Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ice_117 07-15-07, 09:52 PM	I don't know if anybody has done this before but I figured I'd give it a try. Now, observing the relation between Warforged and Psiforged, I suspect that the Warforgeds' brains consist of crystaline growth. I deduce this by taking what we know from the Psiforged, namely that their bodies have extraordiary amounts of these same crystal growths I was talking about, and adding that to what we know of baseline Warforged. According to Races of Eberron, Psiforged are just "Warforged with the Psiforged Body feat". That tells me that if Psiforged simply have more of them, then all or most Warforged must grow them as a part of their natural lifecycle. What do you guys think? I spoke with the members of my playing group and they had no problem with it. Plus, it is pretty fun to fantasize about the physiology of an original species like the Warforged.
Revvecor 07-15-07, 09:57 PM	That sounds reasonable. Crystals are used for magically storing not only the conscience of an individuals as part of some magical ceremonies, but there soul. So your reasoning applies nicely. :ayyyy!:
Ice_117 07-15-07, 10:15 PM	Thank you. It also explains alot about a Warforged's senses. Taste = Nothing. Totally Null. Besides, no tongue. Smell = Almost the same as taste. Faint, almost none existant. Touch = Faded, but very receptive to such things as magic and psionics. Hearing = Equivalent to a humans. Sight = Good. Very good. In fact, my GM, bless him, came up with a rule that Warforged can, under most circumstances, see the faint waves and emanations of magic and psionics that flow everywhere in Eberron. Most Warforged just take it for granted and don't mention it.
yossarius 07-15-07, 10:28 PM	I don't have a problem with the warforged consciousness residing in a crystal structure (perhaps a medium-sized dragonshard), but I think it would be a misnomer to call it a brain. The brain would actually be an energy matrix that exists within the crystal. Also, i don't think I would put the "brain" inside the head. The head seems to me to be a rather vulnerable extension of the human body. I have to think that at some point the Cannith artificers would realize this. If it were me, I'd either have one crystal in the chest, or several smaller ones spread out through the whole body.
Revvecor 07-15-07, 10:43 PM	I agree that the "brain" within a dragonshard would more than likely not be in the head. Although there could be a network of crystals between the other materials within the body of a warforged. This would explain the inferior nature of some of the warforged senses. In other words the crystals may not be very close to the surface of their "skin".
Ice_117 07-15-07, 11:04 PM	Hmmm... yes, a 'mental latticework', yes... I like it! If you think about it, that would mean that having your head smashed by a mace would slow you down more often than it would kill you. Also, it explains about the way Warforged just go inert when they get beat up too bad. Too many of their crystaline linkages are being severed and interrupted. Not to mention things like 'Nerve Strike'. Do you suppose that when a Warforged takes levels in things like Warforged Juggernaut and Reforged their 'matrix' becomes either more recessed or prominent as they progress?
Revvecor 07-15-07, 11:10 PM	Do you suppose that when a Warforged takes levels in things like Warforged Juggernaut and Reforged their 'matrix' becomes either more recessed or prominent as they progress? That would make sense and explain alot.:lightbulb I am glad you brought this up, I had only thought of this subject in passing every now and then. Its a good were writing this done so I can reference it every now and then.:cool:
Ice_117 07-15-07, 11:29 PM	You're welcome. Due to the nature of their peculiar mental design, do you think that they may have some strange way of sharing information? Like, just with a handshake, letting their matrixes meet through mere physical contact, they could learn just about everything about eachother? :embarrass That adds a strange, almost sensual feel to it.
Revvecor 07-15-07, 11:43 PM	Due to the nature of their peculiar mental design, do you think that they may have some strange way of sharing information? Like, just with a handshake, letting their matrixes meet through mere physical contact, they could learn just about everything about eachother? I don't think they could communicate/transmit information by touch. Although in theory a warforged with a strong mental/physic abilities could implant ideas in those weak willed warforged around them(similar to dominate person). This could be a reason behind how fast the ranks of the Lord of the Blades swelled and how they system of punishment is so savvier(killing anyone who disagrees in the slightest with their orders,because they were resisting their "forced" orders).
Ice_117 07-16-07, 12:01 AM	Perhaps. You know, speaking of the LoB, I have to wonder: do you think that, due to a blocked linkage or maybe some abberration of growth, that a Warforged could develop something like a nervous twitch or spasm or some other physical anomaly?
Alex_ 07-16-07, 12:28 AM	Perhaps. You know, speaking of the LoB, I have to wonder: do you think that, due to a blocked linkage or maybe some abberration of growth, that a Warforged could develop something like a nervous twitch or spasm or some other physical anomaly? Well Warforged are LIVING constructs, with a mix of living and non-living traits that seem to have no real consistency. When the first Warforged started coming out of the Creation Forges, they surprised their creators with many of their traits. Also, they're magically "alive", but not so in a biological sense. Because of their unpredictable mix of traits, you can't really go, "Warforged are constructs therefore ABC," or "Warforged are living therefore XYZ," So if you wanted one to have a nervous twitch, say so, but I wouldn't go looking for an actual mechanical explanation.
