Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Daydreamer 05-29-07, 02:13 AM	The mark of death was not from queen vol herself was it? LIke her house vol had it for centuries before hand...how did it survive the translation to the mixed breed?
From_Khyber 05-29-07, 06:02 AM	As far as I know, it never appeared on any other race than the elven. When Vol became a lich, she instantly lost her mark, and even the day today, the Mark of Death can only be manifested by an elf. Howver, my knowledge on the thirteenth mark is a bit rusty so I cannot assure you anything, though.
gensuke626 05-29-07, 06:34 AM	Last I heard, the line of Vol basically ended with Erandis. THe Mark of Death no longer exists, officially. It's an Elf mark, so technically any elf could manifest it....and such an event would make for a wonderful story...and I think the novel "Marked for Death" and it's sequels follow that line of thought.
Mort_Q 05-29-07, 09:23 AM	I think the question was, if the Mark of Death is/was an Elf mark, how did a Half-Dragon get it?
SSj3goblin 05-29-07, 10:16 AM	I think it's the point of the mark, and one of the reason it is scary: The mark of finding can appear on half orcs and humans (two races!), the mark of death can appear on elves and half dragon elves, can you imagine what it means to the dragons? Taking it further, could dragons be "tainted" with the dragonmarks of the lesser races if the breeding is taken a step forward? Otherwise, to me, the mark of death is like the mark of finding, a dual race.
Azazyll 05-29-07, 10:34 AM	check the eberron timeline in the ECS. The line of Vol is old, but the mark was not when it was destroyed (well, not be elf standards). The first three marks were Death, shadow, and hospitality. It was destroyed 600 years after its first appearence, just after the arrival of humans to khorvaire and the appearence of the mark of Sentinel. No other human marks existed, nor did any half elves exist (the races mingled in the diaspora caused by the elf civil war). It's certainly possible that a half anything could bear the mark, keeping in mind that tharask could have two "races", vol could as well. Keep in mind also that there aren't many half dragons in eberron, and it's possible that any mark could appear on a half dragon; it's just only been tested by house Vol and the green dragon Emerald Clawwhich led to it being subsequently tabooed.
Luis_Dragunov 05-29-07, 01:41 PM	And what would the Mark of Death involve at all? That's one thing that's got me hooked. It's obviously connected to undead and death.
Shadowkire 05-29-07, 01:53 PM	And what would the Mark of Death involve at all? That's one thing that's got me hooked. It's obviously connected to undead and death. I am going to stop you right here: there are many other threads that deal with this question.
Luis_Dragunov 05-29-07, 02:22 PM	I am going to stop you right here: there are many other threads that deal with this question. Ah, sorry. Uhmm.. link please?
retillin 05-30-07, 12:48 AM	Just go back a few pages. You'll find prolly one or two per page. Huge topic.
Nived 05-30-07, 01:23 AM	I don't mean to be a jerk... but look at the top of the page... they finally got the search function on this forum working again. I suggest you use it in the future. However, I will post some links for you. Mark of Death (Feedback Requested) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=259606&highlight=Mark+of+death) Mark of Death? Description, Rules anywhere? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=781686&highlight=Mark+Of+Death) Mark of Death - Visuals (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=689452&highlight=Mark+Of+Death) The Mark of Death Coming into play (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754649&highlight=Mark+Of+Death) *sigh* Another damn Mark of Death question (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754649&highlight=Mark+Of+Death) The Mark of Death (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=689769&highlight=Mark+Of+Death) Yet another Mark of Death (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=746222&highlight=Mark+Of+Death) Next time search for yourself.
Daydreamer 05-30-07, 05:04 AM	i didnt see the issue of it being the difference between an elf and a half dragon elf brought up.
