Warforged Juggernaut and Geas/Quest [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warforged Juggernaut and Geas/Quest [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AndrewTater
10-08-07, 01:03 AM So, my character was placed under a geas/quest spell while he was only at his first Juggernaut level. He just gained his third level and I was wondering, does his immunity to mind-affecting spells void the geas? Or is it still technically on me, but I avoid the damage I take?

There are two ways to go with this:
1. A ring of regeneration doesn't heal wounds already taken, so his immunity to such effects shouldn't apply to things already cast on me.

2. A protection from elements (fire) spell could resist burning me if i am caught amidst a tavern on fire, so I should be able to resist what effects will happen.

I note that I have not yet triggered the negative effects from the spell.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard
10-08-07, 01:32 AM Initially, I thought the spell should be removed as soon as you gained the second level. However...

Spell Immunity (Ex): A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.

Spell Resistance is checked when the spell is cast, not when later effects (e. g. damage from geas/quest) is applied. If you later gain spell resistance, nothing implies that it removes or suppresses spells already active on you.

So, I'd say RAW will leave the spell in effect and working. You are still a viable target for the spell and could theoretically still be affected by it, if a creature beat your unbeatable spell resistance. And here, exactly this has happened, as you didn't have this unbeatable spell resistance at the time of the casting.
Tough luck, though. :-(
Edymnion
10-08-07, 08:45 PM While it won't help you right now, there is a limited duration for geas/quest, so it will wear off, and you won't be able to be hit with it again.
R4za
10-08-07, 10:18 PM Initially, I thought the spell should be removed as soon as you gained the second level. However...

Spell Resistance is checked when the spell is cast, not when later effects (e. g. damage from geas/quest) is applied. If you later gain spell resistance, nothing implies that it removes or suppresses spells already active on you.

So, I'd say RAW will leave the spell in effect and working. You are still a viable target for the spell and could theoretically still be affected by it, if a creature beat your unbeatable spell resistance. And here, exactly this has happened, as you didn't have this unbeatable spell resistance at the time of the casting.
Tough luck, though. :-(
The Warforged Juggernaut's immunity to mind affecting spells and abilities isn't 'Spell Immunity (Ex)', though. That's a single, specific special property that just happens to sound a lot like it. The WJN's ability is a lower-case immunity and works as the word suggests, by leaving the character immune, active immediately.
Cifer
10-09-07, 11:36 AM I'd say the geas just got kicked or rather permanently suppressed - it may be still active, but it can't force you to do anything anymore and it can't punish you for not doing it.
Kreistor2
10-09-07, 12:24 PM I'd say the geas just got kicked or rather permanently suppressed - it may be still active, but it can't force you to do anything anymore and it can't punish you for not doing it.

No, that's not correct. Edy's interpretation is correct. If you gain Spell Resistance, you don't immediately get SR checks against spells currently active on you. Same with Immunity. If the spell is already affecting you, the Immunity does not remove the effect.
Edymnion
10-09-07, 01:08 PM For example, lets say you have an item that gives you spell resistance.
The Cleric casts Bull's Strength on you, and overcomes your SR. Would you rule that the character has to make a SR check every round to see if he squashes that pesky magical effect?

You have to remember that you can't pick and choose. If it works in one situation, then it should work in all similar situations. If you rule that gaining spell resistance would cancel out the gaeas, then you also have to rule that gaining spell resistance would cancel out existing buffs as well.
Cifer
10-09-07, 01:50 PM I wouldn't liken it to Spell resistance as much as e.g. Protection from Evil, which suspends the working of certain spells (funnily, Geas would be among them). In the same way, if you used Mind Blank, I'd say the Bard's Song and the Cleric's Bless stop affecting you.

I know this is a dangerous thing to do, but I'd like to bring up the Atavist from... RoE. Oh well, it's kinda from the Kalashtar part of the book so I might not get shot instantly. This class gets a Mind Blank effect and it explicitly mentions you're unable to benefit from the Mind Link ability when it's on.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard
10-09-07, 02:15 PM But it isn't Protection from Evil. PrE is a very specific effect that shouldn't be mistaken for a general rule how immunties work.

The immunity gained by WFJ is either
- immunity as in "Spell Immunity" or
- immunity as in "Construct".

