Post/Author/DateTime	Post
erebfaer 08-12-07, 07:09 AM	One of my players wants to take both the Warforged Juggernaut and Reforged prcs (5/2 lvls respectively). I am quite opposed to this because they are infact opposing classes but he insists its fine. Does anyone else agree with me/him? And for what reasons?
Lazaro 08-12-07, 08:55 AM	From page 6 of FAQ: Can a warforged juggernaut gain levels in the reforged prestige class (Races of EBERRON, page 161)? If so, what happens to a warforged juggernaut’s class features if that character chooses to advance through all three levels of reforged? What about going the other direction (a reforged becoming a warforged juggernaut)? There’s nothing stopping a warforged juggernaut from qualifying for the reforged prestige class. In general, the class features from both prestige classes would apply normally, but note that the character would lose his Adamantine Body feat upon reaching 3rd level as a reforged. The only tricky interaction is between the 3rd-level warforged juggernaut’s healing immunity class feature and the reforged’s magical healing class feature. In this case, the warforged juggernaut’s immunity takes precedence. That’s because the reforged’s class feature is an adjustment to the normal warforged limit to magical healing, while the warforged juggernaut is a blanket immunity to all such effects. As far as a reforged becoming a warforged juggernaut, the character could do so but would have to begin progression as a juggernaut before reaching 3rd level as a reforged. That’s because at 3rd level, a reforged loses any warforged feats he possesses, including the Adamantine Body feat required for the warforged juggernaut. Thus, such a character could never qualify for the warforged juggernaut prestige class. If the character already had one or more levels in warforged juggernaut before reaching 3rd level as a reforged, he would retain all warforged juggernaut class features (even the armor spikes gained at 1st level, since these aren’t the result of a warforged feat) but could not gain any additional levels in the prestige class.
Teron Gorefiend 08-12-07, 10:39 AM	That said, the philosophies of the two classes are so absolutely, obviously opposed that anyone who tries to take them both should be summarily expulsed from the game. You might also consider confiscating his books and beating him with Races of Eberron.
Pinky's brain 08-12-07, 02:33 PM	People aren't allowed to change their minds? That said, it would be easier to just roleplay the change of heart ... since mechanically you get nothing out of reforged.
Alex_ 08-13-07, 10:43 AM	Maybe they could be some kind of philosophic individual who wants to explore both sides of their nature. Like the guy who travels the world totally immersing himself in different cultures, faiths, and ideas in order to get a better understanding of all of them. They may be a free loving partying hedonist at one point in their life, and an striving to be an ascetic monk the next. As living constructs, there might be a Warforged that wants to truly understand what its like to be living and a construct, and so pursue one philosophy, then the other in search of a greater awareness of what they truly are.
Kinger 08-13-07, 12:39 PM	Maybe they could be some kind of philosophic individual who wants to explore both sides of their nature. Like the guy who travels the world totally immersing himself in different cultures, faiths, and ideas in order to get a better understanding of all of them. They may be a free loving partying hedonist at one point in their life, and an striving to be an ascetic monk the next. As living constructs, there might be a Warforged that wants to truly understand what its like to be living and a construct, and so pursue one philosophy, then the other in search of a greater awareness of what they truly are. I've never accepted that argument. "I want to try both sides!" No. The Juggernaut and Reforged are fundamentally opposed. One cannot be both chaste and promiscuous. One cannot be both a vegan and carnivore. One cannot be a paladin and a blackguard. If one wants to experience both sides, Living and Construct, one would not take either Reforged or Juggernaut. They represent such extremes of attitude and philosophy that they are simply incompatible. If one day you want to spurn living creatures and be a cold, unfeeling construct, and the next you want to frolic with kittens and eat apples with orphans, you obviously don't care enough about either philosophy to warrant taking Prestige Classes focussed on either.
