Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Millenia 07-13-07, 11:10 PM	In a campaign I'm starting up, one of my players wants to be a Druid with the Moonspeaker. Of course, knowing allllll about the druid, I whacked it with the nerf stick a few times until it rolled over with all of the other classes. Which translates to: HD decreased to d6, BAB reduced to poor (1/2), and wild shape is drawn and quartered. :D ... Though I am allowing the player to choose the Wild Shifting substitution level (despite having nothing to substitute) and it appears the player is also choosing the Beast Spirit substitution level as well. .... Which then leads to the Moonspeaker. Quite frankly, it seems very powerful as it is. The player and myself have come to an accord to get rid of casting levels at levels 1, 5, and 10, and to get rid of the Wild Shape feature at level 5. Is that enough to balance out what it gains, or would it be best to decrease the HD size and the BAB rate as well?
timothyx 07-14-07, 12:17 AM	why bother letting him play the PRC if you're going to nerf it so much? If you're going to allow it, go with the reduction in HD size. Or. Just simply tell him to find something else to play.. Races of Eberron was a horrible book, I personally wouldn't allow anything from it except 3 or 4 of the feats, and maybe the Quori Nightmare. as an aside, these are what I would rip out of it to make it less retarded and more in line with the actual flavor of the Text and flavor of the Class; - Everything written under special
Millenia 07-16-07, 01:16 AM	why bother letting him play the PRC if you're going to nerf it so much? If you're going to allow it, go with the reduction in HD size. Because he wanted to take it, but I find druid-related classes to be too powerful. as an aside, these are what I would rip out of it to make it less retarded and more in line with the actual flavor of the Text and flavor of the Class; - Everything written under special Hah. Thank you for your input. My player has decided to play something else all on his own, though. >>a
timothyx 07-16-07, 04:55 AM	It's only "too" powerful if you the DM allow it to be. I once played a wicked rogue character could have gone toe to toe with the groups paladin and given him an asskicking into the stoneage. I think in 8 months, that character got into 7 fights, one per month really, it's all about game play. Sure I built him so he'd be good at 2 things, fighting (and fighting dirty), and using the Bluff/Diplomacy skills, of course he was completely wrong for the group, so I killed him off.
crashbangboom 07-17-07, 01:22 AM	Hah yourself:nonono: :nonono: :nonono:
The White Sorcerer 07-17-07, 07:47 AM	as an aside, these are what I would rip out of it to make it less retarded and more in line with the actual flavor of the Text and flavor of the Class; - Everything written under special So the flavor of the class is to be a druid without any special abilities?:confused:
TiwazTyrsfist 07-17-07, 10:51 AM	If you just don't allow Natural spell, is druid still over powered?
Millenia 07-17-07, 05:42 PM	If you just don't allow Natural spell, is druid still over powered? No clue, really. ^_^;;; Though I still think that Wildshape is too powerful, being an hours/level kind of ability. D:
timothyx 07-18-07, 12:02 AM	So the flavor of the class is to be a druid without any special abilities?:confused: I just think it's uber cheese, someone went a little nuts and just threw in a whole wack of things without really thinking. The True Necromancer is a great example of a 12 level prc, but it too has issues. I think whomever thought it would be cool to have a 12 level prc went spaztic and decided they needed to fill every line with something. No clue, really. ^_^;;; Though I still think that Wildshape is too powerful, being an hours/level kind of ability. D: Druids are really not that much more powerful than wizards, Clerics and Monks are the true broken classes.
Millenia 07-18-07, 09:42 PM	Druids are really not that much more powerful than wizards, Clerics and Monks are the true broken classes. Monks are weak, and the druids are considered to be the most powerful in the game. *Points to the CO boards and the various threads in the Classes section in the main DnD forum* DX
Teron Gorefiend 07-19-07, 01:20 AM	If you just don't allow Natural spell, is druid still over powered? Yes, but at least it's a step down from "f'ing insane" to "decidedly overpowered". It might drop below the cleric, at least...
korcheck 07-20-07, 11:33 AM	If you enforce the rules then the druid is not over powered anymore than a clerice is or any of the other classes the problem is very few people read the books 100% of the way through and end up playing classes wrong this makes them seem unbalanced. There are so many restrictions, ifs, ands, and buts in the rules that people don't see or read that this happens alot. As for the moonspeaker again this is a matter of game play the restrictions are high and the class IS powerful but if you keep the rules straight and other players play their characters as intended (this mean build the characters with some fore thought and not all willy-nilly as most do) then it will be relatively even gameing. IMO that is.
Teron Gorefiend 07-21-07, 02:24 AM	If you enforce the rules then the druid is not over powered anymore than a clerice is or any of the other classes the problem is very few people read the books 100% of the way through and end up playing classes wrong this makes them seem unbalanced. There are so many restrictions, ifs, ands, and buts in the rules that people don't see or read that this happens alot. As for the moonspeaker again this is a matter of game play the restrictions are high and the class IS powerful but if you keep the rules straight and other players play their characters as intended (this mean build the characters with some fore thought and not all willy-nilly as most do) then it will be relatively even gameing. IMO that is. Yeah, that must be it. We think clerics and druids are overpowered because we didn't read the whole books. :rolleyes: Go talk to the people on the optimization board. They're experts in building characters "with forethought", as you put it, and can show you simple cleric and druid builds that can slaughter groups of characters of the same level without trying.