Edymnion 05-30-07, 12:03 PM	i didnt see the issue of it being the difference between an elf and a half dragon elf brought up.Well, it doesn't really matter is the thing. There are no official stats for the mark of death, including prereqs. For all we know, Half-Dragon was one of the valid races for it to appear on. Even if it wasn't, Erandis is a walking rules exception to begin with, as a half-dragon cannot become a lich in the first place (but could become a draco-lich).
gensuke626 05-30-07, 07:49 PM	I don't mean to be a jerk... but look at the top of the page... they finally got the search function on this forum working again. I suggest you use it in the future. ... Next time search for yourself. Just an Off Topic Note...Not everyone has the search feature. A sticky at the top of the boards says that Wizards is currently testing board stability and search functionality and monitoring bandwidth loads to decide whether to fully implement it or not. As such I personally don't have a search feature, though you do. There is a distint possibility that Luis_Dragunov also does not have the search feature enabled.
InfinityStar8 05-30-07, 10:31 PM	I've always looked at the Dragonmarks as being able to be passed on to Dragons also. But I did just have one thought, if marks are tied to races, and if all Dragons *COULD* have Dragonmarks, think some marks might be limited to Dragon colors? Like only Green Dragons can have the Mark of Death, only White can have Mark of Makeing so such?
Edymnion 06-01-07, 12:26 PM	I've always looked at the Dragonmarks as being able to be passed on to Dragons also. But I did just have one thought, if marks are tied to races, and if all Dragons *COULD* have Dragonmarks, think some marks might be limited to Dragon colors? Like only Green Dragons can have the Mark of Death, only White can have Mark of Makeing so such?By whats laid out in the setting, *ONLY* those people in Khovaire can manifest a dragonmark. Even if you are the right race, even if you have a marked ancestor somewhere in your lineage, you won't manifest the mark if you aren't in Khovaire (or at least have spent a great deal of time there). For example, no dragonmark has ever manifested in Sarlona. So, if Dragons could get dragonmarks, it would need to be one that has lived almost exclusively in Khovaire.
Nived 06-01-07, 01:54 PM	Or Aerenal
InfinityStar8 06-01-07, 09:43 PM	Or Aerenal Good point. Kind of makes me wonder about Vol's Daddy. I always hoped they would put a little info out on him. Maybe even just what kind of power he had in the Dragons world.
DragonBringerX 06-01-07, 10:46 PM	Even if it wasn't, Erandis is a walking rules exception to begin with, as a half-dragon cannot become a lich in the first place (but could become a draco-lich). i would like to second this...however: seeing as Eberron is neither the Draganomicon nor FR, nor do they require to have them, you cant blame them. However essentially you are correct. So, if they were ever to stat up Vol...she better well have Draco-lich stats or so help themselves :D
mhacdebhandia 06-02-07, 11:22 AM	Consider this: it's quite possible that one of the reasons why Erandis was such a problem for elves and dragons alike was that she was a dragon-blooded creature with a dragonmark - the Eberron Campaign Setting already describes the dragons of Argonessen watching in horror as the Prophecy began to unfold among the lesser races, after all, so imagine their further dismay and disgust at the thought of a) the lesser races mixing their blood with that of dragons and b) dragonmarks, elements of the Prophecy, appearing on dragon-blooded creatures themselves. It's not hard to imagine that the dragons weren't prepared to tolerate that.
DragoonDarkfire 06-02-07, 12:07 PM	My personal rule about d'Marked is that ONLY the race mentioned can gain it. If a TEMPLATE is applied to that race then it still counts as that race for the purpose of being able to get a dragonmark. For example: Revel d'Deneith does it with a celestial and they have a half celestial child. This child is perfectly capable of adopting a d'Mark since he's still a human, he just has a template added to him. When that line goes down until the child born is an Aasimar then a d'Marked cannot manifest on him as his Celestial and Human blood line has intertwined so much that he's no longer human, as such no longer capable of developing a dragonmark. There are a few exceptions to this that I make however. Example, an effigy created as a human could never develop a Mark because it could not carry the blood of House Deneith. It has no blood. The same applies to Pseudo natural creatures and other races where the fluff just wouldn't make sense.
