Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spotas 03-19-07, 11:35 PM	I am playing a Warforged Artificer and was searching magic items to maximize my effectiveness when I came across the Unguent of Timelessness(pg. 268 DMG 3.5) and was wondering what kind of affect it would have on a Warforged? It seems to me that since some of the Warforged components are organic as is described in the ECS it seems to me that the Unguent of Timelessness should extend the life of the Warforged as well, since the flexible parts would be the ones taking all the wear and tear. Not to mention the effect of a permanent +1 to all saves. Please tell me what you think on this, so when I play next I can run it by my DM. Thanks Spotas
Belabras 03-19-07, 11:49 PM	I'm not even sure what a warfroged is. Maybe somekind of really tough fly that's been thoroughly licked by an amphibian? As far as the Ungent goes, you need to remember that Warforged are constructs, not objects. As a construct, a warforged is effectively immortal already, and changing the nature of it's material composition isn't going to have much effect on that. Even if it did, all the ungent is going to do is make his outer plates permanently shiny, something that wouldn't effect his insides much.
JulesCARV 03-20-07, 12:56 AM	The unguent can be applied to "matter that was once alive." A still-living warforged shouldn't get any benefit, although a dead one could, I suppose, if for some reason you want to avoid having the corpse decay.
Spotas 03-20-07, 09:12 PM	Umm, yeah sorry about the typo, he he. It was kinda late when I posted. But seriously, a construct is not a living thing. Yes a warforged doesn't have all the characteristics of a standard construct but they were constructed and have most of the characteristics of constructs, plus there is a prestige class that gives the other traits of standard constructs. The only reason I even posted the question is I saw that warforged hit middle age at 150 years and thought the Unguent of Timelessness might be able to slow that down a bit. Not that a campaign will ever last that long. But I still think that it should apply a permanent +1 to saves like the described in the DMG. I haven't seen anything about them not being able to use potions but I might have missed that.
Belabras 03-20-07, 10:19 PM	:P Even if you could treat constructs as objects (you have to let go of normal logic here and embrace D&D logic.), which you can't, warforged are living constructs. They can be effected by potions, but the ungent isn't a potion, and it's effect on living material could be anything from negligable to disastrous (it makes things unchangible, imagine all the bad things that could do to parts of a living creature.) By RAW, the ungent does nothing, so it's up to your DM if it's going to do something outside of the rules that is good, or very very bad.
Spotas 03-20-07, 10:20 PM	Ok, after doing a little research on the Warforged the race subtype is Living Construct, but are they really alive? Does sap still flow through the dark wood or other plant material used to make them? Or does blood still flow to the various types of leather or sinew used to make tendons or joint pads? I think what they mean by "Living Construct" is that they are sentient and have all the ability scores of living races. Of course I am probably reaching too far for this, I think my original idea was mainly for a role playing concept and was curious what others thought of it. Thanks for your input.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-20-07, 10:46 PM	If the unguent specifically works on objects, it won't work on warforged. It won't work on golems or zombies, either. In the D&D ruleset, something is either an object or a creature. If it's a creature, it's not an object. Whether the creature is alive, nonliving (in the sense of being a construct), or unliving doesn't change that - it's still not an object.
yrogerg 03-21-07, 07:33 AM	Ok, after doing a little research on the Warforged the race subtype is Living Construct, but are they really alive? Does sap still flow through the dark wood or other plant material used to make them? Or does blood still flow to the various types of leather or sinew used to make tendons or joint pads? Err, yes, actually; further elaboration from WotC has made it clear that they're immune to neither the Drain Blood special ability nor Wounding weapons. I think what they mean by "Living Construct" is that they are sentient and have all the ability scores of living races. Yes, but the standard the MM uses is "Has a Con Score"=Living. Check the nonabilities section of the SRD.
Spotas 03-22-07, 10:07 PM	If the unguent specifically works on objects, it won't work on warforged. It won't work on golems or zombies, either. In the D&D ruleset, something is either an object or a creature. If it's a creature, it's not an object. Whether the creature is alive, nonliving (in the sense of being a construct), or unliving doesn't change that - it's still not an object. I think the classification of a warforged is a little hazy, the only reason I say that is because of the Artificer infusion ability's. On the bottom of page 31 of the ECB where it talks about Infusions it states " An artificer's infusions can only be imbued in to an item or a construct (including warforged).". That sounds to me that if an item can only affect objects that it could affect warforged too.
