Warforged and Incarnum [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warforged and Incarnum [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ArenTrel
10-07-07, 02:48 AM With RPGA finally coming to my local game store I was looking for a new and interesting concept for a character. Having finally gotten a look at Magic of the Incarnum, I thought it was an interesting idea, even more so with my favorite race from Eberron, the Warforged.

So far one person I told about it though it would be a cool concept, while the other I told about it said that it wasn't possible cause Warforged don't have a soul.

I wanted a wider range of feedback. Either way I will probably be uding the idea but I wanted to hear what others could contribute to the concept.
Sarig the Genie
10-07-07, 07:53 AM I haven't seen anything indicating that warforged don't have souls, I thought that was the big thing seperating them from normal constructs.
Artector
10-07-07, 08:48 AM A warforged can do anything a human can do, UNLESS it is called out by the rules that the warforged can't do it.

There's nothing mechanical impinging on your ability to play a warforged totemist/incarnate/soulborn(?).

The issue of warforged having a soul is something campaign specific, much like the cause of the Mourning. Tts up to the DM if they do or don't.

Reasons for why they have souls:
Can be raised
Think, speak, and feel emotions
Ghulra (the forehead symbol) is a unique identifier for each warforged

Reasons for why not:
Are able to be produced
Aren't 'naturally' made
"They're robots!"

I'm in the "they have a soul" camp myself.
smerwin29
10-07-07, 09:34 AM For play in the RPGA's Xen'drik Expeditions campaign, a warforged can use Incarnum just like any other character. Personally, I think incarnum is too cool a concept to deny anyone.
TheKeyofE
10-07-07, 09:57 AM It really doesn't matter whether 'Forged have souls or not. They can use incarnum anyway. Incarnum is soul energy, but you don't need a soul of your own to manipulate that energy. You just steal from the leftover bits of souls throughout the cosmos.
Edymnion
10-07-07, 12:17 PM See, this is where the RPGA works to your advantage.
It doesn't matter what common sense or flavor says, you can do anything that technically works within the rules. There is nothing in the Warforged rules that says they can't use incarnum, and there is nothing in the incarnum rules that says it can't be used by warforged.

Hence, it doesn't matter what anybody says, its rules legal, the RPGA has to let you play it, they simply aren't allowed to say no.
ArenTrel
10-07-07, 08:41 PM Thanks for the input first off.

Now to reply to some of what was said, as in my originally post I said I would be doing it no matter what since from my looking I haven't found anything against it. Just wanted to see what others thought of the concept, both from a mechanical and a story standpoint.

I am in the camp that they do have souls, even though one friend I spoke to said that they couldn't cause they weren't created by the Gods. Now while the Gods are powerful, I don't think they are the sole creators of all souls.

That being said the rough idea for why my Warforged character was created with it was that in some way, some form of Incarnum infected the Creation Forge while he was being created.

Well I have replied, now to see who else decides to post about the idea.
Edymnion
10-07-07, 09:25 PM I am in the camp that they do have souls, even though one friend I spoke to said that they couldn't cause they weren't created by the Gods. Now while the Gods are powerful, I don't think they are the sole creators of all souls. Two things with that one. The gods didn't create the races in Eberron. The Sovereign Host has *NOTHING* to do with creation in any shape, form, or fashion. For that matter, one of the pivotal points in Eberron religion is that there is no real evidence that the gods even exist in the first place. The closest we have is that the dragon Eberron created the mortal races, but given that most of the races did not exist when Eberron created the world (at least, I don't think there's any evidence for humans or elves or dwarves in the Age of Demons/Dragons/Etc), even that argument loses a lot of weight.

Combine that with the fact that a WF can be raised, and it is effected by spells that target the soul (you can hit one with a Magic Jar, and if they draw the Void from a Deck of Many Things, they still collapse), and there is more evidence for WF having souls than there is against it.

And like was said, nothing in Incarnum says that you need a soul to use incarnum. You use the power of OTHER souls, not your own.
Lord_Tirian
10-08-07, 02:43 PM And like was said, nothing in Incarnum says that you need a soul to use incarnum. You use the power of OTHER souls, not your own.
Tangent: And that would make a soulless warforged Incarnate even more interesting: While he has no soul, he can still understand the concept of a soul, since he works with them.