Alex_ 08-13-07, 11:03 PM	I've never accepted that argument. "I want to try both sides!" No. The Juggernaut and Reforged are fundamentally opposed. Not in the way that you describe below. They're ideologically opposed, but there's no reason one cannot seek to pursue BOTH their Construct and Living nature at some point in their lives. Warforged Juggernaut is about focusing on Construct traits. It's not about denying Living traits. Likewise, Reforged seek to embrace their living side, but they don't necessarily denounce their Construct heritage. Juggernaut is Pro-construct, while Reforged is Pro-Life. One cannot be both chaste and promiscuous. One cannot be both a vegan and carnivore. One cannot be a paladin and a blackguard. The Warforged/Reforged are about embracing an idea more than forsaking another one. Chaste people actively avoid sex. Vegans actively avoid animal food products. The Black Gaurd and Paladin traits are mechanically incompatible. Even if the Juggernaut were anti-Living, and the Reforged were anti-construct.... Stories abound of people who use to be promiscuous and then turned celibate or monogamous, along with people who were once chaste virgins that turned into unapologetic hedonists. There are people who used to love animal food products, and then, after a change of heart become vegetarians/vegans. Paladins can become Blackgaurds and Blackgaurds can become Paladins. And in these situations, much of the knowledge, experiences, and skills acquired through their previous days are not lost. Former escorts who become monks/nuns don't forget all the stuff they learned about adult entertainment and might not be able to get rid of the diseases, children, or previous relationships formed as a result. People who become Vegans don't forget about the taste of steak, how to prepare a wonderful baked ham, or rid themselves of clogged arteries and hypertension. Paladins who become Blackgaurds still keep their Base Attack bonus, weapon and armor proficiencies, and skills. If one wants to experience both sides, Living and Construct, one would not take either Reforged or Juggernaut. They represent such extremes of attitude and philosophy that they are simply incompatible. If one day you want to spurn living creatures and be a cold, unfeeling construct, and the next you want to frolic with kittens and eat apples with orphans, you obviously don't care enough about either philosophy to warrant taking Prestige Classes focussed on either. I agree that changing from day to day would be extreme. However, it's not unthinkable that a Warforged PC, pursuing its Construct roots, suddenly finds that it's not all its cracked up to be. They're stronger and tougher sure, but they find themselves becoming colder and unfeeling. Take a few levels of Warforged Juggernaut, then move over to Reforged. Or the Warforged who wants to be a Reforged. However, they find no matter how much they try to be like the flesh races, they're never accepted. The pain becomes too much (since they're not much more sensitive to emotional pain and rejection than before) and in response, they seek to embrace the side of themselves that doesn't judge and can block out the pain. A few levels of Reforged and then to Juggernaut. Or on a less serious note (not to suggest that mental conditions are a joking matter)- a Warforged with behavior comparable to bipolar or multiple personality disorders.
androkguz 08-13-07, 11:46 PM	Not in the way that you describe below. They're ideologically opposed, but there's no reason one cannot seek to pursue BOTH their Construct and Living nature at some point in their lives. Warforged Juggernaut is about focusing on Construct traits. It's not about denying Living traits. Likewise, Reforged seek to embrace their living side, but they don't necessarily denounce their Construct heritage. Juggernaut is Pro-construct, while Reforged is Pro-Life. The Warforged/Reforged are about embracing an idea more than forsaking another one. Chaste people actively avoid sex. Vegans actively avoid animal food products. The Black Gaurd and Paladin traits are mechanically incompatible. Even if the Juggernaut were anti-Living, and the Reforged were anti-construct.... Stories abound of people who use to be promiscuous and then turned celibate or monogamous, along with people who were once chaste virgins that turned into unapologetic hedonists. There are people who used to love animal food products, and then, after a change of heart become vegetarians/vegans. Paladins can become Blackgaurds and Blackgaurds can become Paladins. And in these situations, much of the knowledge, experiences, and skills acquired through their previous days are not lost. Former escorts who become monks/nuns don't forget all the stuff they learned about adult entertainment and might not be able to get rid of the diseases, children, or previous relationships formed as a result. People who become Vegans don't forget about the taste of steak, how to prepare a wonderful baked ham, or rid themselves of clogged arteries and hypertension. Paladins who become Blackgaurds still keep their Base Attack bonus, weapon and armor proficiencies, and