Post/Author/DateTime	Post
warforgedMonkey 06-23-07, 12:19 AM	i need help making a warforged that can run around and do lots of damage and till take a heavy blow.. i need help selecting classes and feats..
Alex_ 06-23-07, 12:57 AM	1. Put your highest ability scores into Strength and Constitution. 2. Take levels in Fighter and Barbarian. 3. ??? 4. Profit! Pretty simple really. Some people take a level of Artificer so they can heal themselves.
warforgedMonkey 06-23-07, 11:56 AM	i wanted to find something else than the core classes,, classes or prestige classes that give bonuses to charging, grapling, bull rushing......
Edymnion 06-23-07, 12:22 PM	Uh, well you pretty much answered your own question with the thread title. The Warforged Juggernaught PrC.
warforgedMonkey 06-23-07, 12:36 PM	i know, but there has to be something else than the juggernaut...
Pinky's brain 06-23-07, 01:23 PM	A frenzied berserker warforged juggernaut with proof against transmutation put on his plating is almost indestructible while in deathless frenzy ... can do good damage too.
Edymnion 06-23-07, 01:24 PM	Actually, if you just want to be a melee monster, don't take Juggernaught at all. Get the biggest two handed weapon you can find, go straight Fighter for the feats from PHB2 (like Weapon Supremecy), Adm Body, and spend your normal feats on Improved Damage Reduction.
Nived 06-23-07, 01:25 PM	Well the thing about base classes that are pure melee beasts that out do a fighter or barbarian... don't stand to reason. Fighters and Barbarians are suposed to be the best they are at what they do, disciplined and reckless fighting respectively. There's the samuari... but everyone agrees it sucks. The Ranger and Paladin, but as you said you don't want core classes. The only alternative you have then is to get yourself Tome of Battle, and I'm not sure how well that syncs up with the concept. Warblade would give you d12 hd, full base attack, acess to fighter feats and maneuvers. Thing is your maneuvers will pretty much limit you to standard action. Crusader would of course let you heal yourself with certain strikes and shrug off damage, but I don't think it would be a good choice for s juggernaut seeing as a large part of its class features depend on actually taking damage (as crazy as that sounds) and the Juggernaut's features aim towards preventing damage.
Nived 06-23-07, 01:27 PM	Actually, if you just want to be a melee monster, don't take Juggernaught at all. Get the biggest two handed weapon you can find, go straight Fighter for the feats from PHB2 (like Weapon Supremecy), and spend your normal feats on Improved Damage Reduction. And yeah I agree with that. PHBII actually makes a pure fighter worth playing... also look into Leap Attack from Complete Adventurer to get a triple return on those power attacks with a two handed weapon.
ArcTan 06-23-07, 02:11 PM	Well the thing about base classes that are pure melee beasts that out do a fighter or barbarian... don't stand to reason. No one's actually mentioned any, so this isn't really relevant. But "stand to reason" how? Warblades are mechanically better, or at least mechanically a lot more fun and easier to use, than Fighters and Barbarians. Fighters and Barbarians are suposed to be the best they are at what they do, disciplined and reckless fighting respectively. They're *supposed* to be, but designers can make mistakes and not fulfill their intentions. Sometimes pretty fundamental ones. The only alternative you have then is to get yourself Tome of Battle, and I'm not sure how well that syncs up with the concept. Warblade would give you d12 hd, full base attack, acess to fighter feats and maneuvers. Thing is your maneuvers will pretty much limit you to standard action. Using a maneuver as a standard action is almost always more fun and rewarding than doing the 5-foot-step full-attack tango.
Edymnion 06-23-07, 02:13 PM	Except for games, like mine, where Tome of Battle isn't allowed.
ArcTan 06-23-07, 05:05 PM	Except for games, like mine, where Tome of Battle isn't allowed. ...And some DMs don't allow PHB2. What's your point?
DragoonDarkfire 06-23-07, 05:09 PM	I also know DM's who don't allow any classes outside of the Players Handbook. Not that there's anything wrong with that but it can get BORING playing for guys who don't even allow Psionics.
ArcTan 06-23-07, 05:22 PM	...So there's no need to randomly shoot Tome of Battle down as though that book is any more ban-worthy or any more commonly banned than Complete Warrior or PHB2.
Nived 06-23-07, 05:43 PM	Well Arc my point was that until the Tome of Battle there was no base class (not counting multiclassed PrC machines) that was a better melee combatant than the fighter and barbarian. (Unless we count a Cleric with prep time, and unerrata'd Divine Power). Which is how it should be because fighters and barbarians should be the best melee fighters. They're not. (Aforementioned clerics, some druid tricks, and certain multiclass PrC combos... but a fighter should be the best.... fighter.) With the tome of battle yes, the Warblade does shine, it is the only base class that can match the pure melee prowess of the fighter or barbarian. Crusader... sure if you're lucky with drawing manuevers. Still doesn't change the fact that casters, psions, and artificers will evenutally outpace you.