korcheck 07-21-07, 11:25 AM	Yeah, that must be it. We think clerics and druids are overpowered because we didn't read the whole books. :rolleyes: Go talk to the people on the optimization board. They're experts in building characters "with forethought", as you put it, and can show you simple cleric and druid builds that can slaughter groups of characters of the same level without trying. Thats funny because I can easily pic any core class and do that to a group and that includes a bard. it's all abaout the build and if you can't build something right then that is your fault and not the fault of someone building a druid or cleric. fact: I can build a human fighter that will be the first to go at any lvl and will have done so much damage to your druid or cleric in the first round that you won't be able to cast a single spell and go ahead and change shape straight from the PHB and DMG only I still destroy your character. this goes for pally's and barbarians as well the may or may not do it as quickly but they to can get it done. Fact:with a bard or rogue I don't even have to get in the first swing you either won't see me untill your on the ground screeming or if you do you won't care because you won't know me or i'll make you my belt bit** before you can respond.... don't beleive me? That's what the bard is for I hold your attention and keep you busy the rest of the party takes you out (BTW to many people complain about how weak the bard is but he was never meant to be a solo his primary job is the support of the team which if done right is damn useful. Fact: the wizard and sorcerer..... THERE IS NOTHING THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID HERE on average either class can out damage and do it from farther away than either the cleric or the druid but in this case it is about being perpaired (generally this is always the case no matter who you are.) In conclusion smart ass READ THE BOOKS, get ideas, use your imagination and brain a little. You don't have to nerf one class just because you can't see the potential in another.
ShadowcatX 07-22-07, 08:30 AM	Thats funny because I can easily pic any core class and do that to a group and that includes a bard. it's all abaout the build and if you can't build something right then that is your fault and not the fault of someone building a druid or cleric. fact: I can build a human fighter that will be the first to go at any lvl and will have done so much damage to your druid or cleric in the first round that you won't be able to cast a single spell and go ahead and change shape straight from the PHB and DMG only I still destroy your character. this goes for pally's and barbarians as well the may or may not do it as quickly but they to can get it done. Fact:with a bard or rogue I don't even have to get in the first swing you either won't see me untill your on the ground screeming or if you do you won't care because you won't know me or i'll make you my belt bit** before you can respond.... don't beleive me? That's what the bard is for I hold your attention and keep you busy the rest of the party takes you out (BTW to many people complain about how weak the bard is but he was never meant to be a solo his primary job is the support of the team which if done right is damn useful. Fact: the wizard and sorcerer..... THERE IS NOTHING THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID HERE on average either class can out damage and do it from farther away than either the cleric or the druid but in this case it is about being perpaired (generally this is always the case no matter who you are.) In conclusion smart ass READ THE BOOKS, get ideas, use your imagination and brain a little. You don't have to nerf one class just because you can't see the potential in another. Whoa, you have opened my eyes, all us people at C.O. have nothing on you. What we all believed to be the greatest of classes is really the weakest. . .whoa, just whoa. But to quote a semifamous druid: "Fool, I have class abilities more powerful than your entire class." But to prevent this from getting more off track, come to C.O. and make this post.
korcheck 07-22-07, 12:52 PM	OK class for today we will learn the power of cheese. The contest will be between a fighter and a druid we will take the build to 5th lvl only and for simplicity we will use only humans. Their stats will be equally matched, all 18's to start. I will be using the PHB only (Because a friend borrowed all my complete series)this is how the designers set game balance and it wasn't until later with other books that people began to try and bend it 'till it broke. First we have the druid:str18,dex18,con18,int18,wis19,cha1 8 BAB: 3 total attack is 7, saves: 4,1,4 total:8,5,8 skill points total: 72 hp: (maxed out) 60 the rest of this will be filled out by you who think that you can make him beat a fighter. Remember he/she gets 3 feats only the spells/day are 5,3,2,1 the terrain will be open field with no one flat foot or anything else everything is even before the start of this exercise and niether side hase the advantage from outside influences. using the gold count out of the DMG of 9000 gp. Finally we have the fighter str19,dex18,con18,int18,wis18,cha18 BAB: 5 total attack is 9, saves: 4,1,1 total: 8,5,5 skill points total: 56 hp: (maxed out) 70, init:8 feats chosen: improved init, mounted combat, ride-by attack, spirited charge, wp focus lance, power attack with this selection my minimum damage 9 my max w/out crit is 35 if I crit that number goes to 36 to 113. (I dont care who you are that really hurts) and this doesn't take into account any magic items I may have. tell me how well you will cast a spell after that damage is done even if I only do the 7 points (unlikely.) ok you get you shot at me now you have a pet and you can either cast or change at this point i would go to a flying shape to get away or cast a spell up there if you are able or you can try to go toe to toe with me even with you pet.... I'm not to worried. Bottom line if I haven't killed you this round you'll be dead the next bird or not. now also keep in mind that I have multiple route to take my pc in which to dispence the pain to you if i go the TWP route its just as bad and actually might be worse. next time I will teach a little thing called the tactics of stealth by the rogue
