Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wizardguy2003 06-19-07, 11:48 PM	I have a player who wants to create a werewolf character for my Eberron campaign. Being a person who likes to have control over every aspect of their character's personality, he wishes it to be a "true" were as opposed to afflicted. It occurred to me though that in a one moon world the concept of the selfcontrol of a true lycan makes pretty good sense, but in one with 12 moons I would think that is not always the case. Does this seem reasonable to anyone else, and if so I could really use some ideas on the kind of effects the moons could have. The official word would be ideal, since the person in question has definate rule lawyer tendencies. He's always been a fantastic roleplayer and a fun addition to my groups though, so I cut him slack in that regard. :D
Rechan 06-19-07, 11:54 PM	The issue with Afflicted is that they can't control themselves. They're running on pure instinct. True lycanthropes have been that way since birth. They've lived in Eberron with its moons all of their lives, so they should be a lot more tolerant. The question is: what do you think the moons would do them? And it's also important to note that a True lycanthrope doesn't have to be the alignment designated to them. How I would handle this would have him roll to resist impulses. Basically "I want to do this, but I KNOW I shouldn't". Someone taunts him, maybe he should have to roll to resist doing something about it. You might have him integrate this into his character, so he's more impulsive and goes with his flow rather than any ideals. Of course, as a lycanthrope, he has to fear exposure.
Alex_ 06-20-07, 12:45 AM	The many moons of Eberron is one of the reasons, amongst many, why people, especially the Silver Flame, take lycantrhopy so seriously. Their existence means that Lycantropes will spend a good chunk of their time in their hybrid/animal forms.
Rechan 06-20-07, 12:51 AM	The many moons of Eberron is one of the reasons, amongst many, why people, especially the Silver Flame, take lycantrhopy so seriously. Their existence means that Lycantropes will spend a good chunk of their time in their hybrid/animal forms. Given that this topic is about true lycanthropes. Since when are true lycanthropes limited to changing into their animal form when the Moon is full?
wizardguy2003 06-20-07, 01:04 AM	The idea that I am sort of playing around with is that each moon represents a different personality/emotional trait that corresponds to the mythos of the moons themselves. The waxing and waning of each one either increases or decreases the trait associated with it in the lycan. I was thinking this could add an unpredictable nature to the character without removing the self control aspect of a True Lycan.
Rechan 06-20-07, 01:09 AM	Given that the moons correspond with the planes (kinda), do you plan on relating the moods to those? I'm curious what happens when the moons associated with Mabar, Kythri, Dolurhh, Xoriat, and the really cold one pops up. But I do think the idea is novel.
wizardguy2003 06-20-07, 01:14 AM	That is the "sort of playing with" part of my idea. ;) I figured I would use the physical laws of each plane itself to have a corresponding effect, though in the more metaphysical sense. Of course, this is the perfect time for me to misplace my copy of the Manual of the Planes. :confused:
Neutronium_Dragon 06-20-07, 01:15 AM	Officially? Moon phases don't affect true lycanthropes, only afflicted ones, and true lycanthropes are always in full control of themselves. Now, as a matter of his own individual personality, he might want to place some significance on the moon phases, although it would probably make more sense if he was only really concerned about certain symbolically important ones, such as the one linked to Lamannia. But it wouldn't involve die rolls, just choices on his part.
wizardguy2003 06-20-07, 01:23 AM	I am more interested in a rules aspect to the effect as opposed to a RP personalty quirk that he just choses to adapt, actually. I just personally feel that with the amount of lunar events that occur on Eberron, it's a missed opportunity to give True Lycans a bit more character.
AkumaDaimyo 06-20-07, 02:27 AM	There are no rules to basically screw with him as a natural lycanthrope no. Just a massive ECL. :P Is he taking racial levels? Cause he's definitly going to have a ECL and ELC sucks to deal with. You advance more slowly because you actually need more XP than anyone else even if your the equivalent level. A "3rd" level drow still requires more xp to level up than does a 3rd level human and he also still gets xp as if he is 3rd level via classes. But if he's got the Lycanthrope racial class he could be ok but very limited in doing much that doesn't involve being a Lycanthrope.
ArcTan 06-20-07, 02:43 AM	The issue with Afflicted is that they can't control themselves. They're running on pure instinct. True lycanthropes have been that way since birth. They've lived in Eberron with its moons all of their lives, so they should be a lot more tolerant. The question is: what do you think the moons would do them? "Tolerant" has nothing to do with it. By RAW, a natural Lycanthrope always has *total* control over its transformations in D&D, without any regard for the phases of the moon. Having more moons than usual shouldn't have any effect on this. (It's not like a full moon causes them to take a penalty on Control Shape checks -- they never *make* Control Shape checks in the first place.) FWIW, we know from the fluff that natural Lycanthropes used to live in Eberron for a long time existing peacefully in the countryside without any problems, until things went south during the time of the Purge. And it's also important to note that a True lycanthrope doesn't have to be the alignment designated to them.[/quote] Er, sources? The stated alignment stat for a natural Lycanthrope is "Always X" (i.e. if the strain is Chaotic Evil, the natural Lycanthrope is Always Chaotic Evil the way a Demon is Always Chaotic Evil, with exceptions being as rare as they are for Demons).
ArcTan 06-20-07, 02:43 AM	The many moons of Eberron is one of the reasons, amongst many, why people, especially the Silver Flame, take lycantrhopy so seriously. Their existence means that Lycantropes will spend a good chunk of their time in their hybrid/animal forms. *Only* afflicted Lycanthropes (though this may have changed when things went wacky during the Purge).
ArcTan 06-20-07, 02:46 AM	I am more interested in a rules aspect to the effect as opposed to a RP personalty quirk that he just choses to adapt, actually. I just personally feel that with the amount of lunar events that occur on Eberron, it's a missed opportunity to give True Lycans a bit more character. D&D natural Lycanthropes didn't have any character associated with the moon in the first place. You can invent some if you like, but it's going to be all your invention -- D&D gives you nothing to go on. An afflicted Lycanthrope's personailty changes with the moon *only* in that he is tugged closer to the natural alignment of his Lycanthropic strain. All natural Lycanthropes are born locked into that alignment anyway, so there's nothing to change. By the way, the locked-in alignment nature and LA of Lycanthropes already makes them difficult characters to play. Eberron as a setting makes it even harder. Unless you're living somewhere *very* well-hidden, any Lycanthropes on Khorvaire were either killed or chased onto the plane of Lamannia back in the days of the Silver Purge. Any living Lycanthropes discovered in Khorvaire today would create a huge controversy and bring massive amounts of attention to your doorstep, most of it unfriendly.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-20-07, 03:17 AM	One potential quirk with that: They'd have to be shown to be a lycanthrope, first. Eberron is full of anthropomorphic races, creatures that can take on animal form, people who can cast spells or use special abilities to take on animal form or even a hybrid form (there's even a series of spells to specifically take on a lycanthropic hybrid form without actually becoming one), and so on. Unless he does something to draw attention to the fact that he's specifically shapechanging by virtue of lycanthropy rather than because he's some druid or wizard with a penchant for "make me fuzzy" spells, most people probably won't even be able to tell the difference, especially if he's otherwise acting fairly normally and not going on a bloodthirsty rampage. After all, lycanthropes are basically gone from Khorvaire and would certainly never walk around in public in broad daylight; there must be a perfectly reasonable explanation, right? If he doesn't change shape in public, then even in hybrid form he could probably pass himself off as a lupin, or the result of a new version of the druid's Awaken spell, or the like. Especially if he's not acting strangely otherwise. For that matter, a bit of Disguise work and he could probably pass himself off as a gnoll, which is a reasonably common race. Now, magical divination might be a problem, but there are also ways to deal with that.