skills. I agree that changing from day to day would be extreme. However, it's not unthinkable that a Warforged PC, pursuing its Construct roots, suddenly finds that it's not all its cracked up to be. They're stronger and tougher sure, but they find themselves becoming colder and unfeeling. Take a few levels of Warforged Juggernaut, then move over to Reforged. Or the Warforged who wants to be a Reforged. However, they find no matter how much they try to be like the flesh races, they're never accepted. The pain becomes too much (since they're not much more sensitive to emotional pain and rejection than before) and in response, they seek to embrace the side of themselves that doesn't judge and can block out the pain. A few levels of Reforged and then to Juggernaut. Or on a less serious note (not to suggest that mental conditions are a joking matter)- a Warforged with behavior comparable to bipolar or multiple personality disorders. Yeah, sure! So how about making a cleric with the diabolic domain and the good domain using the rule that allows me to have a personal dogma in which I strongly believe that by releasing devils in the world I'm doing good. I'm sure I can come up with some more ideas to make this logicaly posible but in the end it would be the same thing: a cleric with the diabolic and good domains. The thing is that both are prestige classes. It's not like a paladin becoming a blackguard, it's more like a knight of the chalice becoming a blackguard. When would the Juggernaut realize that he is in the wrong way? at first level? he wouldn't have been decided enought to become one in the first place. At level 3-5? He would be already too lost in coldness. And a reforged that's just started is like the juggernaut: if he leaves now, then he shouldn't have began in the first place. A special individual might however change, but I'm inclined to think that couldn't happed without the aid of circunstances (aka the DM) and that would be like telling the player "Ok, so at level 10 you'll have a dark deity visiting you and you'll be able to get your first blackguard level".
Alex_ 08-14-07, 01:06 AM	So how about making a cleric with the diabolic domain and the good domain using the rule that allows me to have a personal dogma in which I strongly believe that by releasing devils in the world I'm doing good. I'm sure I can come up with some more ideas to make this logicaly posible but in the end it would be the same thing: a cleric with the diabolic and good domains. Well if they have a reasonable and logical explanation and it's not overpowered or broken, what's the hang up? The thing is that both are prestige classes. It's not like a paladin becoming a blackguard, it's more like a knight of the chalice becoming a blackguard. If they have a change of heart or begin to think that the Demons/Devils they've been fighting the whole time are actually a source to greater personal strength and power. The Paladin example would have actually worked better, as Paladins have an even more strict alignment and moral code than Knights of the Chalice and fight evil in a more broad sense rather than focusing on specific types of Evil like Knights of the Chalice. However, Paladins can turn into Blackgaurds. If they can turn into Blackgaurds, then it's possible (and more believable) for anyone of lesser resolve. When would the Juggernaut realize that he is in the wrong way? at first level? he wouldn't have been decided enought to become one in the first place. At level 3-5? He would be already too lost in coldness. That would be up to the player and DM as it's a role playing issue. However, there is nothing in the class that suggests that there's a point in the prestige class where a character is "too lost in coldness." They can realize it when the penalties they suffered to social skills land them in bad situations. Or when they try to embrace someone, and their spiked armor makes it impossible. Or when they find that they're immune to illusions, and thus unable to enjoy House Thuranni/Phialarn shows or the antics of their Gnome Bard ally as they used to. Or their appearance alone can is making people treat them differently. Whatever the reason, in general, it would probably be the point where they realize they made a mistake. They wanted to become stronger, faster, tougher, and more capable, but they didn't know it would come at the cost of this much of their "humanity". A special individual might however change... PCs are special individuals. ...but I'm inclined to think that couldn't happed without the aid of circunstances (aka the DM) Of course. Everything related to character advancement/development should be done with knowledge, approval, and cooperation of the DM. and that would be like telling the player "Ok, so at level 10 you'll have a dark deity visiting you and you'll be able to get your first blackguard level". Then don't do it that way. When you're making your character, tell the DM what classes you would like to take and talk to him ab out how to make it work. If it requires some specific roleplaying or events, then talk with the DM to have them worked into the campaign.