Teron Gorefiend 07-23-07, 11:37 PM	OK class for today we will learn the power of cheese. The contest will be between a fighter and a druid we will take the build to 5th lvl only and for simplicity we will use only humans. Their stats will be equally matched, all 18's to start. I will be using the PHB only (Because a friend borrowed all my complete series)this is how the designers set game balance and it wasn't until later with other books that people began to try and bend it 'till it broke. First we have the druid:str18,dex18,con18,int18,wis19,cha1 8 BAB: 3 total attack is 7, saves: 4,1,4 total:8,5,8 skill points total: 72 hp: (maxed out) 60 the rest of this will be filled out by you who think that you can make him beat a fighter. Remember he/she gets 3 feats only the spells/day are 5,3,2,1 the terrain will be open field with no one flat foot or anything else everything is even before the start of this exercise and niether side hase the advantage from outside influences. using the gold count out of the DMG of 9000 gp. Finally we have the fighter str19,dex18,con18,int18,wis18,cha18 BAB: 5 total attack is 9, saves: 4,1,1 total: 8,5,5 skill points total: 56 hp: (maxed out) 70, init:8 feats chosen: improved init, mounted combat, ride-by attack, spirited charge, wp focus lance, power attack with this selection my minimum damage 9 my max w/out crit is 35 if I crit that number goes to 36 to 113. (I dont care who you are that really hurts) and this doesn't take into account any magic items I may have. tell me how well you will cast a spell after that damage is done even if I only do the 7 points (unlikely.) ok you get you shot at me now you have a pet and you can either cast or change at this point i would go to a flying shape to get away or cast a spell up there if you are able or you can try to go toe to toe with me even with you pet.... I'm not to worried. Bottom line if I haven't killed you this round you'll be dead the next bird or not. now also keep in mind that I have multiple route to take my pc in which to dispence the pain to you if i go the TWP route its just as bad and actually might be worse. next time I will teach a little thing called the tactics of stealth by the rogue I wrote an in-depth response yesterday, but my computer ate it. In shorter form, one of the many ways the druid can win easily is to cast dominate animal on the fighter's mount and have it throw him off; then all he has to do is ride circles around the fighter on that mount or on his own animal companion and pepper him with ranged attacks until he drops, bleeding and sobbing at the unfairness of it all. If the fighter has his own ranged weapon (and wasn't keeping it in a saddlebag), warp wood will destroy it.
korcheck 07-24-07, 10:28 AM	I wrote an in-depth response yesterday, but my computer ate it. In shorter form, one of the many ways the druid can win easily is to cast dominate animal on the fighter's mount and have it throw him off; then all he has to do is ride circles around the fighter on that mount or on his own animal companion and pepper him with ranged attacks until he drops, bleeding and sobbing at the unfairness of it all. If the fighter has his own ranged weapon (and wasn't keeping it in a saddlebag), warp wood will destroy it. This could happen yes, BUT, only if the druid went first and that is the problem, if a fighter doesn't go first in a fight there is something truly wrong. As stated though if I went first in that fight, after my first charge you wouldn't be able cast a spell do to your concentration check if I do average damage.... let alone max your only hope is if I miss or do minimum damage. BTW I have to say I am enjoying this debate so thank you. When I get a chance I will show you what a rogue or a bard can do next if you'd like the above works just as well and better with a pally (special mount)as for a barbarian or a monk weeeellll they only have to get close up and a druid or cleric is toast. as for the comment earlier of going to the other board... it would be six of one half a dozen of the other there would be people I could win over and people I couldn't
Dark_Rhapsody 07-24-07, 03:04 PM	I would have to say that it is very possible that the druid will go first, because initiative is based on the d20 roll, so it is pretty random in this case. However, I would say that the simple commands of the Dominate Animal spell wouldn't be that much of a problem for a fighter. Plus, it would only be a total of 5 rounds of effect. The fighter could just move passed the horse and attack the druid, since a horse couldn't constantly move (since the game is turn based) and it wouldn't run in circles anyways ("fetch", "run", or "attack" really doesn't sound like "run in circles") Plus, dominate animals takes a full round to cast, which means that it would take into effect after the fighter's turn, which would leave the druid open to attack. An attack from the fighter may possibly cause the druid to fumble the spell. However, I am not saying that the druid is helpless, because that would be completely false. It is really up to the rolls in this case. I do not agree though with the notion that many people have of monks that they are weak. My main player is a monk and he kicks the crap out of the evil clerics that he has to fight. I would say that the only class that is underpowered if they are solitary are the bard, but as people have said, they are made for group play. Oh, by the way, I have played as a rogue, wizard, and fighter, and I have DMed using NPCs in the adventuring party, so I have had a lot of experience with each class. Yes, I admit it, I have NPCs in the adventuring party (the dreaded DMPCs). Oh boy, sue me (my players like having them, because we have a total group of four people, and most of the time, player numbers ranges from 1-2). I might sound like I am making myself sound "all knowing", but I don't know it all. I am not an expert, but I don't think the 3.5 classes are not overpowering. It all depends on what the player is used to playing and what they excell in reference to classes. I have made amazingly powerful rogues, because I know exactly how to use their abilities.