He could even "borrow" the souls, so whenever he uses his Incarnum abilities heavily or changes them, he also changes in personality, since the lack of a own soul makes him more sensitive to other souls.

Just as a RP-idea. Though *my* warforged are usually ensouled.

Cheers, LT.
Gurv
10-08-07, 04:15 PM Another interesting concept that I have seen floating around is that the creation of the warforged may have been accomplished by incarnum-based magic. This explains why the process is so poorly understood: it uses a method that Cannith can duplicate but doesn't really understand.
Artector
10-08-07, 07:23 PM Another interesting concept that I have seen floating around is that the creation of the warforged may have been accomplished by incarnum-based magic. This explains why the process is so poorly understood: it uses a method that Cannith can duplicate but doesn't really understand.

That would almost work in my Eberron... but Incarnum was a goblin-thing, (and even then not real well known).

Hmm...

Actually I like the idea of a warforged with a "loose" soul. He can reshape his own soul.
TiwazTyrsfist
10-09-07, 12:00 PM Undead can use Incarnum. And if anything intellegent "Doesn't have a Soul", it's probably the undead...

I'm very strongly in the 'Warforged have souls' camp.
ArenTrel
10-13-07, 01:28 AM Well I would like to thank everyone for input on this issue. But it doesn't matter much anymore since tonight at the RPGA game that was being run, I was told that I could not use the Magic of Incarnum. So that is that, three weeks of concept building out the window.
smerwin29
10-15-07, 12:12 PM Well I would like to thank everyone for input on this issue. But it doesn't matter much anymore since tonight at the RPGA game that was being run, I was told that I could not use the Magic of Incarnum. So that is that, three weeks of concept building out the window.

ArenTrel, please PM me with the details of this refusal to let you use Magic of Incarnum. If this was a Xen'drik Expeditions event, I need to know.

Thanks,

Shawn
Factionmaster - Crimson Codex
Xen'drik Expeditions
Gurv
10-15-07, 03:33 PM Actually I like the idea of a warforged with a "loose" soul. He can reshape his own soul.

To take the analogy a little further, warforged are constructs. Constructs are basically a form of magical item, taken to an extreme. So are soulmelds. Combine the two types and you get creatures like the warforged: ensouled constructs with the potential to grow and change. Both physically and spiritually.
Edymnion
10-15-07, 08:51 PM Well I would like to thank everyone for input on this issue. But it doesn't matter much anymore since tonight at the RPGA game that was being run, I was told that I could not use the Magic of Incarnum. So that is that, three weeks of concept building out the window.Um, they can't do that. RPGA events are *NOT* allowed to say no to RPGA accepted material. As in, the DM cannot say that he just won't allow it, because he really has no choice in the matter.

Honestly, its one of the reasons why I hate the RPGA with such a passion. Everything I can't stand about it all come back to this one point. The DM is not allowed to say no to anything the RPGA has already said yes to.
skrap-san
11-11-07, 02:48 PM Just to enhance the discussion a bit more. Thrane refuses to recognize warforged as living creatures because no resurrected warforged have any memories of an afterlife (Don't remember what book sorry, but i suspect races of Eberron). And that this was one of their great oppositions against recognizing them as living creatures.
Siberys
11-18-07, 11:36 PM Funny how MoI has a template that grants constructs the Living Construct subtype...
abitslow
12-04-07, 06:04 PM all these reasons, are why i HATE the rpga. they have the crappiest rules and attitudes of any gamers, especiely here in alabama. i hate it when a book comes out; you shell out he 30-50 dollors for it, but, its good enough to see print but not good enough to play. go to the 7th layer of hell rpga.
ArcTan
12-07-07, 09:29 PM Just to enhance the discussion a bit more. Thrane refuses to recognize warforged as living creatures because no resurrected warforged have any memories of an afterlife (Don't remember what book sorry, but i suspect races of Eberron). And that this was one of their great oppositions against recognizing them as living creatures.