mhacdebhandia 06-02-07, 06:23 PM	For example: Revel d'Deneith does it with a celestial and they have a half celestial child. This child is perfectly capable of adopting a d'Mark since he's still a human, he just has a template added to him. When that line goes down until the child born is an Aasimar then a d'Marked cannot manifest on him as his Celestial and Human blood line has intertwined so much that he's no longer human, as such no longer capable of developing a dragonmark. This doesn't make a lot of sense. First of all, why is an aasimar's celestial and human heritage more "intertwined" than an actual half-celestial's? That said, I can see an argument that having a dragonmarked human as a parent is a strong enough influence that there's still a chance of manifesting the mark, whereas having a dragonmarked human as a grandparent or great-grandparent means it's too dilute. That raises the question, though, of whether or not an aasimar child born to a dragonmarked half-celestial who married a dragonmarked human would have a chance of bearing the dragonmark? I mean, both parents are contributing the dragonmarked bloodline, there. I think it's a slippery slope. Second, by the rules a half-celestial isn't a human, but an outsider. I wouldn't mistake the game-mechanical fact that the half-celestial template is applied to a human base creature for meaning that the character is still essentially human - by the rules, he's more celestial than human because he shares a type with the celestial, and only superficial features with the human. Obviously, you can do things however you like. It doesn't make sense to me, though. However, it does make sense to me that, in the specific instance of a half-dragon, that a dragonmark could manifest on a character from a non-dragonmarked race. This implies that a half-dragon with a Lyrandar parent could manifest the Mark of Storm, but then it's strongly suggested that dragons don't mingle their blood with lesser races - Erandis's life story showing how horrible they consider the prospect to be. That said, what about the dragon disciple prestige class? I wonder if there's a meaningful distinction to be made between "transformed" half-dragons and "natural" half-dragons when it comes to the survival of a dragonmark? Would a dragonmarked Sivis sorcerer who became a dragon disciple lose the mark when she transformed into a half-dragon? Hmm.
DragoonDarkfire 06-02-07, 08:40 PM	This doesn't make a lot of sense. First of all, why is an aasimar's celestial and human heritage more "intertwined" than an actual half-celestial's? The way I see it yes. An outsider isn't like a normal human being, an outsider is a magical incarnation of a plane/alignment/moral outlook. When a human and an outsider do the dirty dance and have a kid that child has the blood and body of his human parent (as such is still human) but his soul/body is also partly that of the outsider. As such he has some of that outsiders abilities. When that blood line lessens and the character changes from a human half celestial to an aasimar, the effect on his would be greatly lessened. In this case I would see see if you would allow dragonmarks to appear on subspecies of humans (or the race they belong to). If yes then you could say that Deneith blood is still in him, it's just marginally mixed with a celestial power. If no then you might wanna think of an Aasimar as not being HUMAN with small bits of celestial. But an EVOLVED human who has tapped into his celestial heritage and has transformed into a non-human being because of his almost evolution into a higher form. An Aasimar in this case wouldn't simply be half human, half celestial. He would be an evolved form of human due to some celestial lineage. That raises the question, though, of whether or not an aasimar child born to a dragonmarked half-celestial who married a dragonmarked human would have a chance of bearing the dragonmark? I mean, both parents are contributing the dragonmarked bloodline, there. AH! And as I said. Would a half celestial human and a regular human mating produce an Aasimar? Perhaps. But who's to say the child couldn't be completely human and HIS child would be born an Aasimar? Perhaps a Aasimar would just randomly appear in a d'marked house due to a half celestial in the house a few hundred years ago and it only happened to show up right now. Again this is just my idea of how blood lines