Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BoneCleaver 04-19-07, 03:37 AM	This is going to be my first posted question. I will start by saying, warforged are very cool characters and then now my question. when a warforged takes the adamantine body feat he gets the bonuses like he was wearing full plate armor and he can place enhancements on his plating like it was armor. Being a warforged makes u venerbale to rust and acid, but can the enhancement found in Magic item compendium on pg 9 called blueshine negate the venerability? what do you think or is this more a DM ruelling question? There it was, the grand undead army standing in front, ready to be turned into kindle!!!
Kid SixXx 04-19-07, 07:33 AM	DM's call, but WF can have their composite plating enhanced just like it was a suit of armor. Both the Blueshine and the Everbright (from some FR book I can't recall right now, probably MoF) enhancements provide resistance or immunity to rusting and / or acid. If your DM allows it then I don't see why it would be an issue. It's not like he shouldn't given that it's in the RAW and you'd be paying perfectly good money to get the enhancement.
Cifer 04-19-07, 12:26 PM	Being a warforged makes u venerbale to rust and acid Rust, ok, but Acid? Pretty much everything is vulnerable to acid. WF hardly have any special weakness towards it.
Edymnion 04-19-07, 12:32 PM	This is going to be my first posted question. I will start by saying, warforged are very cool characters and then now my question. when a warforged takes the adamantine body feat he gets the bonuses like he was wearing full plate armor and he can place enhancements on his plating like it was armor. Being a warforged makes u venerbale to rust and acid, but can the enhancement found in Magic item compendium on pg 9 called blueshine negate the venerability? what do you think or is this more a DM ruelling question?Its pretty simple, really. Blueshine only protects the ARMOR from rust and acid, not the person in it. A human in blueshine full plate still takes full damage from an acid based attack, its just that after falling into a big pool of acid, his armor will still be shiny and new after he dissolves away. As such, it has no effect what-so-ever on a WF, as any effect that could damage armor essentially just does HP damage to the WF itself (see the Rust information in the WF racial entry), these enhancements are utterly useless to the WF. And yes, it does make sense, because even a Warforged with the Unarmored Body or Ironwood Body feats, which have no metal in their armor at all, still take damage from rust sells and rust monsters, as metal is an integral part of the warforged's construction as a whole. So, in recap, blueshine only gives resistances to the armor, not the person in it, and hence does nothing to protect a warforged.
Kid SixXx 04-19-07, 12:48 PM	So, in recap, blueshine only gives resistances to the armor, not the person in it, and hence does nothing to protect a warforged. That's sorta apples to oranges, donchathink? A normal person can remove a set of blueshine armor, while a WF cannot take off its composite plating. Partial resistances that apply only to the plating opens a big can of worms. That's almost like suggesting that you might be able to bypass the DR provided by Adamantine Body if you use alternate called shot rules and swing for the fibrous parts of the WF's construction so that you don't hit the plating. Has this got something to do with the Blueshine enhancement originally appearing in an FR-related product?
DireHawk 04-19-07, 12:50 PM	I'm sorry, but that just sounds ridiculous. Is metal integral to most normal warforged bodies? Sure. But the purpose of the unarmored and ironwood armor feats is to remove metal as a component from a warforged. If metal were still found in an ironwood warforged body, then he couldn't use druid abilities, yet the text of that particular feat explicitly says he can. I could see an argument for unarmored body maybe, but that really depends on flavor. The warforged with unarmored body likely doesn't have metal on the outside, or at least the exposed metal does not contribute to the warforged's integrity. Anything like that would be on the inside, otherwise one could argue at the very least a warforged with bits of metal on the outside could use it like the studs of studded leather, granting a slight bonus to AC. A rust monster and all the rust effects I've ever seen require the metal parts to be physically touched. If you can't touch it, it don't rust. So no, rust effects should not effect wf with ironwood body or unarmored body, and this is something that needs to be errata'ed in because otherwise rule monkeys could continue to argue a mechanical effect which technically is true, because nothing in those particular feats explicitly says otherwise, even though it goes against all logic and reason. I would say that rust attacks on a Warforged with the blueshine enchantment, because a warforged is going to likely enchant all of the exposed metal (which serves as both skin and armor, even though it isn't technically considered natural armor), because otherwise he would be stupid not to. As for acid, because acid does affect more than armor, I would say resistance still applies (again, because the armor is also a skin, but since there are some exposed areas where this metal skin is not present, some damage may be taken, but reduced as not as much affectable surface area is present). [Edit]: I second Kid SixXx with the DR thing for adamantine armor. Makes sense.
