The one thing I don't understand about Artificers [Archive] - Wizards Community

The one thing I don't understand about Artificers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rekko
09-01-07, 12:08 PM I've read through the whole Unofficial Artificer's Guide 3.0 (BTW, thanks Edy) and ran a search on the boards to figure this out, but I haven't. So I now turn to asking the board members in this thread.

The one thing I don't understand about Artificers is what is the benefits of a one level dip into an arcane or divine spellcasting class?

I'm not so sure on how this dip works. I know it will give you a spell list, but what is the purpose of a spell list if you are only a one level cleric or a one level wizard? Moreover, can you take a one level dip into psion for a power list (if playing a Psionic Artificer)? What about Clerics with the Magic Domain?

Is it only to be considered an arcane or divine spellcaster to freely use magic item without use magic device? Or, there's something else?

Thank you all!

Rekko
gensuke626
09-01-07, 06:14 PM If I remember correctly, the main reason that you dip into a given class either arcane or Divine (Or a Magic domained cleric) is so that you can ignore needing to make UMD rolls for the wands you inevitably carry. If I recall correctly...wands can be used as long as the spell appears on your spell list...so having access to arcane and divine spell lists suddenly means that you have nearly unlimited access to wands and staves.
Rekko
09-01-07, 11:38 PM Is there a difference between a spell list and being able to cast a spell because you know of it?
Lathi
09-02-07, 04:27 AM It's a nit-picky difference, but it matters as far as the rules go. Having it on a class spell list presumably means you've been equipped with the basic talent and/or know-how to potentially cast that spell in the future (even if you never intend on taking your studies far enough to do so) and how to activate items that replicate spells from your tradition. Just knowing about a spell (even if someone explains the formula to you in excruciating detail) doesn't help because you lack that certain something actual training brings to the table. Most Fighters probably know about Magic Missile, but none of them will ever be able to cast it without taking a level in Sorcerer or something. Similarly, they lack the ability to perform whatever mental gymnastics it takes to trigger magical items instinctively.

For example, a wizard can make a wand of Fireball because he either knows the spell himself or knows enough to transfer the necessary particulars from a scroll some other wizard wrote. It's an arcane spell, and he knows how arcane spells (and arcane spell items) work. So when he goes to activate it later, he's got the proper training and mindset to do it without a second thought.

An Artificer can also make a wand that casts Fireball. But since her understanding of how magic works is completely different, she has to go at it the long way 'round. And when she goes to activate it later, she's got to make a conscious effort to apply her training and ability in enough of a wizard-like manner to get the thing to work. But if she's had actual wizard training, she's got the trick to make wands cast arcane spells right there in her head (maybe they know some shortcut you don't learn in UMD class), and can then activate it with no problem.
Rekko
09-02-07, 08:33 AM All right, so if I understand correctly, if I play a Cleric[Magic Domain]1/ArtificerX, that character will never have to use the Use Magic Device skill for activating ANY spell completion and spell trigger item. Thus, Use Magic Device becomes a dull skill unless you are crafting items of 2nd level spells or higher.

Rekko
gensuke626
09-02-07, 07:31 PM Not completely, but you're getting there.

Spell completion items still require a UMD roll, because you need to be a certain level of cater to cast out of a scroll if I remember correctly. Wands and staves are now always safe for you to use, but scrolls, schema, and maybe something else I'm not aware of still require UMD rolls.

But even if you go that route, UMD is still your most valuable skill because it runs your Magic creation ability. Even if you only want to make level 1 items, you should aim to raise your UMD check so you can auto-pass any rolls you need to make.
Dr. Benway
09-04-07, 11:17 PM All right, so if I understand correctly, if I play a Cleric[Magic Domain]1/ArtificerX, that character will never have to use the Use Magic Device skill for activating ANY spell completion and spell trigger item. Thus, Use Magic Device becomes a dull skill unless you are crafting items of 2nd level spells or higher.

Rekko

Any item a Cleric or Wizard(or Sorc) could. Yep. Pretty hot all around.

DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Rekko
09-05-07, 10:43 AM Thanks, now I understand how the level dip works. However, it says in the Unofficial Artificer's Guide (under both the Skills Synergies and Artisan Bonus descriptions) that an artificer can gain a +2 on UMD checks when they previously activated the device. Where is source for that?

