Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LunarWolfPrime 02-24-08, 05:04 PM	I was reading the City of Stormreach manual and say the Iron Watch affiliation and I saw the pic for the Adaments one is a warforged monk, Lather I thinkwas his name. He looks like a warforged with composet plateing I do not know if they left out a alternate monk class feature before lvl 5 or what. But if they didn't, I was wondering would it be balanced for the warforged monk to give up the Wis to AC to allow it to be able to use all of the other monk abilities that you normal can't use in armor as long as they are useing a plateing type that treated as light armor? or maybe give it half of the bonuses that they would normaly get and give up greater flurry, I do not know, I was wondering what you all would say about this.
Hellcow 02-24-08, 05:57 PM	I was reading the City of Stormreach manual and say the Iron Watch affiliation and I saw the pic for the Adaments one is a warforged monk, Lather I thinkwas his name. He looks like a warforged with composet plateing I do not know if they left out a alternate monk class feature before lvl 5 or what. Lathe is a warforged monk with composite plating. He doesn't need any additional features, because a warforged with composite plating is not considered to be wearing armor for purposes of class features (aside from the 5% ASF); only the platings gained with feats trip you up. Essentially, a warforged monk gets a +2 AC from his plating, but suffers the racial -2 penalty to Wisdom. Personally, I would not allow a warforged monk to keep monk abilities while possessing a superior level of plating at the expense of the AC bonus to Wisdom. Given that warforged take a racial penalty to Wisdom as is, this simply isn't much of a loss - and warforged with composite plating are good monks as is.
Edymnion 02-24-08, 07:38 PM	Actually, stop and look at what abilities you lose/get to keep while wearing armor as a monk. You lose speed, but if you're taking Adamantine Body, you don't care about speed in the first place. You lose Wis bonus to AC, but you're already getting far more than that back from the feat... while you keep what I consider the main strength of the monk class, unarmed damage progression. Basically, an Adamantine Body Warforged Monk is quite playable straight out of the book. It doesn't need substitution levels or anything else to still kick major amounts of ass.
Hellcow 02-24-08, 07:45 PM	Basically, an Adamantine Body Warforged Monk is quite playable straight out of the book. Certainly. I agree that the loss of the Wis bonus to AC is trivial compared to the benefit of the Adamantine AC and DR, which is exactly why I wouldn't consider it a trade-off. Personally, I'd consider the more significant sacrifices to be Flurry of Blows and to a lesser degree Evasion. But again - big AC and DR. Personally, rather than put in a feature that lets the huge, heavily armored warforged pretend not to be heavily armored (despite his -5 penalty to skills requiring finesse and his reduced speed of movement), I'd rather keep those two styles of monk distinct - the composite monk who learns to overcome his light armor with speed, and the adamantine monk who simply crushes those who oppose him.
Edymnion 02-24-08, 07:50 PM	Now I suddenly have the urge to do a quicky stat up of a Adm Body Warforged Monk that has been enameled in green lacquer... HULK SMASH!!!
LunarWolfPrime 02-24-08, 08:22 PM	Any coments about mithral plated monk.
LunarWolfPrime 02-24-08, 08:30 PM	Oh if you like this sort of thing with the warforged monks take a look in to the City of Stormreach manual asap and look at the alt classfeature's for Iron Watch monk's. Oh another Q does a WarF Monk get his monk lvl or twice his monk lvl healed with the Wholeness of Body class feature and can any one think of a monk martial art style for warforged monk's only, say like 3 feats taken at the lvl 1,2,6 bonus feats and one more feat to have by lvl 6 in addition to 9 ranks in a skill that fits the style.
LunarWolfPrime 02-24-08, 08:51 PM	Hey can the adamint one still use run.
Edymnion 02-24-08, 08:58 PM	Any coments about mithral plated monk.Please don't triple post. If you want to add something, just edit your last post. That said, there is no point in taking Mithril Body as a WF Monk. You still lose everything the Adm Body WF does, but you don't get nearly as much AC or the DR in return. This one is pretty much all or nothing.
