Post/Author/DateTime	Post
angelofsorrow66 02-17-08, 06:06 PM	ok, so i have a question about binders, shadowcasters, and truenamers in eberron. how do i incorperate them? I would assume that Binders are evil to the soveriegn host and worth killing to the silver flame. what about other groups, and how wold they come into being? shadowcasters are enigmatic at best, sowhat would, say, a paladin of the silver flame feel if he foundout one of his comrades was a shadowcaster? would truenamers study the draconic prophecy, or would they stick to truenames? how do, say, dragons feel about truenamers?
vegetalss4 02-18-08, 08:41 AM	these are some interesting questions i will think a bit of them then come back with a possible answer
Fabius Maximus 02-18-08, 10:37 AM	Binders could be aligned to the Dark Six, most likely to the Keeper, who allows powerful souls a modicum of existance so that they are available as vestiges. That makes Binders not automatically evil. But those who value life itself persue them Binders for creating something of an abomination (since vestiges exist between life and death). Flamers hate Binders for preventing the merging of worthy souls with the Flame. I imagine Truenamers are tied to the church of Aureon, maybe as a special order of monks. Dragons invented truenaming techniques to have an edge over the Rhakshasa, and agents of the Chamber taught mortals said techniques.
dsivis 02-18-08, 12:26 PM	Yeah, and Shadowcasters gotta be devotees to The Shadow, just like Wizards tend to venerate Aureon.
Edymnion 02-18-08, 12:43 PM	I have truenaming be the language of the progenitors, and the only ones that know it are the Dragons and the Undying Council.
Syltorian 02-18-08, 02:35 PM	I would assume that Binders are evil to the soveriegn host and worth killing to the silver flame. what about other groups, and how wold they come into being? I like the idea of the worshippers of the Keeper seeing vestiges as souls stolen (or saved) by their deity. However, I could also see Binding being part of the Valenar tradition: perhaps simply rewriting the fluff part of the vestiges and turn them into ancestral heroes will work. I am not sure how that fits with multiple vestiges, though. shadowcasters are enigmatic at best, sowhat would, say, a paladin of the silver flame feel if he foundout one of his comrades was a shadowcaster? I have never really considered the shadowcasters to be evil. A paladin of the Silver Flame might see shadowcasters as enemies of his faith, or accept that the forces they manipulate are not evil in themselves. Mabar represents the evil darkness, not the Plane of Shadows; darkness in itself is not evil, except as a metaphora. I'd associate them with either the Umbragen (and their ties to the Umbra, which may or may not be the Shadow), or, preferably, with the Houses of Shadow. Many of the powers work quite well for spying, assassination and even weaving illusions, and the magical heritage of Phiarlan and Thuranni, together with their tie to shadows through their mark, could have opened the way to this unconventional magic. As an aside to this, I had an idea for a Phiarlan shadowcaster some time ago: basically, she obtained these powers because she tried to shadow-walk (as per the dragonmark) to escape the Mourning, but she was caught between two planes as it hid. She survived, but is not quite humanoid any longer. Nobody understands what happened (any more than they understand anything about the Mourning), she doesn't know anything either, but Phiarlan is tentatively appreciating her powers. She's not evil, and not intentionally pursuing this path, so a paladin would probably not kill her... more fanatic but less pure followers of the Flame might consider her an abomination; after all, many lycanthropes were not guilty of malice aforethought, either. With some modification for a unique enemy, change references to Shadow to mentions of Mist, and you have a small group of people who draw on the energies of the Mourning (likely without knowing how they do it). This works better for NPCs than for PCs. If you want to connect the shadowcasters with Mabar and with evil powers, there are the Nightbringers in FoE who could have been taught the arts by entities from Mabar and studies in the Gloaming. would truenamers study the draconic prophecy, or would they stick to truenames? how do, say, dragons feel about truenamers? I would connect truenamers to the Prophecy, yes. The dragons will know it, and, like Edy said, the Undying Court as well. Possibly, the giants developed it far enough to learn the truename of an entire plane, giving them their disastrous power, and if that is the case, the Eyes of Chronepsis will be very quick to destroy any mortal who finds out about this power. Alternatively, I could see truenaming as a kind of magic which has survived in Adar... largely based on the name of the leader of the magicians there, the Keeper of the Word. Adar is said to hold huge libraries of forgotten lore: collections of truenames may be amongst them, and may account for much of the destruction wreaked in the Sarlonan mage-wars (and the release of the Syrkarn Rajah, perhaps?).