Identitystolen 06-20-07, 08:22 AM	One potential quirk with that: They'd have to be shown to be a lycanthrope, first. In the Dragonshard about Lycanthropy and the Purge, it was stated that House Medani created a dragonshard item that detects Lycanthrops. This help with preventing any collateral damage by incorrect identification.
Rechan 06-20-07, 09:55 AM	"Er, sources? The stated alignment stat for a natural Lycanthrope is "Always X" (i.e. if the strain is Chaotic Evil, the natural Lycanthrope is Always Chaotic Evil the way a Demon is Always Chaotic Evil, with exceptions being as rare as they are for Demons). First paragraph of the Lycanthropy and the Purge dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a): In Eberron, the alignment of a lycanthrope is not linked to her animal form. A werebear can be evil and a werewolf can be good. Lycanthropes carrying an evil strain are some of the most terrifying creatures on Eberron: While a natural werewolf may wear a human shape, she is a born predator who takes joy in spilling human blood. Those afflicted by the disease suffer a dramatic change in personality, regardless of the alignment of the victim before and after the curse. As a result, lycanthropes of all types have always been feared. Under the best circumstances, the bite of a lycanthrope means a loss of identity; in the worst, it can make a good person into a vicious killer. Also, Keith talks at length about good werewolves and the like in the thread: "Forge of War: The More things Change", as the Purge came up for about three pages in it.
NHBDY 06-20-07, 10:47 AM	I know this is somewhat offtopic, but i have a player that is an afflicted lycan, since there are 12 moons, would that mean there is a full moon every night? (my reasoning is that in the MM it says 1 moon has a full moon for 3 days, so would 12 moons be 36 days pe month of full moon, that would be all month and then some, so would there be a full moon every night?)
AkumaDaimyo 06-20-07, 10:59 AM	In the Dragonshard about Lycanthropy and the Purge, it was stated that House Medani created a dragonshard item that detects Lycanthrops. This help with preventing any collateral damage by incorrect identification. Yes, but its also stated that was near the END of the Purge, so actually tons of collateral damage had already been done so it didn't help that much.
Rechan 06-20-07, 11:20 AM	I know this is somewhat offtopic, but i have a player that is an afflicted lycan, since there are 12 moons, would that mean there is a full moon every night? (my reasoning is that in the MM it says 1 moon has a full moon for 3 days, so would 12 moons be 36 days pe month of full moon, that would be all month and then some, so would there be a full moon every night?) The Dragonshard for the Moons said there's one full about 18 days out of a month.
Symar 06-20-07, 11:21 AM	I know this is somewhat offtopic, but i have a player that is an afflicted lycan, since there are 12 moons, would that mean there is a full moon every night? (my reasoning is that in the MM it says 1 moon has a full moon for 3 days, so would 12 moons be 36 days pe month of full moon, that would be all month and then some, so would there be a full moon every night?) Only if every moon is on the exact same cycle and evenly spaced apart. Since they most likely wouldn't be, and with varying distances from the planet, they'd have different cycles. Although, most of the time probably would be a full moon, there will be times without any, and times with more than one. At least, that's my opinion.
NHBDY 06-20-07, 11:25 AM	so about half of the time would it be safe to assume that there is a full moon?
Symar 06-20-07, 11:29 AM	At least, but it's up to the DM.
wizardguy2003 06-20-07, 02:42 PM	I just remembered the wrinkle that had me thinking all this in the first place. His original idea was to be a lycan from the Ravenloft CS. Sure, an Eberron lycan would be used to the moons. I also understand that, according to RAW, true lycans are not affected because they are born with it and hense grow up with a natural control over the effect, if any, the moon may have on them. Now take this situation. A character who has lived with one moon, least for the majority of his young life, then thrust into a world sitting under 12 of them. That just seems like it "should" have some sort of effect, least in my mind.
wizardguy2003 06-20-07, 02:46 PM	Only if every moon is on the exact same cycle and evenly spaced apart. Since they most likely wouldn't be, and with varying distances from the planet, they'd have different cycles. Although, most of the time probably would be a full moon, there will be times without any, and times with more than one. At least, that's my opinion. I believe in the tools section there is a Eberron Planar Phase program that will show you how often and when the moons are full.
Symar 06-20-07, 03:06 PM	I believe in the tools section there is a Eberron Planar Phase program that will show you how often and when the moons are full. Ooh, nifty!
Neutronium_Dragon 06-20-07, 05:24 PM	> In the Dragonshard about Lycanthropy and the Purge, it was stated that > House Medani created a dragonshard item that detects Lycanthrops. This help > with preventing any collateral damage by incorrect identification. Yes, but if they're using a magical item to look, there are other magical items which can counter it (including some in the DMG). If you're seriously playing a lycanthrope character who is doing things which might arouse suspicion, having one of those counter-items would be a very good idea.
Hellcow 06-20-07, 06:39 PM	First paragraph of the Lycanthropy and the Purge dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a): In Eberron, the alignment of a lycanthrope is not linked to her animal form. A werebear can be evil and a werewolf can be good. I don't have time to rehash all the stuff from that other thread, but since my name has been invoked, I'll point to the sentence immediately following this one... Lycanthropes carrying an evil strain are some of the most terrifying creatures on Eberron: While a natural werewolf may wear a human shape, she is a born predator who takes joy in spilling human blood. Now, that says "werewolf", but it could just as easily be "werebear carrying an evil strain" (likewise, it presumes "werewolf carrying an evil strain.") It continues... A natural lycanthrope cannot be cured; the disease is a part of her body and soul, and it cannot be stripped away. The lycanthrope born into evil may find the strength to become good, but she will always feel the predator in the back of her mind, urging her to prey on the weak and innocent. The key is that you can be a natural, good lycanthrope - most good-strain lycanthropes ARE naturals, since they try not to spread the affliction. But even their behavior is influenced by it. It's simply that being born into it, having it a part of them all their life, they can adjust to it in ways the afflicted can't - hence you can have a good-aligned werebear carrying an evil strain. But it's not that he doesn't HAVE the murderous impulses; it's that he can overcome them. Same in reverse for an evil-aligned good-strain werewolf. His primal instincts drive him away from preying on intelligent creatures, from living in cities, etc - but he can fight both of these things. A natural 'thrope is certainly the way to go for a lycanthropic character (IMO). As suggested in the Purge dragonshard, I think there's a lot of interesting story potential, whether you're fighting against your alignment type or not, whether you have an arrangement with the Silver Flame (undercover werewolf!) or are "unregistered". But by the setting, naturals are deeply influenced by their lycanthropic nature; they simply hae more control over it than their afflicted counterparts. I haven't specifically ever considered the precise effects of all the moons on natural lycanthropes. Certainly they make life difficult for the afflicted, and might have similar affects on natural children. Personally, I do like the idea that the naturals can feel the moons and are affected by them in fundamental ways - but that this never FORCES them to do anything.