The first would work as spell resistance, i. e. not end the spell. The phrase "gains immunity to all mind-affecting spells" points in that direction, I think.

The other way to read it is, I suppose, indicated by the phrase "a warforged juggernaut gains the following construct features" and the immunity not only to spells, but also to other effects (e. g. morale effects).
Even if you choose this interpretation, there are again two possible conclusions what this actually means:
- One could argue that constructs are not viable targets for mind-affecting spells (a question usually not necessary to answer, as those require LIVING targets anyway. In Eberron however...). Then, the ability would end the effect, as the WF wouldn't be a viable target anymore (just as bull's strength ends when you die).
- Constructs are just "immune" to spells as in "spell immunity (ex)". Then, it would be a kind of super-spell-resistance again.

There are arguments for all three interpretations, but not for an effect similar to "Protection from Evil".

After reading the WFJ description myself, I'd say the second way might be better. It's unclear, however, and a GM wouldn't be wrong to say it's a "spell immunity" or that the immunity of constructs actually IS an example of "spell immunity".
The same problem arises with his other immunties as well, by the way: Is ability damage/drain immediately healed with 5th level? *chuckle* Is finger of death reversed once he reaches 4th?

Okay, the latter obviously not, but the idea is nice, I think.
"You all get 3.200 XP for this encounter. I'm sorry, Dave, that gets you to 11th level, but unfortunately you're gonna lose it again when you are raised."
"WOHOO! Immune to death! I get up on my feet and claim my share of the loot!"
Cifer
10-09-07, 02:42 PM The same problem arises with his other immunties as well, by the way: Is ability damage/drain immediately healed with 5th level? *chuckle* Is finger of death reversed once he reaches 4th?
I'd draw the line at the duration of effects: Anything instantaneous stays as it is, everything else is instantly removed.
Kreistor2
10-09-07, 02:44 PM JsEW, DnD isn't MtG. You only check for valid targetting at the time of casting. If you cast something that makes you an invalid target for a spell already in place, that doesn't remove the effect, because you were a valid target at the time of casting.
Tordak
10-09-07, 02:53 PM I would propose to look at it this way. Take lesser geas for exemple. It affects only creatures of 7 HD or lower. If a 7th level character had a geas/quest cast on him and later gained a level would the effect stop? Personnaly I believe it would stop, since the character is now too 'strong' for the magic. That's the way magic works in D&D, the character has gained enough resistance through personal development to stymie the spell. However, if someone would come up with a reason why the spell would still work, I could probably agree and it would likely be as good a reason as mine.

Nevertheless, by the same token, I think the geas spell would stop working on the warforged juggernaut because is mind has now become too alien to that kind of magic or because he lost the physiological characteristics that define the mind (now we could probably debate about what is a 'mind', but the point is the WJN has lost is :D ).
Just_some_Evil_Wizard
10-10-07, 01:10 PM JsEW, DnD isn't MtG. You only check for valid targetting at the time of casting. If you cast something that makes you an invalid target for a spell already in place, that doesn't remove the effect, because you were a valid target at the time of casting.

Hm... That appears to be correct - something learnt today, thank you!

That means, there remains little doubt about the original question - sadly, the geas stays in place.
R4za
10-10-07, 05:32 PM I still disagree. Immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects doesn't make him an 'invalid target'. Geas's targetting requirement is "One living creature with X or less hit dice", and despite the warforged juggernaut's construct properties theme, they never stop being a living creature. The spell targets just fine, and he could even be targetted by further Geas spells after gaining immunity to mind affecting spells. You can target a force dragon with magic missile, too, it's just not going to do anything.

The warforged's immunity isn't Spell Immunity and it isn't becoming an invalid target. It's just a single, non-standardised class feature that grants immunity (as the word) to particular effects. And that means such effects will no longer work on him.
Cifer
10-10-07, 06:51 PM You only check for valid targetting at the time of casting. If you cast something that makes you an invalid target for a spell already in place, that doesn't remove the effect, because you were a valid target at the time of casting.
Hey, now that's cool. So I, as a warforged, can polymorph (or use another form of shapeshifting) into a human, get Enlarge Person-ed, drop the polymorph and stay large? Funny...
However, I doubt that is the case. IMO, when you stop being a legal target for something, it stops affecting you.
Kreistor2
10-10-07, 07:26 PM However, I doubt that is the case.

