Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DMDaddy 11-03-07, 07:16 AM	Warforge--Fighter7/Artificer1/Wizard1/Juggernaut5 This character seems too powerful for the other player characters. Teifling--Rogue4/Sorc8/Master of the Unseen Hand1 Human--Pal13 Pixie--Druid5/Rogue6 Challenging the Warforge without overpowering the other characters is difficult. Any suggestions??? It almost seems that the Warforge race needs an LA +1 or +2. Way too many immunities.
Need_A_Life 11-03-07, 10:04 AM	Well... I'm stumped... The party seems... oddly built; no wonder challenge ratings are going out of wack. Warforged have a great deal of immunities, yes. But they also have weaknesses en mass. Falling into a pit half-filled with water? First a swim check (remember armor penalty) then a climb check (again, armor penalty) and since no self-respecting warforged has a good dexterity score he's likely to fail the reflex save every time.
Alex_ 11-03-07, 10:46 AM	Warforge--Fighter7/Artificer1/Wizard1/Juggernaut5 This character seems too powerful for the other player characters. Teifling--Rogue4/Sorc8/Master of the Unseen Hand1 Human--Pal13 Pixie--Druid5/Rogue6 Challenging the Warforge without overpowering the other characters is difficult. Any suggestions??? It almost seems that the Warforge race needs an LA +1 or +2. Way too many immunities. I can see how the Warforged character would be overly powerful in this situation. Your Tiefling and Pixie both have LA, but tried to go as primary spellcasters. Paladins can also be hamstrung depending on the specifics of the campaign (alignment, no place for mount, MAD due to point buy character building, etc). One character (the Warforged) is simply better optimized than the others. It's the Warforged Juggernaut prestige class that's powerful... in a different way. You have, what is essentially a full construct in a party full of living creatures. Encounters centered around fending off living things are not going to work as effectively. So start giving NPCs options for dealing with both, or more anti-construct tools. Touch attacks, energy damage, splash weapons, weapons that overcome DR, or dangers that require reflex saves. Create encounters as if you have a party of three, and one of your PCs has a very smart Golem/Shield Gaurdian/etc.
Edymnion 11-03-07, 11:34 AM	Warforge--Fighter7/Artificer1/Wizard1/Juggernaut5 This character seems too powerful for the other player characters. Teifling--Rogue4/Sorc8/Master of the Unseen Hand1 Human--Pal13 Pixie--Druid5/Rogue6 Challenging the Warforge without overpowering the other characters is difficult. Any suggestions??? It almost seems that the Warforge race needs an LA +1 or +2. Way too many immunities.Lets see, if anything, the Warforged is weaker than he should be. He gets nothing useful out of his one level of Artificer, and seeing as how Adamantine Body is a prereq for Juggernaut, his Arcane Spell Failure is so high he will NEVER cast a spell reliably (and he still has to worry about ASF when replicating arcane spells as an artificer). So basically, he's got two levels that are pretty much worthless, IMO. And yeah, the other characters are even worse off trying to mix spellcasting and non-spellcasting classes. The WF only wasted 2 levels, these guys are wasting 4-6 levels. So no, honestly, its not that the Warforged is too powerful, its that the rest of the party is too weak.
Alex_ 11-03-07, 02:26 PM	Lets see, if anything, the Warforged is weaker than he should be. He gets nothing useful out of his one level of Artificer, and seeing as how Adamantine Body is a prereq for Juggernaut, his Arcane Spell Failure is so high he will NEVER cast a spell reliably (and he still has to worry about ASF when replicating arcane spells as an artificer). I think he uses the levels in Wizard so that he can use arcane scrolls and wands. His Use Magic Device ranks and Charisma modifier are probably pretty poor. Artificer is for the utility and self buffs (just nice to have), as well as the fact that with a Paladin and cross class Pixie (with LA+4)-neverminding the Juggernaut's immunity to healing spells- and a Sorcerer with limited spell options, the Warforged using Scrolls and Wands of Repair X Damage is his own best (possibly only) source of healing. After a fight, the Paladin uses up Lay on Hands and whatever spells he has on himself, plus 2 party members, stretching healing resources thin, while the Warforged goes off and uses up all his magic items on himself. Then at night, he repairs himself for additional HP.
Edymnion 11-03-07, 03:50 PM	I think he uses the levels in Wizard so that he can use arcane scrolls and wands. His Use Magic Device ranks and Charisma modifier are probably pretty poor. Artificer is for the utility and self buffs (just nice to have), as well as the fact that with a Paladin and cross class Pixie (with LA+4)-neverminding the Juggernaut's immunity to healing spells- and a Sorcerer with limited spell options, the Warforged using Scrolls and Wands of Repair X Damage is his own best (possibly only) source of healing.Yeah, but the catch there is that, unless they're scrolls he made, he still suffers ASF when casting them. The way the Artificer gets around that is the fact that his scrolls aren't considered to be Arcane. About the only thing he'd really get out of those two levels is Personal Weapon Augmentation, which he could have gotten more easily with just Artificer. For that matter, he would have been better off going Artificer for both of those levels.
DMDaddy 11-03-07, 04:40 PM	He uses the Artificer for weapon augmentation; The wizard for spell list to use magic items. I didn't know that his adamantine armor required a Spell Failure check. I trusted him when he said 'it doesn't'. (no more trusting him). I've thought about creating custom encounters that aim at his weaknesses, but, he's pretty smart and would be on to me after a few encounters. Since the party is an average EL of 14, I could tailor re-occuring villians who know them because of their popularity and specifically target the warforges weaknesses. This villian could hire specific groups to attack his weaknesses. I could make it to were his life is always on the line and the other players will have to keep him alive. I know a few fire giants can pound him down pretty good as well as other giants (high BAB and damage). Maybe I could have the giants focus all their efforts at him and ignore the rest of the party.