korcheck 07-24-07, 03:42 PM	I would have to say that it is very possible that the druid will go first, because initiative is based on the d20 roll, so it is pretty random in this case. My reason for saying that the fighter would go first was due to the imp. init. feat. true rolls mean everything but the better the stat the better the chance to go first. I believe the feat thug also gives another 2 to init. which would mean that if I replaced one of the other feats this particular fighter build would have a base of ten to the init roll compared to a druids 4 (maybe 8 IF he wasted a precious feat on imp. init. as well.) also I chose to use only feats out if the PHB if I had used any of other books (had I had them with me) then the damage could have been worse. and none of this took in to consideration magic items. Thanks for your input dark that is what I was trying to get at in a long winded sort of way. lol
androkguz 07-24-07, 05:46 PM	This idea of comparing classes by having them fight in a plain scenario is stupid (no ofense) DnD should be more than a coliseum. There are traps, plots, and a lot of challenges that are not a straight one on one fight. The fighter has few to zero options for non-combat encounters and has not that many options for weird fights (such as against swarms, incorpoteal creatures, trolls...)- If the fighter is somewhat balanced against the druid in the duel area... then the druid is obviously a more powerful class. Wild shape's power comes not just from flying but from reducing in size, gaining scent, waterbreathing, darkvision, 80Ft speed and so many other ridiculous things that can solve just too many problems. In spell casting, the druid is got the answer to everything. The counter balance then is that he's not got that all at the same time but with only a few scrolls you can make sure that no wall or trap or nature's creature will stop you. The druid is got more skill points too (or is it that having knowledge is not considered in the mix for how powerful a class is? If the answer is no, you really should make more interesting adventures) Druids are way overpowered because of that, it's not really a manner of winning a one on one. I mean, if the fighter had a 5th level ability that said "once per day, as an inmediate action, you may mentally kill a druid of level 20th or less, no save" and had no other thing (no bonus feats, no skill points, no weapon proficiency) then your test would result in "oh, the fighter is an overpowered class compared to the druid"
korcheck 07-24-07, 06:58 PM	And in steps the rogue my friend with one feat (educated) he has every knowledge skill and with one skill he can do nearly everything the druid can do (UMD) I am not saying for even a second that in it's field of expertise the druid isn't powerful but to say a druid is all powerful due to his abilities without looking at the other classes in thier own respective fields is the single most ASSININE (yes I spelled it that way on purpose) thing I have ever read on these boards. I put the druid and the fighter in an open field for this very reason. Of course if the druid is in a forest or in his own element he will excede but let me see you put him in a social setting against a rogue or bard, or one on one with a fighter, ranger, monk, barbarian, or pally, or what ever you want with a wizard or sorcerer. THIS is my arguement each class has it's own element or expertise, to claim one is greater than another due to a few abilities in this regards is to discount all that the other classes can do. Here's another scenario for you the all powerful druid walks into a court of some fine king demanding this or that or saying one thing or another basically full of righteous indignation. One of the kings advisor who just happens to have levels as a bard or a rogue steps up to handle the kings light work for him and procedes to talk circles around this upstart backwoods yokel hick which leads to the druid being thrown out of the court. The king worried he start something in the city asks for his advisor to handle this discretely so our intrepid rouge (in this instance or the bard highers one whatever) heads out after the druid when it is nice and quiet BOOM the druid has several inches of fine steel in his back and drops to the ground screaming like a little bit--. Again this is how the class are more powerful than each other IN THERE OWN ENVIRONMENT.
Teron Gorefiend 07-24-07, 08:55 PM	This could happen yes, BUT, only if the druid went first and that is the problem, if a fighter doesn't go first in a fight there is something truly wrong. As stated though if I went first in that fight, after my first charge you wouldn't be able cast a spell do to your concentration check if I do average damage.... let alone max your only hope is if I miss or do minimum damage. In your example, we have the same Dexterity and I can take Improved Initiative, too (and I would, in fact, especially since we're core-only). If you do go first, and if you hit me... I take some damage. Big deal. I can just step back and cast a spell. I don't have to make a Concentration check if I don't take damage while I'm casting. Note that you gave the fighter a big advantage with 18's in every ability, since the druid only cares about Wisdom and Constitution once he can wildshape - but it doesn't matter. By targeting your mount I can make your improbably high save bonuses irrelevant. It's also unlikely that we'd meet on an open field; in hills, a swamp, a cave, a building, or pretty much anything else, you couldn't ride and/or charge. If we did meet in an open field, we'd see each other coming from far enough away that I could cast some spells before you got in charging range. Still, I let you have that impossible combination of advantages and really tried to give you a semblance of a chance, but it just doesn't matter. I can still win easily as I described above. That's not even considering that, realistically, I would have started the fight already in the air as an eagle (wildshape lasts an hour per level, after all) and warped your ranged weapon so you couldn't touch me. BTW I have to say I am enjoying this debate so thank you. When I get a chance I will show you what a rogue or a bard can do next if you'd like the above works just as well and better with a pally (special mount)as for a barbarian or a monk weeeellll they only have to get close up and a druid or cleric is toast. No, CoDzilla (cleric or druid) can beat anything short of Pun-Pun. Not to mention it's infinitely more useful outside a fight than most of those classes. Show me any build (I suggest you use a more reasonable set of ability scores, like the elite NPC array or 25-point buy, but it doesn't actually matter) and I'll whip it easily and still have enough spell slots left to heal myself, ask a plant or animal for directions to the nearest bar, and pay my tab by curing diseases. as for the comment earlier of going to the other board... it would be six of one half a dozen of the other there would be people I could win over and people I couldn't No. You wouldn't convince anyone. The people on the character optimization forum are experts at this stuff (way better than me), and they'll all tell you that the druid is the best class, hands down. Ask and see for yourself if you like. (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339) I would have to say that it is very possible that the druid will go first, because initiative is based on the d20 roll, so it is pretty random in this case. However, I would say that the simple commands of the Dominate Animal spell wouldn't be that much of a problem for a fighter. Plus, it would only be a total of 5 rounds of effect. The fighter could just move passed the horse and attack the druid, since a horse couldn't constantly move (since the game is turn based) and it wouldn't run in circles anyways ("fetch", "run", or "attack" really doesn't sound like "run in circles") Plus, dominate animals takes a full round to cast, which means that it would take into effect after the fighter's turn, which would leave the druid open to attack. An attack from the fighter may possibly cause the druid to fumble the spell. However, I am not saying that the druid is helpless, because that would be completely false. It is really up to the rolls in this case. OK, so I'd forgotten some of the specifics of dominate animal (though I'd say "throw that guy off" and "let me get on" are simple enough, after which I can control it like any mount, if not better). Regardless, that was just one idea off the top of my head. For another, in an open field where I see him coming a long way off (the only terrain where he can use his mount effectively), I could kill his mount and probably cut his foot speed in half by casting the undetectable spike growth between us. I do not agree though with the notion that many people have of monks that they are weak. My main player is a monk and he kicks the crap out of the evil clerics that he has to fight. I would say that the only class that is underpowered if they are solitary are the bard, but as people have said, they are made for group play. I'm curious as to how that happens. Maybe he just built and plays his monk much better than you build and run clerics. In any case, feel free to take up the argument on the character optimization forum to get the opinions of people who study this stuff like a science.