Ice_117 07-16-07, 12:51 AM	"Huh? Oh, yes I used to wash windows in Sharn. Um... it- it was not the best job in the world *twitch*. I-I got a job up on one of-*twitch*- one of the really -*twitch*- really- *twitch* *twitch*- really high ones once. I-I-It did not- *twitch* go w-well *twitch* *twitch*." --Tumble, former window washer of Sharn Gravity works. :pint:
Concerto 07-16-07, 02:09 AM	Actually, seeing how warforged can physically change themselves by become juggernauts or reforged, perhaps there are more things they can do, maybe even learning to change their physical bodies into different forms. Like, turning their arm into a blade when they feel like it, or perhaps even claws or chain whips.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 02:13 AM	I don't know if anybody has done this before but I figured I'd give it a try. Now, observing the relation between Warforged and Psiforged, I suspect that the Warforgeds' brains consist of crystaline growth. I deduce this by taking what we know from the Psiforged, namely that their bodies have extraordiary amounts of these same crystal growths I was talking about, and adding that to what we know of baseline Warforged. Well, no. It's just because psionic powers, flavorwise, have always been associated with crystals and crystalline objects. (All Universal Psionic Items are said by the XPH to include crystals somewhere in their structure; the standard "familiar" for a psychic class is a psicrystal; etc.) According to Races of Eberron, Psiforged are just "Warforged with the Psiforged Body feat". That tells me that if Psiforged simply have more of them, then all or most Warforged must grow them as a part of their natural lifecycle. Er, no. Why would you think that? That's like thinking that because Adamantine Body is "just a feat", all Warforged have adamantine somewhere in them (which we have no reason to think is true). What do you guys think? I spoke with the members of my playing group and they had no problem with it. Plus, it is pretty fun to fantasize about the physiology of an original species like the Warforged. I think that while I'm not *opposed* to the idea of Warforged brains being some kind of crystal, I don't really like it that much and find your reasons unconvincing. (Until I see direct evidence otherwise, actually, I'm operating under the assumption that Warforged don't have any particular part of their body that functions as the "brain" and their seat of consciousness remains mysterious. This means Mind Flayers can't extract from them, true, but to me that's not the game-breaking issue other people are making out of it.)
ArcTan 07-16-07, 02:16 AM	Thank you. It also explains alot about a Warforged's senses. Taste = Nothing. Totally Null. Besides, no tongue. Smell = Almost the same as taste. Faint, almost none existant. Keith Baker's Warforged Dragonshard disagrees with you. Touch = Faded, but very receptive to such things as magic and psionics. Based on... what? Nothing says Warforged have a diminished sense of touch compared to Humans -- more importantly, Warforged do *not* have any special ability to sense magic or psionics by touch. Hearing = Equivalent to a humans. Sight = Good. Very good. In fact, my GM, bless him, came up with a rule that Warforged can, under most circumstances, see the faint waves and emanations of magic and psionics that flow everywhere in Eberron. Most Warforged just take it for granted and don't mention it. Well, he totally made that up. Warforged absolutely do not have detect magic or arcane sight as a built-in ability, and if they did it'd be an argument for bumping them to LA +1. In fact, the Warforged Wisdom penalty actually means the average Warforged is *worse* at Spot and Listen checks than a Human Commoner. (This combined with the fact that Warforged are supposed to be Fighter 2 on average, which means they're not getting Spot or Listen as class skills, while Human Commoners are.) I mean, if you make up a flavor element you can make up other flavor that supports it, but that's the *opposite* of saying that a flavor element "makes sense" because it "explains" things that were actually there in the setting.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 02:17 AM	I don't have a problem with the warforged consciousness residing in a crystal structure (perhaps a medium-sized dragonshard), but I think it would be a misnomer to call it a brain. The brain would actually be an energy matrix that exists within the crystal. No, minds are the patterns of energy that hold thoughts and consciousness. Brains are the physical objects in which these patterns of energy manifest. Our minds are "patterns of energy" too -- neuron discharges that occur in the big fatty lumps we call "brains".
ArcTan 07-16-07, 02:21 AM	Hmmm... yes, a 'mental latticework', yes... I like it! If you think about it, that would mean that having your head smashed by a mace would slow you down more often than it would kill you. Also, it explains about the way Warforged just go inert when they get beat up too bad. Too many of their crystaline linkages are being severed and interrupted. Not to mention things like 'Nerve Strike'. Er, when parts of a Human's brain get severed and interrupted, the Human dies, or suffers irreversible brain damage. Brains (or any organ whose job it is to be the processor for things as complex as sentient consciousness) are delicate. The fact that Warforged go inert and can, upon being repaired, recover with no problems is actually an argument that a Warforged *doesn't* have an organ analogous to the brain -- that their consciousness is wholly spiritual or magical or some sort of external thing controlling their body. Otherwise it *wouldn't* make sense -- or, at least, make less sense -- that a Warforged body can just go dead for thousands of years and then suddenly be reactivated, with the consciousness returning at full acuity with no degradation or sense of time passing. Do you suppose that when a Warforged takes levels in things like Warforged Juggernaut and Reforged their 'matrix' becomes either more recessed or prominent as they progress? It's a possible theory, although saying the "brain" is shrinking or growing doesn't do them justice. Reforged are not actually *smarter* than Juggernauts, nor Juggernauts any dumber than Reforged. Intelligence is not affected by these classes, nor are the native Wisdom and Charisma scores (for things like spellcasting), *only* the Warforged's ability to relate to others through social skills. The Lord of Blades' personality is just as strong as it was before he ever became a Juggernaut, and he's just as smart. He's just become less inclined to communicate with others.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 02:24 AM	You're welcome. Due to the nature of their peculiar mental design, do you think that they may have some strange way of sharing information? Like, just with a handshake, letting their matrixes meet through mere physical contact, they could learn just about everything about eachother? :embarrass That adds a strange, almost sensual feel to it. You can make it up, if you like. But Warforged by default have no special ability to use detect thoughts by touching each other than they do to automatically have arcane sight. I'm not directly opposed to these as flavor ideas for a campaign but I find the ideas very dodgy balance-wise, and in some ways quite contrary to the nature of the Warforged as described in official materials. (Warforged were *not* built to have any particular affinity to magic, and are the people in the world who understand themselves and their own construction *least of all* -- the Lord of Blades' knowledge about making Warforged is something he had to fight for, not something he instinctively knows. Warforged do *not* have any special connection to other living things, *including and especially* each other -- their general taciturn and introverted nature is something that they started with when they lived and worked only among each other, and having empathy and understanding of other beings is something they're only beginning to acquire now. Etc.)