Spotas 03-22-07, 10:22 PM	Err, yes, actually; further elaboration from WotC has made it clear that they're immune to neither the Drain Blood special ability nor Wounding weapons. Yes, but the standard the MM uses is "Has a Con Score"=Living. Check the nonabilities section of the SRD. Ok, I am a little confused by your first statement, blood drain and wounding does or does not work of warforged. And second I am not sure what SRD stands for, but I am sure when you tell me I will feel really stupid.
yrogerg 03-22-07, 10:53 PM	Ok, I am a little confused by your first statement, blood drain and wounding does or does not work of warforged. They're not immune to either. They bleed. In fact, they bleed something that's sufficiently blood-like that blood drain abilities work. And second I am not sure what SRD stands for, but I am sure when you tell me I will feel really stupid. System reference document (IIRC); it basically contains all of the non-OGL (i.e, non-product-identity) rules of the d20 system, primarily to allow third-party publishers to use the d20 ruleset. It also means the bulk of D&D rules are publicly available, on sites such as d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org). It's mostly useful for character creation at home, or conducting rules arguments on these boards, though in both cases, an actual PHB is still marginally more useful. Anyway, the specific section I was referencing was here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities)
ArcTan 03-24-07, 02:52 AM	Ok, after doing a little research on the Warforged the race subtype is Living Construct, but are they really alive? Does sap still flow through the dark wood or other plant material used to make them? Or does blood still flow to the various types of leather or sinew used to make tendons or joint pads? I think what they mean by "Living Construct" is that they are sentient and have all the ability scores of living races. Of course I am probably reaching too far for this, I think my original idea was mainly for a role playing concept and was curious what others thought of it. Thanks for your input. They're an artificial being that mimics the functions of life forms closely enough that it's as though they have living systems. They have a Constitution score, which means they carry on something like life processes -- they're vulnerable to crits, which means they have vital organs, of sorts. They're not "alive" in the sense that they contain anything we'd recognize as a truly organic part, but the complex network of fibers, tubules of alchemical fluids, wire, joints, magical sigils, and so on simulates life very closely. They are, for all the most important purposes, alive.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 02:56 AM	Err, yes, actually; further elaboration from WotC has made it clear that they're immune to neither the Drain Blood special ability nor Wounding weapons. While I understand the ruling, I don't like it very much and wouldn't use it myself, any more than I'd allow a vampire to "Drain Sap" from a treant. Besides, I don't take stuff from the FAQ and CustServ as binding. These are the same folks who said iron heart surge from Tome of Battle (the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell) can dispel an antimagic field. Letting wounding weapons work, though, I can deal with. There's multiple ways something can be equivalent to a "bleeding wound" without actually bleeding.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 03:01 AM	I am playing a Warforged Artificer and was searching magic items to maximize my effectiveness when I came across the Unguent of Timelessness(pg. 268 DMG 3.5) and was wondering what kind of affect it would have on a Warforged? It seems to me that since some of the Warforged components are organic as is described in the ECS it seems to me that the Unguent of Timelessness should extend the life of the Warforged as well, since the flexible parts would be the ones taking all the wear and tear. Not to mention the effect of a permanent +1 to all saves. Please tell me what you think on this, so when I play next I can run it by my DM. Thanks Spotas No. First of all, warforged automatically do not decay. The alchemy inside them replaces their lost metals over time perfectly (you don't need adamantine to do a Repair check on an Adamantine Body warforged). Their aging chart shows they have no maximum age, meaning they live forever if not killed (and, indeed, there are rumors of ancient warforged from the Age of Giants still alive in Xen'drik, thousands of years old -- there's one in Grasp of the Emerald Claw). Seond, unguent of timelessness only works on objects. Creatures, even non-living ones like true constructs (golems and the like) are not objects, they are creatures. This is a very basic part of the rules. The properties you have as a creature you do not have as an object. A human's hit points and AC, for example, are entirely different from the HP and AC of his corpse. Once all *your* HP are gone, you become a corpse, which has its *own* set of HP -- your HP represent how many whacks it takes to kill you, while your corpse's HP represent how many whacks it takes to break your corpse apart into pieces. Different concepts. Now, you *could* use an unguent of timelessness on a warforged corpse to keep it from decaying. Since warforged are kept alive by alchemy, the metals in them degrade very quickly after death, such that "rotting" does set in and you do have to hurry to cast raise dead in time on a warforged the way you do on a human. In that regard, though, a warforged corpse is no different from any other.
yrogerg 03-25-07, 10:14 AM	While I understand the ruling, I don't like it very much and wouldn't use it myself, any more than I'd allow a vampire to "Drain Sap" from a treant. Sure. Personally, the ability to at least cause Con damage with Blood drain abilities doesn't bother me nearly as much as the "clarification" that Warforged were vulnerable to an Illithid's Extract ability.