would work but it's still applicable. Second, by the rules a half-celestial isn't a human, but an outsider. Hmmm yes. But the rules for dragonmark feats state that you MUST be a member of the dragonamark race associated. Now you can argue all you want but a half celestial human is still considered a human by all accounts despite the fact his type changes to outsider. He still gains the extra bonus feat as a human and skill points as a human as well. A half celestial human is still a human and as such by cannon rules and regulations stated. He still fully qualifies for a dragonmarked feat. Now to any who think that Wizards is wrong. Then explain Eradis. Eradis is a dragon, we know this because the half dragon template changes her type to dragon. Now you could argue about dragons being more "in tune" with the prophecy but here's the kicker... HOW DO WE KNOW THE DRAGONS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE PROPHECY AT ALL!? If the dragons name the prophecy after them then who are the puny lesser races to argue with them? How do we know the tale of the "Three Dragons" was nothing but the dragons proclaiming their superiority to other races and making it seem like they're big shots? How do we know that Eberron wasn't a dog, Khyber wasn't a horse and Siberys wasn't a flying Spaghetti monster? Well that's the problem, you can't. And you're gonna have one hell of a time convincing people otherwise. Especially if the dragons think you're mocking them and their power. So the question again is- Do dragons REALLY have anything to do with the prophecy? Maybe but we can't be sure. There's no doubting their power and prestige but their actual connection to the prophecy simply seems to be the fact that they study it. I wouldn't mistake the game-mechanical fact that the half-celestial template is applied to a human base creature for meaning that the character is still essentially human - by the rules, he's more celestial than human because he shares a type with the celestial, and only superficial features with the human. Sorry dude but again as I said a half celestial is still human. He is considered an outsider and good because of his lineage but he is still a human at it's base. He can use magic items designed specifically for humans and still fulfills prerequisites for prestige classes that require you to be human. As such he is human. There's not much you can do to deny that. That said, what about the dragon disciple prestige class? I wonder if there's a meaningful distinction to be made between "transformed" half-dragons and "natural" half-dragons when it comes to the survival of a dragonmark? Would a dragonmarked Sivis sorcerer who became a dragon disciple lose the mark when she transformed into a half-dragon? Hmm. No probably not.
mhacdebhandia 06-03-07, 02:28 AM	Personally, I disagree with the FAQ that changing your type wouldn't bar you from manifesting a dragonmark associated with your race. It's a question of setting overruling mechanics - I recognise what the official answer is, but I think it's the wrong decision. They should have written the rules for dragonmarks to account for changing one's type and other issues. I make the specific exception for half-dragons because a) Erandis suggests that at least one dragonmark can manifest on half-dragon elves, and b) it's more aesthetically pleasing, in my opinion, to suggest that the child of a dragon and a member of a dragonmarked house might be an exception to the normal rules of dragonmark inheritance. I also disagree with your interpretation of what an aasimar is - it makes more sense to me to say that the child of a human and a celestial is a half-celestial, and the child of a half-celestial and a human is an aasimar. I think the bloodline mechanics from Unearthed Arcana are a much better representation of a reawakened celestial heritage than ruling that a half-celestial's child with a human is also human, but that the great-great-grandchild of a half-celestial might be unexpectedly born an aasimar.
Nived 06-03-07, 05:03 AM	Consider this, in EotLQ they statted up a half dragon mummy. There is a developer sidebar that flat out says "listen we know it isn't legal to just slap the half dragon template on a mummy, but its exactly the monster we want here, so it's a one of a kind unique creature..." Ok I'm paraphrasing but that's what they say. ECS says she's a lich she may well just be a lich.