ECS, actually.

Anyway, there's no issue if Incarnum is poorly-understood by most people in Eberron such that the "It uses SOUL POWER" theory is only one theory among many for how it works. A Warforged melder wouldn't really be any more controversial than any other user of Incarnum then.
Tetsubo
12-09-07, 04:00 AM Heck, you could have fluff that says Warforged were *created* via Incarnum. That their 'souls' are the stuff of Incarnum itself...
RavenGraygem
12-10-07, 11:13 PM Thanks for the input first off.

Now to reply to some of what was said, as in my originally post I said I would be doing it no matter what since from my looking I haven't found anything against it. Just wanted to see what others thought of the concept, both from a mechanical and a story standpoint.

I am in the camp that they do have souls, even though one friend I spoke to said that they couldn't cause they weren't created by the Gods. Now while the Gods are powerful, I don't think they are the sole creators of all souls.

That being said the rough idea for why my Warforged character was created with it was that in some way, some form of Incarnum infected the Creation Forge while he was being created.

Well I have replied, now to see who else decides to post about the idea.

WotC deities have pretty much zip to do with souls until after the bodies those souls inhabit are used up. In the Asharadalon Saga (what I call the series of WotC 3.0 adventures that all contain references to that vile lizard), the final adventure takes place in the Bastion of Unborn Souls (which is referenced a few times in MoI, along with Asharadalon himself).

The Bastion is were unborn souls are created/collected before being passed out to their appropriate destinations in the multiverse, and all deities, everywhere, are absolutely prohibited in messing with the various Bastions (there are more than one), on pain of eternal imprisonment at the very least. Reading between MoI and Bastion of Broken Souls, it's pretty clear that divine involvement in unborn souls is limited to making sure they stay well away from them.

