Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deathsedge 07-25-07, 05:13 PM	I don know if this has been covered or not? How come Warforged don't get a bonus to strength? Is it because they are considered "living constructs"? You'd think they would since they are made out wood, stone and certain metals. :evillaugh Deathsedge
DarkPawn 07-25-07, 05:21 PM	I don know if this has been covered or not? How come Warforged don't get a bonus to strength? Is it because they are considered "living constructs"? You'd think they would since they are made out wood, stone and certain metals. :evillaugh Deathsedge Because they don't have muscles. ;) But seriously, who knows... There could be numerous reasons why they aren't physically stronger then other living creatures. My guess is to keep them a +0 LA, is the main reason.
Shady314 07-25-07, 05:32 PM	How come Warforged don't get a bonus to strength? Is it because they are considered "living constructs"? You'd think they would since they are made out wood, stone and certain metals. What in the world makes you think wood, stone and metal should grant a STR bonus? It'd make you tougher. Which is what warforged get. A con and armor bonus AND partial immunity to sneak attacks and critical hits. That seems logical to me for a creature made of dense materials. What logical train are you on that's leading you to the conclusion they should get a strength bonus?
DarkPawn 07-25-07, 05:47 PM	What in the world makes you think wood, stone and metal should grant a STR bonus? It'd make you tougher. Which is what warforged get. A con and armor bonus AND partial immunity to sneak attacks and critical hits. That seems logical to me for a creature made of dense materials. What logical train are you on that's leading you to the conclusion they should get a strength bonus? Well in his defense, um....golems. The original constructs...they tend to be strong you know?
Kinger 07-25-07, 06:48 PM	Well in his defense, um....golems. The original constructs...they tend to be strong you know? They're typically much bigger than a normal person, though, and size increases tend to come with strength increases.
LoneStranger 07-25-07, 07:11 PM	Yeah I gotta agree that the materials in a warforged tend towards con bonus and the fortification (although if memory serves that's just from the plating). Ah well there are plenty of standard magic items that give STR bonuses, and I'm sure you can come up with a warforged component or two that can give a boost as well.
Shady314 07-26-07, 06:54 AM	Well in his defense, um....golems. The original constructs...they tend to be strong you know? Uh yeah but not because of what they're made of... Logical train of thought derailed! :P
DarkPawn 07-26-07, 12:42 PM	They're typically much bigger than a normal person, though, and size increases tend to come with strength increases. I'm well aware of that, but he asked in a fairly rude manner, what type of "logic train" the O.P. had. I'm merely stating an obvious reason someone might assume all constructs have a higher then average strength. :eek:
DarkPawn 07-26-07, 12:46 PM	Uh yeah but not because of what they're made of... Logical train of thought derailed! :P Be polite, the guy has a legitimate question as to why many constructs are much stronger then average, so why aren't warforged. You answered in your opinion, no need to belittle people or make snide comments about "logic trains", implying someone is lacking common sense or "logic". EDIT: Honestly looking at a hulking adamantine body, warforged juggernaut, is it really odd to wonder why they don't have a strength modifier? I agree warforged don't need a strength modifier, I'm not arguing about that. But is it really that odd to wonder why they don't have a strength modifier? Sheesh, sometimes you people are a brutal crowd.
Teron Gorefiend 07-26-07, 02:52 PM	EDIT: Honestly looking at a hulking adamantine body, warforged juggernaut, is it really odd to wonder why they don't have a strength modifier? I agree warforged don't need a strength modifier, I'm not arguing about that. But is it really that odd to wonder why they don't have a strength modifier? Sheesh, sometimes you people are a brutal crowd. Looking at a hulking, muscular human barbarian, do you think humans should have a strength bonus? Of course not; that's just what a character of that race looks like when, in metagame terms, his highest score is assigned to strength. Maybe House Cannith could have built a better warforged (and they did, if you count the warforged titan), but their primary goal was to mass-produce a warforged fighter with the best production cost to selling price ratio possible, and it happens that the result is only as strong as a human fighter, on average (though warforged fighters are vastly more numerous than human fighters in proportion to their respective populations).