Edymnion 11-03-07, 05:34 PM	He uses the Artificer for weapon augmentation; The wizard for spell list to use magic items. I didn't know that his adamantine armor required a Spell Failure check. I trusted him when he said 'it doesn't'. (no more trusting him).Yes, all of the body feats (aside from Unarmored Body) have spell failure. Any spell that requires somantic components will be affected, including those from scrolls. Also, if he uses his Wizard spellcasting ability to provide spells for making scrolls and the like, then he is creating them as a Wizard, not an Artificer, so they are still arcane, and would suffer from ASF. Only way to avoid that is to make them as an Artificer through UMD checks. I've thought about creating custom encounters that aim at his weaknesses, but, he's pretty smart and would be on to me after a few encounters.You don't really have to make custom encounters just for him, just change your tactics a bit. He's going to be freaking easy to hit with a touch attack. Most spells with attack rolls are ranged touch attacks. Things like trips and grapples are touch attacks to start. He's got a good AC, it just means you have to use more encounters that don't target his normal AC. Its not really picking on him, as anyone in-character that has the ability to make touch attacks would realize that they are much more effective in those situations. Area attacks work well as well. I know a few fire giants can pound him down pretty good as well as other giants (high BAB and damage). Maybe I could have the giants focus all their efforts at him and ignore the rest of the party.I don't recommend that. If you are obviously picking on him, he's going to know it. So, don't target him. Just make sure you include more encounters where the other characters have a chance to shine, or encounters he won't be able to handle by himself. He's built (more or less) a melee combat machine. Not all encounters are melee combat. Put in more stealth missions, more spellcasting, and more diplomacy. Basically, every character deserves time in the limelight, which means every character has a time they have to stand back and let somebody else be the center of attention. If the WF is dominating your game, its probably because you keep putting him in the spotlight with encounters that he's good at. Something as simple as putting in more ranged combat instead of melee could be enough to turn the tide.
Belabras 11-03-07, 06:52 PM	I know the pixie and tiefling have LA, but why is the human a level behind the warforged?
DMDaddy 11-03-07, 08:27 PM	just change your tactics a bit. He's going to be freaking easy to hit with a touch attack. Just make sure you include more encounters where the other characters have a chance to shine. If the WF is dominating your game, its probably because you keep putting him in the spotlight with encounters that he's good at. Touch attacks work well. I haven't used as many spell casters against them for fear of TPK. They are not very experienced players when it comes to dealing with a spellcasting opponent. The other characters want combat for their shine spots. Of course this is a problem when they aren't good at melee. I can see that I'm going to have my work cut out for me in order to properly challenge them. This is a start. The Paladin13 didn't play a few sessions and so is lagging behind in levels. The paladin seems to do quite well actually. Power attack, holy smite and greater cleave make a potent combination when facing a group of monsters.
Alex_ 11-04-07, 01:07 AM	Yeah, but the catch there is that, unless they're scrolls he made, he still suffers ASF when casting them. The way the Artificer gets around that is the fact that his scrolls aren't considered to be Arcane. I assumed he'd be using them outside of battle. In that case, he'd have plenty of time to fail checks due to ASF. With the spell failure chance, it'll only hold him back for a couple of rounds or so on average- less than a minute probably. About as long as it takes him to cast some of his infusions (if not shorter).
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-04-07, 03:27 AM	Warforged have a great deal of immunities, yes. But they also have weaknesses en mass. What weaknesses besides an armor check penalty (which isn't specific to warforged)?
Need_A_Life 11-04-07, 08:16 AM	Healing (of lack of the same) is a noteworthy weakness; as are wis and cha penalties. Will saves will suffer (unless he has that weird feat from PHBII that lets you use Con for will saves) and both UMD and Diplomacy suffers from Cha. In social situations he will not only suffer for a bad Cha, but also for his race, which is considered sentient weapons of mass destruction by most people by default. At this level, the Body Feats have also lost their "Oomph," though more things he faces will encounter his immunities (at first level, partial fortification and sleep is about what you'll encounter), especially when he's a Juggernaut. WFJ is made for grappling and bull-rushing IIRC (and some nice bonuses to boot), but WF'd aren't exactly known for their ranged combat skill in my experience. Touch spells, ranged attacks, attacks from kobolds (small size, faster than the WFJ), traps, AoE attacks etc. He's a dead construct walking the moment you give him a decent challenge to overcome. At the moment, it seems you're handing him victory w/o a fight. Though it must be hard to challenge him, seeing as how you have to pull punches not to wipe out the rest of the party :rolleyes:
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-04-07, 08:29 AM	Healing (of lack of the same) is a noteworthy weakness The group setup (only half a druid and a paladin) doesn't seem to include much healing anyway. Will saves will suffer (unless he has that weird feat from PHBII that lets you use Con for will saves) A WFJ is immune to most things requiring a Will save. and both UMD and Diplomacy suffers from Cha. I think me may presume that neither UMD nor Diplomacy are supposed to be this character's strength. ;-) In social situations he will not only suffer for a bad Cha, but also for his race, which is considered sentient weapons of mass destruction by most people by default. In a group containing a tiefling and a pixie, the warforged isn't the most handicapped character in this area I'd say. At this level, the Body Feats have also lost their "Oomph," though more things he faces will encounter his immunities (at first level, partial fortification and sleep is about what you'll encounter), especially when he's a Juggernaut. And this poses a serious problem, especially at mid to high levels. Especially AoE-Save-or-die/be petrified/run a way screaming-Effects are really tough to balance when some PCs are immune, some not. --- I'd go with Edymnion and include more encounters / adventures that don't focus around melee combat (e. g. stealth, social interaction, puzzle solving, investigation). Make the Player taste the blandness of playing the Ultimate Melee Machine.
Alex_ 11-04-07, 04:53 PM	Healing (of lack of the same) is a noteworthy weakness; as are wis and cha penalties. He heals himself. That is, with what damage he does take, being immune to so much stuff, having DR, and the ability to buff himself as an Artificer for additional DR. Will saves will suffer (unless he has that weird feat from PHBII that lets you use Con for will saves) and both UMD and Diplomacy suffers from Cha. That's why he took the level of Wizard and Artificer. He doesn't have to make any UMD checks, because Wizard spells and Artificer Inusions are on his spell list. WFJ is made for grappling and bull-rushing IIRC (and some nice bonuses to boot), but WF'd aren't exactly known for their ranged combat skill in my experience. That'd be the best way to go, although the Paladin is also melee focused, so it'd be hard to make an encounter the Paladin could excel that would hinder the Warforged and vice versa.
Edymnion 11-04-07, 08:29 PM	That's why he took the level of Wizard and Artificer. He doesn't have to make any UMD checks, because Wizard spells and Artificer Inusions are on his spell list. For wands, yeah. Still doesn't help for scrolls. And the infusions can be done in one round with an action point. So yeah, he can get by outside of combat, but aside from the action point fueled weapon augmentations, he gets nothing in combat.
DMDaddy 11-04-07, 11:40 PM	AoE-Save-or-die/be petrified/run a way screaming-Effects are really tough to balance when some PCs are immune, some not.. This states my whole problem quite well. I'd go with Edymnion and include more encounters / adventures that don't focus around melee combat (e. g. stealth, social interaction, puzzle solving, investigation). Make the Player taste the blandness of playing the Ultimate Melee Machine. Edymnion gave some good advice. However, the other players also want to be part of melee, even though they fall dead too easy.