DragoonDarkfire 06-03-07, 10:39 AM	Personally, I disagree with the FAQ that changing your type wouldn't bar you from manifesting a dragonmark associated with your race. It's a question of setting overruling mechanics - I recognise what the official answer is, but I think it's the wrong decision. They should have written the rules for dragonmarks to account for changing one's type and other issues. I personally thought they did that for DM's to decide on their own what to do in that instance. Personally I feel as though dragonmark feats really aren't that "unbalanced" anyway when you think about it. They only offer you a level 1 spell and you need to be level 12 or higher to get a level 8-9 spell. None of them are offensive either (save for Storm of Vengeance) so really adding a template to a human and then giving him a dragonmark is no more unbalanced then giving him a Martial Study feat. Of course I am one to take fluff into consideration and when I personally feel as though a template would mean no Dragonmark then I won't allow it. I make the specific exception for half-dragons because a) Erandis suggests that at least one dragonmark can manifest on half-dragon elves, and b) it's more aesthetically pleasing, in my opinion, to suggest that the child of a dragon and a member of a dragonmarked house might be an exception to the normal rules of dragonmark inheritance. Again. Why? The Rakshasa's are tied to the prophecy as well (they study it too) does that mean Half Feinds can develop Aberrant marks? If that's so then it's just limiting _________ template as being the ONLY one that can get a dragonmark. Which I personally feel is just stupid because you're basically saying "Alright you can't be a half celestial with a mark of sentinel but you can be a half dragon with a mark of sentinel." Mechanically it just looks like a random rule thrown in to limit a PC to one path only. And you didn't answer my argument as to whether or not the dragon's really have anything to do with the prophecy. I also disagree with your interpretation of what an aasimar is - it makes more sense to me to say that the child of a human and a celestial is a half-celestial, and the child of a half-celestial and a human is an aasimar. I think the bloodline mechanics from Unearthed Arcana are a much better representation of a reawakened celestial heritage than ruling that a half-celestial's child with a human is also human, but that the great-great-grandchild of a half-celestial might be unexpectedly born an aasimar. There's nothing in the fluff of Aasimar to say that it's the grand son of a celestial. It say's they're humans DESCENDED from Celestial blood. Saying that Humans with a celestial blood line are more likely are like saying humans with a lycanthrope blood line are more likely then Shifters or humans with Doppleganger blood line then Changelings.
Edymnion 06-03-07, 06:49 PM	My personal rule about d'Marked is that ONLY the race mentioned can gain it. If a TEMPLATE is applied to that race then it still counts as that race for the purpose of being able to get a dragonmark.By the rules, you can only have a working dragonmark if your type is Humanoid, and your subtype is Elf/Dwarf/Human/etc. If your type changes, you no longer have a working dragonmark. If your racial subtype changes, you no longer have a working dragonmark.
DragoonDarkfire 06-03-07, 07:27 PM	By the rules, you can only have a working dragonmark if your type is Humanoid, and your subtype is Elf/Dwarf/Human/etc. If your type changes, you no longer have a working dragonmark. If your racial subtype changes, you no longer have a working dragonmark. Really? Well then that doesn't explain Eradis at all :/
Edymnion 06-03-07, 07:53 PM	Really? Well then that doesn't explain Eradis at all :/Again, we don't know the prereqs for the Mark of Death. For all we know half-dragon is a perfectly valid race for it. Even if it isn't, Erandis is already a walking exception. She can't have a dragonmark, but she does. She can't be a lich, but she is.
mhacdebhandia 06-03-07, 09:35 PM	And you didn't answer my argument as to whether or not the dragon's really have anything to do with the prophecy. Your argument isn't really relevant. No, there's no hard evidence that the Draconic Prophecy really has anything more to do with the dragons of Argonessen than with any other faction engrossed in its study. Therefore, there's no particular reason why a half-dragon would be able to manifest a dragonmark, while a half-fiend could not. However, I choose to make an exception for half-dragons, because I choose to assert that the Draconic Prophecy is connected to the Progenitors, and that "modern" dragons are descended from the Progenitors. You don't have to do it my way, but I think my way makes more sense (or I wouldn't have chosen it) and accounts for the existing single apparent exception to the normal rules for dragonmarks, whereas your theory that a half-celestial could have a dragonmark isn't supported by the existence of any dragonmarked half-celestial. It's not actually a question of evidence, per se, you understand. However, I choose to not extrapolate any further than necessary from what we do definitively know - that there is at least one half-dragon with a dragonmark. (Of course, some might say I am extrapolating further than necessary, by assuming that it's not just the Mark of Death which can appear on a half-dragon, but it's an aesthetic choice I made because of the connections to the Draconic Prophecy.) There's nothing in the fluff of Aasimar to say that it's the grand son of a celestial. Actually, ever since aasimar and tieflings first appeared in the Planescape campaign setting during the Second Edition AD&D era, it's been true that aasimar are generally found as, at best, the grandchildren of a human-celestial pairing. Tieflings, in particular, were often found as the children of cambions or alu-fiends (the Second Edition equivalent of the half-fiend). It's generally been the case that planetouched are presented as beginning from the second generation after the original pairing.