DarkPawn 07-26-07, 03:00 PM	Looking at a hulking, muscular human barbarian, do you think humans should have a strength bonus? Of course not; that's just what a character of that race looks like when, in metagame terms, his highest score is assigned to strength. Maybe House Cannith could have built a better warforged (and they did, if you count the warforged titan), but their primary goal was to mass-produce a warforged fighter with the best production cost to selling price ratio possible, and it happens that the result is only as strong as a human fighter, on average (though warforged fighters are vastly more numerous than human fighters in proportion to their respective populations). What are you arguing? I just said I didn't agree with the O.P., but the point is he had a valid question. Why was it valid, well let me quick make up a legitimate reason he might think a warforged could or would be stronger then a human: The one limitation to human strength is the amount of stress you can put on the human body. The bones and muscles rip, tear, break, fracture, etc... Warforged would not be as limited. They don't have muscles that tear, they don't have bones, being made from wood and metal. How hard is the wood compared to bones? Who cares...wood is more flexible then bones. So really, if you want to get medically technical, a warforged could have the "potential" for far greater strength. Potential and limits like this aren't part of the game, so again who cares. Again, I don't agree that warforged should have a strength modifier. I have said this numerous times now. I "DO" however think the O.P. had a valid question, and doesn't deserve to be treated like an idiot. Thank you.
Shady314 07-26-07, 07:17 PM	Be polite, the guy has a legitimate question as to why many constructs are much stronger then average, so why aren't warforged. Whoa relax there. I was actually talking to YOU not the OP. His question is understandable and I addressed it in my first post. That second piost was solely directed at the logical train of thought YOU mentioned (NOT the OP, so you can stop trying to protect the poor defenseless OP) of "Warforged are like golems. Golems are all strong. Warforged should be strong?" which is obviously a fallacious one. You answered in your opinion, no need to belittle people or make snide comments about "logic trains", implying someone is lacking common sense or "logic". I wasn't being snide. Just jocular. It's odd you took offense and not the OP. I didn't mean to belittle anyone,(and it was a line of thought YOU presented NOT the OP!) I was just teasing the fallacious line of thought YOU presented. This probably goes back to my debating days where pointing out logical fallacy is NOT seen nor interpreted as some sort of personal attack. Because it isn't. EDIT: Honestly looking at a hulking adamantine body, warforged juggernaut, is it really odd to wonder why they don't have a strength modifier? I agree warforged don't need a strength modifier, I'm not arguing about that. But is it really that odd to wonder why they don't have a strength modifier? Sheesh, sometimes you people are a brutal crowd. I was going to say exactly what Teron said. Well done Teron. Is the question understandable? Yes I agree it is. Warforged typically choose high strength scores or have strength as a primary attribute so it is easy to wonder if perhaps this attribute is not race wide. Was I trying to personally attack or belittle anyone by pointing out the logical fallacy of the line of thought? No I was not.
ArcTan 07-26-07, 07:45 PM	Well in his defense, um....golems. The original constructs...they tend to be strong you know? Looking at a hulking, muscular human barbarian, do you think humans should have a strength bonus? Of course not; that's just what a character of that race looks like when, in metagame terms, his highest score is assigned to strength. Maybe House Cannith could have built a better warforged (and they did, if you count the warforged titan), but their primary goal was to mass-produce a warforged fighter with the best production cost to selling price ratio possible, and it happens that the result is only as strong as a human fighter, on average (though warforged fighters are vastly more numerous than human fighters in proportion to their respective populations). In between the Titan and the standard form they also had Chargers, remember, who are Large sized, have a big Str bonus and yet are true living constructs (albeit kind of dumb).