Siran Dunmorgan 02-18-08, 02:47 PM	Okay, so I have a question about binders, shadowcasters, and truenamers in Eberron: how do I incorporate them? I would assume that Binders are evil to the Sovereign Host and worth killing to the Silver Flame. what about other groups, and how would they come into being? Shadowcasters are enigmatic at best, so what would, say, a paladin of the Silver Flame feel if he found out that one of his comrades was a shadowcaster? Would truenamers study the draconic prophecy, or would they stick to truenames? How do, say, dragons feel about truenamers? How do you incorporate them? There are a variety of possible answers to those questions. First off, binders: yes, the Silver Flame would probably find binders problematical, not because they are inherently evil (they aren't) or because they deny the gods (the Silver Flame isn't a god, either), but because they encourage the overlaying of one's self with another. The Silver Flame had approximately the same issue with Lycanthropes a few years back. The difference is that binding magic doesn't spread by bite, and the binder is more or less aware of what he's doing. With respect to the role of binders in the world, one needs to develop an understanding of where the vestiges come from, and how and when the first pacts were made. The vestiges may indeed be as described, verbatim, in Tome of Magic, in which case most of them are of Khorvarian or Sarlonan origin; personally, I would suspect that the ancestral source of binding magic was on Sarlona in the old days. They seem to be only a minor influence in magic in the modern era; there may be a few binders in the Arcane Congress, for example. The principal difficulty is that pact management is, in a sense, outside of the range of behaviors with which most people are comfortable: it's giving up too much of yourself. At least one of the binder-associated classes has new meaning in the Eberron Campaign Setting, by the way: the Witch Slayer's abilities should work perfectly against Kalashtar and Inspired as well as binders. Shadowcasters are, obviously, associated with shadow; not necessarily The Shadow of the Dark Six, but the same power bound into drow, that makes them different from elves, or that transformed the Umbragen in the ancent days of Xen'drik. In the modern era, there are a few people who understand something of that power: again, it would surprise me if there were not a few among the Arcane Congress or even the Twelve who have some levels in Shadowcaster. This is a little different than the situation with binders: I suspect that the Twelve would not have much to do with binding, while Houses Thuranni and Phiarlan—bearing as they do the Mark of Shadow—have something of a connection with this power already. Something of this may reach back to the pre-history of Xen'drik as well. The best fit for truenamers is similar to what Edymnion has already described: it is something studied by the dragons as the language of naming is related to the Prophecy, to the dragonmarks, and to the fate of the world as a whole, but I suspect it of being only part of the complex of issues surrounding the Prophecy, e.g. the language of the Druids is also related in complex ways to draconic, the dragonmarks, and the language of true names. It is a much more esoteric study than traditional arcane engineering, and, while much theorized about in the Arcane Congress, and investigated among the Twelve, is the sort of thing one might find more properly used among the Seren, for example, or among the Keepers of the Word in Adar, or a few other widely scattered groups: there are probably a few Truenamers among the Lords of Dust, for example—the mere suggestion of which should be enough to send shivers through your players. —Siran Dunmorgan
angelofsorrow66 02-18-08, 06:57 PM	I like the idea of the worshippers of the Keeper seeing vestiges as souls stolen (or saved) by their deity. However, I could also see Binding being part of the Valenar tradition: perhaps simply rewriting the fluff part of the vestiges and turn them into ancestral heroes will work. I am not sure how that fits with multiple vestiges, though. I have never really considered the shadowcasters to be evil. A paladin of the Silver Flame might see shadowcasters as enemies of his faith, or accept that the forces they manipulate are not evil in themselves. Mabar represents the evil darkness, not the Plane of Shadows; darkness in itself is not evil, except as a metaphora. I'd associate them with either the Umbragen (and their ties to the Umbra, which may or may not be the Shadow), or, preferably, with the Houses of Shadow. Many of the powers work quite well for spying, assassination and even weaving illusions, and the magical heritage of Phiarlan and Thuranni, together with their tie to shadows through their mark, could have opened the way to this unconventional magic. As an aside to this, I had an idea for a Phiarlan shadowcaster some time ago: basically, she obtained these powers because she tried to shadow-walk (as per the dragonmark) to escape the Mourning, but she was caught between two planes as it hid. She survived, but is not quite humanoid any longer. Nobody understands what happened (any more than they understand anything about the Mourning), she doesn't know anything either, but Phiarlan is tentatively appreciating her powers. She's not evil, and not intentionally pursuing this path, so a paladin would probably not kill her... more fanatic but less pure followers of the Flame might consider her an abomination; after all, many lycanthropes were not guilty of malice aforethought, either. With some modification for a unique enemy, change references to Shadow to mentions of Mist, and you have a small group of people who draw on the energies of the Mourning (likely without knowing how they do it). This works better for NPCs than for PCs. If you want to connect the shadowcasters with Mabar and with evil powers, there are the Nightbringers in FoE who could have been taught the arts by entities from Mabar and studies in the Gloaming. I would connect truenamers to the Prophecy, yes. The dragons will know it, and, like Edy said, the Undying Court as well. Possibly, the giants developed it far enough to learn the truename of an entire plane, giving them their disastrous power, and if that is the case, the Eyes of Chronepsis will be very quick to destroy any mortal who finds out about this power. Alternatively, I could see truenaming as a kind of magic which has survived in Adar... largely based on the name of the leader of the magicians there, the Keeper of the Word. Adar is said to hold huge libraries of forgotten lore: collections of truenames may be amongst them, and may account for much of the destruction wreaked in the Sarlonan mage-wars (and the release of the Syrkarn Rajah, perhaps?). i like the idea of shadowcasters stemming from the Houses of Shadow, and i'll incorperate that in my next adventure. what do you think about repalcing the spell-like abilities of the shadow mark with mysteries?