Rechan 06-20-07, 07:17 PM	Thank you Hellcow. But that then immediately makes me wonder: what's the ratio of Good to Evil strains? And, we're differentiating G v E strains - are there strains that specify Law versus Chaos? It's all ready been said that evil werewolves love wanton slaughter, but that, to me, is a CE sort of thing (as WW in the MM are CE (Holy acronyms, batman!)). How would LE change the behavior? Would they take on a Child of Winter attitude - only culling the weak - or would it be more structured? Same question for NE, really.
Hellcow 06-20-07, 07:35 PM	Thank you Hellcow. But that then immediately makes me wonder: what's the ratio of Good to Evil strains? Good question, and one I don't have a strong opinion on. Given that good 'thropes were more likely to flee the Purge than fight it (and those who went to Lamannia can always return), there may actually be more good strains, since some evil strains were completely annihilated. Of course, according to the dragonshard, some good strains were corrupted during the events that led to the Purge. At the end of the day, I don't have a strong opinion. Another point: It's still unclear how lycanthropy began. Thus, it's possible that new strains will spontaneously appear. And, we're differentiating G v E strains - are there strains that specify Law versus Chaos? Certainly. In my opinion, it sets both aspects. It's all ready been said that evil werewolves love wanton slaughter, but that, to me, is a CE sort of thing (as WW in the MM are CE (Holy acronyms, batman!)). How would LE change the behavior? In my opinion, it's all about structure and planning. The MM states that evil lycanthropes enjoy preying on intelligent beings, especially members of their own race (even naturals have a humanoid race). The CE 'thrope is the bloodthirsty killed who revels in wanton slaughter. The LE 'thrope, on the other hand, is (IMO) the one who's more likely to sow discord, to spread disease, to work with other 'thropes towards long-term goals. He enjoys destroying his own kind, but he sees farther ahead than simply tearing out throats. By traditional MM values, that's the wererat - schemers who lurk beneath cities. In the Purge, it's the LE 'thropes who worked to frame the shifters, laughing as the templars and shifters slaughtered one another. LEs are organized; CEs live in the moment. NEs? Never really thought about it. Somewhere in the middle. As a side note, I generally LIKE 'thrope alignment to have some bearing on the animal type. It does make more sense. I have no problem with saying that most wererat strains are evil. But you can have a warren of good wererats; it is uncertain.
Rechan 06-20-07, 07:59 PM	Another point: It's still unclear how lycanthropy began. Thus, it's possible that new strains will spontaneously appear. Huh. I recall someone claiming very adamantly that lycanthropy was caused by one of the Rajahs and that was written somewhere. In my opinion, it's all about structure and planning. The MM states that evil lycanthropes enjoy preying on intelligent beings, especially members of their own race (even naturals have a humanoid race). The CE 'thrope is the bloodthirsty killed who revels in wanton slaughter. The LE 'thrope, on the other hand, is (IMO) the one who's more likely to sow discord, to spread disease, to work with other 'thropes towards long-term goals. He enjoys destroying his own kind, but he sees farther ahead than simply tearing out throats. By traditional MM values, that's the wererat - schemers who lurk beneath cities. In the Purge, it's the LE 'thropes who worked to frame the shifters, laughing as the templars and shifters slaughtered one another. LEs are organized; CEs live in the moment. NEs? Never really thought about it. Somewhere in the middle. As a side note, I generally LIKE 'thrope alignment to have some bearing on the animal type. It does make more sense. I have no problem with saying that most wererat strains are evil. But you can have a warren of good wererats; it is uncertain. Thanks, that's fairly helpful. :) I also think that you'd have at least a few Neutral strains. Simply because animals are neutral, no matter the connotations that we put upon them (cute fuzzy things are good, creepy crawly/scary things are evil). I would expect these are more along the lines of "Hey, I'm just going to go over here, leave me alone" types, as opposed to crusading or slaughtering one way or the other. More than likely they also were the ones who fled. I would also expect a fair number having fled to Xen'Drik. I mean, where better to go to get away from the Flame than somewhere that is a no man's land? I'd even anticipate that there are lycanthrope types down there that no one's seen before. And that lets you present Afflicted Giants.
Hellcow 06-20-07, 09:03 PM	Huh. I recall someone claiming very adamantly that lycanthropy was caused by one of the Rajahs and that was written somewhere. I back this as the strongest explanation for the events leading to the Purge - a rajah who draws power from the existence of evil lycanthropes and who in turn gains greater influence over them as its power grows. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that this rajah created lycantrhopy to begin with; it could have simply corrupted it. I also think that you'd have at least a few Neutral strains. Simply because animals are neutral, no matter the connotations that we put upon them... Which is actually why in traditional D&D (having written the Complete Guide to Wererats before Eberron...) I avoid true neutral 'thropes. To me, lycanthropy is NOT natural. It's not about taking on the traits of the animal, because wolves and rats AREN'T evil; by and large they are all neutral. Thus, in my opinion, lycanthropic alignment is entirely based on human perception. It is a curse that makes you act in the manner that WE associate with the beast. Humans fear the wolf, and so the werewolf becomes something to be feared. While a creature traditionally seen as noble is more likely to produce a noble alignment. Eberron obviously takes a different approach, but I'm still fine with making the traditional alignments the most common strains for those types. I would also expect a fair number having fled to Xen'Drik. I mean, where better to go to get away from the Flame than somewhere that is a no man's land? Hence the Bilge Rats. Of course, the issue is that it may actually be far harder to get to Xen'drik than to get to another plane. The Eldeen Reaches HAS a number of soft zones to Thelanis and Lamannia; finding someone who knows how to locate these - all the while moving deeper into the woods - may be easier for a 'thrope than heading south through strange towns, booking passage, and so on. I'd even anticipate that there are lycanthrope types down there that no one's seen before. And that lets you present Afflicted Giants. Certainly.
wizardguy2003 06-20-07, 09:03 PM	First off I would like to thank you for taking the time to set some of this straight, it's really great to hear the word of the actual author of the setting as opposed to trying to guess what you were thinking or intending.:D I haven't specifically ever considered the precise effects of all the moons on natural lycanthropes. Certainly they make life difficult for the afflicted, and might have similar affects on natural children. Personally, I do like the idea that the naturals can feel the moons and are affected by them in fundamental ways - but that this never FORCES them to do anything. That is exactly what I was thinking. I don't want a radical change of alignment, or behavior that would affect thier alignment, but something more on the lines of enhancing the native personality traits or emotions that are somehow tied to the specific moon phase. I thought as a roleplay mechanism it would be great addition, and show even more so the relationship they have to the world around them.