LoneStranger 02-25-08, 06:28 PM	Now I suddenly have the urge to do a quicky stat up of a Adm Body Warforged Monk that has been enameled in green lacquer... HULK SMASH!!! Nah, make him as a Warforged Charger Barbarian, strikes me as a better fit. But for the main discussion here I have to agree that a Warforged Monk with either the basic plating or Adamantine Body is the better way to go, it either winds up balancing out or you come out so much farther ahead than what you lose. Although if the increased speed you get as a monk you lose if you're in heavy armor (can't remember right now, been a while since I played a monk) then the basic composite plating would win that argument.
Edymnion 02-25-08, 07:05 PM	Although if the increased speed you get as a monk you lose if you're in heavy armor (can't remember right now, been a while since I played a monk) then the basic composite plating would win that argument.Yes, the monk speed boost turns off if you wear armor of any kind. But then, you're going for Adamantine Body, thats going to make you slow to begin with.
JulesCARV 02-25-08, 08:05 PM	That said, there is no point in taking Mithril Body as a WF Monk. You still lose everything the Adm Body WF does, but you don't get nearly as much AC or the DR in return. This one is pretty much all or nothing. Although you'll still lose all armor-inhibited monk abilities, mithral isn't all that bad. Maximum dexterity modifier to AC + armor bonus to AC is higher for mithral body (5 dex + 5 armor = 10) than for adamantine body (1 dex + 8 armor = 9). If you have, say, 16 dexterity, you'll only be one behind adamantine body. You'll lose DR/adamantine, but you'll gain, in addition to +10 to speed, the ability to benefit from evasion (which works in light or no armor even for a monk, not just no armor), a mere -1 to ACP rather than -5, and the ability to actually tumble. Sure, you could just go adamantine body, cut back on your dexterity, and throw everything into strength and constitution, but I don't think it's as all or nothing as you're saying.
LunarWolfPrime 02-25-08, 08:11 PM	Although you'll still lose all monk abilities, mithral isn't all that bad. Maximum dexterity modifier to AC + armor bonus to AC is higher for mithral body (5 dex + 5 armor = 10) than for adamantine body (1 dex + 8 armor = 9). If you have, say, 16 dexterity, you'll only be one behind adamantine body. You'll lose DR/adamantine, but you'll gain, in addition to +10 to speed, the ability to benefit from evasion (which works in light or no armor even for a monk, not just no armor), a mere -1 to ACP rather than -5, and the ability to actually tumble. Sure, you could just go adamantine body, cut back on your dexterity, and throw everything into strength and constitution, but I don't think it's as all or nothing as you're saying. Yeah, but can the adamint still use the run feat and what about the effect of the Wholeness of Body class feature on a Warforged monk does it heal you monk lvl or twice your monk lvl.
Edymnion 02-25-08, 08:17 PM	Although you'll still lose all armor-inhibited monk abilities, mithral isn't all that bad. Maximum dexterity modifier to AC + armor bonus to AC is higher for mithral body (5 dex + 5 armor = 10) than for adamantine body (1 dex + 8 armor = 9). If you have, say, 16 dexterity, you'll only be one behind adamantine body. You'll lose DR/adamantine, but you'll gain, in addition to +10 to speed, the ability to benefit from evasion (which works in light or no armor even for a monk, not just no armor), a mere -1 to ACP rather than -5, and the ability to actually tumble. Sure, you could just go adamantine body, cut back on your dexterity, and throw everything into strength and constitution, but I don't think it's as all or nothing as you're saying.Honestly, I had considered that, but I find the DR to be far more valuable than one more potential point of AC. Especially since the Dex won't do much beyond help your AC, since as a monk you won't be making many ranged attacks. And comparing Mithril Fluidity to Improved DR, I'd have to go for Improved DR every time, especially when you already have a good base to build off of. And hey, if the only thing that bypasses it is Adm, think of all the extra money you'll make pawning off all those adm weapons the thugs will have to be using to be a threat to you in melee. ;)
JulesCARV 02-25-08, 08:19 PM	Yeah, but can the adamint still use the run feat and what about the effect of the Wholeness of Body class feature on a Warforged monk does it heal you monk lvl or twice your monk lvl. Use run feat? Yes, although the boost in speed is from 3x base speed to 4x base speed, rather than 4x base speed to 5x base speed. (You'll run 80 feet per round rather than 60 feet in adamantine with the run feat, while a lightly armored or unarmored type would run 150 feet per round rather than 120 feet per round with the run feat, and a medium armored type would run 100 feet rather than 80 feet per round) Wholeness of Body? It works fully for warforged -- 2x monk level healing per day.