And that bring up an interesting sidenote: travel to anyplace in the multiverse should be theoretically possible using the Bastions as changeover points, even "closed" worlds like Athas and Eberron.
clayball
12-11-07, 01:03 PM I would rule that the power that allows Warforged to be raised and resurected would llow them to use Incarnum.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArenTrel 10-07-07, 02:48 AM	With RPGA finally coming to my local game store I was looking for a new and interesting concept for a character. Having finally gotten a look at Magic of the Incarnum, I thought it was an interesting idea, even more so with my favorite race from Eberron, the Warforged. So far one person I told about it though it would be a cool concept, while the other I told about it said that it wasn't possible cause Warforged don't have a soul. I wanted a wider range of feedback. Either way I will probably be uding the idea but I wanted to hear what others could contribute to the concept.
Sarig the Genie 10-07-07, 07:53 AM	I haven't seen anything indicating that warforged don't have souls, I thought that was the big thing seperating them from normal constructs.
Artector 10-07-07, 08:48 AM	A warforged can do anything a human can do, UNLESS it is called out by the rules that the warforged can't do it. There's nothing mechanical impinging on your ability to play a warforged totemist/incarnate/soulborn(?). The issue of warforged having a soul is something campaign specific, much like the cause of the Mourning. Tts up to the DM if they do or don't. Reasons for why they have souls: Can be raised Think, speak, and feel emotions Ghulra (the forehead symbol) is a unique identifier for each warforged Reasons for why not: Are able to be produced Aren't 'naturally' made "They're robots!" I'm in the "they have a soul" camp myself.
smerwin29 10-07-07, 09:34 AM	For play in the RPGA's Xen'drik Expeditions campaign, a warforged can use Incarnum just like any other character. Personally, I think incarnum is too cool a concept to deny anyone.
TheKeyofE 10-07-07, 09:57 AM	It really doesn't matter whether 'Forged have souls or not. They can use incarnum anyway. Incarnum is soul energy, but you don't need a soul of your own to manipulate that energy. You just steal from the leftover bits of souls throughout the cosmos.
Edymnion 10-07-07, 12:17 PM	See, this is where the RPGA works to your advantage. It doesn't matter what common sense or flavor says, you can do anything that technically works within the rules. There is nothing in the Warforged rules that says they can't use incarnum, and there is nothing in the incarnum rules that says it can't be used by warforged. Hence, it doesn't matter what anybody says, its rules legal, the RPGA has to let you play it, they simply aren't allowed to say no.
ArenTrel 10-07-07, 08:41 PM	Thanks for the input first off. Now to reply to some of what was said, as in my originally post I said I would be doing it no matter what since from my looking I haven't found anything against it. Just wanted to see what others thought of the concept, both from a mechanical and a story standpoint. I am in the camp that they do have souls, even though one friend I spoke to said that they couldn't cause they weren't created by the Gods. Now while the Gods are powerful, I don't think they are the sole creators of all souls. That being said the rough idea for why my Warforged character was created with it was that in some way, some form of Incarnum infected the Creation Forge while he was being created. Well I have replied, now to see who else decides to post about the idea.
Edymnion 10-07-07, 09:25 PM	I am in the camp that they do have souls, even though one friend I spoke to said that they couldn't cause they weren't created by the Gods. Now while the Gods are powerful, I don't think they are the sole creators of all souls. Two things with that one. The gods didn't create the races in Eberron. The Sovereign Host has NOTHING to do with creation in any shape, form, or fashion. For that matter, one of the pivotal points in Eberron religion is that there is no real evidence that the gods even exist in the first place. The closest we have is that the dragon Eberron created the mortal races, but given that most of the races did not exist when Eberron created the world (at least, I don't think there's any evidence for humans or elves or dwarves in the Age of Demons/Dragons/Etc), even that argument loses a lot of weight. Combine that with the fact that a WF can be raised, and it is effected by spells that target the soul (you can hit one with a Magic Jar, and if they draw the Void from a Deck of Many Things, they still collapse), and there is more evidence for WF having souls than there is against it. And like was said, nothing in Incarnum says that you need a soul to use incarnum. You use the power of OTHER souls, not your own.
Lord_Tirian 10-08-07, 02:43 PM	And like was said, nothing in Incarnum says that you need a soul to use incarnum. You use the power of OTHER souls, not your own. Tangent: And that would make a soulless warforged Incarnate even more interesting: While he has no soul, he can still understand the concept of a soul, since he works with them. He could even "borrow" the souls, so whenever he uses his Incarnum abilities heavily or changes them, he also changes in personality, since the lack of a own soul makes him more sensitive to other souls. Just as a RP-idea. Though my warforged are usually ensouled. Cheers, LT.
Gurv 10-08-07, 04:15 PM	Another interesting concept that I have seen floating around is that the creation of the warforged may have been accomplished by incarnum-based magic. This explains why the process is so poorly understood: it uses a method that Cannith can duplicate but doesn't really understand.