androkguz 07-25-07, 11:04 AM	And in steps the rogue my friend with one feat (educated) he has every knowledge skill and with one skill he can do nearly everything the druid can do (UMD) I am not saying for even a second that in it's field of expertise the druid isn't powerful but to say a druid is all powerful due to his abilities without looking at the other classes in thier own respective fields is the single most ASSININE (yes I spelled it that way on purpose) thing I have ever read on these boards. I put the druid and the fighter in an open field for this very reason. Of course if the druid is in a forest or in his own element he will excede but let me see you put him in a social setting against a rogue or bard, or one on one with a fighter, ranger, monk, barbarian, or pally, or what ever you want with a wizard or sorcerer. THIS is my arguement each class has it's own element or expertise, to claim one is greater than another due to a few abilities in this regards is to discount all that the other classes can do. Here's another scenario for you the all powerful druid walks into a court of some fine king demanding this or that or saying one thing or another basically full of righteous indignation. One of the kings advisor who just happens to have levels as a bard or a rogue steps up to handle the kings light work for him and procedes to talk circles around this upstart backwoods yokel hick which leads to the druid being thrown out of the court. The king worried he start something in the city asks for his advisor to handle this discretely so our intrepid rouge (in this instance or the bard highers one whatever) heads out after the druid when it is nice and quiet BOOM the druid has several inches of fine steel in his back and drops to the ground screaming like a little bit--. Again this is how the class are more powerful than each other IN THERE OWN ENVIRONMENT. No, that would be good if it was true. The fact is that in your world, the fighter's enviroment is face to face in a open field. And even there the druid is got a very good chance of winning (charm animal or hold animal people...). Remember that I can have a large pet starting between us. So if the fighter is better than the druid only in that crazy scenario (and only barely better), and the druid humiliates the fighter in everything else (he's better even in the court situation, the druid is got diplomacy. And he's as good as the fighter against surprise attacks, maybe better for a good wolf can smell what he can't see) then the druid is a better class. I'm only comparing fighter VS druid by the way.
korcheck 07-25-07, 04:23 PM	In your example, we have the same Dexterity and I can take Improved Initiative, too (and I would, in fact, especially since we're core-only). If you do go first, and if you hit me... I take some damage. Big deal. I can just step back and cast a spell. I don't have to make a Concentration check if I don't take damage while I'm casting. No I only limited my self to the PHB because I didn't have the other books, not you. Per haps we play spells a bit differently then because the way we run it is you consentration check is based on 10+spell lvl+damage taken if this is the case then you wouldn't be casting most spell as for healing casting a spell provokes AoO. As for your statement about the horse ok so he's a pally you won't be using the spells to well on their mounts. No, that would be good if it was true. The fact is that in your world, the fighter's enviroment is face to face in a open field. And even there the druid is got a very good chance of winning (charm animal or hold animal people...). Remember that I can have a large pet starting between us. So if the fighter is better than the druid only in that crazy scenario (and only barely better), and the druid humiliates the fighter in everything else (he's better even in the court situation, the druid is got diplomacy. And he's as good as the fighter against surprise attacks, maybe better for a good wolf can smell what he can't see) then the druid is a better class. I'm only comparing fighter VS druid by the way. Yes this is partly true but as I stated each class has it's own environment this is part no one is getting or refuses to see. Again I am not saying and haven't said druids are weak but each class excels in different areas. How many different ways can this be freakin' stated to make you all see that ok woopty do the druid has diplomacy the bard and the rogue will still beat you there ok the druid and cleric have spells the wizard or sorcerer do to and combat wise can be specked to be more deadly ok the druid can play in the woods so can a ranger AND he fights better. A ranger doesn't have the spell but he has a bow or TWF and your spell only works if you are in range. I give specific examples to show where each excels over another yes they have their weaknesses but so does a druid and a cleric. It is in these areas where they shine that and your druid doesn't that you refuse to acknowledge. Agian back to the rogue lets see your druid follow him through a trap fill dungeon or fight him within an alley filled city scape for all your druids vaunted abilities he is dstill going to lose against a well played rogue. When you strip away all of the advantages a druid has by placing him in the field he is more likely to lose and to be perfectly honest if I am a fighter or whatever I am going to make damn sure I fight you where it benifits me and not you it's called basic tactics ladies and gentlemen minumize the advantages your enemy has, choose the terrain and location of the battle and remember it's OK to retreat that you may continue to weak the enemy at another location of your choosing. I will never say that a druid isn't powerful but I will always say that I can and always will exploit an enemies weaknesses to the fullest. Just as if a druid is smart he will do all he can to stay out of melee combat so too will the other classes if they are smart do all they can to eliminate a druids advantages. And if those fools on the op boards can't see this that is their problem not mine let them come to me this is my battlefield.