Rekko
Kinger
09-05-07, 02:59 PM Thanks, now I understand how the level dip works. However, it says in the Unofficial Artificer's Guide (under both the Skills Synergies and Artisan Bonus descriptions) that an artificer can gain a +2 on UMD checks when they previously activated the device. Where is source for that?

Rekko

The Use Magic Device skill description in the Player's Handbook, I believe.
Rekko
09-05-07, 03:38 PM Correct, but in the way it is written, I think you will benefit the +2 only when you already suceeded in Activating the device Blindly and are trying to activate it blindly a second time.

Thoughts?

Rekko
Kinger
09-05-07, 03:43 PM Correct, but in the way it is written, I think you will benefit the +2 only when you already suceeded in Activating the device Blindly and are trying to activate it blindly a second time.

Thoughts?

Rekko

Well, when else will you need to make a UMD check? :)

If you have the spell on your spell list, you don't need to make a UMD check at all, so the bonus is irrelevant whether it applies or not.
If you don't have the spell on your spell list, you're activating the wand blindly anyway, so you get your bonus provided you've done it before. Even if you know the command word, you're still activating blindly regardless of how many times you've succeeded or failed.
Rekko
09-06-07, 09:53 AM You activate blindly a wand or scroll (DC25) that you have no idea what's in it. However, you once the wand is identified you activate normally the wand emulating the class abilities required for it, thus, you activate a wand (DC20) or a scroll (DC20+CL).

The reason why there might not be a +2 bonus for activating wands you already activated is because the DC dropped by 5, and since scrolls are spell completion items (usable once) it is irrelevant to apply the +2 bonus to activate it a second time.

Rekko
Kinger
09-06-07, 04:06 PM Ah, right. Apologies, my knowledge of UMD is not as comprehensive as I thought.

Ask me about grapple checks instead. ;)
Rekko
09-06-07, 05:06 PM Ah, right. Apologies, my knowledge of UMD is not as comprehensive as I thought.

Ask me about grapple checks instead. ;)

The thing is, I'm not 100% sure, but it would make sense not to apply the bonus.

Hum, how does grapple work? What can you do to make it effective and use grapple instead of your sword? :P