Pinky's brain 06-26-07, 11:29 AM	Get the biggest two handed weapon you can find, go straight Fighter for the feats from PHB2 (like Weapon Supremecy), Adm Body, and spend your normal feats on Improved Damage Reduction. All you get is something which can do piddling damage with multiple glass chins (adamantine weapons for melee opponents and any type of spells attacking his weak saves). Putting all those feats into DR is counter productive, you are not a good damage dealer ... why put so much effort into being able to soak it? You are not a prime target, unless you are mostly fighting in corridors or against stupid monsters defense is not something you should be concentrating on that heavily. Only Knights can afford to focus on defense like that, because they are prime targets.
Nived 06-26-07, 01:58 PM	You could pick up the Goad feat to make them attack you. Important for any meleer that wants to soak damage for casters in later levels.
Edymnion 06-26-07, 08:20 PM	All you get is something which can do piddling damage with multiple glass chins (adamantine weapons for melee opponents and any type of spells attacking his weak saves).Only if your DM doesn't follow the rules. I don't know about your 2h fighters, but mine routinely do 50+ damage per hit, which means I routinely trigger a Save vs. Massive Damage, which is core non-variant rules. Sure, most things will make the save, on all but a natural 1. But then, thats the same as a Vorpal sword automatically killing things on a natural 20, and my SvMD applies to EVERYTHING, unlike Vorpal.
yrogerg 06-27-07, 07:20 AM	Only if your DM doesn't follow the rules. I don't know about your 2h fighters, but mine routinely do 50+ damage per hit, which means I routinely trigger a Save vs. Massive Damage, which is core non-variant rules. Sure, most things will make the save, on all but a natural 1. But then, thats the same as a Vorpal sword automatically killing things on a natural 20, and my SvMD applies to EVERYTHING, unlike Vorpal. Everything that has a Con score, you mean. Undead and Constructs aren't vulnerable to Massive Damage. (Granted, they're mostly immune to Vorpal, as well, but still.)
Edymnion 06-27-07, 01:21 PM	Everything that has a Con score, you mean. Undead and Constructs aren't vulnerable to Massive Damage. (Granted, they're mostly immune to Vorpal, as well, but still.)Actually, isn't the immunity to massive damage a type trait, not because they lack a con score? Don't remember, and I'm away from my books at the moment. Either way, it hits everything that Vorpal hits and then some, and you can start pulling it off WELL before you could ever think of affording a Vorpal weapon. Plus, the DM won't automatically beat you with a blunt object for asking for a vorpal weapon.
Darakhoranon 06-27-07, 03:31 PM	HeŽll only start beating you with blunt objects after you start forcing SvMD AND ask for a Vorpal weapon... Yes, I do know a couple of... geniuses... whoŽd do something like that. warforgedMonkey, you seem to be looking for an "optimized" build. Ask at the CO-boards, youŽd probably have more luck there. Here questions like yours tend to generate LONG discussions - frequently without anyone even remembering what had started said discussions... If I wanted to play a warforged capable of dishing out damage and soaking it up, IŽd probably stick with fighter. All the feats IŽd get could be quite useful in making a melee monster.
Cifer 06-27-07, 06:30 PM	If I wanted to play a warforged capable of dishing out damage and soaking it up, IŽd probably stick with fighter. All the feats IŽd get could be quite useful in making a melee monster. I'd probably go for warblade - I just prefer the style of the various maneuvers compared to "Oh, it's my turn again? Yeah, full round attack..."
yrogerg 06-27-07, 08:50 PM	Actually, isn't the immunity to massive damage a type trait, not because they lack a con score? Don't remember, and I'm away from my books at the moment. Yes. In particular, in everything I've read (except possibly the ELH; those Abominations are weird), it's a trait possessed by the only two types that, by default, lack Con scores. And for the most part, exceptions to the type generalizations (in particular, the Living Construct subtype) tend to reinstate both the MD vulnerability and a Con score at the same time. Whether or not it's explicitly due to a Con score or not, the two tend to go hand-in-hand.
Darakhoranon 06-28-07, 07:54 AM	I'd probably go for warblade - I just prefer the style of the various maneuvers compared to "Oh, it's my turn again? Yeah, full round attack..." Apart from the fact that I donŽt own ToB (I just took a good look at it), even a fighter CAN do more than "Oh yeah, full attack again...". Just take movement feats or things like shield bash, improved trip etc. (or even one or two skill tricks if you can spare the points). That might offer more interesting options than "Oh, itŽs my turn again? Yeah, maneuver X again...". I also enjoy playing characters that are seen as (relatively) weak - but then, I do know what I can do as a, say, fighter and how I can do it. In the end, it only depends on what you prefer. Either a simpler class like fighter or a potentially stronger but also more complicated one like warblade...