Ice_117 07-16-07, 02:33 AM	I'm not too sure, Concerto. I know that Warforged can change over time, but I don't think it's something that they really have any direct control over. Does it say anywhere that an Illithid can extract a Warforged's brain?
ArcTan 07-16-07, 02:48 AM	I'm not too sure, Concerto. I know that Warforged can change over time, but I don't think it's something that they really have any direct control over. Becoming a Reforged or becoming a Juggernaut seems always to be presented as a decision on the part of the Warforged. Does it say anywhere that an Illithid can extract a Warforged's brain? No. Doesn't say anywhere that it can't, either. What people decide about this is a kind of litmus test for their philosophy about dealing with new races.
Ice_117 07-16-07, 02:52 AM	ArcTan, I was NOT talking to you. Also, I don't see why you are being such a nay sayer. Did I do something wrong?
madninjapimp 07-16-07, 11:13 AM	IIRC it is stated in one of the dragonshards or main eberron books that the warforge "brain" is a crystal... Though i'm not sure of the top of my head where... :weep:
ZappoHisbane 07-16-07, 11:25 AM	ArcTan, I was NOT talking to you. Also, I don't see why you are being such a nay sayer. Did I do something wrong? If you're looking to have a private conversation, don't do it in a public forum. Anyone can, and will, reply to you. :) Arctan is simply pointing out that all the explanations above are not supported by the RAW, or by the established flavor of the setting. House rules are fine and dandy, let's just be sure to realize that's what we're dealing with here. He's also right in that the more mystical abilities mentioned above (seeing magic auras, sharing thoughts by touch) seem like harmless flavor. What they're really doing though is duplicating some effects of existing magic spells, which in an always-on or use-activated wonderous item would cost upwards of 2,000 GP. That sort of thing practically begs for an LA to keep things balanced.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 01:12 PM	IIRC it is stated in one of the dragonshards or main eberron books that the warforge "brain" is a crystal... Though i'm not sure of the top of my head where... :weep: I can tell you that if it's there it's not in the Dragonshards or in the Eberron books I currently own (slightly out-of-date -- I don't yet have Forge of War, Secrets of Sarlona, etc.) You might be thinking of Secrets of Xen'drik, when we learned that the earliest ever version of Warforged was the Quorcraft Warforged, who were mindless shells created to be the host bodies of the Quori of the Age of Monsters for when they fled Dal Quor. It turns out that Docents, the little symbiotic metallic balls that guide and train Warforged, are actually entrapped Quori spirits, and that if the Quorcraft Warforged still existed the Docents wouldn't just be able to communicate with them but to control them and use them as bodies. That doesn't apply to modern Warforged, though, which is very important. Warforged as a sentient, humanlike race of free souls are a new development that happened long after the Quorcraft Warforged, and a Docent *cannot* use a modern Warforged as its own body -- it has its own mind and personality that can't be shoved aside. How this works and what this means is a mystery, especially to the Docents themselves, who never intended such a thing.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 01:13 PM	ArcTan, I was NOT talking to you. Also, I don't see why you are being such a nay sayer. Did I do something wrong? I'm only being a "naysayer" in that there's a difference between coming up with an idea out of the blue that you want to use (which is fine) and trying to say that your idea makes sense in the actual canon (which in many cases is spoilin' for a fight). I'm not saying your idea is stupid or terrible, just that it's *inconsistent* with what's already there about Warforged, which is why a lot of people might not choose to use it. And, from a game balance perspective -- since this is a game as much as it is a story -- actually letting Warforged characters do what you're talking about would make them very powerful relative to other characters without justification.
Ice_117 07-16-07, 02:07 PM	Yeah, you're right, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to have some fun, that's all. It's just that, of all the standard races throughout the d20 universe, the Warforged are absolutely my number one favorite, with Daelkyr Half-Blood being second and the Dragonborn from RoD (Races of the Dragon) being third. There are more, but the list is too long. My reasoning for this whole hypothesis is that, seeing as how crystals and Dragonshards are such a big part the Eberron storyline, they may have a big part to play with the Warforged. Which they do, one way or another, according to canon. Also, and I'm just wondering, how do crystals grow in the REAL WORLD?
TiwazTyrsfist 07-16-07, 04:37 PM	So, crystals, in the real world, form just like ice crystals. All crystals, diamonds and rubys and such like. Just at a different pace in different conditions. First you have a solution that contains the raw material of the crystal (i.e. Carbon). Something, whether a foreign particle or a pressure change, causes a couple suspended building blocks to connect and for the nucleus of a crystal system. This then collides with more building blocks, which become attached, eventually forming a large whole. Now, for diamonds, this happens under extreme pressure and heat. For quartz, I believe it can happen at normal surface temperatures from water movement. If that helps.
Vharuck 07-16-07, 04:54 PM	Also, i don't think I would put the "brain" inside the head. The head seems to me to be a rather vulnerable extension of the human body. I have to think that at some point the Cannith artificers would realize this. If it were me, I'd either have one crystal in the chest, or several smaller ones spread out through the whole body. Cannith had very little influence in the creation process, actually. They stole the technology and information, started the process, and sometimes made choices (warforged scouts, body armor, etc.), but what came out was a thing that existed before the first Cannith dragonmark even appeared. Soldiers wouldn't really need to taste, but warforged do (according to K.B.). Soldiers are better without a sense of individuality, but the warfoged do have this.
Symar 07-16-07, 05:35 PM	IIRC it is stated in one of the dragonshards or main eberron books that the warforge "brain" is a crystal... Though i'm not sure of the top of my head where... :weep: Faiths of Eberron, Wakeful Mind graft is part of a warforged's brain, and appears like a smooth, gently glowing gem with tendrils.