JulesCARV 02-25-08, 08:45 PM	And comparing Mithril Fluidity to Improved DR, I'd have to go for Improved DR every time, especially when you already have a good base to build off of. And hey, if the only thing that bypasses it is Adm, think of all the extra money you'll make pawning off all those adm weapons the thugs will have to be using to be a threat to you in melee. ;) Fair enough, although to someone with power attack and a two-hander, DR 2/- is equivalent to +1 AC. Each time you take improved damage reduction adds the equivalent of 0.5 AC, and Aureon have mercy if someone makes a touch attack on you with scorching ray or the like. You'll also never tumble, which just seems to subtract from the coolness of being a monk. Perhaps, on the whole, adamantine body is a more powerful choice for a warforged monk than mithral body, but I wouldn't say it's a clear upgrade.
Kreistor2 02-26-08, 06:41 PM	Fair enough, although to someone with power attack and a two-hander, DR 2/- is equivalent to +1 AC. Each time you take improved damage reduction adds the equivalent of 0.5 AC, and Aureon have mercy if someone makes a touch attack on you with scorching ray or the like. You'll also never tumble, which just seems to subtract from the coolness of being a monk. Perhaps, on the whole, adamantine body is a more powerful choice for a warforged monk than mithral body, but I wouldn't say it's a clear upgrade. I can't agree with that equivalency (DR 2/- =/= 1AC). At level 1, DR 1/- is usually facing 1D6+2 damage, or in that region. Average damage 5.5. DR subtracts 1 for 4.5. (5.5-4.5)/5.5*100% = 18.2%. DR 1/- reduces damage by 18.2%. In terms of AC, since 1AC = 5% reduction in damage, DR 1/- is equivalent to 3.6AC. At high levels, damage is a lot stiffer. A CR7 Hill giant does 2D8+10 if poorly equipped with a greatclub. (3D6+10 w/Greatsword whcih they are proficient with). Average damage = 19. DR 1/- converts to (19-18)/19*100% = 5.2%, the equivalent of 1AC. The effect of low DR decreases fast as level increases. Some DR at low lev el is absolutely great, and I highly recommend it. But for a long term campaign, throwing a lot of feats at low DR (ie. DR < 10) just doesn't come out in the chracter's favour, since monster damage increases much faster than the rate at which you get feats. DR 5/- against something hitting for 30's just isn't effective enough to count. So, tailor your DR to the campaign. If the campaign is expected to cap out in low to mid levels, then by all means, go DR. If you're looking at a campaign headed for high levels, you may find much more effective uses for those feats.
Edymnion 02-26-08, 07:13 PM	The same can be said about AC, as the to hit numbers rise much faster than the AC numbers do. By high levels, its rather assumed that the first hit is going to connect, with AC really only being good for stopping secondary/tertiary attacks. And while the DR may not add up to much in the fact of single strong hits, it still matters over the course of combat. Just to throw out some random numbers, lets assume a lvl 20 WF Fighter with 16 con. Max hp at lvl 1, and mathematical average (5.5) hp ever level thereafter. So thats 13 + 19(5.5+3) = roughly 175 hitpoints. With DR 5, and assuming a single opponent doing 4 attacks per round that each hit, and an average combat length of 5 rounds, thats 20 hits the Fighter has to take. Since he's ignoring 5 points of damage per hit, thats 100 hitpoints of damage over the length of the combat he didn't take, purely from the DR. Thats well over half his hitpoints. So no, while relatively low DR isn't a "OMG, it didn't hurt me at all!" that it is at low levels, it remains viable and important at all levels. One full attack at 4 hits, thats 20 points of damage the character ignores. Thats two levels worth of hitpoints.