Artector 10-08-07, 07:23 PM	Another interesting concept that I have seen floating around is that the creation of the warforged may have been accomplished by incarnum-based magic. This explains why the process is so poorly understood: it uses a method that Cannith can duplicate but doesn't really understand. That would almost work in my Eberron... but Incarnum was a goblin-thing, (and even then not real well known). Hmm... Actually I like the idea of a warforged with a "loose" soul. He can reshape his own soul.
TiwazTyrsfist 10-09-07, 12:00 PM	Undead can use Incarnum. And if anything intellegent "Doesn't have a Soul", it's probably the undead... I'm very strongly in the 'Warforged have souls' camp.
ArenTrel 10-13-07, 01:28 AM	Well I would like to thank everyone for input on this issue. But it doesn't matter much anymore since tonight at the RPGA game that was being run, I was told that I could not use the Magic of Incarnum. So that is that, three weeks of concept building out the window.
smerwin29 10-15-07, 12:12 PM	Well I would like to thank everyone for input on this issue. But it doesn't matter much anymore since tonight at the RPGA game that was being run, I was told that I could not use the Magic of Incarnum. So that is that, three weeks of concept building out the window. ArenTrel, please PM me with the details of this refusal to let you use Magic of Incarnum. If this was a Xen'drik Expeditions event, I need to know. Thanks, Shawn Factionmaster - Crimson Codex Xen'drik Expeditions
Gurv 10-15-07, 03:33 PM	Actually I like the idea of a warforged with a "loose" soul. He can reshape his own soul. To take the analogy a little further, warforged are constructs. Constructs are basically a form of magical item, taken to an extreme. So are soulmelds. Combine the two types and you get creatures like the warforged: ensouled constructs with the potential to grow and change. Both physically and spiritually.
Edymnion 10-15-07, 08:51 PM	Well I would like to thank everyone for input on this issue. But it doesn't matter much anymore since tonight at the RPGA game that was being run, I was told that I could not use the Magic of Incarnum. So that is that, three weeks of concept building out the window.Um, they can't do that. RPGA events are NOT allowed to say no to RPGA accepted material. As in, the DM cannot say that he just won't allow it, because he really has no choice in the matter. Honestly, its one of the reasons why I hate the RPGA with such a passion. Everything I can't stand about it all come back to this one point. The DM is not allowed to say no to anything the RPGA has already said yes to.
skrap-san 11-11-07, 02:48 PM	Just to enhance the discussion a bit more. Thrane refuses to recognize warforged as living creatures because no resurrected warforged have any memories of an afterlife (Don't remember what book sorry, but i suspect races of Eberron). And that this was one of their great oppositions against recognizing them as living creatures.
Siberys 11-18-07, 11:36 PM	Funny how MoI has a template that grants constructs the Living Construct subtype...
abitslow 12-04-07, 06:04 PM	all these reasons, are why i HATE the rpga. they have the crappiest rules and attitudes of any gamers, especiely here in alabama. i hate it when a book comes out; you shell out he 30-50 dollors for it, but, its good enough to see print but not good enough to play. go to the 7th layer of hell rpga.
ArcTan 12-07-07, 09:29 PM	Just to enhance the discussion a bit more. Thrane refuses to recognize warforged as living creatures because no resurrected warforged have any memories of an afterlife (Don't remember what book sorry, but i suspect races of Eberron). And that this was one of their great oppositions against recognizing them as living creatures. ECS, actually. Anyway, there's no issue if Incarnum is poorly-understood by most people in Eberron such that the "It uses SOUL POWER" theory is only one theory among many for how it works. A Warforged melder wouldn't really be any more controversial than any other user of Incarnum then.
Tetsubo 12-09-07, 04:00 AM	Heck, you could have fluff that says Warforged were created via Incarnum. That their 'souls' are the stuff of Incarnum itself...
RavenGraygem 12-10-07, 11:13 PM	Thanks for the input first off. Now to reply to some of what was said, as in my originally post I said I would be doing it no matter what since from my looking I haven't found anything against it. Just wanted to see what others thought of the concept, both from a mechanical and a story standpoint. I am in the camp that they do have souls, even though one friend I spoke to said that they couldn't cause they weren't created by the Gods. Now while the Gods are powerful, I don't think they are the sole creators of all souls. That being said the rough idea for why my Warforged character was created with it was that in some way, some form of Incarnum infected the Creation Forge while he was being created. Well I have replied, now to see who else decides to post about the idea. WotC deities have pretty much zip to do with souls until after the bodies those souls inhabit are used up. In the Asharadalon Saga (what I call the series of WotC 3.0 adventures that all contain references to that vile lizard), the final adventure takes place in the Bastion of Unborn Souls (which is referenced a few times in MoI, along with Asharadalon himself). The Bastion is were unborn souls are created/collected before being passed out to their appropriate destinations in the multiverse, and all deities, everywhere, are absolutely prohibited in messing with the various Bastions (there are more than one), on pain of eternal imprisonment at the very least. Reading between MoI and Bastion of Broken Souls, it's pretty clear that divine involvement in unborn souls is limited to making sure they stay well away from them. And that bring up an interesting sidenote: travel to anyplace in the multiverse should be theoretically possible using the Bastions as changeover points, even "closed" worlds like Athas and Eberron.
clayball 12-11-07, 01:03 PM	I would rule that the power that allows Warforged to be raised and resurected would llow them to use Incarnum.