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Don't see anything in there about something changing the nature of a pretargetted spell invalidating that spell.

As I said before, it's MtG that invalidates an effect if the target becomes invalid. There is no such rule in DnD.

Hey, now that's cool. So I, as a warforged, can polymorph (or use another form of shapeshifting) into a human, get Enlarge Person-ed, drop the polymorph and stay large? Funny...
However, I doubt that is the case. IMO, when you stop being a legal target for something, it stops affecting you.

Hrrmmm... I'm not sure that works out because of the text in Enlarge person. It specifically mentions it increases the size of 'a humanoid creature' in the text, not jsut on the 'Target' line. That one spell may not have an effect on a Warforged using it this way. The line in question doesn't necessarily mean it checks constantly, but I could see a DM interpreting it that way.

I've always solved this problem with the 'Enlarge Living Construct' spell, anyway. After all, what else are the Research rules for, if not to modify limited target spells like that?
Tordak
10-11-07, 08:11 AM I side with R4za and Cifer. A WJN does not become a construct, but does gain immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects and the spell would stop any ongoing mind-affecting effects on him. If the spell duration was instantaneous, it would be a different matter, but it has a duration. It's like being in a burning house and gaining all of a sudden immunity to fire : even if the fire started before, it wouldn't affect you anymore.

Another exemple would be a shifter barbarian with the shifter stamina feat (it's the one that makes you immune to non lethal and fatigue in case I got the name wrong). If he is raging and shifting, and the raging ends first, he won't be fatigue, but when the shifting ends, if the fatigue effect is still applicable, he will be. Immunity applies to ongoing effects, and I think it goes for spells too.

Polymorph changes your type and subtype to match your new form, so if a warforger polymorphed into a human and someone casts enlarge person on him, it would work, altough I really don't know what to say about changing back to warforged. I guess coming up with enlarge living construct is a sound idea.
R4za
10-11-07, 10:26 AM Tordak's got the point I forgot to make. Effect durations overlap with periods of immunity, they just don't function during them.
AndrewTater
10-13-07, 02:54 AM On page 298 of the DMG it states that you can voluntarily allow spells to pass through spell resistance. So gaining that wouldn't prevent, say, bull's strength from working.

Also, the PHB never says how lost Geas lasts, but Lesser Geas lasts 1 day/level if given an ambiguous task. We triggered the spell by signing a contract, and the biggest point in it was "Defend Breland," as well as "Destroy [ambiguous cult name] so that (damn royal politicians). Does that mean that the standard Geas only lasts 1 day/level?
Egres
10-13-07, 11:04 AM From the FAQ:

A spell only checks to see if you are a legal target
when it is cast. If you become an illegal target later (such as via
the polymorph spell), the spell remains in effect.
Vikjunk
10-13-07, 02:10 PM There is nothing in the rules that say that immunity makes a creature an invalid target. All it does is make you unaffected by the effects. Like if a Warforged is hit by a Warlock’s Noxious Blast ability doesn’t mean that he doesn’t take the damage from the ability just that he isn’t affected by the nausea effect of it.

So while the Warforged Juggernaut still has the Geas spell on him he would be unaffected by the effects of the spell.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard
10-14-07, 02:57 AM Ehm... Guys... The "not being a valid target"-thing has been clarified by Kreistor several posts ago - the WF remains a valid target, and even if he wouldn't,there would be no consequences.

The rule about how "spell immunity" works, THAT's the relevant point here. And leads to WF still being effected by the spell.
Cifer
10-14-07, 10:19 AM The rule about how "spell immunity" works, THAT's the relevant point here. And leads to WF still being effected by the spell.
I doubt that Spell Immnunity is what is gained by the Juggernaut. That sounds more like the Golem ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm), especially since both mention that they only affect stuff that spell resistance applies to.
Further, Spell Immnunity specifies it only applies against Spells and Spell-likes, while the Juggernaut ability works against all mind-affecting effects.
Tordak
10-15-07, 09:59 AM Cifer is correct, the WJN becomes immune to mind-affecting effects, not just spells and spell-likes. Legal target was the only issue I think. Egres post also clarify the legal target problem, I checked the FAQ too. If that's the current/correct rule, the WJN is still affected. But if it's really about spell immunity, then JSEW you are correct, gainning spell resistance, whether it's a numbered SR or spell immunity, changes nothing to spells already cast.