Kreistor2 02-26-08, 11:10 PM	The same can be said about AC, as the to hit numbers rise much faster than the AC numbers do. By high levels, its rather assumed that the first hit is going to connect, with AC really only being good for stopping secondary/tertiary attacks. Now that is very much not true. Attack rolls rise based only by two things in general -- BAB and Strength. BAB rises linearly, and Strength somewhat more than linearly, but only for Types that increase in size class (ie. not humanoids or monstrous humanoids which cap at Medium and Large and so are pretty much just glorified PC's) and do not have multiple natural weapons. Weapon wielding NPC's can also get attack bonuses on the weapon, which are commonly capped at 5 (with a few exceptions that might get 6 or 7, in specific situations... but we'll keep this general, so a +5 weapon). Giants are the real beneficiaries here sine they get bigger in size and can wield weapons, but we don't compare aganist just one Type in an analysis like this: you also include animals, vermin, aberrations, etc. AC, on the other hand, has many sources of bonuses. Base Armor+Dex are constant at 7, 8, or 9 unless you add Mithral for 9, 10, or 11. Shield choice is usually early and the base AC from that constant. Howver, AC from magic bonuses on armour and shields do increase with level and add up to +10 (beating the weapon's +5 by 5). Deflection bonus from Mass Shield of Faith, a woefully under-levelled spell, can free up a ring slot. Luck bonuses can come from spells, but are usually low, but they can be added to equipment as nonstandard bonuses (at a higher cost than normal, of course) but it stacks. One single feat can provide +5AC Dodge, albeit at a cost to your own attack roll (Combat Expertise), but that tends not to matter much since monster AC is generally pathetic compared to PC attack bonuses. (Solve that problem by going with the Tome of Battle classes and their standard attacks.) And I'm barely getting started. If you want high AC, you can have it, for only cash. AC, if targetted directly with insight and cash, can easily outstrip monster attack bonuses. (There is one exception -- the Giants. But Outsiders, Dragons, humanoids, etc, etc simply don't raise attack bonuses fast enough to compete with AC. Especially Outsiders. Ugh... had a real problem getting them attack numbers to expect to hit at L13.) Further, by solving the problem with cash instead of feats, you have feats available to help you hit the opponent better (more expensive to raise attack than AC, but not in terms of feats), or do more interesting things on the battlefield. As useful as DR may be, it's boring compared to most feats. With DR 5, and assuming a single opponent doing 4 attacks per round that each hit, and an average combat length of 5 rounds, thats 20 hits the Fighter has to take. Since he's ignoring 5 points of damage per hit, thats 100 hitpoints of damage over the length of the combat he didn't take, purely from the DR. Thats well over half his hitpoints. Well, let's hope your fighter has an excellent healer behind him. You do realize he'll be taking >50 per blow at level 20, right? He's dead after the second round, so he never gets to see that accumulation of HP reach 100. You're spending four feats to reduce damage by 10% at best. Dodge alone knocks off 5% on average (you restricted us to one opponent, heh), and that costs only one feat to do 1/2 the DR job. Combat Expertise does up to 25% for a second feat. And I've still got two more to blow to catch up to your 4. Really, AC does more than that. I'm just running off of the basic 5% to hit rule. If you're being hit only on an 18 and improve your AC by 1 so that you're hit on a 19, the average damage per round you take drops by 33%. It's ~5% if you're being hit on a 2. A +1 to AC can be far more effective than +1 DR, especially if your AC is already stratospheric. Oh, BTW, your DR that soaked 20HP took you 4 feats. One feat does 20HP -- Improved Toughness. it remains viable and important at all levels. No, it just does not, at least not at the DR 1/- per feat rate you're talking about. There are so many other ways to more efficiently use your feats for defense at higher levels than increasing a weak DR. As the DR %age drops off, thanks to the horrible mathematics behind DnD, other aspects of defense become increasingly prominent and efficient. There is no "one size fits all" in this game.