Captain_Kobold 07-26-07, 09:04 PM	Pound for pound, warforged are weaker than humans. This might simply be due to the fact that warforged were developed in only a few hundred years. (Or maybe a few thousand if they were actually based on Quori designs.) They have not developed though a far longer period of evolution as have most other creatures. It might be that the fibrous bundles that give them motive power are simply weaker than normal muscle tissue, despite being thicker. They were designed to be roughtly equivalent to a human soldier in physical capabilities, in order to fit into an army pattern designed around humans. The Cannith developers might have gone to the heads of House to say: "We can make them to be as strong as the usual human soldier. Or we can make them a bit stronger, but it'll cost three times as much to produce, and take twice as long. "Which should we go for?"
DarkPawn 07-26-07, 10:59 PM	I wasn't being snide. Just jocular. It's odd you took offense and not the OP. I didn't mean to belittle anyone,(and it was a line of thought YOU presented NOT the OP!) I was just teasing the fallacious line of thought YOU presented. This probably goes back to my debating days where pointing out logical fallacy is NOT seen nor interpreted as some sort of personal attack. Because it isn't. Fair enough, but keep in mind humor isn't conveyed easily on posts in threads. It sounded fairly condescending to me, and hence why I said he had a legitimate question. I guess I'm just so used to seeing short, snide, condescending comments to posters and I took offense from my misinterpretation. I apologize if that was not your intention.
ArcTan 07-27-07, 02:21 AM	Pound for pound, warforged are weaker than humans. This might simply be due to the fact that warforged were developed in only a few hundred years. (Or maybe a few thousand if they were actually based on Quori designs.) Or it may be that some of the poundage used to calculate a Warforged's weight is built-in metal armor plating. The comparison should really be between an Adamantine Body Warforged and a human in adamantine plate mail.
Koesherbacon 07-27-07, 05:44 PM	I would wager that when the warforged achieved sentience their creators (the Canniths) had to give up some of their strength to ensure the forging process worked properly. I suppose you can think of it this way: Humans and other Great Apes come from a common ancestor. And while the Gorillas managed to remain strong, they did not have the same intellect as Humans, who are now weaker than many our animal ancestors. The reason we were able to evolve was due to our ability to use our minds to conquer more advanced tasks than simple strength was able to accomplish. (Of course this is just speculation and this evolutionary theory is yet to be proven, but bare with me). I'm not saying that its completely the same, but sometimes being smarter and able to make one's own decisions pays off more than just being strong for the sakes of being strong as the warforged's golem ancestors are. Maybe that's why the Cannith creators of the 'Forged decided to do it that way. Or perhaps the first forging processes just happened to work better on the Warforged who weren't as strong as their construct cousins. And time after time after time after time, it just became common practice to create weaker, yet smarter, Warforged.
ArcTan 07-27-07, 08:17 PM	I'm not saying that its completely the same, but sometimes being smarter and able to make one's own decisions pays off more than just being strong for the sakes of being strong as the warforged's golem ancestors are Warforged's most *direct* ancestors aren't Golems, but Warforged Chargers, who are bigger, stronger and dumber than the Warforged (and, incidentally, look like great apes).
Edymnion 07-27-07, 08:57 PM	I don know if this has been covered or not? How come Warforged don't get a bonus to strength? Is it because they are considered "living constructs"? You'd think they would since they are made out wood, stone and certain metals.Also, think of it from the other angle. The Warforged were built to be soldiers. Strength in battle isn't as important as survivability. A weapon that does just as much damage and needs less maintanence is almost always more preferrable than a weapon that does slightly more damage but is less durable and reliable. Look at small farms, for example. While modern trucks have more power, most farmers prefer older models that, while not as powerful or fancy, don't have computer controlled anything, which means they are far simpler to repair when they break down.
Koesherbacon 07-27-07, 10:46 PM	Warforged's most *direct* ancestors aren't Golems, but Warforged Chargers, who are bigger, stronger and dumber than the Warforged (and, incidentally, look like great apes). So it seems that my theory might be even more appropriate! :)
LoneStranger 07-28-07, 08:39 PM	I can see the "evolution" theory especially when you consider it goes from Golems -> Warforged Charger -> Warforged. You trade off strength and the ability to shrug off certain things for intelligence and the abilty to make their own decisions. You can either do big, strong, and stupid or "regular" size, even strength, and smart.