Henry_Fitsroy 08-14-07, 07:39 AM	hi I'm the player 80% of the forum readers who have read this thread are perplexed about and hate probably I'm the warforged guy my story was a reject from the last war wanting to become the perfect weapon wasn't that his purpose then after becoming a juggernaut realizing after 5 levels that this isn't perfection its just brutality. reclaiming my "humanity" slowly over only 2 levels of reforged where i would offset the penalty's of charisma etc based skills with bonus from reforged as well as gaining natural healing (not a modification to ability's but an addition) but not magical (a modification to ability's) not 3 levels because i lose most of the benefits of being a juggernaut if I take 3 levels.
The_Gimp 08-14-07, 10:08 AM	I may sound stupid, but what's a Reforged? Is it something like Lei in TDD or like Harmathan?
TiwazTyrsfist 08-14-07, 11:18 AM	I may sound stupid, but what's a Reforged? Is it something like Lei in TDD or like Harmathan? No, Reforged are warforged who are focused on the concept that they are living beings. They adapt themselves to be more like living beings, removing the armor plating, wearing cloths, even adapting to gain the ability to eat and drink in a fairly normal manner. Also, they can be healed fully by normal healing. Now on to the main subject. Saying, "I want to take some levels of Reforged and some Warforged Juggernaut" is a lot like saying "I want to take some levels as a Paladin, then become a blackguard" They are conflicting life philosophies. If someone wants to advance a warforged along the lines of exploring both sides of what it is to be a living construct, you need to homebrew a new PrC on that philosophy. Possibly consider Save-vs-DM's Warforged Paragon class here (http://www.savevsdm.com/?q=node/6). If someone wants to Min/Max between two conflicting PrCs, Disallow it. Then and if they won't accept that, disinclude them from the game.
Alex_ 08-14-07, 12:20 PM	Now on to the main subject. Saying, "I want to take some levels of Reforged and some Warforged Juggernaut" is a lot like saying "I want to take some levels as a Paladin, then become a blackguard" They are conflicting life philosophies. But Paladins can become Blackgaurds. There are rules in the Blackgaurd prestige specifically for Paladins who become Blackgaurds. Not only is it possible, it's actually expected that a number of Blackgaurds will be former Paladins. However, even in that case, it should never be as simple as a Player saying, "Okay I took 5 levels of Paladin, now I want to become a Blackgaurd." or "I want to alternate between Blackgaurd and paladin." However, it is possible for a character to have once been a paladin, and now be a Blackgaurd. Or even to have once been a Blackgaurd and now be a Paladin. Henry (the poster above you) gave an excellent example of how a character's history and progression would resolt in both Warforged Juggernaut and Reforged class levels. The idea is not farfetched at all. It's a very common fantasy/sci-fi trope involving any for of artificial being. If someone wants to Min/Max between two conflicting PrCs, Disallow it. Then and if they won't accept that, disinclude them from the game. The result, no matter how well they are at min-maxing, it not going to produce an overpowered characters. All a Warforged Juggernaut gets from the levels of Reforged is the ability to naturally regain non-lethal HP and ability damage, bonuses to social skills, and the ability to get bonuses on Wisdom checks and a +1 Moral bonus. If they took it to the 3rd level, they'd lose all their armor, spikes, Warforged feats, etc. In addition, their BaB progression goes to 3/4 and they get d8 HD instead of d12. They'd be better off tanking levels in Barbarian or Fighter. Likewise, if a Reforged took the Juggernaut prestige class, assuming they only took 2 levels of the Reforged lass, they would no longer benefit at all from healing spells, and take penalties to their social skills to offset the bonuses. They would be more capable in combat, but not as much as a Warforged who took nothing but levels of Barbarian/Fighter. It's not overpowered in the slightest. In fact, it's not really optimized at all. If the PC is min-maxing, it's because they're trying to salvage an un-optimized concept in order to stay competitive with others who took more mechanically efficient options. If a player asks for the Warfiorged Juggernaut/Reforged combo, they honestly care more about role playing or the character concept than getting the highest numbers in that campaign.
