Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drakshasak 06-25-07, 11:15 AM	Well i was wondering. the warforged are immune to exhausting and fatigue. and according to the PHB you can run over long periods of time due to the runner becomming exhausted. So the warforged should by RAW be able to run forever. In the game we have now our warforged fighter dont like horses so he chooses to run instead. so he can run X3 and he has adamantine armor so he can run 20ftX3 60 ft all day. that is as fast as a horse so that fits perfectly. But we are starting another campaign where i am playing a monk. and i began thinking about how fast a warforged monk could travel. we are starting at level 6 so my speed would be 50ftX4. thats 2000ft a minute. with the run feat thats 2500ft på minute. in 24 hours nonstop run that is 681miles. I was thinking of making a monk with the history of a courier. This running far ability is not much worth when the rest of the party can only travel 48 miles per day with their horses :) would you agree to this as far as the rules go. and flavor of the race
Edymnion 06-25-07, 12:36 PM	Well i was wondering. the warforged are immune to exhausting and fatigue. and according to the PHB you can run over long periods of time due to the runner becomming exhausted. So the warforged should by RAW be able to run forever. <snip> would you agree to this as far as the rules go. and flavor of the raceNo, read the rules on Forced March and running again. If you go for more than 8 hours, you still take non-lethal damage, you are just immune to the fatigue that said damage causes. And you still have to make your checks to keep running. Explain it away as joints overheating or some such, but the standard rules still apply.
Drakshasak 06-25-07, 01:11 PM	hmm i have read it through and you are right. allthough i did find that if you hustle a long time you take non-lethal damage which causes you to be exhausted and later fatigued. but if you take the Improved Resilience feat you get immune to non-lethal damage which would allow a warforged to hustle forever. that would give a level 6 monk a speed of 240miles per 24 hour. that is good enough to be a courier
Ozymandias V. 06-28-07, 05:52 PM	The Peregrine Runner prestige class has a (near) capstone ability that makes the character immune to all exhaustion and fatigue effects. It says that this allows the character to run and climb CEASELESSLY. Obviously if he still takes subdual damage then he can't actually do it ceaselessly. So what we have here is two official sources providing conflicting information. In the absence of errata, I am more inclined to go with the printed PrC than the FAQ which is known for making mistakes sometimes.
Lord_Zzyzx 06-29-07, 03:26 PM	there was a thread a few weeks ago that dealt with this issue. One post had an interesting take on this. The poster's contention that was although using feats and class features you could do away with all the damage in the short term, in the long term you would have wear and tear on the warforged. Imagine, for instance, you were able to rig a device where you could supply endless oil and gas to your car. Pursuant to that you ran the car day and night for a really long time. Ultimately, you would have problems due to the heat build-up and friction. In a sense, you would be unnaturally aging your warforged. In the end it is a DM call. Moreover, if you are able to do this type of forced march so can any other warforged with the same feats. What would stop the Lord of Blades from dropping his army on the doorstep of anyone, anywhere, in Khorvaire in a day?
Shady314 06-29-07, 04:01 PM	there was a thread a few weeks ago that dealt with this issue. One post had an interesting take on this. The poster's contention that was although using feats and class features you could do away with all the damage in the short term, in the long term you would have wear and tear on the warforged. Imagine, for instance, you were able to rig a device where you could supply endless oil and gas to your car. Pursuant to that you ran the car day and night for a really long time. Ultimately, you would have problems due to the heat build-up and friction. In a sense, you would be unnaturally aging your warforged. In the end it is a DM call. Moreover, if you are able to do this type of forced march so can any other warforged with the same feats. What would stop the Lord of Blades from dropping his army on the doorstep of anyone, anywhere, in Khorvaire in a day? On the other hand the "wear and tear" a warforged or any creature experiences in DnD IS the non-lethal damage. Warforged also only suffer penalties for aging once. And afterwards they apparently live forever. I have mixed feelings on this whole issue. On the one hand taking non-lethal damage when you don't suffer fatigue is rather dumb. Also warforged are not mechanical devices. "Wear and tear" doesn't come into play unless you force your WF players to stop by a blacksmith or artificer for a tune up every couple thousand miles. Though WF may not heal naturally their bodies are clearly supplying some sort of upkeep in keeping their joints lubricated and everything. And I don't much like the forced march rules in general. On the other hand it's an obvious play balance issue. So for the sake of gameplay over the realism I don't let Warforged run or hustle indefinitely. I do let them walk indefinitely though. If you allow Improved Resiliency from RoE then yes a Warforged could run forever. I'm not sure if I'd allow it. It's never come up. I might restrict it to forged with adamantine body or maybe juggernaut levels and handwave it away as simply not available to less construct-like Warforged. Then it'd still be a pretty awesome way to get over your movement limitations without being as insane.
Lafarallin 06-29-07, 04:45 PM	Right out of the Main 3.5 Faq offered on this website: How long can a warforged run? How long can it hustle? How long can it make a forced march? A warforged can't run any longer than a normal character (Player's Handbook, page 144). A warforged suffers all the effects of hustling (Player's Handbook, page 164) except for the fatigue (since warforged are by definition immune to fatigue). Unless the warforged has access to healing, eventually it can hustle itself to negative hit points. The same is true of a warforged making a forced march. While it can't become fatigued, it still suffers the nonlethal damage caused by a failed Constitution check.
Ozymandias V. 06-29-07, 05:54 PM	And like I said, Peregrine Runner PrC, run forever blah blah due to fatigue and exhaustion immunity, lack of errata, FAQ has been wrong before, blah. Since the FAQ contradicts information in another 3.5 source, it becomes a matter of preference.
Lafarallin 06-29-07, 06:05 PM	And like I said, Peregrine Runner PrC, run forever blah blah due to fatigue and exhaustion immunity, lack of errata, FAQ has been wrong before, blah. Since the FAQ contradicts information in another 3.5 source, it becomes a matter of preference. WTF, dude...the faq clearly states you can't as a warforged. Now pay attention here..I'll try to help you through this. Inexhaustible Stamina (EX) At 9th level and higher, a peregrine runner is a paragon of fitness, able to run and climb ceaselessly. He has immunity to all fatigue and exhaustion effects. Okay...yes it states he has immunity to all fatigue and exhaustion effects; however, where do you see that it states this is "WHY" he/she can run or climb ceaselessly. Could they be two related benefits of the power but not exactly linked? You're assuming a lot and reading a lot into it. It clearly states the peregrine runner can run and climb ceaselessly. It then adds that they have immunity to fatigue and exhaustion. Okay...this doesn't in any way conflict with the fact that warforged can't do the same thing. I'm noticing a pattern of selective reading here regarding many rules. I especially love the whole, well that could be wrong, so I'm going to do whatever I want anyway.
Drakshasak 06-29-07, 06:28 PM	Right out of the Main 3.5 Faq offered on this website: How long can a warforged run? How long can it hustle? How long can it make a forced march? A warforged can't run any longer than a normal character (Player's Handbook, page 144). A warforged suffers all the effects of hustling (Player's Handbook, page 164) except for the fatigue (since warforged are by definition immune to fatigue). Unless the warforged has access to healing, eventually it can hustle itself to negative hit points. The same is true of a warforged making a forced march. While it can't become fatigued, it still suffers the nonlethal damage caused by a failed Constitution check. Well this is my point. they dont get fatigued sp they only get the nonlethal damage. but with the Improved Resilience feat, which make them immune to nonlethal damage, they should be able to run forever. Rules wise that is. Am I mistaken in this or?????
Lafarallin 06-29-07, 06:41 PM	Well this is my point. they dont get fatigued sp they only get the nonlethal damage. but with the Improved Resilience feat, which make them immune to nonlethal damage, they should be able to run forever. Rules wise that is. Am I mistaken in this or????? If they are immune to non-lethal damage, then definately. They would be immune to every negative result from force march or hustle.
Ozymandias V. 06-30-07, 03:02 PM	Actually it's mostly "the FAQ is full of crap, it is suggesting something is is completely irrational both inside of and outside of the game, so I'm ignoring it, and I'm using this example of immunity to Exhaustion and Fatigue as a reason." Because really, the fatigue and subdual damage come from the same source. If you don't take one, you can't take the other. It's like saying "Oh yes, you see, Parboil uses heat to cause Int damage, and even though you're now immune to heat, you still take Int damage because...er..."
Lafarallin 06-30-07, 03:04 PM	Actually it's mostly "the FAQ is full of crap, it is suggesting something is is completely irrational both inside of and outside of the game, so I'm ignoring it, and I'm using this example of immunity to Exhaustion and Fatigue as a reason." Because really, the fatigue and subdual damage come from the same source. If you don't take one, you can't take the other. It's like saying "Oh yes, you see, Parboil uses heat to cause Int damage, and even though you're now immune to heat, you still take Int damage because...er..." Do what you want to. You can ignore or change every rule you want. I'm just stating per RAW a Peregine Runner can do it, and a warforged character can not. I personally think a warforged should be able to run all day long, just like an undead creature can/or should be able to. Just makes more sense and fits more into the perfect soldier view, and what they were designed to do.
Lafarallin 06-30-07, 03:08 PM	For that matter, I also think a warforged shouldn't smell, taste, or have very strong (if any) sense of feeling. Makes much more sense to me that as half living/half construct, they should share some of the sensory deficits shared by constructs.
Ozymandias V. 06-30-07, 03:21 PM	They're not supposed to be able to smell without a Tracker Mask, unless they've been hit by some kind of product inconsistency (which seems to happen a lot). I don't recall them having a sense of taste. Do they? O_o As for sense of touch...I dunno, I don't recall it saying they have a great sense of touch either. It's entirely possible that what you want is indeed the current state of things.