AkumaDaimyo 06-20-07, 09:18 PM	Not just afflicted giants, afflicted drow could be there as well. I'd even think with their mindset that a afflicted drow as long as he wan't evil could be respected for his/her ability to fight and hunt. I don't suppose there are were-scorpions are there? Though a were-panther Xen-Drik drow sounds interesting. Crappy LA on that though. Kissing gaining levels goodbye. :P It's like "Hey what are you doing today?" "Oh I'm hunting down the Lord of Blades." "Wow! So your like on some epic quest to stop his evil plots from endagering Khorvaire?" "No...I just need to level. Damn ECL."
Rechan 06-20-07, 09:24 PM	Humans fear the wolf, and so the werewolf becomes something to be feared. While a creature traditionally seen as noble is more likely to produce a noble alignment. Now, are you talking about traditional western mythos? Or are you suggestiong that cultural perceptions or ideas influence lycanthrope identity? Opinions on anthropomorphized traits imposed on animals would depend on culture. Native American culture gave the wolf a lot of props. Chinese culture sees the Rat as lucky, and the Dragon as good while the West saw the Dragon as evil. Egypt had a certain reverence for snakes and crocodiles. For Eberron, the Dhakanni may revere the wolf for its power and sound military tactics as a group. The Talenta or Valenar may respect a rat for its resilience and survivability. Dwarves of the Mror Holds may see the boar as a fierce warrior who is nearly unstoppable - a great thing to venerate. Is it possible that various cultures' interpretations could influence lycanthropes associated with those cultures? So true lycanthropes whose "native" forms correlate with these groups, and who were raised near these cultures, may have a vastly different Animal Identity than those in the Civilized parts of the Five Nations, who hold more conventional Western attitudes towards the anthropomorphized traits of animals (although it wouldn't surprise me if monsters were provided that same anthropomorphization; basilisks, cockatrices, aberrations etc having attitudes associated with them; after all, the Dragonmarked Houses in the ECS have such monsters as their crests).
Rechan 06-20-07, 09:26 PM	Not just afflicted giants, afflicted drow could be there as well. I'd even think with their mindset that a afflicted drow as long as he wan't evil could be respected for his/her ability to fight and hunt. I don't suppose there are were-scorpions are there? Though a were-panther Xen-Drik drow sounds interesting. Crappy LA on that though. Kissing gaining levels goodbye. :P It's like "Hey what are you doing today?" "Oh I'm hunting down the Lord of Blades." "Wow! So your like on some epic quest to stop his evil plots from endagering Khorvaire?" "No...I just need to level. Damn ECL." I just mentioned afflicted giants because a fifteen foot tall werewolf coming at you is a lot scarier. ;) I should also note that on the Wizards site, there is a template for creating Were-vermin (Insects and arachnids).
AkumaDaimyo 06-20-07, 09:35 PM	Actually the drow could be far scarier with their Shadow powers and sneakyness vs yet another big dumb guy running at me. Keith Baker's descriptions of the first views of the drow in the Dreaming Dark series was very cool.
yrogerg 06-20-07, 09:47 PM	I just mentioned afflicted giants because a fifteen foot tall werewolf coming at you is a lot scarier. ;) I should also note that on the Wizards site, there is a template for creating Were-vermin (Insects and arachnids). Weretrolls are, perhaps, scariest.
Rechan 06-20-07, 09:51 PM	Actually the drow could be far scarier with their Shadow powers and sneakyness vs yet another big dumb guy running at me. Keith Baker's descriptions of the first views of the drow in the Dreaming Dark series was very cool. The drow with their shadow powers are the Umbragaden, who are in Xen'drik's Khyber. Weretrolls are, perhaps, scariest. :eek: Wereboar troll sounds about right. Well, that there's a nasty suggestion. Why go after humans to increase lycanthrope ranks, why not just go infect folk in Droaam? ;)
Hellcow 06-21-07, 12:27 AM	Now, are you talking about traditional western mythos? Or are you suggestiong that cultural perceptions or ideas influence lycanthrope identity? Opinions on anthropomorphized traits imposed on animals would depend on culture. Brilliant! You're absolutely right, and it's an excellent way to explain why you can have different alignment strains tied to a particular form. So the Dhakaani werewolf strain is good, while the Aundair strain (where it was feared by superstitious peasants) is evil. Since lycanthropy can be transmitted, this doesn't mean that all good werewolves would be goblinoids or located in Darguun; over the course of thousands of years, it could have migrated all the way to the Eldeen. While I'm not planning a definitive answer, I think the basic concept that lycanthropic alignment appears to be shaped by cultural perceptions of animals, which vary by culture, is a great way to explain the variety. It's not unlike the fact that a Chinese vampire is very different from a Western vampire. This goes along with the fact that you won't see werebears in Xen'drik because the people have no strong opinions about bears one way or the other - but they DO care about, say, scorpions, and so sure, you might see werescorpions. Looking to Eberron specifically, I'd still say that while the cultures may have generated the strain of lycanthropy, if the 'thrope leaves te region it still takes its strain with it. Dhakaani culture is largely gone, but the noble Dhakaani-inspired werewolves are still around. The Chinese vampire doesn't start spawning western vampires just because he's moved to New York. So as a point of genesis, I think it makes perfect sense - but I think you can get 'thropes who don't match dominant cultural perception, provided they (or their mystical ancestors) came from elsewhere.
Hellcow 06-21-07, 12:29 AM	The drow with their shadow powers are the Umbragaden, who are in Xen'drik's Khyber. Actually, the Dreaming Dark drow - the Qaltiar - are warriors who have trained to expand the use of their innate darkness ability. It could be looked at as either a variant on the scorpion wraith PrC or the Shadow Hand path of the Tome of Battle. The Umbragen take things a step farther, but they are drawing on something far beyond innate drow magic. (And before people get confused, that's "the drow who appear in the Dreaming Dark novels" not "the drow who work for the Dreaming Dark.")