Edymnion 06-28-07, 08:27 AM	I'd probably go for warblade - I just prefer the style of the various maneuvers compared to "Oh, it's my turn again? Yeah, full round attack..."Honestly, the fighter that just does full attacks every round is being played by a lazy player. The Fighter is capable of so much more than that, its just the player's fault for not taking advantage of it.
Kaladon7779 06-28-07, 09:45 AM	Neutral Evil, your in it for yourself, no regrets of killing the evil bad guys, and you'll do the job as long as you get your share of the pay. 6 Levels in Fighter, 4 fighter feats, if Human 4 regular feats 2 Levels in Blackguard, Dark Blessing, Charisma mod to all saves Primary Attributes, this is provided you can roll a bonus for these Strength, Bonus damage and bonus attack Constitution, Bonus HP Charisma, Bonus saves for blackguard Wisdom, Bonus to Will save Feats Weapon Focus (Choice Weapon) Weapon Specialization (Choice Weapon) Luck of Heros (1st level only, +1 to all saves and only if your GM allows this feat) Iron Will +2 Will save Lightning Reflex +2 Reflex Save Improved Critical (Choice Weapon) Shield Specalization, Allow you to bash with shield and still keep Shield AC Shield Ward, Apply your shield ac bonus to touch attacks made agaisn't you Weapon Build Weapon and Shield Magical item advice Amulet of Natural Armor, Stacks with normal armor Cloak of Resistance, Bonus Saves Bracers or gaunt of Charisma, Helps increase saves from Blackguard Boots of Striding and Springing, +10 Base Speed Ring of Protection, Deflection Bonus Optional Ring Ring of Energy resistance (Weakest type) Ring of Mind Shielding Immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, know alignment. Magical Shield with good AC Full Plate Extras to consider 2 level of Barbarian, gains you Uncanny Dodge and if you have Mithril Full Plate then you can take advantage of the Fast Movement. If campaign is going towards Epic then might not be a bad idea to take all 10 levels in Blackguard so you can progress as an epic blackguard when you get level 21 worth of experience. Sneak Attack, if somebody is flanking with you then you get to add your Sneak attack damage in from your black guard class. Weapon Mastery (Weapon Type, Slashing, Piercing ect) +2 Attack, +2 damage to all weapons of that type. The rest of levels is up to you on how you want to build, but most of what you can see here is a Starting 8th level character with a Solid AC and Solid Saves. In the end you'll find builds like this tend to have very high survivability in long campaigns.
warforgedMonkey 06-28-07, 01:49 PM	I'd probably go for warblade - I just prefer the style of the various maneuvers compared to "Oh, it's my turn again? Yeah, full round attack..."' i dont have ToB but, a fighter that full attacks every round is just a lazy player. The fighter could trip, disarm, shield bash and lots more to get more benefit than a few dice of damage.. Neutral Evil, your in it for yourself, no regrets of killing the evil bad guys, and you'll do the job as long as you get your share of the pay. 6 Levels in Fighter, 4 fighter feats, if Human 4 regular feats 2 Levels in Blackguard, Dark Blessing, Charisma mod to all saves Primary Attributes, this is provided you can roll a bonus for these Strength, Bonus damage and bonus attack Constitution, Bonus HP Charisma, Bonus saves for blackguard Wisdom, Bonus to Will save Feats Weapon Focus (Choice Weapon) Weapon Specialization (Choice Weapon) Luck of Heros (1st level only, +1 to all saves and only if your GM allows this feat) Iron Will +2 Will save Lightning Reflex +2 Reflex Save Improved Critical (Choice Weapon) Shield Specalization, Allow you to bash with shield and still keep Shield AC Shield Ward, Apply your shield ac bonus to touch attacks made agaisn't you Weapon Build Weapon and Shield Magical item advice Amulet of Natural Armor, Stacks with normal armor Cloak of Resistance, Bonus Saves Bracers or gaunt of Charisma, Helps increase saves from Blackguard Boots of Striding and Springing, +10 Base Speed Ring of Protection, Deflection Bonus Optional Ring Ring of Energy resistance (Weakest type) Ring of Mind Shielding Immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, know alignment. Magical Shield with good AC Full Plate Extras to consider 2 level of Barbarian, gains you Uncanny Dodge and if you have Mithril Full Plate then you can take advantage of the Fast Movement. If campaign is going towards Epic then might not be a bad idea to take all 10 levels in Blackguard so you can progress as an epic blackguard when you get level 21 worth of experience. Sneak Attack, if somebody is flanking with you then you get to add your Sneak attack damage in from your black guard class. Weapon Mastery (Weapon Type, Slashing, Piercing ect) +2 Attack, +2 damage to all weapons of that type. The rest of levels is up to you on how you want to build, but most of what you can see here is a Starting 8th level character with a Solid AC and Solid Saves. In the end you'll find builds like this tend to have very high survivability in long campaigns. i love this build!! (i love evil characters:devil:) but, the build i was looking for is more "take damage-do damage" im thinking about going fighter/juggernaut/frenzied berserker and take the feats like Kaladon advised...