Well, in both cases the WJN is still affected.
Tordak
10-15-07, 11:00 AM On page 298 of the DMG it states that you can voluntarily allow spells to pass through spell resistance. So gaining that wouldn't prevent, say, bull's strength from working.

Also, the PHB never says how lost Geas lasts, but Lesser Geas lasts 1 day/level if given an ambiguous task. We triggered the spell by signing a contract, and the biggest point in it was "Defend Breland," as well as "Destroy [ambiguous cult name] so that (damn royal politicians). Does that mean that the standard Geas only lasts 1 day/level?

Defend Brelan is an ambiguous request because Defend Brelan could be against any threats, in any and many kind of ways, not clear about what you defend it against (is it physical enemies, poverty, defend Brelan values, etc...), it covers an area to large in time and duties. So lesser geas last only last 1 day/level in that case (if cast as the basic spell). However,this is of course subject to interpretation. Also, contracting the geas through signing a contract if you did not know there was a geas attached to it doesn't make you willing (you must be aware a spell is being cast on you to volontarily lower your resistance; anything else is not volonteering, of course if you are under the influence of spell that forces certain course of action on you then it's different).

As for regular Geas, it appears it has the same duration, since it states 'as lesser geas' and does not specify a duration in the text. That's how it usually works for spells like 'greater something', it's the same unless there's a change in the description.
Egres
10-29-07, 07:37 AM If an acquired immunity would stop an ongoing effect, a Rugamuffyn (sp ?)(MM2) could not control its hosts.
Occams_Razor
10-31-07, 09:51 PM I don't know, I think it's obvious that the spell is still in effect upon the WJN, as he is not invalidated as a target, but I would rule that if indeed Geas is a mind-affecting spell, it can't impact the character any longer. It's still there, and supposing somehow he lost his immunity down the road, it would still be able to affect him, but I just feel like the verisimilitude takes a hit when you rule "No, no, no mind-affecting stuff except the Geas, cuz it was already there." If they can't affect him, they shouldn't affect him.