DragoonDarkfire 06-04-07, 09:34 PM	Your argument isn't really relevant. No, there's no hard evidence that the Draconic Prophecy really has anything more to do with the dragons of Argonessen than with any other faction engrossed in its study. Therefore, there's no particular reason why a half-dragon would be able to manifest a dragonmark, while a half-fiend could not. However, I choose to make an exception for half-dragons, because I choose to assert that the Draconic Prophecy is connected to the Progenitors, and that "modern" dragons are descended from the Progenitors. AHA! If you have the right to make an exception with Half Dragons then don't I have the right to make an exception with any template I see fit? You don't have to do it my way, but I think my way makes more sense (or I wouldn't have chosen it) and accounts for the existing single apparent exception to the normal rules for dragonmarks, whereas your theory that a half-celestial could have a dragonmark isn't supported by the existence of any dragonmarked half-celestial. So there needs to be an actual listed example for it to make sense? How do you know there isn't a Half Celestial Fighter in Deneith that has a mark but is simply hiding his heritage so attention isn't drawn to him? Just cause a guy isn't as infamous or powerful as Vol doesn't mean they wouldn't exist. It's not actually a question of evidence, per se, you understand. However, I choose to not extrapolate any further than necessary from what we do definitively know - that there is at least one half-dragon with a dragonmark. Isn't one of the points of Eberron that you're SUPPOSE to expand on things? I mean that's the reason some things are left in the dark. Like the mourning, warforged and other such "Mysteries" of Eberron. (Of course, some might say I am extrapolating further than necessary, by assuming that it's not just the Mark of Death which can appear on a half-dragon, but it's an aesthetic choice I made because of the connections to the Draconic Prophecy.) Meh. Makes sense in your mind I guess. Although you might wanna also allow half feinds to have Aberrant dragonmarks if you're going with that line of thought. Actually, ever since aasimar and tieflings first appeared in the Planescape campaign setting during the Second Edition AD&D era, it's been true that aasimar are generally found as, at best, the grandchildren of a human-celestial pairing. Really? Where is this found? Tieflings, in particular, were often found as the children of cambions or alu-fiends (the Second Edition equivalent of the half-fiend). It's generally been the case that planetouched are presented as beginning from the second generation after the original pairing. Again. I have read no fluff on this. If you can point me to a book which has what you're talking about it'll be greatly appreciated.
yrogerg 06-04-07, 10:04 PM	I'm going to just pop in and out of this thread briefly to point out that "race" isn't technically a term with a game-mechanical definition, and that the relatedness and same-raceness of various creatures with the same type-subtype combinations tend to vary wildly in D&D. See, for examples: Elves, acquatic elves, drow, and half-elves, compared to the mephit, salamander, and the genie races, compared to couatls, rakshasa, level 20 monks, Aasimar, and Tielflings, compared to lizardfolk and troglodytes.