Edymnion 07-28-07, 09:31 PM	I can see the "evolution" theory especially when you consider it goes from Golems -> Warforged Charger -> Warforged. You trade off strength and the ability to shrug off certain things for intelligence and the abilty to make their own decisions. You can either do big, strong, and stupid or "regular" size, even strength, and smart.I'd say you missed a step. Golem -> Warforged Titan -> Warforged Charger -> Warforged.
ArcTan 07-28-07, 10:14 PM	I'd say you missed a step. Golem -> Warforged Titan -> Warforged Charger -> Warforged. Warforged Titans aren't even really directly based on Golems. Titans have never had the innate anti-magic field that is (apparently) intrinsic to how a Golem works. Titans are already made of a special composite of materials rather than just being a big block of (barely) sentient iron or stone or flesh. The whole Warforged series, starting with Titans (really, starting way back in time with the Quorcraft Warforged on which Titans are based) is a different evolutionary line from Golems. It really just goes Quorcraft Warforged->Warforged Titan->Warforged Charger->Warforged. Things like Golems, Inevitables, Homunculi and such are just different kinds of Constructs that operate on different principles.
Edymnion 07-29-07, 01:22 PM	Warforged Titans aren't even really directly based on Golems. Titans have never had the innate anti-magic field that is (apparently) intrinsic to how a Golem works. Titans are already made of a special composite of materials rather than just being a big block of (barely) sentient iron or stone or flesh. The whole Warforged series, starting with Titans (really, starting way back in time with the Quorcraft Warforged on which Titans are based) is a different evolutionary line from Golems. It really just goes Quorcraft Warforged->Warforged Titan->Warforged Charger->Warforged. Things like Golems, Inevitables, Homunculi and such are just different kinds of Constructs that operate on different principles.Yup, warforged have no real connection to golems at all, but if someone insists on trying to make a lineage, you gotta get the Titan in there.
LoneStranger 07-29-07, 08:47 PM	Well I was trying to go for more of a design path for how the warforged came to be, I actually just checked and yeah the titan was before the charger. Oops oh well.
Ogiwan 08-02-07, 09:41 AM	Actually, I would put the tree like so: Existing Golems\ ______________Titan -> Charger -> Warforged Quori Warforged/ My logic being, Golems existed, but were impractical for the Last War because of many reasons (cost, reliance on controller, etc). When Cannith discovered some of the technosorcery used with the Quori 'Forged, they were able to produce the Titans, which had self-awareness and a limited intelligence (on a note, as a commander, I would rather have a group of Titans rather than golems, because of that limited intelligence). From there, the charger and 'forged.
Koesherbacon 08-02-07, 10:04 AM	What book are the Quori Warforged in?
Edymnion 08-02-07, 12:36 PM	What book are the Quori Warforged in?Secrets of Xen'Drik.
ArcTan 08-02-07, 02:08 PM	Actually, I would put the tree like so: Existing Golems\ ______________Titan -> Charger -> Warforged Quori Warforged/ My logic being, Golems existed, but were impractical for the Last War because of many reasons (cost, reliance on controller, etc). When Cannith discovered some of the technosorcery used with the Quori 'Forged, they were able to produce the Titans, which had self-awareness and a limited intelligence (on a note, as a commander, I would rather have a group of Titans rather than golems, because of that limited intelligence). From there, the charger and 'forged. Yes, but other than the fact that the Cannith folks already knew about Golems and how Golems worked, Golems have no connection to this process. Warforged Titans aren't anything like Golems -- at least, they're no more similar to Golems than Quorcraft Warforged are. Everything about Warforged -- the intelligence, the living-ness, the human size and shape and outlook -- is making them *less* Golem-like, not more. It's like saying the two "ancestors" of a 747 are the Wright Brothers' Flyer 1 and the Hindenburg. They aren't. The zeppelin has nothing to do with the airplane except that it was around when the people who invented airplanes invented airplanes, and that airplanes were invented to not be zeppelins.