Kaladon7779 06-29-07, 06:47 AM	' but, the build i was looking for is more "take damage-do damage" If your set on being warforged and want to do damage then I'd advise this Only use 1 weapon that is a 1 handed weapon keeping your off hand open for slams. Equipment Battle Fist, makes your slam attacks do 1d8. Feats. Second Slam, During a Full attack round lets you take a second slam attack at a -5. Improved Natural Attack, Will increase your natural attack with the Battle Fist from 1d8 to 2d6. Shocking Fist, You may declare that your Slam attack will have a ‘Shocking Fist’ effect once per round as a Free Action. Choose a number up to your Base Attack Bonus. You take this much damage (DR does not apply). If your Slam attack hits, do +1d4 Electrical damage per point you chose (e.g., taking 3 hp of damage produces in +3d4 Electrical damage). The rest is up to you, but these three feats will go with just about any class build you think off including Warforged Juggernaut. One warning though about the Juggernaut I don't have any books with me but I'm pretty sure you lose the 50% heal option so only Overload Metabolism and Repair Damage is your only option for healing. So make sure you have either a Domain Wizard with the Construct domain or an Artificer in the group so you can be healed. This may not seems like that much of a penalty, but believe me from experience of a player in my group, it can really suck when your only healer either goes unconscious or dies.
Lord_Zzyzx 06-29-07, 02:41 PM	Actually, if you just want to be a melee monster, don't take Juggernaught at all. Get the biggest two handed weapon you can find, go straight Fighter for the feats from PHB2 (like Weapon Supremecy), Adm Body, and spend your normal feats on Improved Damage Reduction. Spending additional feats on Improved DR really seems like a waste. IMHO shrugging off an additional point of damage per hit is not a good use of feats. Especially when, at higher levels, attackers are doing 30 points of damage per hit. Sure, one could make an arguement for "every little bit helps" but it just doesn't seem efficient.
Edymnion 06-29-07, 04:56 PM	Spending additional feats on Improved DR really seems like a waste. IMHO shrugging off an additional point of damage per hit is not a good use of feats. Especially when, at higher levels, attackers are doing 30 points of damage per hit. Sure, one could make an arguement for "every little bit helps" but it just doesn't seem efficient.Yeah, but what else are you going to be spending your level up feats on? Your Fighter Bonus Feats already are going to cover all of your damage dealing potential, and aside from powering up something unrelated to your primary attack (like getting a second slam), there really isn't much you can do with them, when your goal is to max out damage and soak up lots of it in return. So, its not so much of the DR feats being better than anything else in their own right, its a matter of having a bunch of feats left over that can't help your primary goals otherwise.
korcheck 06-29-07, 05:26 PM	Only if your DM doesn't follow the rules. I don't know about your 2h fighters, but mine routinely do 50+ damage per hit, which means I routinely trigger a Save vs. Massive Damage, which is core non-variant rules. Sure, most things will make the save, on all but a natural 1. But then, thats the same as a Vorpal sword automatically killing things on a natural 20, and my SvMD applies to EVERYTHING, unlike Vorpal. Yeah I had to tweek the rule abit to make it more realistic while there is still a good chance to save vs MD there is also a better then natural 1 chance of dying as well. this has worked both for and against myself and other players.
Nived 06-29-07, 07:17 PM	The thing with the dr X/Adamantine is that if a DM chooses to arm his villlians almost exclusively with adamantine weapons he's A) Screwing that one character and B) Going to make the party very very very very very very rich when they sell all those weapons. In most campaigns run by sane DMs specific named villians might have an adamantine weapon, but most encounters that Damage Reduction is still going to count for something.
Edymnion 06-30-07, 12:05 AM	The thing with the dr X/Adamantine is that if a DM chooses to arm his villlians almost exclusively with adamantine weapons he's A) Screwing that one character and B) Going to make the party very very very very very very rich when they sell all those weapons. In most campaigns run by sane DMs specific named villians might have an adamantine weapon, but most encounters that Damage Reduction is still going to count for something.Yeah, the adm. adds 3k gp to the value of the weapon by itself. Even if you don't sell it, use them as the base material when casting Fabricate to make some adm full plate. If the DM is dumb enough to equip everybody the character runs into with one of the most expensive weapon materials in the game, thats fine, because he's also basically giving the party unlimited gold, at which point a few measly points of DR from feats is going to be the least of his worries.