Logos7 04-19-07, 01:30 PM	last time i checked scimitars were still on the druid profeciency list and if you start with them their metal. it's the difference between being encased in metal and holding metal Logos
Cifer 04-19-07, 05:35 PM	A rust monster and all the rust effects I've ever seen require the metal parts to be physically touched. If you can't touch it, it don't rust. See, that's interesting. Next time we go up against rust monsters, I'll just encase my full plate in some fabric. No, I doubt it works that way. So all in all, I'd have to agree with Edy: You can protect your armor, but you can't protect the rest of the 'forged - which makes the whole thing a bit useless.
Edymnion 04-19-07, 06:22 PM	Sure. But the purpose of the unarmored and ironwood armor feats is to remove metal as a component from a warforged. If metal were still found in an ironwood warforged body, then he couldn't use druid abilities, yet the text of that particular feat explicitly says he can.And a plain Warforged with default composite plating can also become a Druid. They can be monks too, giving them all the monk abilities on top of having enchantable armor, giving them the best monk AC in the game. Whats your point? The point stands, however, that unless specifically stated otherwise, a Warforged is just like any other race. It is specifically stated that WF take damage from rusting magic. Nothing in the unarmored or ironwood body feats says that they remove a major racial vulnrability, so they don't. In fact, the only body feats that specifically restrict a WF in these areas are Mithril and Adamantine Body, pretty much specifically because they say they do. Ya just gotta accept that WF have metal as part of their bodies, and that a rust monster or rusting grasp spell will deal damage to them. And that any enchantment that affects *ONLY* the armor and not the person wearing it does not apply to the WF themselves. This is manditory in order to maintain balance, and harks back to "Warforged are no differant than any other race unless specifically stated otherwise." Nowhere in the racial entry does it say "enhancements that effect composite plating affect the warforged as a whole", so they don't.
BoneCleaver 04-19-07, 06:26 PM	THX a lot already guys, so spending the mony on some other effect would be more of a logical choise or i might pass it buy my DM and see what he says. Does anyone have any thoughts on what equipment a warforged 6th lvl fighter/ 2nd lvl juggernaut could be content with. Max gold 30000. and thx A lot already guys. What's this, dawn already? As he looked up he couldn't believe what he saw, bits and pieces of bones, scattered for miles. There on the horizon, one huge burning pile of undead!!!
Kid SixXx 04-20-07, 07:18 AM	So all in all, I'd have to agree with Edy: You can protect your armor, but you can't protect the rest of the 'forged - which makes the whole thing a bit useless. So you're telling me that if a WF spends 5K gp on the enhancement (ie. an enhancement that will be permanent), it still doens't provide the protections listed? Kinda defeats the purpose of even coming up with the enhancement in the first place, doesn't it? What good is acid resistant armor if it doesn't confer some protection to the wearer? Especially if you blast all of that money into the void for the enhancement? It's not like the enchanter is going to give you a refund after your encounter with an Ankheg doesn't go as well as you thought it might. I will have to continue my dissent. A partially protected WF isn't protected at all & that logic would make the Adamantine Body feat useless since all you have to do to bypass the DR is state that you are "aiming for the wood." Either something provides an immunity or it doesn't, there shouldn't be any mechanical in-between. Nowhere in the racial entry does it say "enhancements that effect composite plating affect the warforged as a whole", so they don't. But the DR2/Adamantine that already comes with the AB feat does, even though as you say, the plating doesn't cover the WF all the way around? Come on now, man.... Ya just gotta accept that WF have metal as part of their bodies, and that a rust monster or rusting grasp spell will deal damage to them. That I can accept. Even the "unarmored body" feat is a misnomer since the feat says that the WF still has the composite plates that other WF has: they're just not thick enough to provide the protection conveyed to a standard model. The illustration of the Re-Forged swashbuckler in the RoE book you dislike so much visually sums up that point. I've never used the Ironwood Body feat that much, but I would assume the same as Unarmored Body: the ironwood in the fibers provide the bulk of the protection instead of the plating, which is there pretty much for show as with the UB feat.