Alex_ 11-05-07, 12:19 AM	For wands, yeah. Still doesn't help for scrolls. No UMD means no chance of mishaps. He may not always pull off the spell when he wants to due to ASF, but unlike someone who tried to use UMD, he also never has to fear failing the check, taking damage, and using up the spell. And the infusions can be done in one round with an action point. So yeah, he can get by outside of combat, but aside from the action point fueled weapon augmentations, he gets nothing in combat. However, nobody else in the game has much in the way of in-combat healing either. He's at no disadvantage compared to the party there. He's durable enough to take and survive more hits anyway. In the long run, when everyone sits down and starts doling out healing spells, he starts to more noticeably pull ahead from the rest of the group.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-05-07, 03:20 AM	Edymnion gave some good advice. However, the other players also want to be part of melee, even though they fall dead too easy. Perhaps something like this: The PCs have to steal some magic Muffin from an ancient giant temple atop a volcano (it's pulp!). When the PCs arrive, they realize that the temple has been deserted centuries ago. They have time to explore the ruins, and find some evidence that the Muffin once sat atop an altar in the central chamber - it's gone now, however. While the PCs are distracted by fighting some raging Earth Elementals (use Earth Gilde to avoid the Warforged's attacks), the sun sets, and the temple begins to change. The ancient building slowly changes back to what it must have looked like a thousand years ago, and shadows (really just shadows, not the monster) of giants and drow begin to wander the halls (it's pulp!). The PCs should leave now - quickly. As the shadow slowly manifest, they also appear to notice the PCs and begin chasing them. Just before they escape the temple, the door guards stop them: two (or more) fire giants (1st level fighters, full plate, shield and warhammer, some AC-boosters). The PCs struggle to get past them, which will probably not be possible for the Paladin and the WFJ without some heavy beating. The guards don't pursue them beyond line of sight of the temple, however. Just before the chase ends, the PCs see who appears to be the head honcho of the giant tribe, an ancient giant clad in adamant armor and throwing flame strikes after them. The PCs will probably send the pixie and perhaps the tiefling back into the temple to scout (or they even stayed there). They have to avoid the overpowering giants, but might have to quietly kill some of their drow slaves to reach the central chamber, where the Muffin was probably stored. As expected, the Muffin came back to present day with the giants, but it is secured with some strange metal device and heavily guarded by the main priest and his minions. After returning to their comrades outside the temple, the PCs might (!) form the following plan: As the priest obviously leaves the central chamber when the temple is attacked (he followed the PCs when they escaped the first time!), he might be distracted by some crazy suicidal attack at the front gate - perfect job for the WFJ and the Paladin. If they are clever, they attack at the break of dawn, so that they only have to survive some rounds. Meanwhile, the Pixie and the Tiefling try to overpower the temple servants (drow or perhaps some kind of interesting monster that they should be able to trick/kill/kite to death) and grab the Magic Muffin. There will be pulpy complications, of course: the metal device requires some tinkering to release the Muffin (=> Disable Device or perhaps UMD) or solving of some kind of puzzle (if the pixie doesn't have DD or UMD). After taking some damage, the guards at the door use Potions of Levitation to ascend to the temples roof and bombard the attacking WFJ/Paladin with red-hot boulders (it's pulp!), which explode into razor sharp, searingly hot shards when hitting the ground (=> after failed attack, Reflex save to avoid splash damage). A cloud blocks the sun just after sunrise, and makes the PCs hearts stop for a terrifying moment - but the giants vanish just the same (or... do they?). As it turns out, the muffin stays in the present, and the PCs have bested the time-shifting temple of fiery death. However, it quickly starts to degrade, as time appears to catch on. Only the mysterious master of psionic time travelling might be able to stop the process, but he lives in an enchanted forest atop a snowy mountain, where... oh... whatever, you get the picture. Something about weird faeries and senile old geezers who need a looot of diplomacy and tests of good faith to help the PCs.
Edymnion 11-05-07, 12:39 PM	No UMD means no chance of mishaps. He may not always pull off the spell when he wants to due to ASF, but unlike someone who tried to use UMD, he also never has to fear failing the check, taking damage, and using up the spell.Oh yes he does. If he's using his spell list to activate the wand, he is no different than any other lvl 1 wizard trying to use a 3rd level spell scroll (or whatever level it is). The only thing that level of wizard will give him is the ability to use wands reliably, and first level scrolls. If he wants more than that, he has to use UMD. So really, there shouldn't be much of a problem here. If he's using arcane scrolls, then he is either limited to first level scrolls reliably, or he has to first make the UMD check to see if he can activate the scroll, then a ASF check to see if he flubs it (and wastes the scroll).
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-05-07, 12:56 PM	Why do you care so much about what good the level of wizard does? He can, as appears to be common ground, use a Wand of Repair Light Damage, and at least 13 of his levels make sense - which can't be said about the pixie or the tiefling. Perhaps he wanted a cuddly familiar, perhaps he can use scrolls without ASF, perhaps he only bought knowledge (arcane) for some reason. From what we know, he's much more powerful than the others, and that's the problem DMDaddy wanted to discuss.
Edymnion 11-05-07, 01:10 PM	Why do you care so much about what good the level of wizard does? He can, as appears to be common ground, use a Wand of Repair Light Damage, and at least 13 of his levels make sense - which can't be said about the pixie or the tiefling. Perhaps he wanted a cuddly familiar, perhaps he can use scrolls without ASF, perhaps he only bought knowledge (arcane) for some reason. From what we know, he's much more powerful than the others, and that's the problem DMDaddy wanted to discuss.The problem is that the WF is being deemed as too powerful. From what I'm seeing, at least part of that problem is that the DM isn't actually using all of the character's limitations correctly. Its also a problem with the Artificer/Wizard combination that other characters would run into, and I think its important to point out the differences for this sort of thing, both for this thread and for others. This WF can use wands, no problem, but he can't use scrolls worth a flip. If the DM isn't actually using the ASF (which he already said he wasn't, because he didn't know it applied), and he's just letting the WF activate any scroll he gets his hands on just because he has 1 level of wizard, of course the character is going to seem overpowered. If thats the case, then learning how the rules actually interact here will both help solve the immediate problem, and give him a better grasp of how the rules work. Two birds with one stone.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-05-07, 01:22 PM	Mhkay, sorry. Thought that was already settled. I have another suggestion for DMDaddy, though: Give your players the opportunity to redesign their characters. Explain to them the problems of multiclassing and LA, if the don't already know them by now. I did this once with my group, and it was received very well. Be sure to guide everyone through the process properly; I must admit I "allowed" one player to build some serious multiclassing flaws into his character.