My 2cp.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AndrewTater 10-08-07, 01:03 AM	So, my character was placed under a geas/quest spell while he was only at his first Juggernaut level. He just gained his third level and I was wondering, does his immunity to mind-affecting spells void the geas? Or is it still technically on me, but I avoid the damage I take? There are two ways to go with this: 1. A ring of regeneration doesn't heal wounds already taken, so his immunity to such effects shouldn't apply to things already cast on me. 2. A protection from elements (fire) spell could resist burning me if i am caught amidst a tavern on fire, so I should be able to resist what effects will happen. I note that I have not yet triggered the negative effects from the spell.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-08-07, 01:32 AM	Initially, I thought the spell should be removed as soon as you gained the second level. However... Spell Immunity (Ex): A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity. Spell Resistance is checked when the spell is cast, not when later effects (e. g. damage from geas/quest) is applied. If you later gain spell resistance, nothing implies that it removes or suppresses spells already active on you. So, I'd say RAW will leave the spell in effect and working. You are still a viable target for the spell and could theoretically still be affected by it, if a creature beat your unbeatable spell resistance. And here, exactly this has happened, as you didn't have this unbeatable spell resistance at the time of the casting. Tough luck, though. :-(
Edymnion 10-08-07, 08:45 PM	While it won't help you right now, there is a limited duration for geas/quest, so it will wear off, and you won't be able to be hit with it again.
R4za 10-08-07, 10:18 PM	Initially, I thought the spell should be removed as soon as you gained the second level. However... Spell Resistance is checked when the spell is cast, not when later effects (e. g. damage from geas/quest) is applied. If you later gain spell resistance, nothing implies that it removes or suppresses spells already active on you. So, I'd say RAW will leave the spell in effect and working. You are still a viable target for the spell and could theoretically still be affected by it, if a creature beat your unbeatable spell resistance. And here, exactly this has happened, as you didn't have this unbeatable spell resistance at the time of the casting. Tough luck, though. :-( The Warforged Juggernaut's immunity to mind affecting spells and abilities isn't 'Spell Immunity (Ex)', though. That's a single, specific special property that just happens to sound a lot like it. The WJN's ability is a lower-case immunity and works as the word suggests, by leaving the character immune, active immediately.
Cifer 10-09-07, 11:36 AM	I'd say the geas just got kicked or rather permanently suppressed - it may be still active, but it can't force you to do anything anymore and it can't punish you for not doing it.
Kreistor2 10-09-07, 12:24 PM	I'd say the geas just got kicked or rather permanently suppressed - it may be still active, but it can't force you to do anything anymore and it can't punish you for not doing it. No, that's not correct. Edy's interpretation is correct. If you gain Spell Resistance, you don't immediately get SR checks against spells currently active on you. Same with Immunity. If the spell is already affecting you, the Immunity does not remove the effect.
Edymnion 10-09-07, 01:08 PM	For example, lets say you have an item that gives you spell resistance. The Cleric casts Bull's Strength on you, and overcomes your SR. Would you rule that the character has to make a SR check every round to see if he squashes that pesky magical effect? You have to remember that you can't pick and choose. If it works in one situation, then it should work in all similar situations. If you rule that gaining spell resistance would cancel out the gaeas, then you also have to rule that gaining spell resistance would cancel out existing buffs as well.
Cifer 10-09-07, 01:50 PM	I wouldn't liken it to Spell resistance as much as e.g. Protection from Evil, which suspends the working of certain spells (funnily, Geas would be among them). In the same way, if you used Mind Blank, I'd say the Bard's Song and the Cleric's Bless stop affecting you. I know this is a dangerous thing to do, but I'd like to bring up the Atavist from... RoE. Oh well, it's kinda from the Kalashtar part of the book so I might not get shot instantly. This class gets a Mind Blank effect and it explicitly mentions you're unable to benefit from the Mind Link ability when it's on.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-09-07, 02:15 PM	But it isn't Protection from Evil. PrE is a very specific effect that shouldn't be mistaken for a general rule how immunties work. The immunity gained by WFJ is either - immunity as in "Spell Immunity" or - immunity as in "Construct". The first would work as spell resistance, i. e. not end the spell. The phrase "gains immunity to all mind-affecting spells" points in that direction, I think. The other way to read it is, I suppose, indicated by the phrase "a warforged juggernaut gains the following construct features" and the immunity not only to spells, but also to other effects (e. g. morale effects). Even if you choose this interpretation, there are again two possible conclusions what this actually means: - One could argue that constructs are not viable targets for mind-affecting spells (a question usually not necessary to answer, as those require LIVING targets anyway. In Eberron however...). Then, the ability would end the effect, as the WF wouldn't be a viable target anymore (just as bull's strength ends when you die). - Constructs are just "immune" to spells as in "spell immunity (ex)". Then, it would be a kind of super-spell-resistance again. There are arguments for all three interpretations, but not for an effect similar to "Protection from Evil". After reading the WFJ description myself, I'd say the second way might be better. It's unclear, however, and a GM wouldn't be wrong to say it's a "spell immunity" or that the immunity of constructs actually IS an example of "spell immunity". The same problem arises with his other immunties as well, by the way: Is ability damage/drain immediately healed with 5th level? chuckle Is finger of death reversed once he reaches 4th? Okay, the latter obviously not, but the idea is nice, I think. "You all get 3.200 XP for this encounter. I'm sorry, Dave, that gets you to 11th level, but unfortunately you're gonna lose it again when you are raised." "WOHOO! Immune to death! I get up on my feet and claim my share of the loot!"