Edymnion 02-27-08, 07:01 PM	Now that is very much not true.Heh, are we playing the same game? A CR 20 Old Red Dragon has an attack bonus of +36 Normal defense setup for a fighter: +5 Full Plate: +14 Dex: +1 +5 Large Shield: +7 +5 Natural Armor: +5 Thats your normal stuff right there, and thats only +27 to your AC. You've still got to come up with another +9 to your armor class just to break even on that thing hitting/missing you. Heck, that Fighter in +5 everything has a +20 to hit just from his class levels. Add in a +5 sword, and he only needs a Strength of 14 to break even, having his attack bonus match his AC bonus. And thats before things like Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus, or a Bane weapon. The higher the level you play, the more the Attack bonus of most of your opponents will outstrip your Armor Class for that first hit, the more your armor becomes about stopping secondary attacks.
Kreistor2 02-27-08, 09:39 PM	+5 Def (Mass Shield of Faith or Ring of Prot) +5 Luck (Item or Spell. See page 285, Armor(other) for costing) +5 Insight (Item or Spell. Psionics are good for Insight bonuses.) Further, that Full Plate can be Mithral for another +2 Dex. That's +17 so far (you requested at least 9), and I'm just getting started. So, I'm at AC 54 without Dodge, Combat Ref, or a Profane/Sacred bonus. (Oh, I'm running at x4, too.) Combat Reflexes for another +5, or Improved for more. Hey, how about a Profane bonus to AC? Check page 285: it's allowed and there are costing rules for it. So AC64 so far. Can I get more? Heck, yeah. Frankly, I prefer a Mithral BP to Full Plate, when going for AC. It's -1AC, but it's light, so I'm at full move while you're trudging along at 2/3rds. Also the +5 Dex allowance increases Touch AC. I'll stick with FP, thoguh, just to keep the numbers consistent. And I can keep going, if you're wondering. It is possible to get yourself an actual Natural Armour bonus. If you look closely at the Amulet of Natural Armour, it increases one's natural armour bonus, so it stacks. (A dragon can wear one to increase its AC. One of my favorite items for baddies since it's effective AC and fairly cheap for reward purposes.) Get a NA bonus to start with, and you wind up with a >+5 NA bonus, which you seem to think is a cap of some sort. One source is an item that polymorphs you. I like the Stone Giant form (though you have to buy your armour, shield, and weapons a size class larger). Really nice NA and Dex. Poly 3x/day, Stone Giant only to bring down the cost. Five ranks of Tumble... even cross class are very nice. Fighting Defensively knocks off 4 attack, but you're getting 3AC with Tumble. Dodge bonuses stack, so AC 67. Your fighter had, what, +27 to hit? Right now you need to roll a 40. Heh, so, to get to where you hit on a 19, you need to find another +21 in attack bonuses. What was this about the first attack always hitting? Well, for that to be true, you need to get to a 2, so +39 in bonuses. I think my challenge to you is going to be a little harder to fulfill. Edy, you clearly do not know what is possible for high level players. Heck, my PC's were getting to 40+ AC at L13, fully buffed. If you think a tank is going to cap out at 37AC at L20, you really need to break out the calculator and start running some numbers. AC is cheap. Let's start lower level. Mith BP +1 = 5350 Mith Buckler +1 = 2165 (Note: no ACP, so anyone can wear without penalty) AoNatural Armour +1 = 2000 Ring of Prot +1 = 2000 Ring of Luck AC +1 = 2500 Bracers of Insight AC +1 = 2500 Gloves of Dex +2 = 4000 Base Dex 18 = free AC = 27, Gold = 25515 As you go up in level, raising all of those different bonuses is much, much cheaper than raising a single one. (Ie. Gaining +2 AC from raising Armor to +2 and Shield to +2 costs 6000GP, where raising Armor to +3 costs +8000.) A character that focuses on AC and knows the item creation rules will grossly outstrip offense, which just cannot do the same thing. Even if you translate the weapon to armour rules into Insight bonuses to hit, raising bonuses costs 2x as much as Armour, so for every +1 attack you buy, the defender can buy +2 AC. Maybe that was confusing. Let me go with an example. There are rules for creating an Insight bonus to AC. There are no rules permitting an Insight bonus to attack rolls. (Ie. AC can do it, attack can't, so attack flat out loses the cash war.) A Dm might permit this, however. So, how much does an Insight bonus to attack cost? Well, the closest equivalency is the Weapon bonus cost compared to Armour bonus cost. Weapon bonuses cost 2x Armour bonuses, so Insight to attack should cost 2x Insight bonus to AC. Now, using that rule, you raise your attack bonus from +2 to +3. For 1/2 the cash, I can raise my Insight bonus to AC from 2 to 3 and my Profane bonus from +2 to +3, since it follows the same costing rules as Insight. You get +1, I get +2. Now, a DM is welcome to cost it differently, but I don't think many would. It seems obvious to me. Just remember, by the RAW, you can't make an item to do these attack bonuses at all, so really, you're stuck with just the weapon bonus and a Str item, for a total +8. I can get +30 out of Armour, Shield, Insight, Deflection, Luck, and Sacred/Profane bonuses. If you think it's expensive, you're wrong. Item creation is cheap, and with Artificers and the item creation feats in the ECS that reduce XP and GP costs, it's easier in Eberron than any other realm. You're just not even close to what a creative player can do with AC and item creation.