DMDaddy 11-05-07, 02:29 PM	The problem is that the WF is being deemed as too powerful. From what I'm seeing, at least part of that problem is that the DM isn't actually using all of the character's limitations correctly. This WF can use wands, no problem, but he can't use scrolls worth a flip. If the DM isn't actually using the ASF (which he already said he wasn't, because he didn't know it applied), and he's just letting the WF activate any scroll he gets his hands on just because he has 1 level of wizard, of course the character is going to seem overpowered. Two birds with one stone. You've perceived correctly and both of these problems will be stopped. I already knew that if I wanted too, I could kill the WFJ easy with the right encounter. I just hate to do that, I try to create my sessions were I am unbiased by the characters classes (a fair challenge for any combo of characters). Unfortunately, it doesn't work. I can see that I need to custom tailor. Perhaps something like this: The PCs have to steal some magic Muffin Very pulp, but good. Yes, I need to get back to Eberron style dungeons. I just got rid of a problem player who didn't like eberron. He made too many problems. So, I might use your idea in the next few sessions. When we started Eberron in Sharn (SCoT), the players loved it and loved dealing with Cavalah of the Daask gang. I'm going back to that. Give your players the opportunity to redesign their characters. Explain to them the problems of multiclassing and LA, if the don't already know them by now. I did this once with my group, and it was received very well. Be sure to guide everyone through the process properly; I must admit I "allowed" one player to build some serious multiclassing flaws into his character. I knew when they did these characters that there'd be problems with balancing. I've already talked to them about redesigns, they want to reach 20th level first, then start over with new characters.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-05-07, 04:42 PM	Quite a prospect - I wish them good luck on their way to the magic 20. They'll need it, it seems. ;-)
DMDaddy 11-05-07, 11:14 PM	Quite a prospect - I wish them good luck on their way to the magic 20. They'll need it, it seems. ;-) Yeah. Soon, before Friday, I'll take a look at the books and see how I can revamp the campaign to challenge them all. I'm thinking of haveing devils/demons and many foes from Droam (giants from the older civilizations who have survived through the 1000s of years underground). Now they emerge with great magical abilities and classes. I also think they are going to have to learn to deal with medussas with levels in classes also. At least until they learn how to effectively fight them without getting turned to stone. Of course all these great encounters will be in between the stealth missions for the pixie and tiefling and some political roleplay for the Paladin who will have to deal with the Sharn authorities. Cavalah has already black mailed the Paladin. Cavalah has a force of Harpy Archers and Medussas on her side. Mawa! Mawa! Mawa! (evil laughter):D
Alex_ 11-06-07, 01:48 AM	Oh yes he does. If he's using his spell list to activate the wand, he is no different than any other lvl 1 wizard trying to use a 3rd level spell scroll (or whatever level it is). The only thing that level of wizard will give him is the ability to use wands reliably, and first level scrolls. If he wants more than that, he has to use UMD. There's no UMD check for activating a scroll with a spell higher than your caster level. If he wants to activate a scroll higher than 1st level, he needs to succeed on a Spellcraft check (as opposed to a UMD check), and if that fails, then a DC5 Will save to avoid a mishap. His Intelligence score is probably decent, since he needs it to cast Infusions/Spells, and he suffers no racial or class penalties to it. He might even have maxed out his Spellcraft skill as much as possible, since he probably doesn't do much else with those points. A DC5 Will save is pretty much a given at 14th level and 2 levels of spellcasting classes. Arcane spell failure's more of a hindrance to him than a mishap.
DMDaddy 11-06-07, 01:30 PM	This player has duped me as some of you have pointed out. I've got the books cracked open now. Up to this point, I let the players keep track of spell casting rules. Not no more. Here's the WFJs stats and some skills: Str20;Dex16;Con16;Int12;Wis8;Cha8 Spellcraft 1; UMD2 Scrolls: must be Deciphered first with Read magic or Spellcraft DC 20+spell level. Caster must have requisite ability high enough to cast such scroll. If the caster has a lower CL, then a Caster Level Check must be made DC=Scroll's CL+1. Failure of this check requires a mishap check of DC 5 Wisdom check. Under the Artificer rules: Cannot automatically use a spell trigger or spell completion item if the equivalent spell appears on his infusion list., and must use UMD. Learning an infusion requires a spellcraft check DC20+spell level. 35% ASF for the Adamantine Body This player has been quite lucky up to now. No more. Thanks all. Oh, did I miss anything? Oh yeah, since the player has not allocated his skill points properly because he didn't have a rules need, what do you think if I allow him to take 2 levels of skill points and subtract from other skills to raise up his Spellcraft and UMD? It only seems fair to me.
Alex_ 11-06-07, 01:42 PM	This player has duped me as some of you have pointed out. I've got the books cracked open now. Up to this point, I let the players keep track of spell casting rules. Not no more. Here's the WFJs stats and some skills: Str20;Dex16;Con16;Int12;Wis8;Cha8 Spellcraft 1; UMD2 Scrolls: must be Deciphered first with Read magic or Spellcraft DC 20+spell level. Caster must have requisite ability high enough to cast such scroll. If the caster has a lower CL, then a Caster Level Check must be made DC=Scroll's CL+1. Failure of this check requires a mishap check of DC 5 Wisdom check. Under the Artificer rules: Cannot automatically use a spell trigger or spell completion item if the equivalent spell appears on his infusion list., and must use UMD. Learning an infusion requires a spellcraft check DC20+spell level. 35% ASF for the Adamantine Body This player has been quite lucky up to now. No more. Thanks all. Oh, did I miss anything? Oh yeah, since the player has not allocated his skill points properly because he didn't have a rules need, what do you think if I allow him to take 2 levels of skill points and subtract from other skills to raise up his Spellcraft and UMD? It only seems fair to me. Well he might not have duped you. Afterall, you weren't completely 100% on the rules, and the rest of us have been adding to and clarifying each other throughout this thread too. With thousands of little rules, everyone's bound to miss some. You just try to catch them when you can.
glug 11-06-07, 03:38 PM	I know this is somewhat off-topic to the main problem at hand, but since healing was brought up, I wanted to point out an awesome thread on these forums, which should help your players out with respect to healing each other, especially with LA's and no healing-focused character. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900334 Bear in mind that anything like the Healing Belt should be available as a Belt of Repair, or Thing That Wraps Around Your Midsection Like A Belt But Fits On A Warforged Body of Repair. ;)
DMDaddy 11-06-07, 06:56 PM	Ok, it's time for me to revamp their next session which they are expecting to fight undead. This is a big problem because WFJ is immune to most all the undead spell like attacks. What to do? First, Evolved Death Knights Cleric7(x2) riding Nightmares. Is there a cleric spell under 4th that can effect a WFJ5? Sound Burst won't work, DC14 fortitude is too easy to pass (WFJ has +12 Fort). I could give Divine Power and other buff spells and then have them weilding energy damage weopons (+1 mace of Electricity). Bear's Endurance and Armor buffs. The monsters will have a few rounds to buff while the ghouls and ghasts first attack. Next will be the wraiths, allips, and shadows. They must travel through a long corridor with several open crypts and pull a combination of levers to get through this level. The Undead will continue to appear. After this they will finaly get to the Lich's lair (wizard13). He will summon a bone devil on the onset. He will also be in one of 45 darkness enchanted alcoves all at least 20' off the ground and will use ranged attacks, climbing from one alcove to the next. The Lich will be easier to mold. But the undead and cleric levels are going to be tough to mold. Quick advice from past DMs experiences please on how to use undead against the WFJ?