mhacdebhandia 06-06-07, 05:51 PM	AHA! If you have the right to make an exception with Half Dragons then don't I have the right to make an exception with any template I see fit? That's basically what I said, actually. I don't think it's really very fruitful to argue that other people should do something one way rather than another, though I certainly think it's reasonable to express an opinion about their choices. So there needs to be an actual listed example for it to make sense? How do you know there isn't a Half Celestial Fighter in Deneith that has a mark but is simply hiding his heritage so attention isn't drawn to him? Just cause a guy isn't as infamous or powerful as Vol doesn't mean they wouldn't exist. Actually, the way I look at it is very simple: the rules for dragonmarks restrict them to specific bloodlines within the various races. It's my opinion that a human of another family is "closer" to a Deneith heir than a non-human child of a Deneith heir - such as a half-celestial - so, since the non-Deneith full-blooded human can't manifest the mark, I don't think a half-celestial/half-human child of a Deneith heir should be able to. Any more than a half-elven child of a Deneith heir would be able to. Now, the existence of Erandis Vol requires me to account for the exception. Other posters have suggested that, perhaps, it's specifically the Mark of Death which can appear on elves and half-dragon/half-elf children of Vol heirs. However, since they're called dragonmarks and are believed by dragons who are experts on the Draconic Prophecy to be part of that Prophecy, I choose instead to assume - for my games - that half-dragons are an exception to the normal rules for manifesting the mark. Although you might wanna also allow half feinds to have Aberrant dragonmarks if you're going with that line of thought. I think that's pretty ridiculous. Really? Where is this found? Again. I have read no fluff on this. If you can point me to a book which has what you're talking about it'll be greatly appreciated. Second Edition AD&D Planescape campaign setting materials (http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?manufacturers_id=4&filter_id=310&).
DragoonDarkfire 06-06-07, 07:20 PM	That's basically what I said, actually. I don't think it's really very fruitful to argue that other people should do something one way rather than another, though I certainly think it's reasonable to express an opinion about their choices. Eh. Works for me. Actually, the way I look at it is very simple: the rules for dragonmarks restrict them to specific bloodlines within the various races. It's my opinion that a human of another family is "closer" to a Deneith heir than a non-human child of a Deneith heir - such as a half-celestial - so, since the non-Deneith full-blooded human can't manifest the mark, I don't think a half-celestial/half-human child of a Deneith heir should be able to. Notice how Celestials are said to have a magical nature and because of this they can reproduce with nearly anything? Why would it be so unreasonable to think that a celestial could carry the blood of Deneith or some other dragonmark house onto their offspring? Any more than a half-elven child of a Deneith heir would be able to. I think elves and celestials are a bit different in this regard. A half elf child is not the son of a human and a magical being, he's the son of two different races. While they're obviously genetically similar enough to reproduce the blood and body of each have been crossed over with a rather mundane force. Not only that but since there are elven dragonmarks it could just be that the prophecy has decided that elves and humans are separate and cannot interbred without producing an aberrant child. Of course it makes an exception for Medani and Lyndara but wondering about everything in a world of magic seems kinda pointless, especially in a world of mystery like Eberron. Now, the existence of Erandis Vol requires me to account for the exception. Other posters have suggested that, perhaps, it's specifically the Mark of Death which can appear on elves and half-dragon/half-elf children of Vol heirs. However, since they're called dragonmarks and are believed by dragons who are experts on the Draconic Prophecy to be part of that Prophecy, I choose instead to assume - for my games - that half-dragons are an exception to the normal rules for manifesting the mark. Again you're not really making much sense. Think of it like this. Dragonmarks have a myth that their tied to Siberys (Such explaining the Heir of Siberys prestige class), now Couatls are creatures formed from the blood of Siberys according to legend. What's interesting is that Couatls are good outsiders. As such if a Couatl were to take the form of a human or other creature and mate with said creature, the creature born (unless you wanna make a whole new template specifically for that) would be half celestial. In that sense if a Couatl were to mate with a d'marked of House Deneith then why couldn't that kid have a dragonmark, a gift of Siberys, because he carries the blood of a creature of Siberys? I think that's pretty ridiculous. Why? You need proof? We have a legend about Aberrant marks being a gift from Khyber, we have a prestige class for aberrant mark bearers called the Child of Khyber, feinds are from Khyber as such HOW is it unreasonable to think that a half feind couldn't have an aberrant mark? Second Edition AD&D Planescape campaign setting materials (http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?manufacturers_id=4&filter_id=310&). Riiiiiiiight.... I'm sorry but I don't see it... especially in Eberron. Why? Aasimars are the descendants of humans and celestials Shifters are the descendants of humans and lycanthropes Changelings are the descendants of humans and dopplegangers This could just be me but after looking this over I feel as though an Aasimar is much more appropriately placed as a separate race that breeds true (although obviously in much smaller numbers then Shifters or changelings as humans/outsider matings would probably be much rarer) then simply being the grandson of a celestial.
mhacdebhandia 06-06-07, 07:48 PM	You're free to do what you like, but I disagree with your conclusions. If nothing else, dragons and humanoid races have something in common which celestials and fiends do not - they're both mortal species native to Eberron. Dragonmarks seem to be intimately tied in to the fate of the world - and celestials and fiends are not really part of the world's destiny.