Rekko

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rekko 09-01-07, 12:08 PM	I've read through the whole Unofficial Artificer's Guide 3.0 (BTW, thanks Edy) and ran a search on the boards to figure this out, but I haven't. So I now turn to asking the board members in this thread. The one thing I don't understand about Artificers is what is the benefits of a one level dip into an arcane or divine spellcasting class? I'm not so sure on how this dip works. I know it will give you a spell list, but what is the purpose of a spell list if you are only a one level cleric or a one level wizard? Moreover, can you take a one level dip into psion for a power list (if playing a Psionic Artificer)? What about Clerics with the Magic Domain? Is it only to be considered an arcane or divine spellcaster to freely use magic item without use magic device? Or, there's something else? Thank you all! Rekko
gensuke626 09-01-07, 06:14 PM	If I remember correctly, the main reason that you dip into a given class either arcane or Divine (Or a Magic domained cleric) is so that you can ignore needing to make UMD rolls for the wands you inevitably carry. If I recall correctly...wands can be used as long as the spell appears on your spell list...so having access to arcane and divine spell lists suddenly means that you have nearly unlimited access to wands and staves.
Rekko 09-01-07, 11:38 PM	Is there a difference between a spell list and being able to cast a spell because you know of it?
Lathi 09-02-07, 04:27 AM	It's a nit-picky difference, but it matters as far as the rules go. Having it on a class spell list presumably means you've been equipped with the basic talent and/or know-how to potentially cast that spell in the future (even if you never intend on taking your studies far enough to do so) and how to activate items that replicate spells from your tradition. Just knowing about a spell (even if someone explains the formula to you in excruciating detail) doesn't help because you lack that certain something actual training brings to the table. Most Fighters probably know about Magic Missile, but none of them will ever be able to cast it without taking a level in Sorcerer or something. Similarly, they lack the ability to perform whatever mental gymnastics it takes to trigger magical items instinctively. For example, a wizard can make a wand of Fireball because he either knows the spell himself or knows enough to transfer the necessary particulars from a scroll some other wizard wrote. It's an arcane spell, and he knows how arcane spells (and arcane spell items) work. So when he goes to activate it later, he's got the proper training and mindset to do it without a second thought. An Artificer can also make a wand that casts Fireball. But since her understanding of how magic works is completely different, she has to go at it the long way 'round. And when she goes to activate it later, she's got to make a conscious effort to apply her training and ability in enough of a wizard-like manner to get the thing to work. But if she's had actual wizard training, she's got the trick to make wands cast arcane spells right there in her head (maybe they know some shortcut you don't learn in UMD class), and can then activate it with no problem.
Rekko 09-02-07, 08:33 AM	All right, so if I understand correctly, if I play a Cleric[Magic Domain]1/ArtificerX, that character will never have to use the Use Magic Device skill for activating ANY spell completion and spell trigger item. Thus, Use Magic Device becomes a dull skill unless you are crafting items of 2nd level spells or higher. Rekko
gensuke626 09-02-07, 07:31 PM	Not completely, but you're getting there. Spell completion items still require a UMD roll, because you need to be a certain level of cater to cast out of a scroll if I remember correctly. Wands and staves are now always safe for you to use, but scrolls, schema, and maybe something else I'm not aware of still require UMD rolls. But even if you go that route, UMD is still your most valuable skill because it runs your Magic creation ability. Even if you only want to make level 1 items, you should aim to raise your UMD check so you can auto-pass any rolls you need to make.
Dr. Benway 09-04-07, 11:17 PM	All right, so if I understand correctly, if I play a Cleric[Magic Domain]1/ArtificerX, that character will never have to use the Use Magic Device skill for activating ANY spell completion and spell trigger item. Thus, Use Magic Device becomes a dull skill unless you are crafting items of 2nd level spells or higher. Rekko Any item a Cleric or Wizard(or Sorc) could. Yep. Pretty hot all around. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Rekko 09-05-07, 10:43 AM	Thanks, now I understand how the level dip works. However, it says in the Unofficial Artificer's Guide (under both the Skills Synergies and Artisan Bonus descriptions) that an artificer can gain a +2 on UMD checks when they previously activated the device. Where is source for that? Rekko
Kinger 09-05-07, 02:59 PM	Thanks, now I understand how the level dip works. However, it says in the Unofficial Artificer's Guide (under both the Skills Synergies and Artisan Bonus descriptions) that an artificer can gain a +2 on UMD checks when they previously activated the device. Where is source for that? Rekko The Use Magic Device skill description in the Player's Handbook, I believe.
Rekko 09-05-07, 03:38 PM	Correct, but in the way it is written, I think you will benefit the +2 only when you already suceeded in Activating the device Blindly and are trying to activate it blindly a second time. Thoughts? Rekko
Kinger 09-05-07, 03:43 PM	Correct, but in the way it is written, I think you will benefit the +2 only when you already suceeded in Activating the device Blindly and are trying to activate it blindly a second time. Thoughts? Rekko Well, when else will you need to make a UMD check? :) If you have the spell on your spell list, you don't need to make a UMD check at all, so the bonus is irrelevant whether it applies or not. If you don't have the spell on your spell list, you're activating the wand blindly anyway, so you get your bonus provided you've done it before. Even if you know the command word, you're still activating blindly regardless of how many times you've succeeded or failed.
Rekko 09-06-07, 09:53 AM	You activate blindly a wand or scroll (DC25) that you have no idea what's in it. However, you once the wand is identified you activate normally the wand emulating the class abilities required for it, thus, you activate a wand (DC20) or a scroll (DC20+CL). The reason why there might not be a +2 bonus for activating wands you already activated is because the DC dropped by 5, and since scrolls are spell completion items (usable once) it is irrelevant to apply the +2 bonus to activate it a second time. Rekko
Kinger 09-06-07, 04:06 PM	Ah, right. Apologies, my knowledge of UMD is not as comprehensive as I thought. Ask me about grapple checks instead. ;)
Rekko 09-06-07, 05:06 PM	Ah, right. Apologies, my knowledge of UMD is not as comprehensive as I thought. Ask me about grapple checks instead. ;) The thing is, I'm not 100% sure, but it would make sense not to apply the bonus. Hum, how does grapple work? What can you do to make it effective and use grapple instead of your sword? :P Rekko