androkguz 07-25-07, 10:26 PM	No I only limited my self to the PHB because I didn't have the other books, not you. Per haps we play spells a bit differently then because the way we run it is you consentration check is based on 10+spell lvl+damage taken if this is the case then you wouldn't be casting most spell as for healing casting a spell provokes AoO. As for your statement about the horse ok so he's a pally you won't be using the spells to well on their mounts. No, he can make a 5ft step back after the hit, then you wouldn't get an AoO. Yes this is partly true but as I stated each class has it's own environment this is part no one is getting or refuses to see. Again I am not saying and haven't said druids are weak but each class excels in different areas. No man, that I get. It's you who doesn't seem to get my point. Ok, lets see, do you by any chance play Magic? Compare this two cards: healing salve and ancestral recall. They each is good for something: the salve gives you life, the recall gives you cards. They each give you three in exchange of one mana at instant speed. And the recall is a zillion times a better card than the salve. Just because the fighter can be better at something than the druid does it means they are balanced. If you scored the capability of each class in each diferent general situation (but not too general) you would see that the fighter is got a little more points in "one on one combat" than the druid while the druid wouldn't lose in any other situation, and would very often kick the fighter's ass. You see, in magic, every card in a set is suposed to be balanced in cost, versatility, power, drawback... just like the classes of DnD are supposed to be balanced every level. But we both know there are some weak and some very strong cards.
korcheck 07-25-07, 11:57 PM	So let me get this straight, every single one of you has decide that this stupid druid is the SINGLE most powerful class in the game? My next response is, prove it. I have sat here through this whole thing and tried to pound in your thick skulls the virtues of each of the other classes but it apperently isn't working so YOU show me how the druid is a better fighter than the fighter or the monk or the pally or the ranger. YOU show me how the obviously superior druid can out socialize or out stealth the rogue or the bard. YOU show me how the druid can give out more damage per spell or has more versitillity than a wizard or a sorcerer. The only thing that I am seeing from this end is a woods man that can do SOME healing, can shape shift, (and this is the only thing he can do that someone else can't do as well or better... oh wait polymorph true it takes longer but it can be done) can do SOME magic, a very little bit of fighting, and may be able to talk his way out of a wet paper bag if some one starts the hole for him. So again YOU tell me what exactly a druid can do that the other class can't. And so help me if you try to throw the "Well he's the best because he can do everything" I'll reach through this screen and slap you then firmly rub your nose in a pile of rogue and bard droppings. They do everything. They can do EVERYTHING a druid can do AND do their own job as well. Don't believe? Read the rest of the thread over because I won't repeat myself for a 15th time. Your druid is quaint but read the WHOLE BLEEDIN' ARGUEMENT and quit picking out the lines that suit you. fine given the right set of circumstances the druid can beat a fighter. But thats the whole point of the flippn' game if every one excels equally in everything then you wind up with one class each is better than the others at something. OK I'm done for to night your insanity has given me a migraine I'll check back tomorrow and see what you have to say.
Vorj 07-26-07, 12:05 AM	To me any class can beat any other class on any given day if there was a grand tournament held to decide which class is the most powerful. In the end this discussion boils down to how you build a character; if you want to you can build a fighter that is going to be exceptionally good at taking out spell casters by taking the proper feats as well as having the right tool for the right job. A spell caster with the proper feats as well as having the right kind of spells selected as well as once again having the right tool for the right job can easily turn a melee combatant to a pile of ash or a lump of stone or killing the melee combatant in some other perfectly horrible method. How you play a given class, how you equip a character of that class, how you use the tools (i.e.: spells, feats, class features & gear) that a character posses determines how powerful that character will be. However, to strip a core class of one of its core components like denying the Druid access to their wildshape ability is like telling a fighter, paladin, barbarian, or ranger they cannot use weapons or cannot use a certain class of weapons. If you feel the duration is to long on the wildshape then modify that say to 1 minute per level or 1 turn a level. Every class has a shtick or two and druids is spell-casting and shape changing, for a moonspeaker there shtick is summoning animals and spell casting to help them deal with challenges they cannot over come themselves. Taking a class’s shtick way from them takes away an essential part of them making them non-viable unless you replace that loss with something else. My opinion on the Moonspeaker PRC yes it is powerful but that is the point of the class and on that note that is the point of any of the PRC available in D&D 3.5. Actually I think the point is to allow a character to specialize along a certain line available to that class and by specializing the PRC is more powerful than the base class in that particular field. Personally, I think the RoE book is a very good book because it provides a lot of information that was not available anywhere else at the time of its publication.
korcheck 07-26-07, 12:06 AM	No, he can make a 5ft step back after the hit, then you wouldn't get an AoO. wrong a 5ft step incures AoO becuase you are leaving a threatened area.