Demangel 07-16-07, 07:23 PM	Warfogred can indeed taste and smell, in the ECS right in the beginning where it discusses Warforged, there is a little blurb that mentions this, and it stands out in my mind because it made a point of saying that it was odd that warforged could indeed taste things, as they have no need, or ability to actually eat. However, the sense itself may be diluted or dulled, that part I cannot recall ATM.
Edymnion 07-16-07, 07:34 PM	Does it say anywhere that an Illithid can extract a Warforged's brain?You can't use that kind of logic. Does it say anywhere that an Illithid can extract a gnome's brain? No, it doesn't get that specific. It has an ability, it has listed limits. Unless something falls under those listed limits, or SPECIFICALLY says that it acts differantly, then it works exactly the same. Hence the Warforged Rule of Thumb. "Unless specifically stated otherwise, the Warforged are just like any other race." It doesn't matter how nonsensical it may seem, thats the way the mechanics work. Does a Warforged have blood like everybody else? Probably not. Does that mean they're immune to a vampire or stirge's blood drain? Nope, because they are not immune to ability damage. Can a Warforged run forever? Nope, they're immune to fatigue, but without the right feats/PrC, they are not immune to non-lethal damage, so they can run until they take so much non-lethal damage they fall over unconcious. And the corresponding test to the WF Rule of Thumb: "When in doubt, replace the word 'Warforge' with 'Human' and ask it again. The answer for the Warforged will almost always be the same as it is for a Human."
LoneStranger 07-16-07, 07:53 PM	I have to admit that it is interesting to think of a warforged brain as a crystal lattice in the head which would make at least some sense. As far as some of the other abilities given to the warforged early in this thread I do admit the ability to see magical energy and/or psionic energy is a tad overpowering for them. As for the Warforged senses there's an article in the Eberron section of this site saying that they have all five senses, sure smell and taste are the weakest but both are still present.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 08:50 PM	Soldiers wouldn't really need to taste, but warforged do (according to K.B.). Soldiers are better without a sense of individuality, but the warfoged do have this. I'd actually question your latter statement. People who don't know much about fighting and war like to stereotype the soldier as someone without any will of his own who is a robotlike instrument of his superior officers, but that's not really how it works. In a combat situation, the ability to think on your feet, think on your own and make your own decisions when the time comes is precious. Unless you could make "officers" who had a hivemind-like control over all their troops -- some kind of computer or Ender's Game-like genius -- soldiers need to have half a brain and need to have their own, personal desire to survive and succeed when officers aren't there directly riding their asses. A lot of the training the military puts you through is designed to make sure you'll still be a competent soldier when there *isn't* anyone there telling you what to do. The fact that Warforged are capable of making decisions and struggling to survive on their own *without* line-by-line instructions like a Golem or a Skeleton needs is a big advantage, actually. In my mind it's one of the big things that makes a Warforged soldier more valuable than Undead (even a Karrnathi Undead). Keith Baker's Dragonshard talks about how Cannith trainers consciously exploited a Warforged's potential for self-willed emotions like fear, anger, hatred and loyalty to make them into better soldiers.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 08:53 PM	You can't use that kind of logic. Does it say anywhere that an Illithid can extract a gnome's brain? No, it doesn't get that specific. It has an ability, it has listed limits. Unless something falls under those listed limits, or SPECIFICALLY says that it acts differantly, then it works exactly the same. Hence the Warforged Rule of Thumb. "Unless specifically stated otherwise, the Warforged are just like any other race." It doesn't matter how nonsensical it may seem, thats the way the mechanics work. Does a Warforged have blood like everybody else? Probably not. Does that mean they're immune to a vampire or stirge's blood drain? Nope, because they are not immune to ability damage. Can a Warforged run forever? Nope, they're immune to fatigue, but without the right feats/PrC, they are not immune to non-lethal damage, so they can run until they take so much non-lethal damage they fall over unconcious. And the corresponding test to the WF Rule of Thumb: "When in doubt, replace the word 'Warforge' with 'Human' and ask it again. The answer for the Warforged will almost always be the same as it is for a Human." I take some exception to this. The point of having DMs who are human beings with brains themselves is so that they can houserule things that make sense. The real reason for this rule of thumb is that designers didn't have the time or the inclination to go through every potential gray area one by one and ask themselves whether this or that way of making Warforged different would be unbalancing. If you were to ask me, though, I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with saying Illithids can't extract from Warforged and Vampires can't drink their blood. (It's not like there aren't a dozen other ways for Illithids and Vampires to lay the smack down on Warforged, and it's not like this doesn't hamper Warforged too -- it means Warforged can't use the Bloodspikes in Magic of Eberron and other nifty things designed for Warforged.) It gets kind of crazy when you interpret this "rule of thumb" literally. After all, there's nothing in RAW that says Warforged can't have sex with Humans and get pregnant/impregnate others.