Cifer 04-20-07, 09:40 AM	So you're telling me that if a WF spends 5K gp on the enhancement (ie. an enhancement that will be permanent), it still doens't provide the protections listed? It has precisely the protections listed - it protects the armor. However, the armor already is protected (can't be targeted seperately from the WF who receives damage instead of losing the armor bonus). What good is acid resistant armor if it doesn't confer some protection to the wearer? For everyone but the warforged: You can afford to botch your saves against acid attacks without kissing your cool armor good-bye. Quite practical if you yourself are immune to acid. In the same way you could ask what the use of Light Fortification armor is - after all, warforged already have that benefit and it doesn't stack. The answer is "There are more characters than just warforged and there will always be some enhancements that are completely useless for some races". But the DR2/Adamantine that already comes with the AB feat does, even though as you say, the plating doesn't cover the WF all the way around? Yes, it does. You can make an adamantine chainshirt protecting only your torso and still receive 1/-.
Kid SixXx 04-20-07, 10:51 AM	For everyone but the warforged: You can afford to botch your saves against acid attacks without kissing your cool armor good-bye. Quite practical if you yourself are immune to acid. And invested 5000 gold pieces to become so. It's not like you get Blueshine for free. And after he gets the enhancement, he's stuck with it, while any other person can upgrade his armor simply by finding another suit of armor in a treasure pile or having a different suit of armor enchanted.. Yes, it does. You can make an adamantine chainshirt protecting only your torso and still receive 1/-. So you accept that the adamantine chainshirt should provide uniform DR (even for areas the shirt doesn't cover) for a human, but balk at the Blueshine enhancement providing uniform rust and acid resistance for a Warforged?
okaynowa 04-20-07, 12:03 PM	It sounds like the intention of blueshine is to protect arms/armor from attacks that have the side effect of damaging equipment. To protect characters from acid damage, there's the acid resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#acidResistance) special quality, which costs a minimum of 18,000 gp to add to armor. I DM a campaign that includes a warforged character. If the player wanted to acquire this blueshine enhancement for the express purpose of preventing hit point damage to the character, I would veto the request because it means getting an advantage already described elsewhere, but for less than a third of the list price. However, I would point out to the player that the warforged character's composite plating can't be damaged as an item any more than the warforged can be "disarmed" of its slam attack. If the player wanted an enchancement that specifically protects the warforged character from rust-based hit point damage (a perfectly reasonable request), I would draft an armor quality modeled after the prerequisites and prices of existing energy resistance qualities. That would seem like the most straightforward course of action for our campaign.
Kid SixXx 04-20-07, 12:07 PM	It sounds like the intention of blueshine is to protect arms/armor from attacks that have the side effect of damaging equipment. To protect characters from acid damage, there's the acid resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#acidResistance) special quality, which costs a minimum of 18,000 gp to add to armor. Well now. Perhaps if I'd researched prices a bit more thoroughly I wouldn't have harped so much on how much Blueshine costs. If the player wanted an enchancement that specifically protects the warforged character from rust-based hit point damage (a perfectly reasonable request), I would draft an armor quality modeled after the prerequisites and prices of existing energy resistance qualities. Which incoporates my argument of getting the resistances that you pay for. That is a perfectly fine compromise.
BoneCleaver 04-20-07, 05:13 PM	So if i am not mistaking, if i take the blueshine enhancement for the WF i would take the dmg of acid and rust attacks but it wouldn't be visible on the metal parts of my WF, would the dr aply by the way on acid and rust attacks even?