Kreistor2 11-07-07, 01:35 AM	But the undead and cleric levels are going to be tough to mold. Quick advice from past DMs experiences please on how to use undead against the WFJ? My suggestion: don't worry about it. The Warforged Juggernaut is stil vulnerable to plain old damage. Just hit him. But there are things he is not immune to -- Grapple, Disarm, Sundef, Trip, Bull Rush. Don't get too caught up in the special effects that he sloughs off. Damage is as damage does. And remember: intelligent undead are intelligent. If someone shows themselves to be immune to their attacks, well, ignore the immune guy, since he's a waste of attacks. Target the people that aren't immune. Don't forget that sucking up an AoO can also limit the WJ's attacks. He's slow, at 20', so a 30' mover can soak the AoO, and move to position to attack someone else 30' away and block the Charge attack while doing so. The WJ then only gets that one AoO each round. Anyway, it's better to fight around him than design around him. Seriously, you're causing yourself way too much stress over this. Go with what you would normally throw at the party, and don't get too tied up in specifics of the WJ. Ulcers you don't need.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-07-07, 04:11 AM	Spritiual Weapon, perhaps in Combination with Divine Power, might be something for the Death Knight Clerics. Depends on their chance to hit, however. An item with Deeper Darkness cast on it (long before combat) might disorient the PCs. When hiding inside the walls or the floor, the incorporeal undead are able to sense nearby people. You could have them ready attacks. This will affect the non-warforged PCs much more, as it lets the WFJs Immunity to All Things Undead (TM) shine really, really bright. You could also concentrate on disabling his equipment. Dispel Magic, Sunder. Control Water is a weird spell you could use to severely handicap the PCs, as they suddenly have to fight in oder even underwater, while the incorporeal undead are not hindered at all. Else... can't think of much. Exactly this kind of encounter is where warforged show their strength, I think. A 3-7 incorporeal undead can vanquish a "mortal" fighter in a single round without him having much of a chance. A WFJ however is immune to practically anything undead or clerics can do.
glug 11-07-07, 03:34 PM	If your WFJ is the kind of guy to go charging blinding into everything, do what that other poster suggested and let him land in a water-filled pit trap. That should at least take him out of things for a while.. and you could always send some Living Spell to chase him down into the pit and harass any friends who try to help him climb out.
Edymnion 11-07-07, 07:09 PM	If he's the type to just charge into a group, then use the group intelligently. You can use Aid Other to give someone a bonus to their attack/defense, just like you can to give a bonus to skill checks. Have somebody with a good to hit, and lots of mooks all using Aid Other to boost his attack roll. The high AC of the Jugger won't really matter, since the attacker is going to have a sky high attack bonus. Long as he doesn't have Cleave/Great Cleave, the group will take him down pretty quick that way. If he starts hitting the main guy too much, have half the mooks switch over to aiding his defense. Most people forget that they can do this, since it is so rare that you get into a situation as a player where losing an entire round of attacks for a lousy +2 to somebody else's attack is worth it, but for badguys trying to take down one hard to hit PC? Oh yeah.
larry_the_titan 11-07-07, 07:23 PM	You shouldn't be trying to use a cleric against a Warforged Juggernaut. To many immunities. Send him against a 14 level Gray Elf Artificer with a Iron Golem for Backup. Build the character by the rules and Take the feats Twin Spell and Etch Schema. Have the Elf have a minor schema of 'Disable Construct' CL14 and apply Twin Spell to it with Metamagic Spell Completion(UMD check DC 50). mister WFJ will need to make 2 will saves DC 19 for half damage on both castings or take 280 damage or drops him to 1 at most. Then have the Iron Golem finish him. All of this is with in the rules. If you are wondering how you are going to get pass the WFJ's AC, just use a scroll of Greater Invisible and Disable construct is a Touch spell. So the AC you are having to hit a DC 10 If you are wondering how you have the Iron Golem needing a caster level 16, Artificers can make magic items with caster levels equal to +2 there class level. If you are wondering how to make the DC 50 UMD check to Twin 'Disable Construct' lets go through the list. Cha 18 + 3 from levels + 6 from cloak of Charisma for a total charisma mod of 8. Max Ranks of UMD 17. Then use the Skill Enhancement Infusion for a +9 Circumstance bonus for UMD. Skill Focus (UMD) +3. Then a Circlet of Persuasion for another +3 Competence bonus to Charisma based checks. 8+17+9+3+3=40 base then take 10 do to Skill mastery for 50. You could do it with a scroll but with a schema you could do it everyday. And yes since you are not preparing the spell as a 10 level spell slot it is still legal. If a player won't play by the rules kill him with them.
Edymnion 11-07-07, 07:43 PM	Or you could always put him up against an artificer with Disable Construct and the Construct Lock feat. Hit him with Construct Lock to make him stop, then Disable Construct on him to drop him to what, 1 hp? That'll get his attention.
DMDaddy 11-07-07, 11:59 PM	AWESOMENESS TO THE CORE!!! I had a scroll of greater restoration applied to me to take care of my ulcer, so I should be fine on that. You know, I just discovered another error on my part. I've never really read all that much into Artificer; only what was needed to allow the character to play. I didn't realize the abilities of a higher level Artificer. Nor am I familiar enough with the feats in the ECS. WOW! Well, I didn't tweak my encounters too much, but I will add an artificer as suggested, soon. One Evolved Death Knight will have many buff spells and buff up. The other will cast spiritual hammer a few times and then enter into combat. The pit of water and living spell is a good idea seeing that the WFJ will no doubt charge in without even thinking. His demise has been along time in the waiting. Since the player with the WFJ is my 16 yrold son, he won't mind if I bring his WFJ down a few notches with a few encounters that leave him for dead, if not worse. I think I might have fun this friday seeing I'm going to focus on destroying his WFJ. DMs are truely evil?