Rechan 06-21-07, 01:44 AM	Brilliant! You're absolutely right, and it's an excellent way to explain why you can have different alignment strains tied to a particular form. So the Dhakaani werewolf strain is good, while the Aundair strain (where it was feared by superstitious peasants) is evil. Since lycanthropy can be transmitted, this doesn't mean that all good werewolves would be goblinoids or located in Darguun; over the course of thousands of years, it could have migrated all the way to the Eldeen. You know, this notion also fits with Eberron for one simple fact: Faith creates divine magic. You believe in something strong enough, you can derive Divine power from it. Well, you believe in something Exists hard enough, and it might exist. Or at least, influence the existance of things that are tied to that belief. You BELIEVE wolves are evil? Werewolves draw their identity and power and origin from the Idea of a wolf, and the wolf is having a Lot of Fear and Anxiety shot at it. So that is going to effect the werewolf that draws power from the Idea of a wolf. Although if this were true, perhaps if enough members of the BoV religion as a whole (or Karnath in general) believed that Undead were Okay, Good, or Acceptable, that it might influence the alignment, or effect undead in another fashion. Or perhaps with enough faith, someone might Ascend death. And if you wanted to stretch this idea even further: Mixed/aberrant marks wern't originally "evil" or corruptive. But the propaganda of the Dragonmarked Houses during and after the War of the Mark perpetuated so much cultural BELIEF that Aberrants are evil, that they became that way. Of course, this ignores any association of Aberrant marks with Khyber, and such like. Looking to Eberron specifically, I'd still say that while the cultures may have generated the strain of lycanthropy, if the 'thrope leaves te region it still takes its strain with it. Dhakaani culture is largely gone, but the noble Dhakaani-inspired werewolves are still around. The Chinese vampire doesn't start spawning western vampires just because he's moved to New York. So as a point of genesis, I think it makes perfect sense - but I think you can get 'thropes who don't match dominant cultural perception, provided they (or their mystical ancestors) came from elsewhere. Naturally. This also raises another idea: if a culture can create monsters or noble creatures, then doesn't this mean that if you have a really Nasty culture with several boogeymen, then they could create some very Nasty things by proxy. The New England puritans fear of Witches, for instance, could have spawned witches or given nasty powers to people who were witches. Though this notion may depend on the size - some little community in the Shadow Marches isn't going to spawn a form of undead that sweeps Khorvaire just because of their local folklore and customs. Were this true though, it would also give an excuse to either 1) wipe out a culture to prevent it from creating more nasty creatures by proxy, or 2) invade them and turn their ideas into something less negative. Heck, you might say this is one of the reasons the Soverign Host came in and said 'hey, you guys are worshipping Our guys', so they could blunt certain practices that were having negative effects. And it also might relate to why the Quori are wanting people to think and act a certain way. Not only will it slow down the Turning of the Wheel, but certain ideas would help the Quori's notions. Conformity, for instance, encourages people to act the same, and the more they think the same, and think of certain ideas that assist the qouri, the more True that idea is. You get enough people thinking and believing in a specific Idea, and you draw power on it. But I'm just milking this notion for all it's worth, to see if something fruitfull comes out. :)
ArcTan 06-21-07, 02:14 AM	Thank you Hellcow. But that then immediately makes me wonder: what's the ratio of Good to Evil strains? And, we're differentiating G v E strains - are there strains that specify Law versus Chaos? It's all ready been said that evil werewolves love wanton slaughter, but that, to me, is a CE sort of thing (as WW in the MM are CE (Holy acronyms, batman!)). How would LE change the behavior? Would they take on a Child of Winter attitude - only culling the weak - or would it be more structured? Same question for NE, really. FWIW, the default Lycanthropy strains given in the Monster Manual define a strain of Lawful Good Werebears, True Neutral Wereboars, Lawful Evil Wererats, True Neutral Weretigers and Chaotic Evil Werewolves. Obviously, in Eberron, the alignment traits mix-and-match in different ways with different beast forms, and they may be culturally based. I have to throw in my two cents and say that I disagree with Keith that True Neutral strains of lycanthropy shouldn't exist, but that's because I think alignment is a weak and incomplete way of describing a character, and lycanthropy should affect a lot more than just your pure alignment desc. (I.e. an LG character bitten by an LG Werebear still changes dramatically if she succumbs to her curse.) Animals are TN but TN in the "default" sense, whereas sentient beings can be TN in all kinds of different ways as part of different philosophies. No lycanthrope is a just plain ordinary live-and-let-live type, true, but that doesn't mean you can't be TN, by D&D's definitions. I imagine the stereotypical Wereboar having a personality trait of "hunger, pleasure, the joy of eating and being full, the joy of running around a patch of land I've declared as mine and only mine, don't stand between me and what I consider to be mine unless you want to be challenged". This isn't a particularly Good or particularly Evil alignment, nor particularly Lawful or Chaotic, but it *is* a very specific behavior pattern that would be a very noticeable way of detecting Wereboars (or at least Wereboars of this particular stereotypical strain). Weretigers might be TN but far more arrogant, detached and reserved than a Wereboar, all about dignity and grace contained within the self and less about consumption and brash declarations of ownership (I'm going by what folkloric depictions of the two animals I'm aware of). Just like an ordinary LG person bitten by the stereotypical LG Werebear suddenly becomes the "stoic defender of the innocent who withdraws from all contact with others to keep his silent vigil" type, whatever kind of person he was before. And a cowardly, nasty CE thief-type becomes a brutal vicious killer upon contracting stereotypical CE Werewolf lycanthropy. It's about more than the alignment.
ArcTan 06-21-07, 02:15 AM	By the way, this idea that lycanthropy pops up naturally as a result of the human "beast within" and being given shape by humans' cultural expectations seems to add credence to the shifter theory that lycanthropes are some kind of human imitation of shifters, rather than shifters being some kind of crossbreed between humans and lycanthropes -- after all, now we see lycanthropes popping up at various points in history while shifters, as far as we know, have always been around as a true-breeding race.
AkumaDaimyo 06-21-07, 02:42 AM	So then strains of LG or good alinged werewolves could come from places or cultures where Wolves are not seen as evil? I can't think of any like that in Eberron but I belive in the real world that Native Americans or at least specific tribes don't see wolves as necessarily evil.