Lafarallin 06-30-07, 03:33 PM	They're not supposed to be able to smell without a Tracker Mask, unless they've been hit by some kind of product inconsistency (which seems to happen a lot). This was acknowledged as an error in Races of Eberron. They should have all five senses just like any other creature. Even though it makes more sense that they shouldn't smell or taste.
stone_dog 06-30-07, 06:02 PM	They do smell and taste, they just can't recognize things as smelling good or bad without being told. The tracker's mask lets them actually smell like other humanoids so the scent of a rose elicits a good response instead of "Yes, that is a rose."
kentonblack 06-30-07, 09:05 PM	right! one of my favorite arguments/discussions 1.senses 2.monk warforged 3.running warforged 4.armored forged of odd classes them be mine favorites. just a few more posts and we might cover them all!
Ozymandias V. 06-30-07, 10:07 PM	So what happens when you have an armored beguiler warforged that is running for twelve hours while the player adds a level of monk, assuming he takes time to smell the roses and eat some apples while simultaneously petting a kitten?
DarkPawn 07-01-07, 12:28 AM	So what happens when you have an armored beguiler warforged that is running for twelve hours while the player adds a level of monk, assuming he takes time to smell the roses and eat some apples while simultaneously petting a kitten? ROFLMAO!! Good question!! :D
Lord_Zzyzx 07-02-07, 03:14 PM	And the verdict is . . . Warforged can run forever with the appropriate feats, suffering absolutely no ill-effects, but to allow so would produce an absurd effect so don't do it?
kentonblack 07-02-07, 06:02 PM	or rather, dont let the subject dominate your gaming. really, what good is the PC in your party, who by some chance became the run-god, when the party is sailing? or need to reach a flying castle? or on another plane of existance where the fly speed thingy comes in! dont let your PC choices dominate your DM style
Ozymandias V. 07-02-07, 08:37 PM	And the verdict is . . . Warforged can run forever with the appropriate feats, suffering absolutely no ill-effects, but to allow so would produce an absurd effect so don't do it? The absurdity of a machine being able to run without getting muscle cramps is debatable.
GrimAlchemist 07-02-07, 09:46 PM	Well, it is a little bit absurd to just sum a warforged up to a machine and leave it at that. At their basest, most constructs could indeed be considered machines, but the warforged have a distinct difference here, namely the living subtype. Living Constructs can take nonlethal damage for a reason. It's not merely wear and tear, there's SOMETHING in there in a warforged that suffers from extended use, or when a bare-fisted bar-brawler punches him, or he's hit by a Beguiler's whelm spell. Something an Iron Golem doesn't have. It's probably the same thing that let's him partially benefit from healing spells. In your game, if you want warforged to be closer to construct, and less living, you can go ahead and modify the living construct type to also include immunity to nonlethal damage. But if it were my game, I'd also make them unaffected by heal type spells and the effects of regeneration or fast healing, or risk making the warforged too overpowered. This would be a house rule, though, because the RAW in the PHB and ECS clearly state that a warforged, while not suffering the negative effects of exhaustion or fatigue, DO suffer nonlethal damage, which means that they could keep force marching or hustling, but eventually the strain from such activities will deteriorate their condition to the point where they fall disabled and eventually inert. (Unless they have Improved Resiliency)
madninjapimp 07-03-07, 01:10 PM	In one of the last campeigns I played this came up once, and decided that it didn't matter. I was a juggernaut at the time already and so was immune to nonleathal damage, but the rest of the party and their horses weren't. The only real time that this can be an issue is in an all warforged party, or in a NPC warforged group, and I would think that said npc warforged group would simply have some magic items for recovering the non-lethal damage, or take an 8 hour stop after 16 hours to repair, making them STILL better overland than anything other than mass transit (lightning rail or airship).
Edymnion 07-03-07, 01:42 PM	They're not supposed to be able to smell without a Tracker MaskAnd people say I'm exaggerating when I say that people actually believed RoE when it said that... :nonono:
Cifer 07-03-07, 02:41 PM	It's relatively clear that by RAW, Warforged can't run/hustle/forcemarch indefinitely. However, why shouldn't they be able to do so if they take the feats for it? Usually, you don't have a party full of warforged (that might be interesting...), so the WF is slowed down by his fleshy companions mumbling about resting. No problem there. Even if he should somehow manage to circumvent that, you've got a group that can cover about three times the distance they "should be". I can imagine some things that could break the game easier than that. Further, you now have got another plot point: A squad of the LoBster's finest is running towards their target and the PCs somehow have got to catch up, posibly by somehow scrounging enough money for a teleport from House Orien.
Ozymandias V. 07-04-07, 10:56 AM	And people say I'm exaggerating when I say that people actually believed RoE when it said that... :nonono: Sorry Edy. It WAS in an Eberron book, and that was all I remembered. I just didn't remember it was in RoE or I wouldn't have mentioned it. (Although Races of Eberron isn't really an Eberron book, it's a Races of X book, so...)
Ozymandias V. 07-08-07, 08:58 PM	In addition to the previous argument, what about the Boots of the Unending Journey? They render you immune to fatigue and exhaustion. Obviously the idea is that you can walk a loooong time. This is pretty useless if you still take subdual damage. Basically every time 'endless march' comes up, it involves immunity to fatigue and exhaustion. It's kind of silly that the only time anything says you still take the subdual damage is in the FAQ. Despite the fact that it MAKES. NO. SENSE. in or out of game.
Legate 07-24-07, 07:41 PM	Actually, there's several problems with the idea that any entity immune to the effects of fatigue and exhaustion would suffer from extended periods of running. First, there are several entries in the description of subdual damage that specifically refer to it as being a product of fatigue and exhaustion. -A condition of immunity should therefore include subdual damage. Second, it doesn't follow that one form of extended activity causes fatigue while others do not, therefore one would also have to include long-duration combat, construction projects, etc., just like extended walking/running. -This would effectively negate all of the benefit of the immunity feature. Third, the argument that joints would grate and/or overheat would have to be equally applicable to all golems and other constructs, or else be completely unfair, and upsetting to game balance. -This would mean having to account for the accumulated wear on long-term golem sentries. Fourth, Warforged still do not heal naturally, and since they do not sleep, it follows that resting would be equally inapplicable. -So, they would have to repair any subdual damage they incurred. Incidentally, they would probably also be subject to the fatigue effects of short-term sprinting, and be unable to recover from failing their Fortitude saves, again due to the lack of ability to recover naturally. All this being said, so what if a warforged can run for days without stopping? It's just not something that would significantly impact most adventures, and as has been previously stated, there is a built-in balance to any incurred advantage in that the character would be alone in any random wilderness encounters. But even moreso, the ability to run, and build, and fight ceaselessly fits with the idea of the warforged as greatly feared shock troops that are elite by their very nature, and need only a weapon to be an effective force on the battlefield. They don't eat, they don't sleep, and they do not stop, ever until the mission is done. If, on the other hand, a warforged was subject to the effects of long-term exertion, then each one would need to carry supplies with which to repair itself, would need to be trained to repair itself in addition to its martial education, could not fight for indefinate periods of time, could not siege effectively, and would be inferior in mobility to a mounted soldier. This would make their high cost prohibitive, since they would not represent a significant advantage over flesh and blood soldiers. And, if the effects of "overheated joints" were not applied to standard golems and constructs, then the transition to the Living Construct type would never have been developed, and a standard construct would be more valuable in its durability. IMHO, if anyone truly has a problem with the warforged, they should just not even use the the Eberron setting.
DarkPawn 07-24-07, 08:07 PM	Fourth, Warforged still do not heal naturally, and since they do not sleep, it follows that resting would be equally inapplicable. -So, they would have to repair any subdual damage they incurred. Incidentally, they would probably also be subject to the fatigue effects of short-term sprinting, and be unable to recover from failing their Fortitude saves, again due to the lack of ability to recover naturally. One point, they can't heal lethal damage naturally. They do heal non-lethal damage naturally, like any other living creature.
Edymnion 07-24-07, 09:01 PM	One point, they can't heal lethal damage naturally. They do heal non-lethal damage naturally, like any other living creature.They also heal ability damage naturally.
LoneStranger 07-25-07, 12:46 AM	This is an interesting argument, I do agree with the fact that's it is a moot point overall if a warforged can run forever. Rest of the party: "We're about to go to Xen'drik, you coming?" Warforged: "Nah, I'm going to do a couple laps around the planet, have fun though." However a basic Warforged character that is just created can't run forever, the character will take non-lethal damage. Either the feat Improved Resilency (sp?) or levels in Warforged Juggernaut will negate that though. I personally don't see the need for houserules, if anyone tries to abuse that just talk to the person doing it. Let 'em know what they're doing is stupid and go from there.
Alex_ 07-25-07, 12:52 AM	Warforged are magical. Like many other things in D&D, their traits and abilities will not be logical. They will not conform to modern real world models of engineering, chemistry, physics, or biology (amongst other things). Warforged, simply put, contain traits of both living things and constructs (as both exist in the D&D universe). They are neither 100% living creatures, or 100% construct, and where they take on the traits of one or the other has no basis in logic or reason. They only recieve half the normal amount of HP from healing spells, but get full healing from spells that effect constructs and Craft checks. Yet they take full damage from spells made to hurt living things and constructs. They are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, but not all the time. They have all five senses, but they are muted and not as well developed as many living things. They can't heal lethal damage, but can heal subdual damage. Being immune to fatigue (like a construct), but still suffering from subdual damage (like a living thing) is not some especially inexcusable, blatant, or fantasy destroying combination of traits. That is simply one more in a long line of both living and constructs traits they have. They are classified as "Living Constructs" afterall.