Kinger 08-14-07, 01:00 PM	Admitedly the paladin/blackguard comparison isn't quite valid, since the latter is really a corruption of the former. Cleric of Good and Blackguard is better. I view the Juggernaut not just as "I'm more like a construct" but rather "I'm more like a construct AND less like a living thing." Juggy takes penalties to skills involving social interaction, can't be healed by positive energy, gains immunity to necromantic effects, etc. And, while I don't have access to the Reforged class I'm familiar enough with its mechanics to make the opposite interpretation "I'm more like a living thing AND less like a construct." Reforgy loses his composite plating and resistance to critical hits, begins to relish social interactions, etc. Now, that's just me. You're the DM, your ruling is all that's important. I'm just saying that if it were me, I wouldn't allow it. Rather, I'd look into some sort of "retraining" of class levels to eliminate some Juggernaut in exchange for... Fighter, on top of taking levels of Reforged. Say ReJuggy gains only 75% XP, but when he levels up he looses a level of Juggernaut and gains a level of Fighter and Reforged. Similar to how a Blackguard can trade in Paladin levels, but since that's something of the class's INTENTION, and not so with Juggernaut, there's the XP penalty. Or just ditch the XP penalty. :)
TiwazTyrsfist 08-14-07, 01:03 PM	However, even in that case, it should never be as simple as a Player saying, "Okay I took 5 levels of Paladin, now I want to become a Blackgaurd." or "I want to alternate between Blackgaurd and paladin." . That was my point. If someone took levels as one, and then through proper roll playing had a major personality/philosophy change, and wanted to go into the other, that's perfectly acceptable to me. But the implied, I'll take 2 levels of a contrary PrC to get around one of the limits of my main PrC, that's what I call munchkiny. By taking 2 levels in Reforged, you give up 1 BAB for NATURAL HEALING and FULL MAGICAL HEALING on a character who should, as a result of his main PrC, have No natural or magical healing. This is Twinking. This is munchkinry. This is definitive power-gaming. I'm not saying you can't come up with a reason or explanation for doing it. I'm not saying that you can't do it as a good role-player and not be power-gaming. I'm just saying that, TO ME, this is a leading power-gaming question.
Yadot 08-14-07, 02:18 PM	Did you read the post quoting the FAQ above you, TiwazTyrsfist? You give up 1 BAB and a d12 HD for MAGICAL HEALING that is subsumed by your blanket JUGGERNAUT HEALING IMMUNITY. Hardly the min-maxed monster you make it out to be.
Alex_ 08-14-07, 02:18 PM	That was my point. If someone took levels as one, and then through proper roll playing had a major personality/philosophy change, and wanted to go into the other, that's perfectly acceptable to me. And that's exactly what someone who took levels in the Juggernaut and Reforged classes should be doing. But the implied, I'll take 2 levels of a contrary PrC to get around one of the limits of my main PrC, that's what I call munchkiny. By taking 2 levels in Reforged, you give up 1 BAB for NATURAL HEALING and FULL MAGICAL HEALING on a character who should, as a result of his main PrC, have No natural or magical healing. A Juggernaut who takes levels in Reforged does not get full magical healing. Their immunity to Magical healing negates it as pointed out in the second post of this thread. Also, the ability to regenerate lethal and non-lethal HP alone is not that broken. If they do this, that means that they can't benefit from regaining HP through Craft checks, because doing so counts as activity one must abstain from in order to regenerate HP naturally through rest. So in reality, all they gain is a +2 bonus to Social skills (to which they already suffer a penalty), a +2 Will save bonus, and the ability to naturally regain HP if they choose not to make a craft check. They're doing this when they could have taken 2 levels in Barbarian, Fighter, Warforged Juggernaut if they haven't completed it), Frenzied Berserker, or any of the other classes that mesh much better with its abilities. That is not overpowered. I'm not saying you can't come up with a reason or explanation for doing it. I'm not saying that you can't do it as a good role-player and not be power-gaming. I'm just saying that, TO ME, this is a leading power-gaming question. That would be true, if it were actually that powerful compared to other options. It really isn't. A real power gamer or optimizer would go with another level in a class with full BaB progression, higher HP, and something that compliments their already existing abilities