Edymnion 11-08-07, 12:37 PM	ou know, I just discovered another error on my part. I've never really read all that much into Artificer; only what was needed to allow the character to play. I didn't realize the abilities of a higher level Artificer.Oh, then here, read this: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=813665
Kreistor2 11-08-07, 03:42 PM	I think I might have fun this friday seeing I'm going to focus on destroying his WFJ. DMs are truely evil? In my experience, going out of your way to target an individual character without a good motivational reason on the part of an NPC never comes to any good. Targetting him with a backstory NPC works, but if it's just some random enemy that has no personal beef with the PC choosing that PC over the others in the party, well, that can wind up with big problems at the table. I recommend you not do this.
Edymnion 11-08-07, 07:09 PM	In my experience, going out of your way to target an individual character without a good motivational reason on the part of an NPC never comes to any good. Targetting him with a backstory NPC works, but if it's just some random enemy that has no personal beef with the PC choosing that PC over the others in the party, well, that can wind up with big problems at the table. I recommend you not do this.So you just give the character a shiny new sword, and then have it's original owner come to take it back. Have a thief of some sort be carrying a magic greatsword or whatever the PC uses around (you catch him right after he stole it and hasn't had time to ditch it yet). Bad temper higher level guy the thief stole it from finds out the PC got it, and comes to reclaim it. Boom, good reason to have someone be after the WF in particular.
larry_the_titan 11-08-07, 07:11 PM	In my experience, going out of your way to target an individual character without a good motivational reason on the part of an NPC never comes to any good. Targetting him with a backstory NPC works, but if it's just some random enemy that has no personal beef with the PC choosing that PC over the others in the party, well, that can wind up with big problems at the table. I recommend you not do this. Here is the thing Kreistor, the Player was breaking the rules be it knowingly or unknowingly. You break rules in D&D and don't tell the DM you will end up dealing with something far worse then the Far Realm. The only reason I posted the Artificer information here was because the player had broke rules. If the player hadn't I would of been on the players side. Way to often I have come to the site when a DM wants to kill a character who has gotten to powerful with in the Rules. This has to be the first time I have seen in a while were a DM needed actual help and wasn't whining because things had gotten out of hand. If a DM really just wanted the character dead he could just say 'The remaining 12 moons fall on your head take 2 billion d6 damage and make a new character.' In short rocks fall and your character dies.
DMDaddy 11-09-07, 01:49 AM	Oh, then here, read this: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=813665 Awesome link. Very helpful. I'm sold on Artificers. The DM tips at the end were very useful. Way to often I have come to the site when a DM wants to kill a character who has gotten to powerful with in the Rules. This has to be the first time I have seen in a while were a DM needed actual help and wasn't whining because things had gotten out of hand. Thanks for being perceptive. His character is pretty powerful by the rules already, not taking into account his abuse/misuse of WFJ rules. He's also been borderline for abusing other rules. I always catch him trying to tweek some rule in every session. This doesn't bother me all that bad, I'm slowly nipping it in the butt by require all rules he quotes to be looked up and read outloud. What really bothers me is that he isn't challenged and is always begging for tougher fights. Intentionally harming his WFJ for a few session ought to be fun for him. Since he's my son, he won't take it personal. He'll probably have a blast when he gets blasted. Of course I will always offer some means for his character to be brought back. Some powerful dragon in human form will most likely come along to restore him for the benefit of the Draconic Prophecy.
Kreistor2 11-09-07, 09:10 AM	Here is the thing Kreistor, the Player was breaking the rules be it knowingly or unknowingly. You break rules in D&D and don't tell the DM you will end up dealing with something far worse then the Far Realm. The only reason I posted the Artificer information here was because the player had broke rules. If the player hadn't I would of been on the players side. It is the DM's responsibility to understand the classes and how they work, since it is his world. Players are not responsible for final rulings. The player in this case is 16 and it seems to me that the DM is his father, so he has about 20 years of experience on the player. I know exactly who to blame for this rules error, and he doesn't attend high school.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-09-07, 09:37 AM	:blink: That's some cool GM you appear to play with... must know everything. Very impressive. On the other hand... Are the players so untrustworthy that he NEEDS to know everything?
DMDaddy 11-09-07, 09:42 AM	It is the DM's responsibility to understand the classes and how they work, since it is his world. Players are not responsible for final rulings. The player in this case is 16 and it seems to me that the DM is his father, so he has about 20 years of experience on the player. I know exactly who to blame for this rules error, and he doesn't attend high school. What does it matter who's to blame in a family game where we all take a part in following the rules? My wife keeps track of treasures found and character wealth by level. My other son (age 17) takes care of all hit points and damage. My mom (who also plays) monitors spells used per day, and charges in magic items. They all must be familiar with their own classes and abilities that come with those classes. Errors in these things are allowed for. But, BUT, if one of them blatantly bends and tweaks the rules, then who's to blame? I'm sorry, as far as I'm concerned this family game is played on the honor system in my house. Cheaters are not cheaters until they are caught redhanded. I guess it must be my fault everytime the pixie forgets to take a +2 on attacks for being invisible? Gee, can I even know all the rules?
Kreistor2 11-09-07, 04:01 PM	JsEW, I'm the DM. I play that way. I check everything. DMD, ultimately, yes, you are. You screwed up, and there's no one else to blame. No one else can be allowed to check your figures. For your son, on the other hand, there is someone else that can check the figures, and he should be. Not because the kid is unreliable, but because kids are not used to interpreting the letter of rules. And face it: WotC doesn't write the easiest rules in the world to interpret. Cripes, my own players range from 20 to 40, and they can't interpret half the rules right. It's not about honour, it's about missing a sentence, or reading one word as another. I'm jsut saying that going straight to punishment without checking how he interpreted the rules this way is putting the cart before the horse. You're jumping to a conclusion with scanty evidence.