Concerto 07-25-07, 03:42 AM	or rather, dont let the subject dominate your gaming. really, what good is the PC in your party, who by some chance became the run-god, when the party is sailing? or need to reach a flying castle? or on another plane of existance where the fly speed thingy comes in! dont let your PC choices dominate your DM style He can be put into a giant hamster wheel and power the said boat?
Legate 07-25-07, 03:38 PM	Being immune to fatigue (like a construct), but still suffering from subdual damage (like a living thing) is not some especially inexcusable, blatant, or fantasy destroying combination of traits. That is simply one more in a long line of both living and constructs traits they have. They are classified as "Living Constructs" afterall. True, however, there is a fundamental logic flaw in the idea that although immune to the effects of exhaustion and fatigue, they are still somehow susceptible to subdual damage as incurred from extended periods of activity, which can logically only result from fatigue and exhaustion.
Shady314 07-25-07, 03:42 PM	Warforged are magical. Like many other things in D&D, their traits and abilities will not be logical. They will not conform to modern real world models of engineering, chemistry, physics, or biology (amongst other things). This is also called Rule Zero. It's not conducive to having a discussion. If we all just accepted that and let it supercede all of our thoughts on a subject, we would not really ever have anything to discuss. The answer to everything would just be. That's the way it is because that's what it is.... Where would the forums be then? Also while D&D may never try for realism it does (or at least most DMs) do try for verisimilitude. Eberron is not Kythri. There are rules and a certain logical continuity to things. Within the actual mechanics and the setting itself. Stuff doesn't just randomly, inexplicably occur with no explanation whatsoever all the time. We expect things to break when we hit them hard enough for example not morph into butterflies one time and dissolve like water the next etc. Being immune to fatigue (like a construct), but still suffering from subdual damage (like a living thing) is not some especially inexcusable, blatant, or fantasy destroying combination of traits. That is simply one more in a long line of both living and constructs traits they have. They are classified as "Living Constructs" afterall. I never said it was "inexcusable." I said it IMO stretched credibility too far and I changed it slightly for personal reasons. Most of my anger was actually directed to the forced marching rules in general. But let's not kid ourselves why the ruling is what it is. It's not an in setting reason it's a game balance reason and that's still perfectly valid. But SOME of us would like to think about how it can be justified/explained in setting/character OR change it. If for no other reason than to set our DM minds at ease or suit our personal tastes and playstyles. Also valid. If you'd like to help with that/discuss your thinking then fantastic. Otherwise just basically saying "Get over it" isn't really contributing anything worthwhile to the thread.
Alex_ 07-26-07, 12:03 AM	True, however, there is a fundamental logic flaw in the idea that although immune to the effects of exhaustion and fatigue, they are still somehow susceptible to subdual damage as incurred from extended periods of activity, which can logically only result from fatigue and exhaustion. That's not a flaw in logic as there was never any attempt at establishing a fundamental logic based on real world models. In D&D, fatigue and exhaustion and subdual damage are separate mechanics. Just like taking full value from harmful necromancy spells but half healing from spells and supernatural abilities that cure hit points. This is also called Rule Zero. It's not conducive to having a discussion. If we all just accepted that and let it supercede all of our thoughts on a subject, we would not really ever have anything to discuss. The answer to everything would just be. That's the way it is because that's what it is.... Where would the forums be then? I didn't say people couldn't discuss it. The thread was meant to ask for people's observations, suggestions, or clarification. Even if you didn't have discussions about DMs' houserulings and arbitrary decisions (I.E. Rule Zero) the forums would still exist as a place for people to recieve clarification regarding published materials and rules as written. In general, the majority of people asking questions on the forums are not asking for our DM fiat, but rather, a better understanding of the rules as written. Others are looking for specific material or references from books. Not that Rule Zero or houserules ideas aren't appreciated or useful, but they aren't the only thing people want, and someone mentioning how things actually work or pointing out what RAW say isn't some kind of declaration that the discussion is now officially over. But SOME of us would like to think about how it can be justified/explained in setting/character OR change it. If for no other reason than to set our DM minds at ease or suit our personal tastes and playstyles. Also valid. If you'd like to help with that/discuss your thinking then fantastic. Otherwise just basically saying "Get over it" isn't really contributing anything worthwhile to the thread. That's what my post was about. The explanation is that it's magical and unexplainable in real or even game-world terms, which is a valid explanation in D&D and not just an attempt to tell people to "get over it". I pointed out the other qualities Warforged have that are conflicting in a similar way, as their very classification as "Living Constructs" implies some conceptual contradiction. Going through a list of reasons why it couldn't or shouldn't work based on a real world model is even less helpful. This is also something I was warning against. In D&D, if you focus more on how stuff doesn't work than how it does work, and base your rules and decisions around that, then you're making things more complicated and in many instances, less balanced and in many instances, less fun. It's like losing sight of the forest because of all the trees.
Shady314 07-26-07, 07:00 AM	That's what my post was about. The explanation is that it's magical and unexplainable in real or even game-world terms, which is a valid explanation in D&D For a player yes. For a DM no. The DM has to decide what is and is not conducive to the feel and verisimilitude of their game world. Obviously some feel telling their players you don't get tired but you pass out breaks that immersion. You can backtrack all you like but your post did not bring up a single point of discussion. Just said "Things' are the way they are. There's no explanation for it, and that's perfectly valid so let it go." I disagree that having NO explanation whatsoever is "perfectly" valid. PS. Obviously the question about the forums was rhetorical and your (I would assume somewhat facetious) response of what the forum would be sounds pretty awful. Where would the fun be? As for your "list of contradictions" that are apparently 100% unexplainable... They only recieve half the normal amount of HP from healing spells, but get full healing from spells that effect constructs and Craft checks. They have more inorganic material than organic. And by organic I mean wood. Yet they take full damage from spells made to hurt living things and constructs. Destroying something is easier than fixing it. Always true in RL and in DnD. They are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, but not all the time. Their armor does not extend everywhere nor does it fully protect valuable internal systems. It can often get in the way of powerful blows but not always. They have all five senses, but they are muted and not as well developed as many living things. This is non-canonical ROE crap that is simply not true. They can't heal lethal damage, but can heal subdual damage. Lethal damage destroys parts of living beings. Subdual damage disrupts/damages parts without literally destroying them. Warforged internal biology can handle a disruption to a system. Thus they can also heal ability damage naturally. Literal destruction requires outside materials to replenish them. Are my answers 100% canonical/official? No, but they help me maintain a logical consistency to the Warforged in my game. DnD would be a lot less fun if I always had to think to myself "Ignore the man behind the curtain and don't ask questions!"
Alex_ 07-26-07, 08:02 AM	For a player yes. For a DM no. The DM has to decide what is and is not conducive to the feel and verisimilitude of their game world. Obviously some feel telling their players you don't get tired but you pass out breaks that immersion. Explaining something otherwise unworkable or counter-intuitive in reality as working via magic in the game world does not break the versimilitude of a D&D (if it wasn't already done before). You can backtrack all you like but your post did not bring up a single point of discussion. Just said "Things' are the way they are. There's no explanation for it, and that's perfectly valid so let it go." I disagree that having NO explanation whatsoever is "perfectly" valid. I said there is no real world logic or rationale applies. There can be some in game reasoning, but whatever it is, it will not stand up to real world models. The easiest explanation, and the one that makes the most sense in D&D is that "it's magic". This works just fine with Warforged since they are literally made through magic and have several other odd traits. Not even the folks of House Cannith are 100% sure about all the traits possessed by Warforged or how and why they work like they do. They were very surprised when the first ones started stepping out of the creation forges. PS. Obviously the question about the forums was rhetorical and your (I would assume somewhat facetious) response of what the forum would be sounds pretty awful. Where would the fun be? Just because you respond with a technically correct (or as accurate and consistent as possible) answer when someone asks a serious question doesn't mean there can't be fun. Even without sharing house rules or personal DM styles, there's still room for jokes, related discussions, and other entertaining exchanges. I assure you I didn't mean to be facetious. If I came across that way, I apologize. I'm just the kind of person who likes to cut straight to the heart of a matter, and tends to take a literal interpretation of things, especially on the internet where emotional context is much harder to read. They only recieve half the normal amount of HP from healing spells, but get full healing from spells that effect constructs and Craft checks. They have more inorganic material than organic. And by organic I mean wood. Understood. Yet they take full damage from spells made to hurt living things and constructs. Destroying something is easier than fixing it. Always true in RL and in DnD. And this is where the problem arises. If Warforged have less organic material in them than other living things, which means there's less living stuff to be healed, why are they just as vulnerable to necromancy as things that have significantly more organic makeup? Necromancy only effects organic/living things, and "logically" shouldn't affect Warforged for full value. They have more inorganic material than organic material, afterall. They are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, but not all the time. Their armor does not extend everywhere nor does it fully protect valuable internal systems. It can often get in the way of powerful blows but not always. Living things wear armor and they don't get a percentage chance to negate Criticals or Sneak attacks. Only a magical effect seems to bestow that bonus to armor. They have all five senses, but they are muted and not as well developed as many living things. This is non-canonical ROE crap that is simply not true. The Dragonshard article (also considered canon) that Kieth Baker personally wrote states, "warforged possess the same five senses that human beings do: sight, smell, hearing, touch, and even taste. They do not perceive the world in precisely the same way as humans do, and many of these senses are fairly dull in comparison to those of creatures of flesh and blood." It goes on to say... "The warforged sense of taste is one of the mysteries of the race. It has little value to a soldier and creature that has no need of food. In fact, this is not something that was designed by the artificers of House Cannith. Warforged are not automatons, and not every aspect of the warforged is the result of human planning: They are creatures of magic that defy natural law. A warforged is a creature of stone and wood, yet it can feel love and hate. Is it any stranger that it should be able to smell and taste?" Dragonshard articles are canon, as are all the published Eberron sourcebooks. I know that many people don't like Races of Eberron, but it's still canon, and even Kieth has said that it overrides his statements. I admit I houserule things from it myself, but I don't pretend these aren't houserules or are necessarily more logical or superior, just different, and more appealing to me personally. They can't heal lethal damage, but can heal subdual damage. Lethal damage destroys parts of living beings. Subdual damage disrupts/damages parts without literally destroying them. Warforged internal biology can handle a disruption to a system. Thus they can also heal ability damage naturally. Literal destruction requires outside materials to replenish them. That doesn't explain why they can't do something, but rather what they an do. There's still no explanation as to why a Warforged can't naturally heal lethal damage like other living things, but can heal subdual damage like living things. It doesn't even get slowed HP regeneration. Are my answers 100% canonical/official? No, but they help me maintain a logical consistency to the Warforged in my game. DnD would be a lot less fun if I always had to think to myself "Ignore the man behind the curtain and don't ask questions!" I have no problems with your answers working for you. However, if someone were to ask a question, and you told them what works for you before you attempted to give a more unbiased response, and only giving them your personal house ruling, you are not doing them a favor. People need the whole story. Most of them can make up their own housrules or make their own decisions if they want, and they can do this with much more confidence and less chance of messing something up, if they do it keeping in mind the orginal wording/meaning/ideas behind the published material. Also, I have pointed out that your answers are not entirely logically consistent and require some handwaving and ommision of details. You personally don't have to ignore the person behind the curtain because you are the person behind the curtain.