Dragoloth 08-14-07, 04:15 PM	hi I'm the player 80% of the forum readers who have read this thread are perplexed about and hate probably I'm the warforged guy my story was a reject from the last war wanting to become the perfect weapon wasn't that his purpose then after becoming a juggernaut realizing after 5 levels that this isn't perfection its just brutality. reclaiming my "humanity" slowly over only 2 levels of reforged where i would offset the penalty's of charisma etc based skills with bonus from reforged as well as gaining natural healing (not a modification to ability's but an addition) but not magical (a modification to ability's) not 3 levels because i lose most of the benefits of being a juggernaut if I take 3 levels. The story of why sounded good, but your last sentence says alot. This is called metagaming. In my opinion saying my character wants to reclaim his humanity, but won't take the third level of reforged because he'll lose the benefits(the brutality) of the juggernaut is power gaming whether its optimal or not. If being a juggernaut and gaining those abilities was not perfection but brutality, then the character who wants to change would no longer want the brutality(i.e. juggernaut abilities). This gives a player a juggernaut that can naturally heal, not broken but IMO crappy roleplay.
erebfaer 08-14-07, 07:50 PM	Ok, I've decided that, If he can play the character well, Henry can play with both PrCs. He can have the natural healing but will be immune to magical healing (which IMO makes it an unworthy build).
LoneStranger 08-14-07, 07:56 PM	Yeah I really can't see anyone taking both prestige classes on one character, although both prestige classes could almost be taken in the Eberron group I'm in (two different characters). I would really want to see it role-played out having the change of heart to want to jump from one to the other. As far as the comment of trying to experience everything with a Warforged both good and bad, that sounds like you'd stay off of both paths. If I were the DM and someone came up to me about wanting to take both reforged and juggernaut but didn't give me a really good explanation as to why he's trying to do that I'd tell him his character implodes, try again, and don't be cheesy.
JulesCARV 08-14-07, 11:31 PM	This thread reminds me of an old Mature Topics thread on the compatability of warforged body feats and Vow of Poverty (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-627225.html). As is the wont of such threads, it got off topic, and someone (EvilVegan) proposed a Vow of Poverty warforged monk/juggernaut/reforged/apostle of peace. It's funnier in context, though.
Alex_ 08-15-07, 02:30 PM	The story of why sounded good, but your last sentence says alot. This is called metagaming. In my opinion saying my character wants to reclaim his humanity, but won't take the third level of reforged because he'll lose the benefits(the brutality) of the juggernaut is power gaming whether its optimal or not. If being a juggernaut and gaining those abilities was not perfection but brutality, then the character who wants to change would no longer want the brutality(i.e. juggernaut abilities). This gives a player a juggernaut that can naturally heal, not broken but IMO crappy roleplay. There's often a point when concept, if carried too far, an lead to a broken character (in their favor or against it). Losing all Warforged Feats, armor, and spikes is the point for the Warforged Juggernaut/Reforged where they become broken, as in in far less powerful than other PCs of their relative character level. The fact that it still has spikes and armor doesn't mean the roleplaying, no matter what, automatically loses value. It just means that the player also realizes they're playing a game with associated mechanics, and like most players who multi-class, is not going to progress in a level any more than they have to, especially not if it prevents them from utilizing former class abilities/feats earned. They roleplay within the boundaries. This too takes imagination and finesse.
Khan the Destroyer 08-16-07, 02:05 AM	The inability for some of you to imagine a warforged that once embraced the path of the juggernaught and afterwards embraced the path of the reforged is astounding. It would be like an atheist warforged who then found the Becoming God. Or a warforged that was a super soldier in the last war that later turned to pacifism. You could even have the same character be a juggernaught, then decide that we would rather be closer to the people that made him and become a reforged, and then later decide to abandon that cause and focus on his strengths as a living construct, embracing the juggernaught once again. This is totally possible and can be roleplayed. Without a doubt. What is the major issue? Nothing is overpowered, and nothing is contradictory. It's a warforged exploring those various life choices available to warforged.