The White Sorcerer 07-26-07, 10:28 AM	wrong a 5ft step incures AoO becuase you are leaving a threatened area. Umm... No, it doesn't. Read the rules. Heck, I'll quote the rules: "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity."
Bailrut 07-26-07, 12:23 PM	In my campaign, the Moonspeaker is pretty much an NPC PrC only. I mean, the role they play as mediators and spiritual guides, linking all of the varied shifter clans together is pretty much a full time job and really doesn't lend itself to adventuring. Great for mentors, not players.
korcheck 07-27-07, 06:47 PM	Umm... No, it doesn't. Read the rules. Heck, I'll quote the rules: "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." My apolgies I suppose I should follow my own advise lol. However with a lance (a reach weapon) he is still within my attack range so that does him no good.
The White Sorcerer 07-28-07, 06:41 AM	However with a lance (a reach weapon) he is still within my attack range so that does him no good. But wouldn't you be 10 ft. away from the druid after your lance attack, for precisely that reason? The druid would then be 15 ft. away with a 5-footer, and thus out of range and unthreatened.
androkguz 07-28-07, 04:51 PM	Korcheck, it's me who is amazed of how you don't seem to get my point. I get! the fighter is good at fighting and the druid is good at shapeshifting, and the rogue and the bard are the best skirmishers and the wizards and sorcereres deal a lot of damage and blah blah.... THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE BALANCED!!!!!!! For my point I decided to make the debate only in a fighter VS druid scenario. And my point was that if you compare which class has a better time in each of many diferent situations, the fighter would beat the druid ONLY in hand to hand combat and by a small margin. In the rest of the scenarios they would either be ecually good, or the druid would be a little bit better, or the druid would kick the fighter's ass. So the druid is much more good than the fighter in what the druid is good than the fighter is better than the druid in what the fighter is good. The druid is better in what the fighter is good than the fighter is good in what the druid is good. And besides, the druid is better than the fighter in more things. Before you say again we are all crazy and that you're amazed how no one understands you, please think again and better than that, just refute precisely my point or point out something that I'm missing that is a reason for all of this not to mean that the druid is a relatively better class than the fighter. Or we could also compare the druid with another class, you decide :)
korcheck 07-29-07, 01:00 PM	Please allow me to quote myself in the hopes that you will fully read it. So let me get this straight, every single one of you has decide that this stupid druid is the SINGLE most powerful class in the game? My next response is, prove it. I have sat here through this whole thing and tried to pound in your thick skulls the virtues of each of the other classes but it apperently isn't working so YOU show me how the druid is a better fighter than the fighter or the monk or the pally or the ranger. YOU show me how the obviously superior druid can out socialize or out stealth the rogue or the bard. YOU show me how the druid can give out more damage per spell or has more versitillity than a wizard or a sorcerer. The only thing that I am seeing from this end is a woods man that can do SOME healing, can shape shift, (and this is the only thing he can do that someone else can't do as well or better... oh wait polymorph true it takes longer but it can be done) can do SOME magic, a very little bit of fighting, and may be able to talk his way out of a wet paper bag if some one starts the hole for him. So again YOU tell me what exactly a druid can do that the other class can't. And so help me if you try to throw the "Well he's the best because he can do everything" I'll reach through this screen and slap you then firmly rub your nose in a pile of rogue and bard droppings. They do everything. They can do EVERYTHING a druid can do AND do their own job as well. Don't believe? Read the rest of the thread over because I won't repeat myself for a 15th time. Your druid is quaint but read the WHOLE BLEEDIN' ARGUEMENT and quit picking out the lines that suit you. fine given the right set of circumstances the druid can beat a fighter. But thats the whole point of the flippn' game if every one excels equally in everything then you wind up with one class, each is better than the others at something. OK I'm done for to night your insanity has given me a migraine I'll check back tomorrow and see what you have to say. Ok let's put aside the fighter for now, the fact is that I have stated before that I don't fully disaggree with you. I do understand what you are saying and am trying to explain to you the why of it all. You have become fixated on one thing to the exclusion of all else, so step away from the tree and look at the forest. As I said If all the classes were the same then there would be no reason for the game. Why would anyone want to play a game in which you have no choises? How about we do this. I think that the rogue is too powerful and we need to nerf it. WotC made a huge mistake and should just scrap all of the 3.5 stuff and start over to make the world fair and represent the socialist/communist view of the world. We need to make it weaker because it is obvious that they are better suited in any situation that may arise than any other class. Why doesn't everybody play a rogue? NO WAIT! That's it, that is the solution to DnD4.0 EVERYONE can start off as a commoner the whole point will be to create a better society by working harder so your profits and life can be bled off by the system to feed someone else that won't work for themselves and the new PrCs will be government wokers and tax collectors. In Eberron the Halflings will be forced to give aid and medicine to all so we can have a HUGE waiting list for everyone to be healed. If anyone excels at something we can punish them by taking more and more of their lifes work from them and give it to the less diserving that way in a few generations no one will want to be better than someone else for fear of reprisal from the whole. That's where your going with this B.S. arguement that druids should be nerfed right? If the druids and clerics are to be nerfed than we had better do the same to the rogues and bard as well apperently the only classes that are even are the ones with little or no abilities or options like that worthless fighter with all the feats. That would be fair right? So please tell me your arguement and sollution for the druids or the clerics. What I am asking is what is it that you think makes the druid so vastly superior to ALL the other classes? I asked this question 8 posts back but as with everything else I have said those who disagree with me are ignoring the questions and half of what I say and focusing on one thing I dare one of you to go through this whole post and address every key point I have made. P.S. I realize you are from Venezuela andro but I am having a difficult time understanding most of what you are writing. I let you grammer slide because of this but....
korcheck 07-30-07, 02:25 PM	Against my better judgement I have put this case before the recognized masters in the op boards. I am awaiting their comments.