Shady314 07-26-07, 08:24 AM	They were very surprised when the first ones started stepping out of the creation forges. Some of the warforged's traits were surprising yes but this is obviously hyperbole. :) I assure you I didn't mean to be facetious. If I came across that way, I apologize. :D Relax facetious isn't bad. And this is where the problem arises. If Warforged have less organic material in them than other living things, which means there's less living stuff to be healed, why are they just as vulnerable to necromancy as things that have significantly more organic makeup? Necromancy only effects organic/living things, and "logically" shouldn't affect Warforged for full value. They have more inorganic material than organic material, afterall. I JUST said. It's easier to destory and hurt what organic matter there is than benefit them through repairing it. It's not a difficult concept. Living things wear armor and they don't get a percentage chance to negate Criticals or Sneak attacks. Only a magical effect seems to bestow that bonus to armor. Most living things aren't part armor. If a rogue gets a sneak attack on a human fighter in plate AND hits he's already overcome the armor. On a warforged he still has to work a blade (now past the plating) into a position to score extra damage by wounding a vital area. Now the internal armor comes into play and he has to roll to overcome that... again not a difficult concept. The Dragonshard article (also considered canon) that Kieth Baker personally wrote states, "warforged possess the same five senses that human beings do: sight, smell, hearing, touch, and even taste. They do not perceive the world in precisely the same way as humans do, and many of these senses are fairly dull in comparison to those of creatures of flesh and blood." 1) Seriously. Look up the definition of canon. Now look at RoE. Don't be fooled by the Eberron title. It is not technically an Eberron book and is not officially canon. 2) The Dragonshard IS canon this is true. But what is written in the Dragonshard is very different from what is in RoE. 3) I don't see the "conflict." They posess all five senses. They don't work exactly the way they do for every other race. Apparently being made up of wood and stone changes your tactile experience. Hardly shocking or confusing to understand... Dragonshard articles are canon, as are all the published Eberron sourcebooks. RoE is NOT an Eberron sourcebook. It's not a matter of prefence. Seriously it is a Races Of book not an Eberron book. That doesn't explain why they can't do something, but rather what they an do. There's still no explanation as to why a Warforged can't naturally heal lethal damage like other living things, but can heal subdual damage like living things. It doesn't even get slowed HP regeneration. Because constructs can't and they're part construct. They biologically lack the organisms and mechanisms of repair a fully organic creature does. Basically their body lacks cells. This is hardly stretching my brain here. I have no problems with your answers working for you. However, if someone were to ask a question, and you told them what works for you before you attempted to give a more unbiased response, and only giving them your personal house ruling, you are not doing them a favor. People need the whole story. Most of them can make up their own housrules or make their own decisions if they want, and they can do this with much more confidence and less chance of messing something up, if they do it keeping in mind the orginal wording/meaning/ideas behind the published material. I'd never present my answers as official canon. I didn't in the previous post did I? Also, I have pointed out that your answers are not entirely logically consistent and require some handwaving and ommision of details. Where? Please do tell. Your counter questions were hardly challenging. I would honestly love it if anyone could find a logical fallacy in any of my thinking. I would honestly enjoy the intellectual exercise of refining them. And what details have I forgotten? I felt certain I took all warforged traits into account.
Alex_ 07-26-07, 09:26 AM	I JUST said. It's easier to destory and hurt what organic matter there is than benefit them through repairing it. It's not a difficult concept. Why do more classes grant ways to deal death than heal it? I don't think you're seeing the logical incongruity here. Necromancy spells hurt the organic parts of the Warforged. Necromancy should not hurt Warforged as much because there is less organic material in Warforged to be hurt period. Not that they should b immune, but they should not be hurt as badly as something that is entirely organic. Things in general being easier to destroy is not the point, as necromancy does not effect constructs and inorganic things. It hurts organic things and organic things only, and there is less of that in a Warforged than most other living things. Most living things aren't part armor. If a rogue gets a sneak attack on a human fighter in plate AND hits he's already overcome the armor. On a warforged he still has to work a blade (now past the plating) into a position to score extra damage by wounding a vital area. Now the internal armor comes into play and he has to roll to overcome that... again not a difficult concept. Warforged armor is external. Beneath the layer of armor is just more wood. Not even a person in full plate gets even a bonus to negating sneak attacks, and they're generally much better protected than a a Warforged with composite plating. 1) Seriously. Look up the definition of canon. Now look at RoE. Don't be fooled by the Eberron title. It is not technically an Eberron book and is not officially canon... RoE is NOT an Eberron sourcebook. It's not a matter of prefence. Seriously it is a Races Of book not an Eberron book. Alright, it's not canon. 2) The Dragonshard IS canon this is true. But what is written in the Dragonshard is very different from what is in RoE. Somwhat. It was written specifically to expand upon Races of Eberron, not correct it. The biggest difference would be suggesting Warforged have a very limited sense of smell while RoE implied they had none. 3) I don't see the "conflict." They posess all five senses. They don't exactly the way they do for every other race. Apparently being made up wood and stone changes your tactile experience. Hardly shocking or confusing to understand... Wood and stone don't usually taste, smell, or feel, let alone see and hear either. They lack the mechanisms to do so. Because constructs can't and they're part construct. They biologically lack the organisms and mechanisms of repair a fully organic creature does. Basically their body lacks cells. This is hardly stretching my brain here. Only Warforged do have organic parts and have been shown to grow and change over time (like Warforged juggernauts). They do have the mechanisms to emulate what is essentially the process of cellular divison. I'd never present my answers as official canon. I didn't in the previous post did I? No, however, they were the only answers you provided. You then criticized my answers as being unhelpful when I was just providing a more "official" interpretation and pointed out that attempts to explain such things using real world models does not work.
Shady314 07-26-07, 10:55 AM	I don't think you're seeing the logical incongruity here. Because there is none. Necromancy spells hurt the organic parts of the Warforged. Do they? I think they hurt it's life force the most and organic materials second. Necromancy should not hurt Warforged as much because there is less organic material in Warforged to be hurt period. Not that they should b immune, but they should not be hurt as badly as something that is entirely organic. And the life force. That's obviously very important in necromancy too. Things in general being easier to destroy is not the point, as necromancy does not effect constructs and inorganic things. It hurts organic things and organic things only, and there is less of that in a Warforged than most other living things. Less of it but still just as critical. Think of it this way. HP are an abstraction. It's not literally how many times a sword can slice through your torso right? It's easier to take away that HP than grant it. A healing spell works to restore the organic material to a "healthy" state. And that nebulous life force, soul whatever. For a Warforged there's less organic material to heal and it doesn't really have a healthy state just a stable one. So let's say we have a warforged and a sword just sliced into his arm. What's damaged? Some inorganic material and some organic material. But really how "organic" is this organic material? And that inorganic material is going to be damaged in such a way it will impede any healing spells attempting to fix the organic material. Repair spells work because their inorganic and "organic material" falls fully into the realm of craft repair (woodworking) whereas the organic material has to work extra hard to reap any benefit from a healing spell because it only barely falls under organic and has to attempt to fix inorganic parts as well. Warforged armor is external. Beneath the layer of armor is just more wood. Sure about that? I certainly haven't read that anywhere. But did I ever say the armoring inside them was metal? No. Wood is VERY tough. But not invulnerable obviously. Hence their partial immunity. Not even a person in full plate gets even a bonus to negating sneak attacks, Uh yeah they do. It's called increased AC. and they're generally much better protected than a a Warforged with composite plating. Which is why they would have a higher AC. :P But once the blade gets past the armor. It's gotten past the armor. But warforged have a much tougher internal anatomy than us fleshies. It was written specifically to expand upon Races of Eberron, not correct it. It was to correct it. The smell specifically. Wood and stone don't usually taste, smell, or feel, let alone see and hear either. They lack the mechanisms to do so. You also can't usually shape it into a humanoid and get it to walk and talk etc. Apparently the magic that grants warforged sentience carries with it certain benefits/or drawbacks depending on how you look at it. One of these is the standard 5 sensory perceptions. Only Warforged do have organic parts and have been shown to grow and change over time (like Warforged juggernauts). They do have the mechanisms to emulate what is essentially the process of cellular divison. :P This just means they have some ability to replicate the magical spell fabricate. Not surprising considering it is the source of their creation. Stop thinking like a fleshy! :) In a world of magic there are other ways to grow things than the mechanisms organisms on Earth use. No, however, they were the only answers you provided. You then criticized my answers as being unhelpful when I was just providing a more "official" interpretation and pointed out that attempts to explain such things using real world models does not always work. You forgot an important word there. ;) DnD does a better job simulating the world than people give it credit for.