ornitholestes 08-18-07, 12:38 PM	While warforged may not have a bonus to strength - I would wager the "average" warforged is stronger then the average human for several reasons. 1.) Warforged are stated to rarely have NPC classes, this could imply that they are built with higher stats (either 4D6 drop the lowest or a standard array) then the average commoner with stats of 11,11,11,10,10,10. Compare a first level warforged fighter to a first level human warrior and you will see how much of a force on the battlefield they really might be. 2.) Warforged backgrounds, training, and even in-game abilities tend to push them towards combat oriented classes (fighter, barbarian, etc...) these classes tend to put a high value on strength and probably put their highest or second highest attribute roll to it. It is similar to half orcs that get no bonus to constitution, but are often barbarians and still have a lot of HP. Thus, a typical warforged may have a strength in line with a typical human adventurer, but the adventurer is already an exceptional person. Compared to an average human, I would guess the average warforged is stronger.
Drag0nUL 08-18-07, 02:31 PM	I think the main out-of-game reason why warforged have no Str bonus is to keep them balanced as a 0 LA race. however, leaving game mechancs aside, I think there might be a few pretty valid in-game reasons for that. Warforged were built to be soldiers, so it makes perfect sense to make them the best possible soldiers within the boundaries of feasibility and cost. In real life melee weapon combat (unlike D&D rules), being stronger does not make you a better fighter. Past the point at which you can wield your weapon without effort, being stronger doesn't mean you will fight better. Just hit harder. But in a real combat (again unlike D&D) a good sword hit usually meant a dead or at least incapacitated opponent, No matter if you stabbed your opponent through the heart or if you cut him in two with your awesome strength, the end result was the same: a dead body. So having an extraordinary strength was not vital for a warforged soldier. However, being more resilient was. The Cannith artificers focused more on making the warforged so tough that they could survive many of the hits that would have taken down a flesh-and-blood soldier. To achieve that they used materials that were inherently tougher than those found in human bodies (+2 Con) and they tried to place the essential parts of the warforged in less exposed places (fortification).
Captain_Kobold 08-18-07, 09:13 PM	While I think you are completely wrong about the part strength plays in melee combat, I think that the point Edymnion and you make about survivability being more important than power is a good one. They were designed to use the same equipment as other soldiers in the army they were sold to were. Being significantly bigger and/or stronger would require special kit, whereas most warforged already come with protection fitted, and their added endurance and toughness only reduces their military needs, not adds to it. The artificers may have found that the materials required to make the Warforged made them more resilient, or have decided to make them more resilient by using those materials. The big advantages the warforged have over human troops is more to do with their construct-like natures than their ability bonus however: In a straight fight between two otherwise evenly matched opponents, the larger and stronger will always have a big advantage. However, in wartime, an unit of troops that requires no supply train or support, and that can outmarch any other unit will bring far more advantage than a unit of stronger troops.
ArcTan 08-22-07, 01:52 AM	There were WF who *did* have a Str bonus. The earlier generation of WF, the Chargers, and before them, the Titans, were really strong mofos. The Titans were like moving siege weapons who could pull down walls. The Chargers were smarter and more human-like but who nonetheless bounded across the battlefield like apes and simply punched through their opponents. And yes, in both cases these were significantly larger constructs than people, mostly unable to use human weaponry or take advantage of human equipment. They had "built-in" weapons (their solid metal fists) that they were designed to use, and weren't intended to use ordinary human weapons. The modern-day Warforged are considered more valuable because they can be used for a much greater variety of tasks, because they're of human size and humanoid construction and fight the way humans do, just better and more durably.