Cifer 10-09-07, 02:42 PM	The same problem arises with his other immunties as well, by the way: Is ability damage/drain immediately healed with 5th level? chuckle Is finger of death reversed once he reaches 4th? I'd draw the line at the duration of effects: Anything instantaneous stays as it is, everything else is instantly removed.
Kreistor2 10-09-07, 02:44 PM	JsEW, DnD isn't MtG. You only check for valid targetting at the time of casting. If you cast something that makes you an invalid target for a spell already in place, that doesn't remove the effect, because you were a valid target at the time of casting.
Tordak 10-09-07, 02:53 PM	I would propose to look at it this way. Take lesser geas for exemple. It affects only creatures of 7 HD or lower. If a 7th level character had a geas/quest cast on him and later gained a level would the effect stop? Personnaly I believe it would stop, since the character is now too 'strong' for the magic. That's the way magic works in D&D, the character has gained enough resistance through personal development to stymie the spell. However, if someone would come up with a reason why the spell would still work, I could probably agree and it would likely be as good a reason as mine. Nevertheless, by the same token, I think the geas spell would stop working on the warforged juggernaut because is mind has now become too alien to that kind of magic or because he lost the physiological characteristics that define the mind (now we could probably debate about what is a 'mind', but the point is the WJN has lost is :D ).
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-10-07, 01:10 PM	JsEW, DnD isn't MtG. You only check for valid targetting at the time of casting. If you cast something that makes you an invalid target for a spell already in place, that doesn't remove the effect, because you were a valid target at the time of casting. Hm... That appears to be correct - something learnt today, thank you! That means, there remains little doubt about the original question - sadly, the geas stays in place.
R4za 10-10-07, 05:32 PM	I still disagree. Immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects doesn't make him an 'invalid target'. Geas's targetting requirement is "One living creature with X or less hit dice", and despite the warforged juggernaut's construct properties theme, they never stop being a living creature. The spell targets just fine, and he could even be targetted by further Geas spells after gaining immunity to mind affecting spells. You can target a force dragon with magic missile, too, it's just not going to do anything. The warforged's immunity isn't Spell Immunity and it isn't becoming an invalid target. It's just a single, non-standardised class feature that grants immunity (as the word) to particular effects. And that means such effects will no longer work on him.
Cifer 10-10-07, 06:51 PM	You only check for valid targetting at the time of casting. If you cast something that makes you an invalid target for a spell already in place, that doesn't remove the effect, because you were a valid target at the time of casting. Hey, now that's cool. So I, as a warforged, can polymorph (or use another form of shapeshifting) into a human, get Enlarge Person-ed, drop the polymorph and stay large? Funny... However, I doubt that is the case. IMO, when you stop being a legal target for something, it stops affecting you.
Kreistor2 10-10-07, 07:26 PM	However, I doubt that is the case. Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells. Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Don't see anything in there about something changing the nature of a pretargetted spell invalidating that spell. As I said before, it's MtG that invalidates an effect if the target becomes invalid. There is no such rule in DnD. Hey, now that's cool. So I, as a warforged, can polymorph (or use another form of shapeshifting) into a human, get Enlarge Person-ed, drop the polymorph and stay large? Funny... However, I doubt that is the case. IMO, when you stop being a legal target for something, it stops affecting you. Hrrmmm... I'm not sure that works out because of the text in Enlarge person. It specifically mentions it increases the size of 'a humanoid creature' in the text, not jsut on the 'Target' line. That one spell may not have an effect on a Warforged using it this way. The line in question doesn't necessarily mean it checks constantly, but I could see a DM interpreting it that way. I've always solved this problem with the 'Enlarge Living Construct' spell, anyway. After all, what else are the Research rules for, if not to modify limited target spells like that?