Edymnion 02-27-08, 09:55 PM	You're just not even close to what a creative player can do with AC and item creation.Correction, I'm not even close to what the CharOp boards can do. I'm sure they can munch out anything, but I'm talking normal gameplay. Not "I combed every book in existence and made up some custom stuff too". And yes, if you built an entire character around nothing but getting the highest AC in the game, you could be unhittable. But I consider that to be unrealistic, as I honestly don't know any DM that would let someone play "A character with the highest AC in the game, I found the build on the CharOp boards!". But, I have no intention of getting into a "who can out-twink who" contest here. You wanna believe that AC is the end all be all because of what is theoretically possible, you go right ahead. Me? In all my gaming experience, I have found time and time again that real characters have lower AC bonuses than their opponents have attack bonuses. And considering that this is entirely off topic for this thread, I'm going to leave it at "If your WF Monk is going to take a body feat, take Adamantine Body, because the AC and Damage Reduction outweighs the speed and lower check penalties of Mithril Body".
Kreistor2 02-28-08, 08:17 AM	Nothing I quoted required anything more than the DMG, so stuff your "I combed every book in existence" quote: that was a horribly inaccurate characterization. DMG only, Edy. CORE. My players did this, and I wouldn't call them anything more than normal people, and none of them have ever visited a character optimization forum in their lives. One of them got heavy into the Item Creation rules (not uncommon for Artificers: he was designing one as an alternate at the time) and noticed the rule for creating odd bonuses to AC. He realized spending money on a Luck bonus was smarter than a Deflection bonus when the Favoured Soul was opening every combat with Mass Shield of Faith, even though it cost 25% more. Not a big leap of logic, if you ask me. That's all it takes: just one person reading the item creation rules in the DMG. Hardly advanced optimization. Pretty much a CharOps 101 level test. But, I have no intention of getting into a "who can out-twink who" contest here. You started this, not me. Don't get angry with me if you were wrong. In all my gaming experience, I have found time and time again that real characters have lower AC bonuses than their opponents have attack bonuses. I've been in two campaigns that did this. Even if you just go the Ring of Protection, Armour and Shield, and Amulet of NA route, it's still easy, cheap, and standard loot (no Item creation rules). Attack bonuses just can't keep up with that many sources of AC. And I'll leave it at: Know your campaign: tailor your feat choice to the expected level to improve your character's survivaibilty. For low to mid-level campaigns, go with DR (be it Adamantine Body or some other for another race). For mid to high level campaigns, go with AC and look for higher DR from spells.
LunarWolfPrime 02-28-08, 08:08 PM	Hey what about takeing lvl's in pali and then the ardent fist PRC with a Mith plated WFM?
Edymnion 02-29-08, 09:28 AM	There's always Heavy Armor Optimization.
LoneStranger 02-29-08, 06:19 PM	There's always Heavy Armor Optimization. Out of Races of Stone you mean? I seem to remember needing to be a Dwarf to qualify for that feat, but I'm going off of memory right now so I'm more than likely wrong. If a Warforged is able to take Heavy Armor Optimization and the Greater version as well that would be fantastic with Adamantine Body. Dang now I'll have to check into that when I get home from work tonight, you made me curious now.