Vharuck 07-16-07, 08:59 PM	I'd actually question your latter statement. People who don't know much about fighting and war like to stereotype the soldier as someone without any will of his own who is a robotlike instrument of his superior officers, but that's not really how it works. In a combat situation, the ability to think on your feet, think on your own and make your own decisions when the time comes is precious. Unless you could make "officers" who had a hivemind-like control over all their troops -- some kind of computer or Ender's Game-like genius -- soldiers need to have half a brain and need to have their own, personal desire to survive and succeed when officers aren't there directly riding their asses. A lot of the training the military puts you through is designed to make sure you'll still be a competent soldier when there *isn't* anyone there telling you what to do. The fact that Warforged are capable of making decisions and struggling to survive on their own *without* line-by-line instructions like a Golem or a Skeleton needs is a big advantage, actually. In my mind it's one of the big things that makes a Warforged soldier more valuable than Undead (even a Karrnathi Undead). Keith Baker's Dragonshard talks about how Cannith trainers consciously exploited a Warforged's potential for self-willed emotions like fear, anger, hatred and loyalty to make them into better soldiers. You're arguing autonomy, which I agree is necessary. Heck, it's why Cannith worked so hard (a.k.a. sending more explorers to Xen'drik to loot knowledge) to make sentient soldiers. However, autonomy is a bit different from individuality. Warforged have the war-time benefit of saying "I am one unit under my own control, and need to personally decide from a list of options," but the hindrance of saying "I am Robert, and Robert cares for Mary. Robert will attempt to save Mary, despite the chances being both of us will die." That's my take, but whatever. I'd say in game terms, their autonomous decision-making is represented by Wisdom, and their individuality is represented by Charisma.
Vharuck 07-16-07, 09:00 PM	It gets kind of crazy when you interpret this "rule of thumb" literally. After all, there's nothing in RAW that says Warforged can't have sex with Humans and get pregnant/impregnate others. That's why you don't take it literally in all situations in every extreme. That's the difference between a law and a rule of thumb.
Edymnion 07-16-07, 09:10 PM	That's why you don't take it literally in all situations in every extreme. That's the difference between a law and a rule of thumb.Yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb (Yes, there was actually a wiki for it.)
Ice_117 07-16-07, 09:42 PM	It all boils down to the tastes of individual groups in the end. For one group, X can do this and Y can do that, but for another group it could be entirely different. Which is one reason why roleplaying can be good for the brain. I'm wondering: How do Warforged physically grow? They've displayed the ability to grow things like spikes, fangs and other protrusions. Maybe a better question to ask is: DO Warforged grow physically?
ArcTan 07-17-07, 01:35 AM	It all boils down to the tastes of individual groups in the end. For one group, X can do this and Y can do that, but for another group it could be entirely different. Which is one reason why roleplaying can be good for the brain. I'm wondering: How do Warforged physically grow? They've displayed the ability to grow things like spikes, fangs and other protrusions. It's one of the many mysteries surrounding the race. Some people interpret the Juggernaut's spikes as something the Juggernaut is simply physically welding to himself or having welded to himself, but since there's no actual cost listed for it it does seem as though it's some kind of mystical transformation brought on by the Juggernaut himself, maybe through a change in attitude or outlook. My own view leans to a combination of the two (I don't think just any Warforged can randomly get spikes, but I do think that a Juggernaut is doing something in particular when the spikes get added to him -- hence why the Lord of Blades could choose to have blades rather than spikes). Maybe a better question to ask is: DO Warforged grow physically? We have no indication that they do. There are very, very old Warforged in Xen'drik that seem to be around the same size as standard Warforged. (There's one very, very old Warforged who happens to be a gigantic Godzilla Warforged, but all indications are that he always was that big.)
Archangel62 07-17-07, 04:30 AM	I have to admit that it is interesting to think of a warforged brain as a crystal lattice in the head which would make at least some sense. As far as some of the other abilities given to the warforged early in this thread I do admit the ability to see magical energy and/or psionic energy is a tad overpowering for them. As for the Warforged senses there's an article in the Eberron section of this site saying that they have all five senses, sure smell and taste are the weakest but both are still present. So in other words to Illithids Warforged are essentially rock candy then?:confused:
Soltares 07-17-07, 10:23 AM	Given the preponderance of Dragonshards being used in magic items, it would be true to the setting to have Warforged contain a Dragonshard of some size at their core, as 'heart' or 'brain.' The eyes could also be Dragonshards. The downside to such an assumption would be that greedy people who kill a Warforged would be tempted to strip it apart to get the 'loot' out of it's body (which could already be an issue for those with Adamantine Body, I imagine...). To deal with that, the process of binding the Dragonshard into the Warforged could effectively denature it, fusing it to the body of the Warforged and drawing it's power out across the entire body. Pulling the eyes or 'heart' out of a Warforged would produce only a burned out blackened 'dead' Dragonshard of no mystical or gem value. Of course, choosing to use Dragonshards in the creation of Warforged leads to the notion, what *sort* of Dragonshards? Would Khyber shards increase the chances that the Warforged might be a tainted Warlock, or chaotically-aligned, or evil? As for the notion of being able to 'see magic' or 'communicate by touch,' if these assumptions are being used, they would make perfectly valid Warforged feats. If the 'crystal-lattice nervous system' is being used by your GM, he could allow your Warforged to use a Feat to enhance his own vision to perceive magical auras (detect magic as a spell-like ability as a full-round action, lasting only so long as you maintain concentration, so that the Warforged has to stand immobile while 'detecting' as he shifts his mental resources from doing stuff to just trying to analyze those elusive strands of mystical energy) or to enhance his own 'tactile sensitity' to detect magical items by touch using the same mechanic (total concentration), and communicate with another Warforged by touch. (The touch feat would include the communication option, as being able to touch an item and spend a full round determining if it is magical would be less valuable than being able to see magic in 60 ft. as a full round action.) Or you could go with a variation where the Warforged has chosen to attune himself to the 'vibrations of magic' and used a Feat to be able to take a full-round action and concentrate to 'hear' the subtle rthymns vibrations of magical resonance within a 10 ft. radius or some such thing. Either way, I'd require a Feat for any of these extra abilities, and rule that not all Warforged are made the same. Cannith experimented a lot, and just because *your* Warforged can do these things, doesn't meant that all Warforged have Dragonshard-crystal lattice nervous systems or whatnot. Even if a Warforged has some fluid in their veins or some crystal in their heads that could be extracted, no Mind Flayer or Vampire (or Stirge or Weasel, for that matter), seems likely to chomp into one. Regardless of whether or not the tactic would be effective, I can't imagine any of those creatures being predisposed to biting into a contruct of stone, wood and metal. :)
Moldiver 07-17-07, 01:12 PM	From the D&D FAQ Can a warforged have its brain extracted by a mind flayer? Yes. His brain may not look like the illithid’s normal meal, but a warforged is a living creature and thus is just as vulnerable to that dreaded attack as any human or dwarf. (That said, the Sage expects that warforged brain likely isn’t a commonly appreciated meal among mind flayers. Probably an acquired taste at best.) The same is true of other effects that might not apply to constructs (such as a vorpal weapon, which doesn’t have much effect against most constructs), unless otherwise stated in the living construct subtype.