Edymnion 02-19-08, 12:35 PM	I would connect truenamers to the Prophecy, yes. The dragons will know it, and, like Edy said, the Undying Court as well. Possibly, the giants developed it far enough to learn the truename of an entire plane, giving them their disastrous power, and if that is the case, the Eyes of Chronepsis will be very quick to destroy any mortal who finds out about this power. This is how I handle it: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14434922
Syltorian 02-19-08, 03:34 PM	This is how I handle it: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14434922 Very interesting, Edy. I especially like the idea of the ship sailing into the heart of Xen'drik. Some questions, though: where do you fit the Mournland mutations in? If Cyre was unnamed, why do ruins and artefacts remain behind? Or was it renamed, rather than unnamed?
vegetalss4 02-19-08, 03:41 PM	i think that i will suport the idea of truespeak being connected with the Prophecy. Binders i see as they are in tome of magic as their fluff, i feel, is setting neutral, i also see the silver flame as being the religion that have most witch hunters, as their power is also very useful ageints possesing demons, their sworn enemy. that order made out of 4 religions who is normaly enimies sound like a good idea i think the religions in eberron should be, the silver flame, an cult of the Keeper, dol Arrah and Aureon shadow magic, well i think there are some really good ideas in here Edit: oh and Edy would that mean that the mournland could, theorectically be renamed and as so become livable agein? because if it is so then that would be and good posible ending
angelofsorrow66 02-20-08, 07:26 PM	This is how I handle it: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14434922 ........ ........ ........ ........ .....wow you dont mind if I use that , Do you?
Edymnion 02-21-08, 08:52 AM	Very interesting, Edy. I especially like the idea of the ship sailing into the heart of Xen'drik. Some questions, though: where do you fit the Mournland mutations in?Make them about 5 times bigger. ;)If Cyre was unnamed, why do ruins and artefacts remain behind? Or was it renamed, rather than unnamed?I don't recall reading that unnaming someone completely erased them from the universe, just that it destroys them, that there would still be some sort of remains. As for artifacts, that would depend, do you consider your car to be part of your country? Could easily destroy the country, while not directly affecting individual objects.you dont mind if I use that , Do you?Not at all, just send the royalty check to... :P
Syltorian 02-21-08, 11:00 AM	Make them about 5 times bigger. ;) Lol! Good answer. Though what I meant is, how do you account for the presence of mutations in the Cyran Mournland? If Cyre was destroyed, why were some creatures transformed, rather than killed? Or is that merely a side-effect of the magic loose in that area? Did it only happen where the draconic magic found other magic present, and created a strange reaction as the two combined? I don't recall reading that unnaming someone completely erased them from the universe, just that it destroys them, that there would still be some sort of remains. To be honest, I had not read what unnaming means in the ToM sense, but was going by how it sounded to me, adducing some half-remembered Belgariad memories (or wherever that stone in Edding's novels appeared which could create/unname things). If unnaming is destruction rather than convincing reality that your target never existed, there is no problem. As for artifacts, that would depend, do you consider your car to be part of your country? Could easily destroy the country, while not directly affecting individual objects.Not at all, just send the royalty check to... :P You'd first have to create my car. Or maybe you have unnamed it so well that I don't remember having had one myself! :D I concede the point; artefacts and objects are not really what the country is. Still, it leaves the question as to how you define the country... landscape, cities, political institutions, people... Just some random musings.