Cifer 04-20-07, 06:37 PM	would the dr aply by the way on acid and rust attacks even? Damage Reduction never applies to rust or acid attacks - acid is an energy attack which you protect yourself against with energy resistance or -immunity (and the blueshine thingy doesn't work on you there) while rust is an untyped kind of damage, so there's no protection from either Damage Reduction or Energy Resistance unless it's specified there is.
RogueElement 04-20-07, 07:02 PM	Protecting all your items from rust attacks (including a warforge's special damage from rust) costs less than 500gp. "Durable" from Magic Item Compendium protects the armor or weapon from rusting and acid attacks and costs 500 gp. A Gauntlet of Rust costs 11,500 gp and protects you and ALL of your equipment from rust and lets you cast Rusting Grasp 1/day. An item that casts Rusting Grasp 1/day only costs 11,200gp. Hence the protection from rust quality of the Gauntlet costs only 300gp. We are talking about protection from one monster and one spell in the entire universe. It shouldn't be expensive folks.
Edymnion 04-20-07, 07:10 PM	So you're telling me that if a WF spends 5K gp on the enhancement (ie. an enhancement that will be permanent), it still doens't provide the protections listed?Bingo. Just like if they got their plating enhanced with Light Fortification it wouldn't do a darn thing. Or if they took Adamantine Body and then got impervious (I think thats it, the one that grants you some minor DR) it wouldn't do you any good. Kinda defeats the purpose of even coming up with the enhancement in the first place, doesn't it?Now we're just being silly. "An enhancement from faerun doesn't mesh well with my warforged!" Of course it doens't. Not every enhancement is going to be useful for every race. Waterbreathing enhancements on armor are useless to an Aquatic Elf, but that doesn't mean its worthless to EVERYBODY ELSE that gets use out of it.It's not like the enchanter is going to give you a refund after your encounter with an Ankheg doesn't go as well as you thought it might.Please, its not like the DM forced it on you. If you go spending a whole lot of money on gear before you even check to see if it will do you any good is your own problem. Just like if you bought a flaming burst weapon because you were going to fight a red dragon. Its up to you as the player and as the character to make sure you aren't buying useless magic. Either something provides an immunity or it doesn't, there shouldn't be any mechanical in-between.You're right. There is no immunity because the enhancement doesn't say it does. Seriously, you have to intentionally missread the entry to try and make it give you blanket immunity in the first place.
Kid SixXx 04-20-07, 09:12 PM	"An enhancement from faerun doesn't mesh well with my warforged!" Of course it doens't. Not every enhancement is going to be useful for every race. Waterbreathing enhancements on armor are useless to an Aquatic Elf, but that doesn't mean its worthless to EVERYBODY ELSE that gets use out of it. I'm a human who's armor doesn't rust. Big friggin' whoop since that's one whole monster and two or three spells I no longer have to fear, unless the DM decides to allow rust monsters to breed like rabbits. But yeah, I've re-read the enhancement description & it does say that the armor itself is immune to acid, but there's no mention of a corresponding energy resistance or acid immunity given to the wearer of said armor, so it sounds like those immunities are there for fluff purposes and not much else.
Edymnion 04-20-07, 09:47 PM	I'm a human who's armor doesn't rust. Big friggin' whoop since that's one whole monster and two or three spells I no longer have to fear, unless the DM decides to allow rust monsters to breed like rabbits.Which is why its so cheap. Rusting may be a rare event, but when a single CR 3 monster can eat EPIC level armor with nothing but a touch attack, and all it takes is Reach Spell to turn rusting grasp into a ray, or spectral hand to make it a ranged touch attack, it becomes a problem. The enchantment is a very specific counter to a very specific problem. It is not intended to be some blanket uber protection. Its like a broach of shielding, it protects from one specific thing (like magic missle) and is utterly useless against everything else. They just tacked on a few extras so that it isn't quite so bad. And it just so happens that the WF are already naturally immune to the one problem that this enhancement was designed to counter.
Kid SixXx 04-21-07, 09:27 AM	and all it takes is Reach Spell to turn rusting grasp into a ray, or spectral hand to make it a ranged touch attack, it becomes a problem. You don't need Reach Spell to turn Rusting Grasp into a ray. Rusting Ray is already a documented spell in the Spell Compendium.