Ice_117 07-17-07, 01:15 PM	I like the way you think, Soltares. According to canon sources, stripping a Warforged of parts does zero good. The removed pieces corrode away into nothingness before long. I think it says so in the campaign book or RoE (Races of Eberron).
Moldiver 07-17-07, 01:21 PM	Yeah, that's also in the D&D FAQ too. It doesn't list the sources but it says that it's covered in a couple of the books that stripping a warforged doesn't net you anything worthwhile.
ArcTan 07-17-07, 07:26 PM	From the D&D FAQ Can a warforged have its brain extracted by a mind flayer? Yes. His brain may not look like the illithid’s normal meal, but a warforged is a living creature and thus is just as vulnerable to that dreaded attack as any human or dwarf. (That said, the Sage expects that warforged brain likely isn’t a commonly appreciated meal among mind flayers. Probably an acquired taste at best.) The same is true of other effects that might not apply to constructs (such as a vorpal weapon, which doesn’t have much effect against most constructs), unless otherwise stated in the living construct subtype. Like I said, this is the FAQ arbitrarily making a ruling, not something that's clearly true by RAW. The Mind Flayer's ability, IIRC, simply says it works on creatures that "possess a brain", not on "all living creatures". I mean, aside from balance concerns, saying that it works on Warforged simply because Warforged are "alive" means that you should rule it also works on Treants, Gelatinous Cubes and Fire Elementals, all of which, by RAW, are "living creatures". Vorpal weapons are their own sticky situation, and frankly anything that severs anything is very poorly provided for by D&D rules (okay, so it explicitly says a Golem doesn't die when beheaded, but -- can it still *see*? Can it still breathe poison gas? Etc.) At a guess I would say that it's easiest to simply rule Warforged fall into the nebulous category of "creatures who die when their heads are cut off" -- which is *not* synonymous with "living creatures" (Vampires disprove this on one side of the fence, Hydras on the other) -- but say this doesn't prove Warforged have brains, any more than the fact that Warforged tend to die if you drive a giant metal spike all the way through their torso proves they have hearts.
LoneStranger 07-17-07, 07:59 PM	So in other words to Illithids Warforged are essentially rock candy then?:confused: From Moldiver's post: From the D&D FAQ Can a warforged have its brain extracted by a mind flayer? Yes. His brain may not look like the illithid’s normal meal, but a warforged is a living creature and thus is just as vulnerable to that dreaded attack as any human or dwarf. (That said, the Sage expects that warforged brain likely isn’t a commonly appreciated meal among mind flayers. Probably an acquired taste at best.) The same is true of other effects that might not apply to constructs (such as a vorpal weapon, which doesn’t have much effect against most constructs), unless otherwise stated in the living construct subtype. So it seems the answer is yes. ;)
Ice_117 07-17-07, 10:14 PM	"Warforged? No, not for me. Too gritty." --Unknown Mind Flayer Taste matters LOL.
ArcTan 07-17-07, 11:16 PM	From Moldiver's post: From the D&D FAQ Can a warforged have its brain extracted by a mind flayer? Yes. His brain may not look like the illithid’s normal meal, but a warforged is a living creature and thus is just as vulnerable to that dreaded attack as any human or dwarf. (That said, the Sage expects that warforged brain likely isn’t a commonly appreciated meal among mind flayers. Probably an acquired taste at best.) The same is true of other effects that might not apply to constructs (such as a vorpal weapon, which doesn’t have much effect against most constructs), unless otherwise stated in the living construct subtype. So it seems the answer is yes. ;) Again, the FAQ is not any kind of authority in things like this.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-18-07, 12:55 AM	I'd say that, if warforged have a discreat brain, it's a mass of wooden tendrils and gemstones. That said, I'd say an Illithid can EXTRACT a warforged's brain killing them, but probably not eat it, anymore than you could roast a warforged's leg and eat it. But extract it, yes certainly. Though I might make a fortification roll as if it were a critical hit, because their skull analog is metal rather than bone.