DMDaddy 11-09-07, 06:56 PM	JsEW, I'm the DM. I play that way. I check everything. It's great that you check everything. This is your opinion on how to be a DM. If you check everything, then maybe you should read the first few chapters of the DMG to see what it says about making decisions about rules on the fly, or, to speed up play. It says something to the extent, make a ruling and check it after game play. That is what I do for some rules and in some situations. You screwed up, and there's no one else to blame. I don't think I specified who's to blame, although I can attest with assurity that the player does bend and twist the rules. I pick a few rules every session to challenge, just the same I allow every player the option to challenge a few rules every session. Not all rules, because then game speed would be greatly hindered. kids are not used to interpreting the letter of rules. And face it: WotC doesn't write the easiest rules in the world to interpret. Cripes, my own players range from 20 to 40, and they can't interpret half the rules right. It's not about honour, it's about missing a sentence, or reading one word as another. How else is a child going to learn interpretation of rules except through use of such. I give the same responsibility to all players to know their own characters and all the rules involved. I check a few rules every session to make sure every one is on track. I even have character audit sessions where the whole 4 hours is spent on going over every character; skill points, feats, abilities, attack bonuses, etc... What matters most is correcting errors as they are found. You must be error free as a DM, and your sessions must be slow for the sake of rules. Furthermore, you don't rely on the players to help speed up the game by giving them some of the responsibility for rules. I'm jsut saying that going straight to punishment without checking how he interpreted the rules this way is putting the cart before the horse. You're jumping to a conclusion with scanty evidence. No, the cart is not before the horse and I'm not jumping to conclusions. You are making assumptions based on what little I did post concerning the situation. Wouldn't it be better to give me the benefit of the doubt verses blasting me??? Look, I don't intend on picking apart all of your posts, I have better things to do with my time. I have heard what you have to say and I appreciate you input. You've made some good points and have contributed to my better understanding. Let's keep it that way. Don't make me send a pack of Ogre Barbarian10 to feast on your bones.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-10-07, 06:14 AM	JsEW, I'm the DM. I play that way. I check everything. I respect your eagerness. Personally, I prefer to share some of the responsibility and workload with the players. Does this make one of us a bad GM? Don't think so. And neither has reason to accuse others of being bad GMs because of different gaming styles.
Kreistor2 11-10-07, 11:30 AM	How else is a child going to learn interpretation of rules except through use of such. Well, I have to admit, I'm not a father, and I'm not a teacher. But I know what works with my group. Sitting down with them, reading through the rules, and having them explain their interpretation will reveal their actual error, and more often than not, they'll realize their own flawed reasoning and not require any instruction. But if they fail to see the error, I know exactly what they misinterpreted, and can explain exactly what mistake they made. Like, if they made their mistake based on having the wrong definition of a word, well, that just isn't malicious, is it? Who knows where that false definition came from? A friend? A teacher? Incorrect knowledge is not cheating. If I jump right to punishment, well, the player never gets to see what they did wrong, and all they get is "You cheated." They'll never know where the mistake was made and will probably make the same mistake in the next instance of something similar.
DMDaddy 11-10-07, 04:08 PM	Incorrect knowledge is not cheating. If I jump right to punishment, well, the player never gets to see what they did wrong, and all they get is "You cheated." They'll never know where the mistake was made and will probably make the same mistake in the next instance of something similar. Why do you keep assuming that the player just had incorrect knowledge? Can you see into my game room and read the minds of my players? No, you can't and don't know. I'm not going to sit down and spend hours just listening to the players read the rules. Plus I have a BA with a heavy emphasis in HRD (Human Resource Development). Ok, as far as the session went. The two Cleric7/Deathknights(MMII)/Evolved(LM) on Nightmares totaly stomped on my players. The WFJ, blinded by nightmare smoke, and the Tiefling (paralyzed and Coupe De Graced) both died. The Paladin was brought down to 2 hit points and the Pixie didn't know what to do. Luckily a town Rogue they were friends with came along and pulled repair oil out of the WFJs pouch and healed him to turn the tide a little.
Kreistor2 11-11-07, 04:08 AM	Ok, as far as the session went. The two Cleric7/Deathknights(MMII)/Evolved(LM) on Nightmares totaly stomped on my players. The WFJ, blinded by nightmare smoke, and the Tiefling (paralyzed and Coupe De Graced) both died. The Paladin was brought down to 2 hit points and the Pixie didn't know what to do. Luckily a town Rogue they were friends with came along and pulled repair oil out of the WFJs pouch and healed him to turn the tide a little. Okay, got a few questions for you here. If the WFJ died, how did a repair oil bring him back to life? Or did you mean you just took him to inert status (-1 to -9)? I'm just trying to understand if you're liberal on the death rules, allowing some kind of time limit for -10 or below to get the player back from the brink of death by getting HP back to -9, or something else? (I do that by allowing Revivify to work up to 1rnd/caster level after death instead of textbook 1 rnd. No accusations here since I do the same thing in a different way: I'm just wondering what, if any, houserule is in play here.) Why do you keep assuming that the player just had incorrect knowledge? Benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty. If I have to make an assumption, I assume good in the heart of the person who made a mistake. Positive outlook on people in general, until given evidence that an individual is malicious. Can you see into my game room and read the minds of my players? No, you can't and don't know. I don't need to in order to answer a question that you ask, if the response is generally applicable regardless of specifics of the situation. My answer was a method of determining whether the cause of the mistake was malice, innocent error, or some other cause that I may not be aware is possible. Innocent Error does not deserve punishment: it deserves teaching to correct a flawed thought process. Punishing when one should teach does not have positive results, and should be avoided. I'm not going to sit down and spend hours just listening to the players read the rules. Plus I have a BA with a heavy emphasis in HRD (Human Resource Development). Maybe it has something with you asking questions without providing context? Adding relevant context after the fact (or suggesting that there may be relevant context which is really what you've done) which reveals that the question had unwritten context which was vital to the interpretation of what was being asked for only goes to show how poor you are at analyzing a situation from someone else's perspective. If you can't even analyze your own text to realize you asked me a question, and failed to realize that without context it was not automatically rhetorical, thereby allowing me to interpret the question as honestly asked, then that is your mistake in the writing, not mine in the interpretation: faulting me for answering a question that you may have honestly asked is merely self-serving. Questions are asked to be answered, unless you provide the context that demands that it is rhetorical. I have to make some assumption in the end, DMDaddy, one way or the other: rhetorical or not rhetorical in this case. Without you providing the context that says one way or the other eliminating the need for assumption, I only have a 50% chance of getting it right. More on why I chose non-rhetorical in the next paragraph. But your response above is an example of what I suggested that you may have been doing with your son. You are reading a whole lot into my choice to answer your question. To whit, you're jumping to the conclusion that I am assuming your player had incorrect knowledge, when in fact the technique I suggested was one that would determine if it was incorrect knowledge or malice, so there was no such assumption in either direction. Lacking the context around your specific situation (you still haven't clarified that you have gained actual proof of malice on the part of your son, so I still think you're assuming malice and only suggesting that your may have proof for purposes of making an argument), I cannot know that my solution cannot work in your specific situation. Since my solution fits the majority of situations, it might work and it might help you. But primarily, such techniques are useful knowledge for all DM's, especially the young that do not have the social experience to know how to handle such problems in such ways that avoids players stomping out of games. On any forum, I never write anything for the person I'm responding to, DMDaddy, except to maintain the pretense of responding: I'm not writing suggestions just for you specifically, but for every single reader that stumbles on this thread, so that even if my solution doesn't work for your specific case, it may work for any of the lurkers here. Most forums have a 10:1 lurker:poster ratio, so if you're responding, there's probably 20 people reading (10 for each of us). Without context on your situation, with an open question that can have many possible cases, providing a non-context specific solution is entirely reasonable, since I might be helping a third party. That is what guides me to take the "not a rhetorical question" assumption over the "rhetorical question" assumption. You left the door open, so I took the chance to demonstrate that there was another answer to your question, and it's one that doesn't carry much risk of losing players. that can help other players with their games. That's good enough for me. So, you asked why, and now you know my motivations. I try to help people, and you are providing an excellent foil to which I can demonstrate a better method of dealing with issues. I'm thinking my motives are probably not quite what you expected, though.
