers, in Breland, one in every twenty-five people is a changeling; even in a hamlet of 100, you are likely to have a four-person changeling family. Furthermore, this is something else that is likely to color public opinion about BRELAND, which is after all already seen as a place with somewhat loose morals and the like. Trust no one! Hellcow only wants to make us think that Breland is a nice place! Listen carefully! Lose morals and the like! The reason because there are so statistically many changelings in Breland is because Breland is breeding them in secret. Old Boranel might not know, but those in favor of the parliament don't trust monarchs. They've discovered the power behind creatures who can pass as anyone. It was just a matter of time to exploit the nature of changelings for political espionage on a bigger scale, to create a vast number of changelings agents, replacements, impersonators and what not! In the race of who has the better intelligence, wouldn't a nation with a high number of changelings have a major advantage? Yeah, I thought so! Lose moralities, alright. It's not enough to just have some, certain people are actually working forward to having more changelings! Well, the dragonmarked people try to keep their inherited power in line, right? Why shouldn't one harvest another power that's in the blood. The changelings might not even know themselves. Trust no one. Now that the truth is out, they might get me, and I will vanish. Or I will vanish for just a short time, and then reappear, but it won't be me." (Hey. That was fun.)
greatamericanfolkhero 10-09-07, 07:32 PM	Actually everyone in Sharn except your character is a changeling. It was an elaborate practical joke started back during the last war that just sort of snowballed.
redhase 10-10-07, 03:43 AM	I like the changelings my self, the recaster class, the cabinet trickester class are good to play. Try playing an changeling cabinet trickster/ assassin, there good at that too. Besides their narural abilites that make them good spies and such.
Remmster 10-10-07, 07:38 AM	Actually everyone in Sharn except your character is a changeling. It was an elaborate practical joke started back during the last war that just sort of snowballed. It appears you know too much as well. All your face are belong to us!
Battlesmith 10-11-07, 10:45 PM	You're cornered in a room with a dozen orcs. Thankfully having taken that last level of Shadowdancer, you manage to shadow jump or hide in plain sight, and take the appearance of one of the orcs. You're now either out of trouble (pending a minor bluff), or shifting your appearance slightly each round to throw them off balance while you take them out one by one. If not that, then Recaster is a good reason for them to be cool. Honestly, I prefer the Changelings to Shifters or Kalashtar, which seem bland or overly complicated to me. "Shoot him! I'm the real Kaius!" "No, he's the imposter! Don't shoot me!"
smscott 10-18-07, 01:24 AM	I don't know, but I am almost POSITIVE I will find lots of uses for my character I made for a campaign we just started. Changeling Rouge thats concept from the beginning was "The Spy" (these things happen when I play too much TF2). But they are exceptional as spies/saboteurs (especially when they have items for invisibility and nondetection, and glamered armor. Screw inferences based on appearance!). I plan on making a jaunt over to an enemy airship next session we play, blast-discing the steering, exploding-spike-ing the area around the blast disc, leaving, and having a volley fired at the ship. Nobody will have suspected me as I will have taken out one of the crew, either hidden him or thrown him off the side of the airship, assumed his identity, planted the explosives, and GTFO'd (Winged Boots or scroll of featherfall.) And the ship will then be captured and BE MINE! sorry for droning on, but hopefully my plan gives you an example of how the changeling can be effectively used and why they are useful at all!
Arcane Guyver 10-18-07, 04:00 AM	I'm playing a changeling beguiler pickpocket in a Planescape game currently (yeah, not Eberron...well, next best thing, ya?). I've come to the realization that I absolutely adore races that have active special abilities (rather than the usual passive special abilities, such as dwarven resistances or elven 'trapdoor sense' or halfling save bonuses). Disguise Self at will is incredibly fun to play with.