Darakhoranon 07-30-07, 05:06 PM	The druid is "overpowered"? Maybe. If you know what you´re doing. BIG "if"... I know at least three guys who couldn´t make an efficient druid if their life depended on it. It requires the knowledge, the ability to use the rules to their utmost - and the will to do so. Just for the records: A couple of weeks ago, I made a kobold warlock who trampled over just about everything the DM thought up - while the druid, the fighter and the sorceress were usually near death. What I want to say: You can use practically every class to "break" the game. But just because you CAN do something doesn´t mean you SHOULD do it... Actually, I don´t think either of you will be able to convince the other of his/her/its (?!?:D ) opinion.
korcheck 07-30-07, 05:52 PM	Actually, I don´t think either of you will be able to convince the other of his/her/its (?!?:D ) opinion. Actually you're right he couldn't, but I wasn't asking for convincing only justification. You can't go into a discussion, make a bold face statement that druids are the best and can beat any other class and not be expected to back it up. I don't disagree with him or any of the others on here for the most part (Except that they should never be nerfed) but I won't let a statement like that go unchallenged. I want facts is all, I have given facts on why I think a rogue is better or why other builds are better at what they do so I want something more than "they can do more" or "there better at more things." I got these answers on the OP boards btw but not how some on here might think they would answer. And you are right Darak that is what they said on the OP board as well.... Basically druids are powerful but shouldn't be nerfed the other classes should be brought up to par. This is precisely what all the other classes from the other books are trying to do I think.
androkguz 07-30-07, 11:49 PM	So the druid is much more good than the fighter in what the druid is good than the fighter is better than the druid in what the fighter is good. The druid is better in what the fighter is good than the fighter is good in what the druid is good. And besides, the druid is better than the fighter in more things. That text was intentionaly writen in a confusing way, so if that's the part you had a hard time getting, then there's no need to forgive me for being venezuelan. If not, then ins jult me just like you would with anyone else. :D (by the way, no more jokes about comunism please, I'm living the nightmare in my country and DnD is my escape to that, don't ruin it) The druid is "overpowered"? Maybe. If you know what you´re doing. BIG "if"... I know at least three guys who couldn´t make an efficient druid if their life depended on it. It requires the knowledge, the ability to use the rules to their utmost - and the will to do so. Just for the records: A couple of weeks ago, I made a kobold warlock who trampled over just about everything the DM thought up - while the druid, the fighter and the sorceress were usually near death. What I want to say: You can use practically every class to "break" the game. But just because you CAN do something doesn´t mean you SHOULD do it... Actually, I don´t think either of you will be able to convince the other of his/her/its (?!?:D ) opinion. Yeah, you're right, a character is as good as it's player. Yet I think that the druid has more potential than the fighter. And I will have to stop at that point. I love the concept of the fighter and the idea of a class whose class features are just "bonus feat". I love it because it's very easy to customize. I love it because you can create many diferent characters of the same class. I love it because, it's a fighter. I mean, it's a knight, a gladiator, a chainflinger, an archer. It's a hundred diferent cool guys (and chicks). But I think that the class is weak when compared to some others like the druid. Yet I play fighters and simply try to have fun and get the best out of it because it's such a cool class. That's why I think that even if there was an unbalance between the classes, as long as it's not too big, people would still use the weaker classes because DnD is not really a competitive game. I personally think that the druid shouldn't be nerfed. It should better be more focused. I mean, it would also better for the game (as I see it) if instead of having spellcasters that comune with nature as a whole (which is a very big whole), we could better have a druid of fire, a druid of wolves, a druid of the wind, a druid of insects, etc. I would take some abilities from them and make each better in something... or at least about something (other than "nature", that's too much for me) Just thinking... Also, about the moonspeaker. How about yo do the following, you increase by 50% or by 100% each of the special qualities granted by the moons... but you only alow them while the respective moon is on the sky. At least that won't work during the day and you would have a character more interested in the in-game. Bad news is that you'ld have to keep track of the freaking sky but that's just an idea.
Nightshade 08-03-07, 06:19 PM	Getting back to the Moonspeaker... The class is powerful, definitely. But it's not too too powerful because the Shifter gives up some wild shaping abilities. However, it requires some slight tinkering. I would simply do this: Resistance 10 to one energy type at lvl 2 Resistance 20 to same energy type (replaces Resistance 10 to second energy type) Energy Immunity That's it, IMO.
Werebat 08-10-07, 08:52 PM	And you are right Darak that is what they said on the OP board as well.... Basically druids are powerful but shouldn't be nerfed the other classes should be brought up to par. "Oh, gee, Bert, now the SORCERER is just a little bit more powerful than the other classes... Guess we'll have to add a little more power to the rest of them again, huh, Bert?" - Ron ^*^