ArcTan 08-16-07, 02:32 AM	That said, the philosophies of the two classes are so absolutely, obviously opposed that anyone who tries to take them both should be summarily expulsed from the game. You might also consider confiscating his books and beating him with Races of Eberron. Nah. It just means at one point in his life he believed one thing and later came to believe the exact opposite, making most of the changes he made to himself in the first phase useless and bad reminders of an old life (from his point of view). Flavorwise, it could work. Mechanically, it would kind of suck anyway, so what's the big deal?
Millenia 08-16-07, 04:41 AM	People aren't allowed to change their minds? That's why the retraining rules exist.
ArcTan 08-17-07, 11:41 PM	That's why the retraining rules exist. Retraining doesn't let you dump class levels for other class levels -- you can only mix up things like feats and slots. You can't change your class levels except with magic (the new Deck of Many Things or else a "rebuild quest" that puts you through a magic mirror or makes you drink a magic potion). Thematically, it shouldn't be as easy to let go of your Reforged past as saying "I don't want to be human anymore! Goodbye full healing, hello armor spikes!"
Millenia 08-20-07, 03:52 AM	Retraining doesn't let you dump class levels for other class levels -- you can only mix up things like feats and slots. You can't change your class levels except with magic (the new Deck of Many Things or else a "rebuild quest" that puts you through a magic mirror or makes you drink a magic potion). Ah, right. I thought retraining encompassed both the concepts of retraining and rebuilding. That's what happens when I don't actually read those rules, I guess. ^_^;; Thematically, it shouldn't be as easy to let go of your Reforged past as saying "I don't want to be human anymore! Goodbye full healing, hello armor spikes!" Indeed. Characters should undergo quests, or at least lots of training, or whatever the warforged did to become a reforged in the first place, but in reverse - as part of the rebuilding process, of course.
RogueElement 08-26-07, 01:56 PM	Warforged Juggernaut + Reforged aren't diametrically opposed ideas, the warforged is just exploring both aspects of his nature. He's just exploring the yin and yang of his nature as far as he can go. If he goes too far on the Reforged path and takes the 3rd level, then he loses his Warforged Juggernaut powers because he loses his adamantine body feat. It isn't any more complicated than that.
ArcTan 08-28-07, 12:47 AM	The problem is that the "yin" and the "yang" don't coexist well simultaneously. Basically, the WF gets a bonus to his social skills from exploring his human, social side, and then *loses* that bonus with a penalty that comes from exploring his mechanical, construct side, and so he's simultaneously better and worse than ordinary WF at human social interaction (i.e. the same). That's kind of dumb.
Closet_Nerd 08-31-07, 10:01 AM	I think it would be easier to go from juggernaut to reforged than visa versa. It would take a significant catalyzing event (imho) to make a character who loves life decide- you know what... i hate this enjoying life thing. I want to re-infuse myself with metal bits, spikes and take on an attitude that scares small children. It would be somewhat akin to the creation of "the punisher" out of Frank Castle. I don't think the ideology of the reforged could survive. By the same token could the character really feel alive with armor spikes and adamantium plate? There would always be the potential to feel more. I'd say take the 3rd level of reforged and forsake all of the construct feats. *however* i think that a good DM could find some way to allow a more limited form of those feats. Perhaps their adamantium plate could be "quick attach" or be "reforged" in to a suit of mundane plate armor. They could enjoy both the qualities of the armor (that they lost as a reforged) but i wouldn't allow them to use the social or healing bonuses of the reforged while wearing the armor. Call it the lasting magical effect of being plated to a living being.
Garden_State_Gamer 08-31-07, 01:14 PM	I am curious as to why a player would feel he has to "embrace the path" of both philosophies by taking two very diametrically opposed prestige classes. If a PC wanted to explore what it's like to be a emtionless machine, and a compationate sentient being, then it is fully possible to do both in any one of the multitudes of base classes currently offered.