Rechan 06-21-07, 03:28 AM	Excellent thoughts, ArcTan. :) I can't help but agree. So then strains of LG or good alinged werewolves could come from places or cultures where Wolves are not seen as evil? I can't think of any like that in Eberron but I belive in the real world that Native Americans or at least specific tribes don't see wolves as necessarily evil. I suggested above that the Dhakanni may have considered wolves as respectable. Why? The Dhakanni were structured. They had a strong military sense. That requires hierarchy and discipline. They respect prowess and tactics. Wolf packs: Structure and Hierarchy - The strongest is the Alpha, who asserts his dominance over the beta wolves, and you have the "whipping boy" omega who is the comedian. Also, wolves have been observed to kill coyote simply because the coyote is in their territory - they are asserting full on dominance over a "Lesser" speciies (coyote are known to do the same to foxes, so it suggests a species pecking order). Discipline - Beta obey the alpha, or the alpha pins them down until they submit, as he is the strongest. The beta do not eat until the alpha allows them to. The beta also do not breed - only the alpha male and female are allowed to breed. The rest of the pack helps raise the pups. Tactics - Wolves hunt and take down prey as packs; they flank. One will attack the back side of the animal, the animal turns to address this attack, and the ones on the other side now attack. The animal turns in circles until it dies. Prowess - A wolf pack can bring down an animal much larger and powerful prey than itself, like elk or moose. Generally, the reason that Europe saw wolves as evil is because the wolves would 1) eat their sheep and 2) were freaking CREEPY. They howled at night, and their eyes glow in the darkness, and they move really quiet, and can tear prey apart. Wolves were wild and in Europe, there wern't really that many big predators, compared to the US's bears and cougars. To the Europeans, wolves were the biggest, baddest thing out there. But as there's no documented evidence of a healthy wolf attacking a human (but sick or a wolf/dog hybrid could have), there's not much of a serious cause of seeing the wolf as evil beyond fear, superstition and survival. In a place like Khorvaire, there are much, much scarier things in the world than some big dogs. Aberrations, naturally accuring undead, fey bewitching or stealing your children, and demons to name a few, some wild animals are the least of your worries. However, the Evil werewolf strain popped up was Aundair, which is a lot of countryside that looks perfect for herding sheep, and aside from other monsters that might eat your sheep, hearing the wolves howl when you lay in bed would likely feel like they're taunting you. They are an every day concern.
Bentley Mirrorshade 06-21-07, 10:05 AM	Structure and Hierarchy - The strongest is the Alpha, who asserts his dominance over the beta wolves, and you have the "whipping boy" omega who is the comedian. Also, wolves have been observed to kill coyote simply because the coyote is in their territory - they are asserting full on dominance over a "Lesser" speciies (coyote are known to do the same to foxes, so it suggests a species pecking order). Excellent thread, choke full of great ideas! But, maybe a wee nitpick is in order. I don't see Dhakaani asserting full on dominance on lesser species, although they certainly are very structured and hierarchical - I think they are rather protective of their little goblins. It is not survival of the fittest, it's the strong (hobgoblins, bugbears), looking after the weak (goblins), but the physically weak certainly do fill their niche in society and are contributing. But then, I'm no Dhakaani scholar, and seeing as one of the Dhakaani clans has the word "wolf" in it's name (I think), It seems reasonable to say that they admire wolves. I simply wouldn't stretch the analogy too far. Otherwise, kudos.
Hellcow 06-21-07, 11:01 AM	I have to throw in my two cents and say that I disagree with Keith... lycanthropy should affect a lot more than just your pure alignment desc. (I.e. an LG character bitten by an LG Werebear still changes dramatically if she succumbs to her curse.) Umm.... in what way is this disagreeing with me, ArcTan? Those afflicted by the disease suffer a dramatic change in personality, regardless of the alignment of the victim before and after the curse. As a result, lycanthropes of all types have always been feared. Under the best circumstances, the bite of a lycanthrope means a loss of identity; in the worst, it can make a good person into a vicious killer. If you read the Forge of War thread, I've said that's WHY good lycanthropes don't spread the affliction and why no one wants them to. It doesn't create good people - it creates a good-aligned lycanthrope, which is a radically different thing. The Silver Flame wants to inspire virtuous behavior; if turning everyone into LG werewolves would do this, you might think they'd be for it. But an LG lycanthrope ISN'T the same as an LG paladin (well, for that matter, two LG paladins aren't the same, but that's another thing). Lycanthropic behavior is driven by magic and more extreme than typical alignment behavior but also guided down a specific path. Evil lycanthropes aren't just "evil" - which in Eberron can be the greedy innkeeper who pads your bill; they are murderous predators who delight in killing intelligent beings. I had thought wereboars were chaotic neutral. My bad. Personally, for the reasons I described above, i still don't like true neutral 'thropes. In my opinion, Lycanthropy is in some way affected by cultural perception - fear or admiration. If you have a creature where no one really has a strong opinion, then I'd say you wouldn't get lycanthropes of that creature in the first place. Unless, of course, it HAS a strong cultural role that is based around its neutrality, in which case, fine. Like I said, I thought of wereboars as chaotic because of their ferocity. And a cowardly, nasty CE thief-type becomes a brutal vicious killer upon contracting stereotypical CE Werewolf lycanthropy. Certainly. How are we disagreeing on this point? This is what I've always said.
Hellcow 06-21-07, 11:05 AM	I think (th eDhakaani) are rather protective of their little goblins. It is not survival of the fittest, it's the strong (hobgoblins, bugbears), looking after the weak (goblins), but the physically weak certainly do fill their niche in society and are contributing. That's exactly correct. The defining factor of the Dhakaani civilization that differentiates it from many less civilized goblinoid cultures is that each type was respected for the role it played. The goblins were the worker cast, but it was acknowledged that the civilization needed this. So the hobgoblins ruled and fought, because that was their rightful role. Actually, key point there is that the bugbears ARE physically stronger that the hobgoblins, but the hobgoblins were still the rulers. It's each species filling its best role, not the strong ruling over the weak.
Hellcow 06-21-07, 12:27 PM	I'll also note that I don't necessarily expect all lycanthropes of a specific alignment to behave in a given manner; I feel that this, again, is influenced by animal form (or more accurately, cultural perception of animal form). The broad behavior is universal, as defined by the MM. Evil lycanthropes are inherently murderous predators. Good lycanthropes will seek to avoid killing innocents, and in general to avoid civilization and other creatures. But the form this takes can certainly be colored by the animal form. The LG werebear may retreat into the woods and live a solitary life. But rats are actually at home in the city, and who would expect a wererat to go off and live alone in the woods? So I don't expect the LG wererat to leave the CITY. But I'd expect him to be drawn towards the shadows and the sewers, to be uncomfortable in the company of humans - though actually DRAWN to seek out the company of his own kind, as opposed to the werebear who is content to live a solitary existence. Wererats like being with other wererats, and they like their warrens. In Sharn, I could easily see a wererat community coming together in Fallen or Khyber's Gate... but they'd prefer either of these two locations to the upper towers, and would rather be with other wererats than with nobles. This comes back to that change of personality. The LG wererat may not be a killer. But he still doesn't feel at home with normal humans. He has a natural affinity for rats and wererats, and he is drawn to them. He may not KILL his family, but he's going to find that he just doesn't feel the same way about them that he once did; he'd never hurt his wonderful wife, but honestly? She just doesn't smell right any more. Her body language bothers him. He feels a void, a longing to be around others that understand him and feel as he does. So all evil 'thropes may be predators, but the evil wolf, tiger, and rat will use very different methods, even if they are the same alignment. (An obvious question is if you can have, say, an evil werecow - something which clearly isn't a predatory creature. I think the issue is if you can come up with an explanation for why the creature would be feared, even if it's not a predator in the wild. For example, if you had a bullfighting culture in which the bulls DID win a fair number of the conflicts, the werebull might reflect that fear - the vengeance of the angry bull.)
wizardguy2003 06-21-07, 12:36 PM	Would this behavioral aspect concern just afflicted lycans, or true as well? If this is the case than how could one really rationalize the presence of a lycan PC. Would they always need some sort of grand reason to be around those who are not their kind? And also would the player constantly have to RP a sense of discomfort in that situation?