Alex_ 07-26-07, 02:49 PM	[quote] Do they? I think they hurt it's life force the most and organic materials second. And the life force. That's obviously very important in necromancy too. Less of it but still just as critical. Think of it this way. HP are an abstraction. It's not literally how many times a sword can slice through your torso right? It's easier to take away that HP than grant it. A healing spell works to restore the organic material to a "healthy" state. And that nebulous life force, soul whatever. For a Warforged there's less organic material to heal and it doesn't really have a healthy state just a stable one. So let's say we have a warforged and a sword just sliced into his arm. What's damaged? Some inorganic material and some organic material. But really how "organic" is this organic material? And that inorganic material is going to be damaged in such a way it will impede any healing spells attempting to fix the organic material. Repair spells work because their inorganic and "organic material" falls fully into the realm of craft repair (woodworking) whereas the organic material has to work extra hard to reap any benefit from a healing spell because it only barely falls under organic and has to attempt to fix inorganic parts as well. This still doesn't explain how something with a minority of organic parts is suffering just as much under the effects of Wither Limb as something 100% organic. A Warforged is just as vulnerable, if not moreso (Wisdom/Will penalty) as an equivalent Human to an Inflict Light Wounds spell, even though it has less actual stuff and fewer critical organic parts than a Human. Yeah HP is an abstraction, but it's still not applied evenly or taking into account the fact that Warforged have less organic parts than others. Sure about that? I certainly haven't read that anywhere. But did I ever say the armoring inside them was metal? No. Wood is VERY tough. But not invulnerable obviously. Hence their partial immunity. Yes. It's apparent in the picture of the Warforged, it's called composite plating . It's also described as "flexible plates conneccted by fiberous bundles". The armor is external. Warforge are like if someone glued pieces of armor to their body, leaving their neck, underarms, wrists/bottom of forearms, and lower legs larger uncovered. Uh yeah they do. It's called increased AC. That's not a percentage to negate a sneak attack or critical after the fact. You know exactly what I meant, especially considering Light Fortification is a magical armor enhancement. Which is why they would have a higher AC. :P But once the blade gets past the armor. It's gotten past the armor. But warforged have a much tougher internal anatomy than us fleshies. Lots of things have tougher internal anatomies than "fleshies". All of these, however, are either fully immune to critical and sneak attacks, or just as vulnerable. Nothing but a Warforged has built in, not even creatures made of wood or other plant materials. You also can't usually shape it into a humanoid and get it to walk and talk etc. Apparently the magic that grants warforged sentience carries with it certain benefits/or drawbacks depending on how you look at it. One of these is the standard 5 sensory perceptions. So you're running with "magic did it and that's it" explanation. It does work, and many times is the most workable answer. Although you do raise a point that being able to walk and talk is something very difficult to explain with Warforged without also simply explaining it away as magic. :P This just means they have some ability to replicate the magical spell fabricate. Not surprising considering it is the source of their creation. Stop thinking like a fleshy! :) In a world of magic there are other ways to grow things than the mechanisms organisms on Earth use. Fabricate doesn't let you grow things. it simply reforms what's already there. The structures grown by Warforged include additional mass, not simply remolded mass. You forgot an important word there. ;) DnD does a better job simulating the world than people give it credit for. At times it does. However, that doesn't mean that it's anywhere near an accurate simulation.
Legate 07-26-07, 03:40 PM	For what it's worth, IMHO, most of the Warforged's features do balance out, more or less. Yeah, there are certain necromantic effects that still apply, but a lot of the big ones don't, particularly level(energy(drain) which is a pretty big advantage considering they do possess a life force. Also, the possession of reduced-capacity senses. Being partially inorganic, that just follows. And the flavor text for possessing a sense of taste in particular, a result(perhaps) of random magic though not in the "blueprints", is acceptably explained by "it's magic". Yeah, Warforged get reduced benefit from healing spells, but that makes sense since a healing spell wouldn't fix their armored areas, while offensive spells, necromantic in particular, affect their life force as much as their actual bodies. Honestly, for all intents and purposes, you're both right, in general. A DM has all the right in the world to change rules as he sees fit, but IMO the DM also has the responsibility to ensure that the changes he makes are fair, both to the players that will be affected, and to an extent, to the world his game will take place in, and logical.
LoneStranger 07-26-07, 07:38 PM	Thank you Legate, that's the best take on this discussion I've seen yet. And actually if memory serves a standard warforged can suffer energy drain. I don't have the book nearby right now so I can't confirm that but I want to say that's one of the things you become immune to as a Warforged Juggernaut.
Shady314 07-26-07, 07:53 PM	[QUOTE=Shady314;13197894] This still doesn't explain how something with a minority of organic parts is suffering just as much under the effects of Wither Limb as something 100% organic. A Warforged is just as vulnerable, if not moreso (Wisdom/Will penalty) as an equivalent Human to an Inflict Light Wounds spell, even though it has less actual stuff and fewer critical organic parts than a Human. Fewer means it still has them and damage to them hurts just as much as it does to a human. As was pointed out many necromantic spells DONT hurt them. The ones that DO, hurt them the same way swords and other forms of magic do. When a Warforged is damaged he's got inorganic and slightly organic damage done to him. I see what you're trying to say. That necromantic effect has only affected his slightly organic side. Should a heal spell not then heal ALL the necromantic damage? I say no because that's when their life force comes into play. The magic struggles to repair what is not "really" organic matter. It's very easy for that magic to rip it apart though. Which ties into exactly what I said the first time. Destrucion is always easier than creation. Yeah HP is an abstraction, but it's still not applied evenly or taking into account the fact that Warforged have less organic parts than others. I take it into account. Yes. It's apparent in the picture of the Warforged, it's called composite plating . It's also described as "flexible plates conneccted by fiberous bundles". Oh it's apparent in the "artwork." LOL Anyways, fine. We'll say that the composite plating of a warforged is purely external. It doesn't change anything. The armor is external. Warforge are like if someone glued pieces of armor to their body, leaving their neck, underarms, wrists/bottom of forearms, and lower legs larger uncovered. That's obviously NOT what it is like since that's not how the mechanics treat it. That's not a percentage to negate a sneak attack or critical after the fact. You know exactly what I meant, especially considering Light Fortification is a magical armor enhancement. Yes it is a chance to negate a sneak attack. High AC is a chance to negate ANY physical attack. What's so hard to understand here? It's NOT the composite plating of a warforged that grants them the light fortification. it grants them AC. It's the tough, fibrous internal anatomy that makes sneak attacks harder. That's why the two are separate. The AC negates attacks that are directed at them just as it does for a human in plate. But when an attack succeeds you've gotten past the armor. When it's a human when you've gotten past all the protection. When it's a warforged they have one last line of defense BUT they still take the regular attack damage even if the sneak or critical part is negated. Lots of things have tougher internal anatomies than "fleshies". All of these, however, are either fully immune to critical and sneak attacks, or just as vulnerable. Nothing but a Warforged has built in, not even creatures made of wood or other plant materials. Because a warforged is a warforged... I don't get the point. I don't know any creatures with an anatomy like a Warforged. Like I said their internal anatomy is tough but not invulnerable. What other creatures, that are completely different from them, are like doesn't really matter. So you're running with "magic did it and that's it" explanation. It does work, and many times is the most workable answer. Although you do raise a point that being able to walk and talk is something very difficult to explain with Warforged without also simply explaining it away as magic. I'm saying that magical creation carries with it certain costs in addition to benefits. You may WANT a creature that can't feel pain but that may turn out to be an integral component of sentience and self-awareness. I'm not saying It's magic AND unexplainable. I'm trying to explain the magic. Fabricate doesn't let you grow things. it simply reforms what's already there. The structures grown by Warforged include additional mass, not simply remolded mass. Major Fabricate then. Or True creation. Whichever spell helps you to understand. Magic does not follow conservation of energy. Creation forges are eldritch machines and thus have artifact level power. At times it does. However, that doesn't mean that it's anywhere near an accurate simulation. It's accurate enough I can play in the world and not have to scratch my head all the time.
Legate 07-27-07, 10:22 AM	That's not a percentage to negate a sneak attack or critical after the fact. You know exactly what I meant, especially considering Light Fortification is a magical armor enhancement. Yes it is a chance to negate a sneak attack. High AC is a chance to negate ANY physical attack. What's so hard to understand here? It's NOT the composite plating of a warforged that grants them the light fortification. it grants them AC. It's the tough, fibrous internal anatomy that makes sneak attacks harder. That's why the two are separate. The AC negates attacks that are directed at them just as it does for a human in plate. But when an attack succeeds you've gotten past the armor. When it's a human when you've gotten past all the protection. When it's a warforged they have one last line of defense BUT they still take the regular attack damage even if the sneak or critical part is negated. Lots of things have tougher internal anatomies than "fleshies". All of these, however, are either fully immune to critical and sneak attacks, or just as vulnerable. Nothing but a Warforged has built in, not even creatures made of wood or other plant materials. Because a warforged is a warforged... I don't get the point. I don't know any creatures with an anatomy like a Warforged. Like I said their internal anatomy is tough but not invulnerable. What other creatures, that are completely different from them, are like doesn't really matter. Um, he's talking about the fortification ability, not the Warforged's AC. I think the point he's trying to make is that most creatures are either fully susceptible to sneak/critical attacks, or else are described as "not having discernable anatomies", with complete immunity. WF are unique in being resistant, but neither fully immune nor vulnerable to such attacks. As to the rest, it would be pointless to attempt to analyze and deconstruct the creation process of any major magical item or effect, it would only take away from the mystery and aura of both the specific article, as well as the game itself. It should suffice that the process produces the result. Again, it's when one makes alterations to existing and accepted material and ideas that one should be able to support those changes with a logical basis. Just don't too bogged down in the details.