Soltares 02-21-08, 11:53 AM	the same power bound into drow, that makes them different from elves, or that transformed the Umbragen in the ancent days of Xen'drik. Houses Thuranni and Phiarlan—bearing as they do the Mark of Shadow—have something of a connection with this power already. Something of this may reach back to the pre-history of Xen'drik as well. Some sort of shadowy (pun intended) connection between the Shadow-marked elven houses, the Umbragen and Shadowcaster lore seems to be the way to go here. There was a time of shadow, and few elves went untouched.
Edymnion 02-21-08, 01:07 PM	Lol! Good answer. Though what I meant is, how do you account for the presence of mutations in the Cyran Mournland? If Cyre was destroyed, why were some creatures transformed, rather than killed? Or is that merely a side-effect of the magic loose in that area? Did it only happen where the draconic magic found other magic present, and created a strange reaction as the two combined? Maybe some Cyrians saw it coming, and were attempting to change their nation's Truename as a defense, but didn't get it done in time. Maybe they got just enough of it started to put their names in flux, but not enough to change them. So, when everything got unnamed, some people/places/etc weren't destroyed, but the two naming magics clashed and that mutants are what we got as a result.
Syltorian 02-21-08, 01:36 PM	Maybe some Cyrians saw it coming, and were attempting to change their nation's Truename as a defense, but didn't get it done in time. Maybe they got just enough of it started to put their names in flux, but not enough to change them. So, when everything got unnamed, some people/places/etc weren't destroyed, but the two naming magics clashed and that mutants are what we got as a result. That's a great solution. It could also help explain why some buildings in Metrol were not so much destroyed as simply appearing in the wrong place or wrong alignment... if the truenames got twisted by the Cyran countermeasures.
AlHazred 02-21-08, 08:16 PM	Maybe some Cyrians saw it coming, and were attempting to change their nation's Truename as a defense, but didn't get it done in time. Maybe they got just enough of it started to put their names in flux, but not enough to change them. So, when everything got unnamed, some people/places/etc weren't destroyed, but the two naming magics clashed and that mutants are what we got as a result. Maybe some of them weren't actually Cyran nationals, or had a distinct magical identity? Maybe Unnaming rips apart your history, makes you not actually part of the world, and therefore subject to outside, unnatural forces?
vegetalss4 02-23-08, 03:29 AM	I don't recall reading that unnaming someone completely erased them from the universe, just that it destroys them, that there would still be some sort of remains actuly thats just was the spell Unname does, they just disapear, no flash, no fire and no corpse. but agein that spell can only target creatures, so it must be another spell/utterance that did it
BrotherDog 02-27-08, 04:29 AM	Binders could/should be very much a part of the Silver Flame and Ash'T'kala, binding with the celestial and noble spirits that dedicated and/or gave their lives to protect life on Eberron. Going that lame evil route just lacks imagination and is a sad waste of other oppourtunities. But then again, if you want those religions to have that evil Spanish Inqizition feel, go right ahead. Another option could be that the player is being contacted and taught by a vestige of a Coatl and is a completely new idea and practice to the region.
Thaliost 02-27-08, 02:18 PM	I recall truenamers are mentioned somewhere in "the forge of war". But I have to refer back to the book again.
AlHazred 02-28-08, 09:01 PM	Now that I've read the relevant portion of ToM, I think there could be a number of effective binder traditions in Eberron, much like there are different sources of power for warlocks (Umbra/Shadow, Khyber, etc.) All binders bind to the same Vestiges, though people from different cultures have different names for them, and believe different things of the binders themselves. In the Shadow Marches, the Cult of Ruin believes that they can tap into the mystical remnants of the power of the Elder Evils, the rakshasa rajahs that the dragons have trapped in Khyber. Through rituals designed to appease these angry spirits, an understanding of the symbolic arcane language underlying so-called "reality," and a healthy dose of personal willpower and chutzpah, cultists draw elements of these powers to themselves. In Io'lokar, a reclusive school of magic called the Shard Gatherers collect lore regarding the spiritual remains of legendary dragons slain in the war with the spawn of Khyber; they believe that these ancient evils were of such titanic power that they almost eradicated their foes from existence. In any case, I would make different legends for the same Vestiges, depending on what tradition we were talking about. Each tradition should also have one or two "special" Vestiges that maybe only they seem to call. Just so long as no one actually knows what's really going on.
angelofsorrow66 03-04-08, 08:18 PM	I thank everyone who has posted on this thread, and i hate to bother you on more of these matters, but what do you think about dragonmarks, and abberant ones, and the classes? again, thanks everyone