Hellcow 06-21-07, 12:56 PM	Would this behavioral aspect concern just afflicted lycans, or true as well? If this is the case than how could one really rationalize the presence of a lycan PC. Would they always need some sort of grand reason to be around those who are not their kind? And also would the player constantly have to RP a sense of discomfort in that situation? If you read the Purge dragonshard, it affects all lycanthropes; the reason natual lycanthropes can't be cured is BECAUSE it is such an integral part of their nature. However, a natural lycanthrope can learn to overcome these instincts. It is a constant struggle, and yes, if I was playing a wererat PC I WOULD play up the fact that he'd rather be in the shadows, that he feels lonely, and so on. The werebear will be uncomfortable in cities, and yes, I would want him to have a good reason driving him to be an adventurer as opposed to living in the woods - something that is driving him to go against his instincts and walk among men. With that said, PCs going against type is hardly unique. The barbarian from the Demon Wastes is going to have to restrain his violent impulses. The Eldeen druid will be uncomfortable in Sharn; an Ashbound druid is going to have to struggle to work along side arcane characters, balancing his innate hatred of such works with the possibility that the sorcerer is using his powers wisely. So yes, natural lycanthropes are driven by these urges. That's why you don't see many lycanthropes in the cities of Khorvaire (well, that and the Silver Flame). PCs or remarkable NPCs CAN overcome these instincts, but that's what makes them remarkable.
Rechan 06-21-07, 01:14 PM	That's exactly correct. The defining factor of the Dhakaani civilization that differentiates it from many less civilized goblinoid cultures is that each type was respected for the role it played. The goblins were the worker cast, but it was acknowledged that the civilization needed this. So the hobgoblins ruled and fought, because that was their rightful role. Actually, key point there is that the bugbears ARE physically stronger that the hobgoblins, but the hobgoblins were still the rulers. It's each species filling its best role, not the strong ruling over the weak. Doesn't that suggest more of a Caste system, then? Unlike the Hindu caste system that's based on religion, we have more of an insect-like structure (like ants or termites) based on race? "If you're a goblin, this is your roles in Dhakanni; if you're a Bugbear, this is your roles".
Hellcow 06-21-07, 01:22 PM	Doesn't that suggest more of a Caste system, then? "If you're a goblin, this is your roles in Dhakanni; if you're a Bugbear, this is your roles". Yup, that's what it is. There are notable exceptions, like the Shaarat'Khesh. But expectations are that you will follow the role dictated by your race and that this what makes the most sense for you and the empire. With that said, they are broad categories and there's undoubtedly specialized subroles. For example, the goblins are the primary laborers and crafters. However, bugbears are much stronger than goblins. Bugbears are best known as the shock troops of the armies. However, I would suspect that there is a nonmilitant path of bugbear laborers specifically putting their great strength to use. So, as a child, they'd determine if you had a knack for warfare; if you didn't, you'd be routed to the support role.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 12:24 AM	Certainly. How are we disagreeing on this point? This is what I've always said. I disagree mainly with the idea that you can't have TN Lycanthropes because TN is the "meh" alignment. TN may be the "meh" alignment for creatures who are TN because they aren't sentient, but I think you can have sentient TN creatures whose TN nature is very much part of a particular personality or philosophy.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 12:27 AM	(An obvious question is if you can have, say, an evil werecow - something which clearly isn't a predatory creature. I think the issue is if you can come up with an explanation for why the creature would be feared, even if it's not a predator in the wild. For example, if you had a bullfighting culture in which the bulls DID win a fair number of the conflicts, the werebull might reflect that fear - the vengeance of the angry bull.) By the rules in the MM, the only animals that can serve as bases for a Lycanthrope template are "predators, omnivores or scavengers" -- i.e. creatures that eat meat. This is partly because all Lycanthropes are supposed to be scary creatures who bite people, since the curse is specifically transmitted by biting. But you can also come up with flavor for this -- that the power of Lycanthropy can only be realized in beings who draw sustenance from the blood of other animals, or whatever. The main thing is that since bulls don't do a lot of biting of their enemies when they fight them, a Werebull in the game makes transmitting the curse a non-concern (by RAW), and so you'd have to do some editing. (I've noticed that most bull-human hybrids, including the D&D Minotaur and the WoW Tauren, follow their human rather than bovine halves in that they do eat meat.)