ArcTan 08-22-07, 01:58 AM	In real life melee weapon combat (unlike D&D rules), being stronger does not make you a better fighter. Past the point at which you can wield your weapon without effort, being stronger doesn't mean you will fight better. Just hit harder. But in a real combat (again unlike D&D) a good sword hit usually meant a dead or at least incapacitated opponent, No matter if you stabbed your opponent through the heart or if you cut him in two with your awesome strength, the end result was the same: a dead body. So having an extraordinary strength was not vital for a warforged soldier. This is... not really true at all. For one thing, the Golden Age of melee combat almost always relied on some kind of armor or shielding when you got onto the real battlefield. "Dueling" with no armor and very light weapons like rapiers and foils was the result of melee combat not being real combat anymore, but a ritualized form of combat relegated to aristocrats settling private grievances -- while the battlefield had become dominated by gunpowder. But if you're a real soldier using real melee weapons, then you're wearing some kind of armor or carrying some kind of shield. This always requires strength. The difference between trained soldiers isn't who's "strong enough to use the weapon" and who isn't, but who's strong enough to carry their gear *longer* without getting fatigued -- that's what makes the difference on a battlefield. (I.e. what D&D treats as encumbrance.) Furthermore, human bodies aren't as delicate as all that. Piercing someone through the heart, even if completely unarmored, is *not easy*, especially if they're trying not to get pierced through the heart. There's bone and thick sinew in your way. You need strength to get a straight and accurate thrust or cut. The strength behind a blow is the difference between a blow that bounces off a shield harmlessly and bounces off a shield, cracking and spraining the opponent's wrist; or one that's harmlessly turned aside by a gorget or one that smacks the gorget hard enough to leave the opponent gasping and seeing stars; or a cut that shallowly slices through a layer of skin and subcutaneous fat, causing pain but no real damage, or a cut that bites into the layer of muscle underneath and makes it impossible for the opponent to put weight on that leg. So yes, D&D's treatment of Str as "accuracy" in melee combat isn't the most realistic thing in the world, but no, strength was *not* irrelevant to melee combat -- it was very important. Any medieval knight who didn't exercise regularly and maintain medieval strength-training exercises (which did involve things like lifting weights and doing push-ups) was asking to get killed eventually. They were the equivalent of today's pro athletes -- their training regimen was most akin to what pro football stars do. (Or boxers and wrestlers -- both things that medieval fighters *did learn*, and both sports that, at that time, were seen as a way to encourage people to keep in shape for real combat.)
Roxlimn 08-22-07, 12:41 PM	The human body gets an incredibly bad rap. Pound for pound, some of the strongest materials in the world aren't mineral but organic. Spider silk is stronger than steel and has superior tensile strength and ductility. Living bone reinforced by bundles of tense and shock-absorbing muscle groups are actually incredibly durable, much more than wood and steel, especially for weight. In fact, the reason no one's even come close to producing humanoid robots anything close to androids is manyfold and some of those reasons are that we can't currently make motors strong enough and light enough to do what normal people can, to say nothing of having to make materials to impossible biological standards. I think the reason people assume that artificial creatures ought to be stronger than people is because modern machines are capable of great feats of strength. What this doesn't take into account is the fact that these machines are usually highly breakable with short lifespans, and that they're usually comparatively huge, with limited functions. A Warforged is nothing like that. In fact, it's nothing short of a magical miracle. For it to even be as strong and versatile in physical function as a human places it beyond anything modern technology can replicate.
Jeebus2010 08-26-07, 07:43 AM	I'm gunna make my opinion short and simple they vito'ed the "+2 Str" bonus to keep it at a 0 LA, they have a 1d4 slam which represents heavier then human materials which is not so say you couldn`t just table rule it and say they get a +2 to Str and a -2 Dex (stronger less agile but just as tough n smart) and should still be a 0 LA race if i'm wrong feel free to correct me
Herodot83 09-05-07, 06:50 AM	Yes, that would be an appropriate solution for the players who think their Warforged character should be realy strong. The player then has to see how to keep his Warforged alive with a lower AC, lower Initiative and lower Reflexes (let alone the many skills relying on dexterity rather than strength) - just for hitting a bit better and harder and beeing able to carry a little more weight. *g*