Alex_ 07-27-07, 12:14 PM	[QUOTE=Alex_;13200438] Fewer means it still has them and damage to them hurts just as much as it does to a human. As was pointed out many necromantic spells DONT hurt them. True, many necromancy spells don't hurt, but it's an either or deal. Healing on the other hand is always half done. They're either immune to or more suceptible to some Necromancy spells, taking no reduced damage, yet are succeptible to any Healing spell, albiet at half value. It makse more sense that they would recieve only half damage/penalties from both Healing and Necromancy. The ones that DO, hurt them the same way swords and other forms of magic do. When a Warforged is damaged he's got inorganic and slightly organic damage done to him. Only necromancy magic doesn't work like sword damage. It's magic, not a physical blow, and it targets the living pieces or the life force, not the construct parts. Spells that specifically target fleshy bits like Inflict light Wounds, Symbol of Pain, or Gentle Repose shouldn't work as easily on them. I see what you're trying to say. That necromantic effect has only affected his slightly organic side. Should a heal spell not then heal ALL the necromantic damage? I say no because that's when their life force comes into play. The magic struggles to repair what is not "really" organic matter. It's very easy for that magic to rip it apart though. Which ties into exactly what I said the first time. Destrucion is always easier than creation. Oh it's apparent in the "artwork." LOL Anyways, fine. We'll say that the composite plating of a warforged is purely external. It doesn't change anything. I also quoted text in the book. You have response against that? Yes it is a chance to negate a sneak attack. High AC is a chance to negate ANY physical attack. What's so hard to understand here? It's NOT the composite plating of a warforged that grants them the light fortification. it grants them AC. It's the tough, fibrous internal anatomy that makes sneak attacks harder. That's why the two are separate. The AC negates attacks that are directed at them just as it does for a human in plate. But when an attack succeeds you've gotten past the armor. When it's a human when you've gotten past all the protection. When it's a warforged they have one last line of defense BUT they still take the regular attack damage even if the sneak or critical part is negated. Because a warforged is a warforged... I don't get the point. I don't know any creatures with an anatomy like a Warforged. Like I said their internal anatomy is tough but not invulnerable. What other creatures, that are completely different from them, are like doesn't really matter. All Plant creatures have a body comparable to Warforged inthat they're made of fribrous bundles of plant-like material. Warforged are like them, only wearing armor. I'm saying that magical creation carries with it certain costs in addition to benefits. You may WANT a creature that can't feel pain but that may turn out to be an integral component of sentience and self-awareness. I'm not saying It's magic AND unexplainable. I'm trying to explain the magic. Only constructs like Inevtiables, and Undead like Liches and Vampires don't feel pain, but are sentient (sapient) and self aware. Major Fabricate then. Or True creation. Whichever spell helps you to understand. Magic does not follow conservation of energy. Creation forges are eldritch machines and thus have artifact level power. Then why can't a Warforged heal themselves naturally? They have the mechanism to create material to repair any damaged/destroyed pieces. And again, we have "it's magic" as the general explenation of a Warforged's components. It's accurate enough I can play in the world and not have to scratch my head all the time. And the way it started out was accurate enough. You didn't make it more accurate, you just changed details on personal whims. While I can understand that this works better for you, it's not necessarily more accurate.
Shady314 07-27-07, 06:09 PM	True, many necromancy spells don't hurt, but it's an either or deal. Healing on the other hand is always half done. They're either immune to or more suceptible to some Necromancy spells, taking no reduced damage, yet are succeptible to any Healing spell, albiet at half value. It makse more sense that they would recieve only half damage/penalties from both Healing and Necromancy. No it doesn't and I explained why. Only necromancy magic doesn't work like sword damage. Actually they do work LIKE each other. It's magic, not a physical blow, Yes they are different but both do damage to the anatomy of a creature. Magic is even better since it can bypass your armor. But who cares if it is a sword that slices off your arm or a necromancy spell makes it fall off? Both hurt and take away HP. Ultimately you turn to healing magic or a heal check to get it back on there. Warforged use a craft check because they're bodies involve inorganic matter. and it targets the living pieces or the life force, not the construct parts. Spells that specifically target fleshy bits like Inflict light Wounds, Symbol of Pain, or Gentle Repose shouldn't work as easily on them. I say they should because in my world Destruction is easier than Creation and I carry this over to everything. Especially magic. You left this in your post but didn't respond to it. I see what you're trying to say. That necromantic effect has only affected his slightly organic side. Should a heal spell not then heal ALL the necromantic damage? I say no because that's when they're life force comes into play. The magic struggles to repair what is not "really" organic matter. It's very easy for that magic to rip it apart though. Which ties into exactly what I said the first time. Destrucion is always easier than creation. I also quoted text in the book. You have response against that? I DID say let's assume warforged have no metal whatsoever in their body didn't I? All Plant creatures have a body comparable to Warforged inthat they're made of fribrous bundles of plant-like material. Warforged are like them, only wearing armor. Really all of them? A Treant does? I guess this is a preference thing but I never imagined most plants being made of fibrous bundles of plant like roots. How many plants have armor as an intrinsic part of their body as well? Saying they're jus "wearing" composite plating is ridiculous. It's a part of their body. It can't be removed. Theoretically, doing so would kill them. Like flaying the skin from a human. They are not "just wearing" armor. Only constructs like Inevtiables, and Undead like Liches and Vampires don't feel pain, but are sentient (sapient) and self aware. But not alive. And Vampires don't feel pain? Really? And really those are your examples? I said magical creation often carries with drawbacks to the benefits and you bring up liches and vamps? That's exactly my point. Why didn't these people just find some OTHER way of becoming immortal? Then why can't a Warforged heal themselves naturally? What's this word naturally? You should say why don't warforged heal like the other races. They do heal naturally. For a construct. They CAN repair themselves. That's natural. We repair ourselves too. It's just that the Warforged have to do it consciously and we do it automatically. What's the point? Warforged aren't human so they don't heal like humans. What's confusing? They have the mechanism to create material to repair any damaged/destroyed pieces. And again, we have "it's magic" as the general explenation of a Warforged's components. They have A mechanism to create material. Feats and Class levels. How does this mean they should be able to spontaneously regenerate material to repair themselves on a whim? Have you heard of spontaneous or induced mutation in organic creatures? That the Warforged apparently have some control over it, (but do they really? Only players are actually looking through the book consciously picking new feats and classes. Most NPCs could end up being quite surprised when silver pops up in their body after fighting werewolves) than organic races is not particularly crazy. It's just one of the ways in which we are different from them. Again what's your point? That Warforged aren't like us? I agree. That doesn't mean everything about them is unexplainable. And the way it started out was accurate enough. You didn't make it more accurate, you just changed details on personal whims. I believe my whims made it more accurate. You can disagree and that's ok. While I can understand that this works better for you, it's not necessarily more accurate. I feel it is.