Hellcow 06-22-07, 12:44 PM	I disagree mainly with the idea that you can't have TN Lycanthropes because TN is the "meh" alignment. TN may be the "meh" alignment for creatures who are TN because they aren't sentient, but I think you can have sentient TN creatures whose TN nature is very much part of a particular personality or philosophy. Oh, certainly. I'm not saying that TN is always equated to ambivalence. My point is still that lycanthropic alignment relates to cultural beliefs - the perception of a creature as being a certain way. If that belief isn't especially strong, then you don't end up with lycanthropes of that creature. In my opinion, people are more likely to have strong opinions around good, evil, chaos, or law - the clever trickster, the fearsome predator, the symbol of nobility - than to separate a creature from all of these things. I'm not talking about humans, and I'm not talking about animals; I see lycanthropes as being driving by higher and in some ways more abstract principles. When you say "hunger, pleasure, the joy of eating and being full, the joy of running around a patch of land I've declared as mine and only mine, don't stand between me and what I consider to be mine unless you want to be challenged" I actually DO think chaotic neutral; I think that the key here is that the creature is FREE, reveling in joy and pleasure, challenging those who get in its way. So I see the alignments being generated by the folowing reactions: Evil. To me, this is about fear. This is generated when the culture perceives the creature to be a predator or a bringer of death (for example, rats spreading plague). And not just a predator, but a predator who endangers the species producing the lycanthrope (though this may be by preying on their livestock). This is why the evil lycanthrope is specifically called out as enjoying killing members of his own race - because the drive of the curse is to embody that fear. Good. This comes from the perception of nobility - a symbol of courage or strength. Again, this may have NOTHING to do with the actual behavior of the creature in the wild. But the people THINK of it as a heroic creature. They don't believe that it is a threat to them. And as a result, it's not a threat to them. This doesn't mean it will HELP them. In the case of evil, people specifically fear that the creature will harm them. On the other hand, the eagle may be a symbol of the US, but I doubt anyone expects an eagle to swoop in and savethem - they simple don't fear it, and aren't worried about it attacking them. Thus, the good lycanthrope seeks to avoid harming innocents, but it's not inherently a champion against the forces of darkness. Chaos. There's a number of different things I'd see as generating a chaotic alignment. One is freedom - the creature that simply revels in life, taking pure joy in living. Another is cunning - Brer Rabbit, Coyote, and the like. The creature is wily and unpredictable. And the third is savage - a trait giving to those creatures that generate the most raw, unreasoning fear. Looking to the traditional werewolf, this is where I see CE. The wolf is a social creature with a pack - but the werewolf isn't so much a reflection of the actual behavior of the wolf, but the unreasoning fear of the farmer who lives in nightly dread of wolves striking his flock. It's the Big Bad Wolf of fairy tales (setting aside Fables, of course). Law. This is another one that's difficult to pin down. I see the lawful aspect of a traditional wererat as having a very different source than the same aspect for the werebear. One clear source is population and organization. When I think of rats, I don't think of ONE rat - I think that where there's one, there's many. Here's where you could easily make a case for a lawful werewolf; the question is whether the culture in question focuses on the bond between the pack (which would push for law) or on the sheer fear generated by the individual wolf (going for chaos). Again, it's the Big Bad Wolf, not the Big Bad Wolfpack. So the Little Red Riding hood archetype will generate a CE werewolf, while, say, The Jungle Book would push towards LN or even LG werewolves, with that same strong draw to others of their kind I suggested for werewolves. A second source for law would be honor. Rarely seen in the wild, this would have to be tied to mythic perception - the King of the Jungle would never break his word! A variation of this is stability or reliability - the bear who never lets down a friend. Obviously, this is more nebulous than good or evil. For some it is a symbol of a strong social bond, while for others it can be the strong silent loner. But both of those are clear archetypes. So again, it's not that True Neutral can't represent a strong philosophical viewpoint. It's not that it's the meaningless "Meh" alignment. It's that I see it as being rarely generated in the mythic viewpoint; one thought that came to me was the wise old owl, but then I think I'd go LN for the "stability" factor, or possibly even LG because it's seen as a creature that isn't going to pose a threat (as opposed to evil always posing a threat and neutral on the good-evil axis being "won't come after you, but don't push it."). I certainly understand neutrality in nature and among humans. I can see a natural lycanthrope who BECOMES true neutral. I'm just saying that I see it as being a very odd alignment for the base alignment of the strain - because in my opinion (and unlike the business of alignment being attached to strain, this isn't official) few cultures have strong mythic beliefs abotu creatures that are separated from all of those factors. Again, I'd see that perception of the wereboar - wild and free, reveling in the pleasure of the moment, not posing a threat to those who stay off his territory but fighting anyone who challenges him - as chaotic neutral. Neutral because it's not noble and safe, but neither a feared hunter; chaotic because of that wild freedom. But yes, I do like that as an explanation for the diverse range of lycanthropic alignments; the LG werewolf strain was first spawned by a culture that respected the wolf for the bond between the pack or its group tactics, but which had no fear of the wolf. The CE werewolf is the product of the frightened farmer who lives in fear of the creature, who doesn't know or care about its actual behavior but simple knows it as the beast that comes in the darkness and slaughters his baby tribex. With all that said, I'm not arguing with you about the point, ArcTan; I've just clarifying my position. I'm more than happy to agree to disagree on neutrality; I see where you're coming from, I'd just take a different path in my game. But I've certainly always said that lycanthropic alignment is completely different from human alignment, and that the LG cleric who because an LG werebear isn't just the same guy with new powers. Lycanthropic alignment is a powerful thing, influenced by mystic forces. As an evil lycanthrope, you may reflect aspects of the actual creature, but even more you're becoming what people FEAR about the creature. Actual wolves rarely attack humans - but the peasants believe that they will, and the werewolf embodies that fear. By the rules in the MM, the only animals that can serve as bases for a Lycanthrope template are "predators, omnivores or scavengers" -- i.e. creatures that eat meat. Of course! Slipped my mind.
Bentley Mirrorshade 06-22-07, 07:03 PM	Oh my mind is filling with lycanthropy goodness! :D This is a question I've been pondering on another thread, but being slightly off-topic (it's a werewolf PrC thread), let me humbly reiterate it... (seeing that Mr.Baker maintains presence here): How often does a lycanthrope break free of it's strain's alignment? Almost never, like a devil turning good? Or seldom, like a vampire realizing it's humanity and striving to be good? Or something in between? Edit> how about this: Devil - Always LE, Aundairian Werewolf (CE strain) - Usually CE, Vampire - Often CE, Dragon, Orc - No alignment restriction or racial bias (possible cultural alignment bias) ?
Neutronium_Dragon 06-22-07, 09:40 PM	True neutral would be a fitting mythic alignment for a creature which is seen as simply being aloof. They're not actually menacing (which would point towards evil), but neither are they noble (which would point towards good). In the Eberron context, they're still regarded as Always whatever, so I don't think that they'd break away from their strain's alignment all that often. If you were operating in the FR it would be different since they are actually downgraded to Often/Usually as well.
Hellcow 06-23-07, 02:34 AM	True neutral would be a fitting mythic alignment for a creature which is seen as simply being aloof. My thing is that I can also see many "aloof" creatures being cast as lawful; that's where I ended up going with the idea of the wise old owl. But sure. Again, *I* don't like it - doesn't mean it's wrong. As for alignment, in my opinion it's somewhere between the angel and the vampire. It's more like the vampire - having your personality shaped by an outside force - than like the quori, who is a literal embodiment of a concept, and who, if its alignment shifts, may actually physically transform into an entirely different creature. I consider the lycanthropic pull to be stronger than that of the vampire, but it's similar; you're pushing against instincts and magical influences that you can never fully shut off.
Bentley Mirrorshade 06-23-07, 01:51 PM	*response* Thank you, sir, your thoughts are very appreciated. Rest easily, for in my eyes, the time you've dedicated to this thread has not been in vain.
ZappoHisbane 06-23-07, 10:29 PM	I've got nothing of substance to add to the discussion, I just wanted to say great job by everyone. A most excellent thread.
Dirth 06-29-07, 02:32 PM	just out of curriosoty does any one know how long a true lycan can stay in hybred form?
Neutronium_Dragon 06-30-07, 05:53 AM	A natural lycanthrope can stay in any of their forms for as long as they want to. An afflicted one may be able to as well, if they're aware of their condition and pass any Control Shape checks which come up along the way.
Werebat 07-03-07, 01:13 AM	First paragraph of the Lycanthropy and the Purge dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a): Also, Keith talks at length about good werewolves and the like in the thread: "Forge of War: The More things Change", as the Purge came up for about three pages in it. Ahh, sweet... - Ron ^*^