Tordak 10-11-07, 08:11 AM	I side with R4za and Cifer. A WJN does not become a construct, but does gain immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects and the spell would stop any ongoing mind-affecting effects on him. If the spell duration was instantaneous, it would be a different matter, but it has a duration. It's like being in a burning house and gaining all of a sudden immunity to fire : even if the fire started before, it wouldn't affect you anymore. Another exemple would be a shifter barbarian with the shifter stamina feat (it's the one that makes you immune to non lethal and fatigue in case I got the name wrong). If he is raging and shifting, and the raging ends first, he won't be fatigue, but when the shifting ends, if the fatigue effect is still applicable, he will be. Immunity applies to ongoing effects, and I think it goes for spells too. Polymorph changes your type and subtype to match your new form, so if a warforger polymorphed into a human and someone casts enlarge person on him, it would work, altough I really don't know what to say about changing back to warforged. I guess coming up with enlarge living construct is a sound idea.
R4za 10-11-07, 10:26 AM	Tordak's got the point I forgot to make. Effect durations overlap with periods of immunity, they just don't function during them.
AndrewTater 10-13-07, 02:54 AM	On page 298 of the DMG it states that you can voluntarily allow spells to pass through spell resistance. So gaining that wouldn't prevent, say, bull's strength from working. Also, the PHB never says how lost Geas lasts, but Lesser Geas lasts 1 day/level if given an ambiguous task. We triggered the spell by signing a contract, and the biggest point in it was "Defend Breland," as well as "Destroy [ambiguous cult name] so that (damn royal politicians). Does that mean that the standard Geas only lasts 1 day/level?
Egres 10-13-07, 11:04 AM	From the FAQ: A spell only checks to see if you are a legal target when it is cast. If you become an illegal target later (such as via the polymorph spell), the spell remains in effect.
Vikjunk 10-13-07, 02:10 PM	There is nothing in the rules that say that immunity makes a creature an invalid target. All it does is make you unaffected by the effects. Like if a Warforged is hit by a Warlock’s Noxious Blast ability doesn’t mean that he doesn’t take the damage from the ability just that he isn’t affected by the nausea effect of it. So while the Warforged Juggernaut still has the Geas spell on him he would be unaffected by the effects of the spell.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-14-07, 02:57 AM	Ehm... Guys... The "not being a valid target"-thing has been clarified by Kreistor several posts ago - the WF remains a valid target, and even if he wouldn't,there would be no consequences. The rule about how "spell immunity" works, THAT's the relevant point here. And leads to WF still being effected by the spell.
Cifer 10-14-07, 10:19 AM	The rule about how "spell immunity" works, THAT's the relevant point here. And leads to WF still being effected by the spell. I doubt that Spell Immnunity is what is gained by the Juggernaut. That sounds more like the Golem ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm), especially since both mention that they only affect stuff that spell resistance applies to. Further, Spell Immnunity specifies it only applies against Spells and Spell-likes, while the Juggernaut ability works against all mind-affecting effects.
Tordak 10-15-07, 09:59 AM	Cifer is correct, the WJN becomes immune to mind-affecting effects, not just spells and spell-likes. Legal target was the only issue I think. Egres post also clarify the legal target problem, I checked the FAQ too. If that's the current/correct rule, the WJN is still affected. But if it's really about spell immunity, then JSEW you are correct, gainning spell resistance, whether it's a numbered SR or spell immunity, changes nothing to spells already cast. Well, in both cases the WJN is still affected.
Tordak 10-15-07, 11:00 AM	On page 298 of the DMG it states that you can voluntarily allow spells to pass through spell resistance. So gaining that wouldn't prevent, say, bull's strength from working. Also, the PHB never says how lost Geas lasts, but Lesser Geas lasts 1 day/level if given an ambiguous task. We triggered the spell by signing a contract, and the biggest point in it was "Defend Breland," as well as "Destroy [ambiguous cult name] so that (damn royal politicians). Does that mean that the standard Geas only lasts 1 day/level? Defend Brelan is an ambiguous request because Defend Brelan could be against any threats, in any and many kind of ways, not clear about what you defend it against (is it physical enemies, poverty, defend Brelan values, etc...), it covers an area to large in time and duties. So lesser geas last only last 1 day/level in that case (if cast as the basic spell). However,this is of course subject to interpretation. Also, contracting the geas through signing a contract if you did not know there was a geas attached to it doesn't make you willing (you must be aware a spell is being cast on you to volontarily lower your resistance; anything else is not volonteering, of course if you are under the influence of spell that forces certain course of action on you then it's different). As for regular Geas, it appears it has the same duration, since it states 'as lesser geas' and does not specify a duration in the text. That's how it usually works for spells like 'greater something', it's the same unless there's a change in the description.
Egres 10-29-07, 07:37 AM	If an acquired immunity would stop an ongoing effect, a Rugamuffyn (sp ?)(MM2) could not control its hosts.
Occams_Razor 10-31-07, 09:51 PM	I don't know, I think it's obvious that the spell is still in effect upon the WJN, as he is not invalidated as a target, but I would rule that if indeed Geas is a mind-affecting spell, it can't impact the character any longer. It's still there, and supposing somehow he lost his immunity down the road, it would still be able to affect him, but I just feel like the verisimilitude takes a hit when you rule "No, no, no mind-affecting stuff except the Geas, cuz it was already there." If they can't affect him, they shouldn't affect him. My 2cp.