aecon1 11-20-07, 08:48 AM	Warforge--Fighter7/Artificer1/Wizard1/Juggernaut5 This character seems too powerful for the other player characters. Teifling--Rogue4/Sorc8/Master of the Unseen Hand1 Human--Pal13 Pixie--Druid5/Rogue6 It seems to me that the Warforged if you account for the XP loss for multiclassing is at least equal to a 16th lvl character. Since fighter is a favorite class, he has no XP loss for multiclassing for artificirer only if the level gap between the to classes is even (PHB p61). So in the most preferable way he was advancing lvls as this: Ftr1 - Afr 1 no XP los lvl gained at: 1000xp Ftr1 - Afr 1 - Wzd 1 -20% XPfrom this point on for adding an extra non favorable class; lvl gained at 3000xp Ftr2- Arf 1 - wzd 1 llvl gain at 7800 Ftr2 - Afr 1 - Wzd 1 - jagernaut 1 and this can be because he wont meet the prerequisites for the prestige (but just to ease up the calculation) lvl gained at 12600 xp Ftr2 - Afr 1 - Wzd 1 - jagernaut 2 (18600 XP) Ftr3 - Afr 1 - Wzd 1 - jagernaut 2 (25800 XP) Ftr4 - Afr 1 - Wzd 1 - jagernaut 2 from this point on -40% XP (2 extra non-favorable classes are now uneven) lvl gained at 34200XP Ftr4 - Afr 1 - Wzd 1 - jagernaut 3 lvl gained at 45400XP so to reach Ftr7 - Afr 1 - Wzd 1 - jagernaut 5 You will need 77000XP more You reach 14 lvl at 122400. Normally if you distribute XP evenly to the players the human palladin had to be 16th lvl, unless he died so many times, and your party would be of equall power.
TiwazTyrsfist 11-20-07, 02:12 PM	Warforge--Fighter7/Artificer1/Wizard1/Juggernaut5 This character seems too powerful for the other player characters. Teifling--Rogue4/Sorc8/Master of the Unseen Hand1 Human--Pal13 Pixie--Druid5/Rogue6 Challenging the Warforge without overpowering the other characters is difficult. Any suggestions??? It almost seems that the Warforge race needs an LA +1 or +2. Way too many immunities. Keep in mind that Healing spells have only half effect normally on warforged, and IIRC (don't have the book handy) I think his Juggernaut level is high enough that healing spells don't work at all on him. So, his only healing, since he doesn't heal from resting, comes from his own single level of artificer. This, for a tank/brawler, SHOULD be a major limitation. If not, he may be gaming the rules. Basically, my initial thought is, "Are you using the rules and drawbacks for this character correctly?" If things are really seeming to favor the warforged, sprinkle Artificers into the enemy party. At this point, an artificer could totally mess him up. Disable construct... And if he really gets on your nerves, give the enemy fighter a Mace of Disruption. You know, the thing that insta-kills constructs on a nat 20.
DMDaddy 11-20-07, 08:17 PM	Thanks for more info. I don't use experience penalties for non-favored classes. Next campaign I will. He is having major problems staying healed. The town they are in only has so many Oils of repair. He's starting to see his weaknesses. Not to mention I'm making him follow the rules for using magic items and using scrolls. He looked at me and said, "those rules almost make my Wizard and Artificer classes usless." As far as the last few sessions have went, the WFJ has had his share of troubles. I put a Lich Wizard 13 up against them, but he was in the air and always concealed behind Darkness which surrounded all the walls. The WFJ had nothing. Many rounds on his turn he looked at me and said, "I can't do anything." Meanwhile the Lich with several energy spells, plus many quickened MM and Scorch Ray toasted him round after round. The whole party was truely stumpt. "how do we get this Lich?" Finaly, the Pixie with a few well cast Dispel Magics revealed the Lich and the Paladin who had no ranged weapons threw her Holy sword 30' up and made the final blow. They had to work for that.
Edymnion 11-20-07, 10:31 PM	Warforge--Fighter7/Artificer1/Wizard1/Juggernaut5 This character seems too powerful for the other player characters. Teifling--Rogue4/Sorc8/Master of the Unseen Hand1 Human--Pal13 Pixie--Druid5/Rogue6 It seems to me that the Warforged if you account for the XP loss for multiclassing is at least equal to a 16th lvl character.There is no multiclassing penalty for this character. Warforged have Favored Class: Fighter, so his fighter levels aren't counted for multiclassing penalties in any way (see PHB p. 60; "In such cases, calculate the XP penalty as if the character did not have that class"). His Artificer and Wizard levels are within 1 level of each other, so they don't create any multiclassing penalties, and PrC never count towards MC penalties. So, for that area at least, the character is following the rules.
DMDaddy 11-21-07, 01:37 AM	There is no multiclassing penalty for this character. Warforged have Favored Class: Fighter, so his fighter levels aren't counted for multiclassing penalties in any way (see PHB p. 60; "In such cases, calculate the XP penalty as if the character did not have that class"). His Artificer and Wizard levels are within 1 level of each other, so they don't create any multiclassing penalties, and PrC never count towards MC penalties. So, for that area at least, the character is following the rules. I'm glad you clarified, I was getting ready to have the player of the WFJ look up the rules, to his frowns, no doubt. Check out the Turkey Iron Golem they will face tommorrow. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14382881#post14382881 I've already promised to swallow whole the WFJ. His response, "Bring it on!". The turkey will be controlled by a house Kundarak Dwarf Artificer9/Dragonmarked Heir5 who will have a few scrolls of Disable Construct. Not to mention that he has fortified himself in a large vault under a town bank with all the wards associated with house Kundarak. I'm hoping it's a TPK. Of course someone will come along and bring them back or save the day. Oh yeah, the Tiefling is all wrong also. In order to be a Master of the Unseen hand you have to be able to cast Telekenisis. The player some how thought it was a 4th level spell when in fact it is a 5th level spell which he can't cast until sorc10 level.