DragoonDarkfire 06-06-07, 08:19 PM	You're free to do what you like, but I disagree with your conclusions. If nothing else, dragons and humanoid races have something in common which celestials and fiends do not - they're both mortal species native to Eberron. Dragonmarks seem to be intimately tied in to the fate of the world - and celestials and fiends are not really part of the world's destiny. So are Couatls and Rakshasa's (notice how they're NATIVE outsiders?), point not made.
mhacdebhandia 06-07-07, 12:42 AM	They're immortal outsiders, native or no. YAY this is the best conversation EVER. :ton:
DragoonDarkfire 06-07-07, 10:57 AM	They're immortal outsiders, native or no. That means what exactly?
mhacdebhandia 06-07-07, 07:20 PM	That there's still an enormous difference between them and mortal creatures like elves and dragons?
DragoonDarkfire 06-07-07, 07:45 PM	That there's still an enormous difference between them and mortal creatures like elves and dragons? Calling dragons "Mortal" is a bit undermining. They're not outsiders like Couatls or Rakshasa's but they still live for thousands of years, have access to magic beyond the scope of men and are powerful enough to take on entire armies. Not only that but saying that Rakshasa's and Couatls are instantly not capable of reproducing with humans and giving children Dragonmarks has no basis to it. What does that statement prove at all? That outsiders are automatically incapable of carrying dragonmarks, even when they have d'marked blood? Because if so then I don't see any fluff presented that would support this theory, and the crunch fails to explain Eradis so the problem must lie either with- A) The Mark of Death itself. Or B) Dragonmarks are interbreed able among certain species limited too only dragons. C) Dragonmarks are interbreed able among certain species that are- for the most part magical creatures capable of breeding among any species. Some are in favor of explanation A, some with B and others (me) with C.
mhacdebhandia 06-07-07, 09:15 PM	I didn't say rakshasas and couatls couldn't interbreed with mortal creatures. I said that dragonmarks appear to be tied to the mortal races of Eberron - which includes dragons, but not outsiders. Anyway, I'm done here. Circling the drain is not my idea of productivity.
DragoonDarkfire 06-07-07, 10:39 PM	I didn't say rakshasas and couatls couldn't interbreed with mortal creatures. I said that dragonmarks appear to be tied to the mortal races of Eberron - which includes dragons, but not outsiders. Anyway, I'm done here. Circling the drain is not my idea of productivity. Awww... but I liked arguing about this. ;_; And not even native outsiders? I mean aren't native outsiders as tied to Eberron as simply mortal creatures?
Nived 06-09-07, 01:17 AM	Gentlemen Gentlemen (and ladies? I'm not sure) please. The Eberron Campaign Setting and Player's Guide to Eberron are clear. One must be of the Humanoid type with the Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Human, or Gnome subtype to have a Dragonmark. Vol doesn't count, she has the feat "Walking Plot Device [DM]" She's already a Lich when she can't be one (Eberron Campaign Setting pg 228 clearly states she's a Lich not a Draco-Lich. Logical as that may be that is just a fan concept that she's a Draco-Lich). Vol breaks the fundimental rules of the universe... that's why she and her whole family had to die! Shame the Dragons did such a poor job of it.
DragoonDarkfire 06-09-07, 10:10 AM	And- Rather unfortunately. I have the feat "Dungeon Master" allowing me to do what I want in my campaign. Besides if a PC o' mine actually decided to become a Half Celestial with a dragonmark he's gonna get hell for it.