Alex_ 07-27-07, 07:04 PM	No it doesn't and I explained why. But your explanation was contrary. Actually they do work LIKE each other. Yes they are different but both do damage to the anatomy of a creature. Magic is even better since it can bypass your armor. But who cares if it is a sword that slices off your arm or a necromancy spell makes it fall off? Both hurt and take away HP. Ultimately you turn to healing magic or a heal check to get it back on there. Warforged use a craft check because they're bodies involve inorganic matter. They are different. Necromancy is useless against constructs, while swords are not. A creature's resistance or immuntiy to Necromancy means nothing in regards to how well they can take a hit from a sword. I DID say let's assume warforged have no metal whatsoever in their body didn't I? I never suggested they didn't have any metal. The parts of the book I quoted suggested they were mostly wood and other materials, and that the armor was external. Really all of them? A Treant does? Considering Warforged are made of livewood, and a Treat is a living thing made of wood, yeah, I would assume the vulnerability of a Warforged's body once you get past the outer metal shell to the innards to be comparable to that of a Treant. I guess this is a preference thing but I never imagined most plants being made of fibrous bundles of plant like roots. Most plant creatures are. Grappler Vines, Shambling Mounds, and most other Plant creatures are very much composed of fiberous plant material and root/vine structures. How many plants have armor as an intrinsic part of their body as well? Saying they're jus "wearing" composite plating is ridiculous. It's a part of their body. It can't be removed. Theoretically, doing so would kill them. Like flaying the skin from a human. They are not "just wearing" armor. Upgrading to Adamantine or Mithril armor does not increase a Warforged's percentage roll to negate criticals and sneak attacks. The idea that a Warforged's armor has anything to do with them being able to negate sneak attacks or criticals is a false one that has no logical basis in how any of the rules work. But not alive. And Vampires don't feel pain? Really? And really those are your examples? The fact that they're immune to the spell Symbol of Pain. Also, the fact that they're immune to just about anything that can be considered pain in D&D game terms. They take damage, and may even lose limbs, but nothing stops them short of being utterly destroyed (or turned/rebuked). I said magical creation often carries with drawbacks to the benefits and you bring up liches and vamps? No, you brought up feeling pain as a consequence of sentience (sapience) not necessarily of magic. What's this word naturally? In D&D, "natural healing" is when a PC recovers HP equal to their character level after an 8 hour period of rest. "Naturally" healing is another way of saying that. You should say why don't warforged heal like the other races. They do heal naturally. For a construct. They CAN repair themselves. That's natural. We repair ourselves too. It's just that the Warforged have to do it consciously and we do it automatically. Warforged cannot heal naturally. It says so in the ECS. If we go by your defintion that suggests using Craf, then according to the ECS, which says What's the point? Warforged aren't human so they don't heal like humans. What's confusing? The point is that Warforged being unable to naturally heal lethal damage, but able to heal subdual damage is like their immunty to fatigue, but vulnerability to subdual damage. Some people think that doesn't make sense, but Warforged aren't humans, and so they don't handle fatigue and subdual damage the same as humans, so what's the point? They have A mechanism to create material. Feats and Class levels. How does this mean they should be able to spontaneously regenerate material to repair themselves on a whim? I ask, "why not?". If a warforged can generate new material for their bodies, instead of growing body parts, why not use it to summon material to heal themselves? Have you heard of spontaneous or induced mutation in organic creatures? Yes. However, mutation merely refers to a change in genetic material, and does not mean that new cells are being created, or that new noticeable structures are going to appear. That the Warforged apparently have some control over it, (but do they really? Only players are actually looking through the book consciously picking new feats and classes. Most NPCs could end up being quite surprised when silver pops up in their body after fighting werewolves) than organic races is not particularly crazy. It's just one of the ways in which we are different from them. Whether or not Warforged have control or no control over it, they have the potential. The question is why don't they use it? Again what's your point? That Warforged aren't like us? I agree. That doesn't mean everything about them is unexplainable. My point is that I'm illustrating how it's best to hold a general suspension of disbleief. It's a fantasy and pretty much everything that happens in it is arbitrary, and although it may be inspired by it, none of it is bound by real world models of physics, chemistry, biology, etc. I gave examples in the game. You then claimed my examples to be false, and attempted to give some reasoning for them that was something non-arbitrary or based on some kind of long running logic in the game. I have been pointing out how your explanations are themselves arbitrary and lacking in logic or agreement with modern real world models. I have no desire to change your mind. However, I know there are many who think as you do, and it's my hope that a few of those people reading this post will realize how fruitless arguing over the logistics and realism of a fantasy game is so they can avoid it themselves and get to the fun that is gaming. I believe my whims made it more accurate. You can disagree and that's ok. They are not, for the reasons listed above. You can feel that anything regarding anything in any book is wrong or less accurate, and that's okay, but that doesn't make it so.
Shady314 07-28-07, 12:57 AM	But your explanation was contrary. My explanation that it is easier to Destroy than Create was contradictory? How? They are different. Necromancy is useless against constructs, while swords are not. A creature's resistance or immuntiy to Necromancy means nothing in regards to how well they can take a hit from a sword. I don't get what your point is. I never suggested they didn't have any metal. You suggested their composite plating was purely external and inside we're soley composed of a bundles of fibrous roots. That suggests no metal within. Make up your mind. The parts of the book I quoted suggested they were mostly wood and other materials, and that the armor was external. PART you quoted. I agree the composite plating is external. Considering Warforged are made of livewood, AND a whole lot of other materials. and a Treat is a living thing made of wood, UNlike a warforged. yeah, I would assume the vulnerability of a Warforged's body once you get past the outer metal shell to the innards to be comparable to that of a Treant. :rofl: You think a treant is made up of bundles of fibrous tissues? It's a tree trunk. Most plant creatures are. Grappler Vines, Shambling Mounds, and most other Plant creatures are very much composed of fiberous plant material and root/vine structures. You should list which are immune to sneak attacks and criticals and which are not if you're trying to prove a point. Upgrading to Adamantine or Mithril armor does not increase a Warforged's percentage roll to negate criticals and sneak attacks. The idea that a Warforged's armor has anything to do with them being able to negate sneak attacks or criticals is a false one that has no logical basis in how any of the rules work. And yet by YOUR own argument a treant with no armor has the same anatomy as a warforged and should thus function similarly. If we follow that line of logic we can only assume the difference MUST be the armor (as that is thus they're only difference) and that it plays some role. Either that or you're wrong. The fact that they're immune to the spell Symbol of Pain. :rolleyes: That's how your defining pain? Also, the fact that they're immune to just about anything that can be considered pain in D&D game terms. ??? :confused: What are you talking about? They take damage, and may even lose limbs, but nothing stops them short of being utterly destroyed (or turned/rebuked). A stake through the heart is "utter destruction?" Just because they're tough we should assume they feel no pain? I find this thinking fallacious. No, you brought up feeling pain as a consequence of sentience (sapience) not necessarily of magic. I brought it up as a theory. That magic is not a free lunch and when using it you often have to pay costs as well as benefits. Therefore when creating metal soldiers to fight for you, to give them sentience equal to your own requires a toll and that toll is that they have the same 5 senses and emotions. In D&D, "natural healing" is when a PC recovers HP equal to their character level after an 8 hour period of rest. "Naturally" healing is another way of saying that. Then say Natural healing. Healing naturally doesn't mean anything. And you still have no point with this. While you rest that warforged can be making a repair check to also heal himself naturally. (Naturally in the sense it isn't a supernatural ability) Warforged cannot heal naturally. It says so in the ECS. Warforged do not have Natural Healing. Which doesn't have anything to do with anything. The point is that Warforged being unable to naturally heal lethal damage, but able to heal subdual damage is like their immunty to fatigue, but vulnerability to subdual damage. How is that like each other? Subdual damage doesn't JUST come from fatigue you know. I've only said they should be immune to subdual damage FROM fatigue. Not a blow to the back of the head. Some people think that doesn't make sense, but Warforged aren't humans, and so they don't handle fatigue and subdual damage the same as humans, so what's the point? That people then turn around and say BUT they suffer subdual damage from fatigue like humans. Which is rather contrary. I ask, "why not?". If a warforged can generate new material for their bodies, instead of growing body parts, why not use it to summon material to heal themselves? Because it's not conscious? One could ask why if humans can heal cuts they don't grow whole new arms when they lose a limb. The two don't logically follow the other. Yes. However, mutation merely refers to a change in genetic material, and does not alwaysmean that new cells are being created, or that new noticeable structures are going to appear. You forget an important word. It does SOMETIMES and in the case of warforged it clearly does more often. Whether or not Warforged have control or no control over it, they have the potential. The question is why don't they use it? You just said it. :rolleyes: Hey every human has the potential to be a level 20 wizard. I wonder why they don't use it. My point is that I'm illustrating how it's best to hold a general suspension of disbleief. Oh thank you! I wasn;t sure how to do it before. It's a fantasy and pretty much everything that happens in it is arbitrary, Maybe you think so. and although it may be inspired by it, none of it is bound by real world models of physics, chemistry, biology, etc. NONE of it is bound by real world physics? That's a rather bold statement. I gave examples in the game.[. No you didn't. You then claimed my examples to be false, and attempted to give some reasoning for them that was something non-arbitrary or based on some kind of long running logic in the game. I have been pointing out how your explanations are themselves arbitrary and lacking in logic or agreement with modern real world models. You have not done that. At best you've tried to say they were lacking in DnD models. You haven't brought up an ounce of real world physics, chemistry, biology etc. I have no desire to change your mind. However, I know there are many who think as you do, and it's my hope that a few of those people reading this post will realize how fruitless arguing over the logistics and realism of a fantasy game is so they can avoid it themselves and get to the fun that is gaming. Thanks for helping all of us that just don't understand the proper way to play DnD and have fun. I sure do appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else does too. :rolleyes: They are not, for the reasons listed above. You can feel that anything regarding anything in any book is wrong or less accurate, and that's okay, but that doesn't make it so. Actually Rule Zero says it does and you're the one that first brought it up.