okaynowa 07-18-07, 11:11 AM	Reading this thread, I suddenly had this vision of the warforged as Jackson-Pollock-painting on the inside. That is, the Cannith artificers knew with certainty what went into a warforged, but could only predict in general terms where the parts would end up. This image led me to two further ideas: 1. Every time an artificer or magewright goes to "repair" a warforged, he discovers a new layout. Even in the same warforged, the placement of materials shifts over time, so that the blue crystal close to the "heart" last time has now shifted back into the "kidney" region, and the fibrous bundle in the left bicep that was brown last time now has more green in it. 2. "Repairing" a warforged is more like restoring a painting. Or, given the changing nature of their insides, more like maintaining a grafitti mural, or a sand castle. The restorer doesn't look inside the wounded warforged and say, "Oh, your phalangeal actuator slipped out of the cuff-- let me pop a new one on." The restorer looks inside the warforged and says, "This tubey bit here seems to have snapped from this crystal bit there. The tube won't stretch any more, but I think I can cap it with a ceramic plug." Every procedure is about restoring harmony to the whole. The warforged and/or artificer know the procedure is done not when everything's up to spec, but when everything looks and feels "just right." This is mostly just flavor intended to make the warforged less "robotic" and more "magical what the hell are you" (and maybe make magewrights look a little artsy). In game terms, though, it does explain how a warforged can be healed by any of six different Craft skills, and it removes the question of spare parts, since anything the crafter has on hand that fits (both physically and conceptually) becomes a spare part. But, that's just me. The player of the warforged character in our campaign is far more concerned about the spikes on the outside than the art on the inside. :)
Rekko 07-18-07, 12:13 PM	When a warforged dies, their final messenger detach from their torso and fly away. I imagine this final messenger as the Golden Snitch in Harry Potter. Maybe the final messenger is the magical/psionical energic core animating the warforged. Therefore, they may act as brain and heart to the Warforged. Moreover, the final messenger may be a crystaline/jewel/metallic orb. However it is written that not all warforged has final messengers and that the final messenger draws power from the warforged. Maybe some modifications could be applied here to fit the idea of a warforged brain/heart/core. Rekko
ArcTan 07-18-07, 02:41 PM	When a warforged dies, their final messenger detach from their torso and fly away. I imagine this final messenger as the Golden Snitch in Harry Potter. Maybe the final messenger is the magical/psionical energic core animating the warforged. Therefore, they may act as brain and heart to the Warforged. Moreover, the final messenger may be a crystaline/jewel/metallic orb. However it is written that not all warforged has final messengers and that the final messenger draws power from the warforged. Maybe some modifications could be applied here to fit the idea of a warforged brain/heart/core. Rekko A final messenger not only isn't something all Warforged have, it's a magic item you have to *make* (at considerable expense) and then attach to the Warforged. It's pretty clearly not an inherent part of the Warforged. If I were to make up flavor about a Warforged "brain", I'd say the final messenger is some kind of parasitic attachment on the brain that downloads the brain's stored contents and flies away. It isn't the Warforged's brain itself -- all it contains is some of the Warforged's memories. It's not conscious and you can't use it to bring back the Warforged as a person. Interestingly, there's an artifact circlet in the ECS that *does* contain a Warforged consciousness and let the consciousness take over another Warforged body. The fact that it can contain any Warforged mind at all simply by putting it on a new Warforged suggests to me that, in fact, Warforged minds are all "software" and that there *isn't* any hardware inside the Warforged that's necessary for the Warforged's consciousness and individuality.
ArcTan 07-18-07, 02:44 PM	Reading this thread, I suddenly had this vision of the warforged as Jackson-Pollock-painting on the inside. That is, the Cannith artificers knew with certainty what went into a warforged, but could only predict in general terms where the parts would end up. This image led me to two further ideas: 1. Every time an artificer or magewright goes to "repair" a warforged, he discovers a new layout. Even in the same warforged, the placement of materials shifts over time, so that the blue crystal close to the "heart" last time has now shifted back into the "kidney" region, and the fibrous bundle in the left bicep that was brown last time now has more green in it. 2. "Repairing" a warforged is more like restoring a painting. Or, given the changing nature of their insides, more like maintaining a grafitti mural, or a sand castle. The restorer doesn't look inside the wounded warforged and say, "Oh, your phalangeal actuator slipped out of the cuff-- let me pop a new one on." The restorer looks inside the warforged and says, "This tubey bit here seems to have snapped from this crystal bit there. The tube won't stretch any more, but I think I can cap it with a ceramic plug." Every procedure is about restoring harmony to the whole. The warforged and/or artificer know the procedure is done not when everything's up to spec, but when everything looks and feels "just right." This is mostly just flavor intended to make the warforged less "robotic" and more "magical what the hell are you" (and maybe make magewrights look a little artsy). In game terms, though, it does explain how a warforged can be healed by any of six different Craft skills, and it removes the question of spare parts, since anything the crafter has on hand that fits (both physically and conceptually) becomes a spare part. But, that's just me. The player of the warforged character in our campaign is far more concerned about the spikes on the outside than the art on the inside. :) This idea, in fact, coincides very naturally with the Warforged religion of the Becoming God (that perfection comes about as a random gestalt developed from arranging dead matter in arbitrary yet "beautiful" or "elegant" order, and that this order will spontaneously bring about life, sentience and in the end divinity).
LoneStranger 07-18-07, 07:54 PM	...suggests to me that, in fact, Warforged minds are all "software" and that there *isn't* any hardware inside the Warforged that's necessary for the Warforged's consciousness and individuality. Just as long as my current Eberron character doesn't have to upgrade to Vista, I'll be ok with that train of thought. ;)
Symar 07-18-07, 08:13 PM	Just as long as my current Eberron character doesn't have to upgrade to Vista, I'll be ok with that train of thought. ;) Is it made by House Microsoft, led by Bill d'Gates? Mark of Programming, anyone?
Ice_117 07-18-07, 09:03 PM	Is it made by House Microsoft, led by Bill d'Gates? LOL. The reason crystals made sense to me was that the Warforged have so much in common with them. They're made of both living an nonliving components while crystals are some of, perhaps the only, mineral that grows organically. The correlation made sense to me.