Alex_ 07-28-07, 03:07 AM	But your explanation was contrary. My explanation that it is easier to Destroy than Create was contradictory? How? Positive and Negative energy, Healing and Necromancy, however, are uniform in how they relate to living things or non-constructs (work as normal or not at all). Only Warforged deviate from this evenness. They are different. Necromancy is useless against constructs, while swords are not. A creature's resistance or immuntiy to Necromancy means nothing in regards to how well they can take a hit from a sword. I don't get what your point is. My point is that Necromancy and Swords are not the same in how they react to things like constructs. I never suggested they didn't have any metal. You suggested their composite plating was purely external and inside we're soley composed of a bundles of fibrous roots. That suggests no metal within. Make up your mind. They have metal on the outside, but no metal on the inside. They are composed of livewood bundles with an a metal/stone shell. Considering Warforged are made of livewood, AND a whole lot of other materials. Just livewood, stone, and whatever metal is being used for the armor. Not that many different materials. and a Treat is a living thing made of wood, UNlike a warforged. Everything other than the outer layer of metal/rock on a Warforged is wood, Livewood to be exact. yeah, I would assume the vulnerability of a Warforged's body once you get past the outer metal shell to the innards to be comparable to that of a Treant. You think a treant is made up of bundles of fibrous tissues? It's a tree trunk. And a tree trunk IS a bunch of fiberous tissue. Warforged are made out livewood, which is also a tree. Warforged are made of tree trunks. Not that it matters since no plant creature, even those not made of tree trunks, is succeptible to criticals or sneak attacks. Most plant creatures are. Grappler Vines, Shambling Mounds, and most other Plant creatures are very much composed of fiberous plant material and root/vine structures. You should list which are immune to sneak attacks and criticals and which are not if you're trying to prove a point. All are immune to sneak attacks. In fact, pretty every creature lacking flesh is immune to sneak attacks and critical hits. That is, except Warforged. Upgrading to Adamantine or Mithril armor does not increase a Warforged's percentage roll to negate criticals and sneak attacks. The idea that a Warforged's armor has anything to do with them being able to negate sneak attacks or criticals is a false one that has no logical basis in how any of the rules work. And yet by YOUR own argument a treant with no armor has the same anatomy as a warforged and should thus function similarly. If we follow that line of logic we can only assume the difference MUST be the armor (as that is thus they're only difference) and that it plays some role. Either that or you're wrong. No, I say the difference is the magic involved making it so, not anything having to do with the structure. The fact that they're immune to the spell Symbol of Pain. That's how your defining pain? No, that's how D&D defines it. "each creature within the radius of a symbol of pain instead suffers wracking pains" is part of the descriptor of the spell. Also, the fact that they're immune to just about anything that can be considered pain in D&D game terms. ??? What are you talking about? I'm talking about anything that is described in the PHB as causing pain, like the spell Symbol of Pain. They take damage, and may even lose limbs, but nothing stops them short of being utterly destroyed (or turned/rebuked). A stake through the heart is "utter destruction?" Just because they're tough we should assume they feel no pain? I find this thinking fallacious. Utter destruction need not be painful. It isn't always in reality, and certainly isn't always so i fantasy. The conclusion that they feel no pain is based on lack of evidence suggesting they do, and evidence supporting that they don't. No, you brought up feeling pain as a consequence of sentience (sapience) not necessarily of magic. I brought it up as a theory. That magic is not a free lunch and when using it you often have to pay costs as well as benefits. Therefore when creating metal soldiers to fight for you, to give them sentience equal to your own requires a toll and that toll is that they have the same 5 senses and emotions. This theory doesn't seem to agree with the fact that magically created intelligent Undead and Constructs don't seem to have the same traits, even though they're capable of human-level sentience. That is unless you go back and change those rules. In D&D, "natural healing" is when a PC recovers HP equal to their character level after an 8 hour period of rest. "Naturally" healing is another way of saying that. Then say Natural healing. Healing naturally doesn't mean anything. And you still have no point with this. While you rest that warforged can be making a repair check to also heal himself naturally. (Naturally in the sense it isn't a supernatural ability) Warforged cannot heal naturally. It says so in the ECS. Warforged do not have Natural Healing. Which doesn't have anything to do with anything. The ECS itself says, "A warforged cannot heal damage naturally". My choice of wording was fine and clearly understandable, as you didn't require clarification of the wording in the ECS when it said pretty much the same thing. As for what this has to do with anything, they can heal lethal damage naturally, but subdual. They are the only creatures in D&D to do this; there is no established basis or logic for it. The point is that Warforged being unable to naturally heal lethal damage, but able to heal subdual damage is like their immunty to fatigue, but vulnerability to subdual damage. How is that like each other? Subdual damage doesn't JUST come from fatigue you know. I've only said they should be immune to subdual damage FROM fatigue. Not a blow to the back of the head. And apparently for Warforged, subdual damage from a forced march is not the same as fatigue. Some people think that doesn't make sense, but Warforged aren't humans, and so they don't handle fatigue and subdual damage the same as humans, so what's the point? That people then turn around and say BUT they suffer subdual damage from fatigue like humans. Which is rather contrary. And they (i.e. me) admit it's contrary and point out that many things in D&D are contrary. I ask, "why not?". If a warforged can generate new material for their bodies, instead of growing body parts, why not use it to summon material to heal themselves? Because it's not conscious? Neither is "natural healing". One could ask why if humans can heal cuts they don't grow whole new arms when they lose a limb. The two don't logically follow the other. You've got that backwards. Warfarged can't do the equivelant of a Human healing cuts. They can, however, do the equivelant of a Human growing entirely new limbs and body parts. The question should actually be phrased as: If Humans were capable growing entirely new limbs and body parts, why would they be unable to heal cuts? Hopefully now people see what I'm getting at here. Yes. However, mutation merely refers to a change in genetic material, and does not alwaysmean that new cells are being created, or that new noticeable structures are going to appear. You forget an important word. It does SOMETIMES and in the case of warforged it clearly does more often. Only Warforged don't operate under the model of cellular reproduction. You already described the growth of Warforged structures as reliant on magic. Whether or not Warforged have control or no control over it, they have the potential. The question is why don't they use it? You just said it. Hey every human has the potential to be a level 20 wizard. I wonder why they don't use it. No, not every person has the potential to become a 20th level wizard, or even a Wizard to begin with. PC classes represent innately exceptional individuals, not simply ones that have studied or practiced long enough. Very few people have the potential to gain levels in any PC class. My point is that I'm illustrating how it's best to hold a general suspension of disbleief. Oh thank you! I wasn't sure how to do it before... Thanks for helping all of us that just don't understand the proper way to play DnD and have fun. I sure do appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else does too. That's what the forums are for: giving advice and information with the intent of enriching the gaming experiences of others. I can't make all the people happy all the time though. It's my hope that someone actually does find this advice useful. It's a fantasy and pretty much everything that happens in it is arbitrary, Maybe you think so. There's no "maybe" or "think" about it. I know so. You honestly believe that there's material in the books that the creators, writers, play testers, editors, publishers, and other people involved were unwillingly forced to put in there? That their personal preferences, goals, and tastes have no bearing on deciding things like what traits creatures have, the effects of spells, DCs, and fluff? and although it may be inspired by it, none of it is bound by real world models of physics, chemistry, biology, etc. NONE of it is bound by real world physics? That's a rather bold statement. No. None of it is bound by it. At any time WOTC can publish a rule or statement about the D&D world that blatantly contradicts real world models and there wouldn't be a darn thing we could do. Magic's blatant contempt for Newtonian Physics and Conservation of Mass/Energy, and the nature of half-Human and demihuman subraces in relation to modern genetic models being prime examples. I gave examples in the game. No you didn't. I have, I did so in my response just above. I continue pointing them out in regards to Warforged and their wonky relationship with healing/necromancy, critical hits, and sneak attacks which differ from all rules for constructs and non-constructs. You then claimed my examples to be false, and attempted to give some reasoning for them that was something non-arbitrary or based on some kind of long running logic in the game. I have been pointing out how your explanations are themselves arbitrary and lacking in logic or agreement with modern real world models. You have not done that. At best you've tried to say they were lacking in DnD models. You haven't brought up an ounce of real world physics, chemistry, biology etc. Except for when I mentioned cellular division. They are not, for the reasons listed above. You can feel that anything regarding anything in any book is wrong or less accurate, and that's okay, but that doesn't make it so. Actually Rule Zero says it does and you're the one that first brought it up. Rule Zero says you can change rules in your games, and expects you to, but does not say that your rules are better, more consistent, more acurate, or more logical than theirs.
ArcTan 07-28-07, 04:17 AM	I came in to this debate too late to want to read all the crap posted here, but I'll just say this: To me, the logic is simple. Immune to fatigue and exhaustion is good, but not overpowering. Immune to nonlethal damage on top of that *is* overpowering. WF immune to nonlethal pushes them to brink of LA +1, as do a lot of other unofficial flavor things people want to give the Warforged. Rather than saying that you can never cause pain to a Warforged or knock on unconscious, we just say they're, by default, vulnerable to nonlethal. If that means that some less-logical applications of nonlethal also work on Warforged, then so be it. It keeps the rules simple.
Legate 07-30-07, 07:24 PM	I agree with ArcTan. I have a much easier time accepting that a WF could run endlessly than that he could wade into the middle of a barfight and walk out without so much as a scratch. Even the immunity to level drain is much more of a game breaker than whether or not they can run around as they please, yet the fatigue immunity seems to have really grabbed everyone's attention. At least a lot of the more potent feat-based abilities come with balances, like the immunity to criticals coming at the price of the ability to accept the benefits of the healing school of spells. And on a final note, Shady, Alex, it's time to stop the spitting contest already(you know what I mean). You're arguing over minor semantics, the applicability of rule sources, and what ultimately boils down to personal style of play and DMing. Knock it off already. If you can't see eye to eye, fine just agree to disagree.
Alex_ 07-30-07, 07:59 PM	Knock it off already. If you can't see eye to eye, fine just agree to disagree. It's been over for about a week.
Shady314 07-31-07, 04:24 AM	And on a final note, Shady, Alex, it's time to stop the spitting contest already(you know what I mean). Mom is that you? You're arguing over minor semantics, the applicability of rule sources, and what ultimately boils down to personal style of play and DMing. Well THATS never happened on a forum before. Knock it off already. If you can't see eye to eye, fine just agree to disagree. I keep checking but it doesn't say Wiz-O next to your name. Maybe I'm missing it. You do realize coming in 4 or so days after a thread dies (why do you think i didn't respond? to let it die) and telling everyone to knock it off is usually the best way to start an argument back up right? Anyways neither Alex nor I never resorted to any personal attacks or broke any other forum rules and despite our rather heated "spitting contest" (ew) have no hard feelings towards one another. (I think) So "knock it off already" with the bossy attitude.
Alex_ 07-31-07, 12:04 PM	Alex nor I never resorted to any personal attacks or broke any other forum rules and despite our rather heated "spitting contest" (ew) have no hard feelings towards one another. (I think) Right on the nose.
Legate 08-03-07, 03:20 PM	I wish there was a way to place my statement in a different emotional context, since I didn't mean it to come off as serious in any way. Sorry if I sounded like I was trying to throw my weight around.