Concerto 07-18-07, 09:17 PM	Er, when parts of a Human's brain get severed and interrupted, the Human dies, or suffers irreversible brain damage. Brains (or any organ whose job it is to be the processor for things as complex as sentient consciousness) are delicate. The fact that Warforged go inert and can, upon being repaired, recover with no problems is actually an argument that a Warforged *doesn't* have an organ analogous to the brain -- that their consciousness is wholly spiritual or magical or some sort of external thing controlling their body. Otherwise it *wouldn't* make sense -- or, at least, make less sense -- that a Warforged body can just go dead for thousands of years and then suddenly be reactivated, with the consciousness returning at full acuity with no degradation or sense of time passing. Well, I don't understand your argument. Humans have hearts and lungs and such. When the brain is gone there is nothing controll the other organs and everything just dies. When everything dies, it just kind of degrades and rots away.You can't bring back to life mortified flesh ((Except for magic)) because the biological structure is gone. Warforged however don't seem to have other organs such as lungs or hearts,that die once they go inert. Since the most flesh like part of warforged seems to be magical wood ((Isn't there some sort of wood that does die even after its cut?)) , it isn't like the body will just rot away ((Although it might after thousands of years or if it was in a swamp with termites...)). The inanimate body of a warforged doesn't need something to pump the blood or breath to maintain the body like the human body does, nor does the brain seemingly need blood. So it doesn't seem to be that illogical to say that a warforged do have brains. When one goes inert, I don't think of it like death, but rather broken circuits. Break enough "circuits" in a warforged and the brain can't communicate with the rest of the body and just shuts down. But the body doesn't deteriorate, and as soon at the "circuits" are put back, the brain can communicate with the rest of the body and the warforged just kind of wakes up.
Alex_ 07-18-07, 09:21 PM	LOL. The reason crystals made sense to me was that the Warforged have so much in common with them. They're made of both living an nonliving components while crystals are some of, perhaps the only, mineral that grows organically. To say crystals "grow", let alone in an "organic" sense is kind of a misnomer though. Crystals results when the particles of a substance begins losing energy and fixing themselves in a rigid organization. It's entropy in action. Where as the multiplication of cells would be extropy; in many ways it's conceptual opposite. It's taking things that usually would be sitting by themselves turning into crystals and lower energy states, and doing the opposite. I think a better understanding of Warforged consciousness in D&D cosmology (which is in many ways different and inconsequential to our own) is to look at other animated things, and even other living creatures. It's the "soul" or animating energy that makes the creature tick, not their brain, or their heart, or anything else. It's not only possible to inflict physical damage, but also mental and spiritual damage, and to even separate the physical from the ethereal, leaving both perfectly intact.
yossarius 07-18-07, 11:05 PM	I'd say that, if warforged have a discreat brain, it's a mass of wooden tendrils and gemstones. That said, I'd say an Illithid can EXTRACT a warforged's brain killing them, but probably not eat it, anymore than you could roast a warforged's leg and eat it. But extract it, yes certainly. Though I might make a fortification roll as if it were a critical hit, because their skull analog is metal rather than bone. Remember, illithids do not gain sustenance from eating brains; they gain it from absorbing the intelligence of their victim. I don't think it's too hard to imagine that an illithid could psionically extract a warforged's intelligence from it's brain, once it's been pulled out of the warforged in question. The illithid doesn't "eat" the brain, but the warforged isn't immune to the effect.
ArcTan 07-19-07, 08:00 PM	Well, I don't understand your argument. Humans have hearts and lungs and such. When the brain is gone there is nothing controll the other organs and everything just dies. When everything dies, it just kind of degrades and rots away.You can't bring back to life mortified flesh ((Except for magic)) because the biological structure is gone. Warforged however don't seem to have other organs such as lungs or hearts,that die once they go inert. Since the most flesh like part of warforged seems to be magical wood ((Isn't there some sort of wood that does die even after its cut?)) , it isn't like the body will just rot away ((Although it might after thousands of years or if it was in a swamp with termites...)). The inanimate body of a warforged doesn't need something to pump the blood or breath to maintain the body like the human body does, nor does the brain seemingly need blood. So it doesn't seem to be that illogical to say that a warforged do have brains. When one goes inert, I don't think of it like death, but rather broken circuits. Break enough "circuits" in a warforged and the brain can't communicate with the rest of the body and just shuts down. But the body doesn't deteriorate, and as soon at the "circuits" are put back, the brain can communicate with the rest of the body and the warforged just kind of wakes up. My argument is about the brain itself deteriorating, not the rest of the body. A human brain can't last forever without developing problems and malfunctions -- senile dementia, Alzheimer's disease, etc. Even people without Alzheimer's notice a decrease in reaction time and certain cognitive functions (like complex arithmetic) as they get older. The fact that Warforged can lie dormant for thousands of years -- notably, from damage *not* to the "brain" area, wherever it is, but just plain damage -- and then be returned instantly to normal upon being repaired says to me that the part of the Warforged that thinks can't be in the body.
ArcTan 07-19-07, 08:03 PM	To say crystals "grow", let alone in an "organic" sense is kind of a misnomer though. Crystals results when the particles of a substance begins losing energy and fixing themselves in a rigid organization. It's entropy in action. Where as the multiplication of cells would be extropy; in many ways it's conceptual opposite. It's taking things that usually would be sitting by themselves turning into crystals and lower energy states, and doing the opposite. While it's all a bit metaphysical and pseudoscientific and therefore arbitrary, it's important to note that the New Age crystalfreak stuff that inspired crystals' relationship to psionics is based on a similar principle. Unlike the human body or things made by human intention, crystals are truly "natural" -- they are orderly patterns that emerge as the result of entropy, the simple ground state that molecules return to when they cool down. As such they represent the eternal and unchanging, and therefore metaphysically represent the fundamental unchanging core of the mind -- or "soul" -- that isn't dependent on the gross, decaying, physical body the mind is embedded in (that requires constant expenditure of energy to maintain), which is why crystals have a symbolic link with psionics (which is the concept of mind transcending body).
Elderich 07-23-07, 05:56 PM	"Warforged? No, not for me. Too gritty." --Unknown Mind Flayer Taste matters LOL.It's not the taste, it's the texture....
LoneStranger 07-23-07, 07:27 PM	Nah, it's both really.