Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lvl1_commoner 02-01-08, 08:09 PM	does the warforged composite plating count as armor to prevent monk abilities?
Edymnion 02-01-08, 08:11 PM	does the warforged composite plating count as armor to prevent monk abilities?Default plating, no. Any of the other body feats, yes. Which makes the WF one of the most powerful monk races in the game.
AlHazred 02-07-08, 11:46 PM	Default plating, no. Any of the other body feats, yes....except Unarmored Body, which probably didn't need to be said, but... Which makes the WF one of the most powerful monk races in the game.Except, of course, for their penalty to Wisdom.
Edymnion 02-08-08, 08:39 AM	Except, of course, for their penalty to Wisdom.Which is nothing. All that does is give them a -1 to their AC, and the composite armor gives them +2, for a net +1 AC, and a legit foundation to enchant upon without paying through the nose for Bracers of Armor. Basically, the Wis penalty is meaningless.
Kreistor2 02-08-08, 12:15 PM	It's also balanced by the Con bonus, which increases HP. Though they might get hit 5% more often, they've got more than 5% more HP to handle the damage. The 25% fortitude and immunities also more than counter the -2 Wis. The monk takes crits less often than other characters, also reducing overall damage taken/round.
Edymnion 02-08-08, 12:41 PM	Yes, there really is not a better LA +0 monk race in the game than a Warforged. Which is one reason that no, there should be no racial substitution levels for WF Monk, just because some racial and class abilities overlap (like immunity to poison). Remember, for racial substitution levels, what you get in return cannot be more powerful than what you give up. A WF Monk giving up the Monk's immunity to poison has not actually lost anything, and hence should not gain anything.
JulesCARV 02-08-08, 08:41 PM	Well, the wisdom penalty also affects quivering palm DC and, if the monk goes for stunning fist at 1st level, stunning fist DC, but overall the point stands. Also, battlefists are probably at least as much of a factor in the power of warforged monks as composite plating. At any rate, though, I'd say that in addition to unarmored body and default composite plating, psiforged body also doesn't create problems for warforged monks.
AlHazred 02-08-08, 11:22 PM	I wasn't saying that the warforged was a bad choice for monk. But there are one or two negative aspects. Do they balance the positive? No. But then, as you say, warforged are one of the best LA +0 races, assuming you're going for munchkin factor. Conversely, hobgoblins are one of the worst LA +1 races if you're going for munchkin factor. Yet people play them anyway. It's all about the flavor. Don't think, "What would be the most awesomeist munchkinized monk EVAR?!?" but rather, "What would make a warforged become a monk? Perhaps the idea that, as warforged are 'forged to be perfect weapons' no other weapon is needed? Or is it a desire to rid oneself of the trappings of war while still recognizing one's purpose in life? What would such a person eventually become?"
Kreistor2 02-09-08, 02:04 AM	A WF Monk giving up the Monk's immunity to poison has not actually lost anything, and hence should not gain anything. That's not how the theory goes, though. Basic abilities balance players against each other. In theory, a warforged is supposed to be balanced with a basic human at Level 1. (This may not be true, but it is supposed to be.) When that is the case, any time the human gains something, the warforged should, or else the warforged falls behind the human and balance is lost. Racial substitution levels are intended to replace levels at which a particular race fails to gain something when another race does gain something. If the human gains something at Level 4, but the warforged does not because of the details of the warforged race, then player vs. player balance needs to be restored, and for that level, the Warforged needs a substitution. If you believe that the warforged is, in fact, overpowered for a +0 LA race, then by all means, there should be no racial substitution levels, because the human is playing catch-up in the first place. But if they are balanced, then racial substitution levels are an excellent idea. It has nothing to do with "losing" anything. That argument will never permit any gain, since it is extremely rare to see a class actually remove an ability from a player: all classes are about gain, not loss. (There are a few exceptions like Wf Juggernaut.) No one losses anything when levelling up, Edy, so your argument can be used to justify absurd situations: a class that gains 0 BAB, no HP, no special abilities, and no saves over 10 levels, for instance. The character doesn't lose any BAB over the 10 levels, so there is no need to correct the lack of gain; nevermind that they're falling behind the rising NPC AC: the character itself isn't losing anything while the other classes improve. Characters should gain in lock step with the other PC's. Glossing over one character's lack of improvement can result in a weakened character that is incapable of meeting the challenges the DM expects the character to be able to handle.
JulesCARV 02-09-08, 03:47 AM	I've never seen the point of racial substitution levels as being to give the race in question some alternative feature when the default feature would be redundant. For most races and most classes, this just isn't applicable -- what does a wizard gain that's beneficial for a human but redundant for a changeling, besides the possibility of taking disguise self? The changeling wizard isn't about making up for changling redundancies as wizards by adding something that's uniquely beneficial to changelings. Rather, it's about making a wizard that's thematically changeling-like: dual specialization in transmutation and illusion, morphic familiar, etc. In fact, insofar as a changeling could take advantage of her innate racial abilities and eliminate redundancy by banning illusion or transmutation, the changeling wizard substitution levels run counter to optimal redundancy elimination. (Although given how much else those schools are used for besides disguise and alter self, this is a bit of a tenuous argument) This isn't some kind of "powergaming is evil!" type rant where I claim "your ranger should be taking skill focus (profession (lumberjack)) at first level rather than point blank shot, or else you're a munchkin!" or anything similarly silly. It's just a factual observation of how racial substitution levels tend to be designed. The point doesn't seem to be a straight-up power boost with the intention of eliminating redundancies or incompabilities between race and class, but rather a subtle alteration of the class to fit the race better from a thematic perspective. Sometimes racial substitution levels actually are more powerful (elf wizard, probably), and sometimes they're weake (half-elf fighter, probably), but the main idea is thematic. So, could the monk class have warforged racial substitution levels which make the monks feel more warforged-ish? Maybe. In such substitution levels, might 5th and 7th levels be among those replaced, scrapping purity of body and diamond body? Again, maybe. The compensation might be fairly weak, though, given that a warforged monk isn't giving anything up by taking such a substitution level (barring reduced hit die, skill points, or the like). I'm not sure, though, exactly what would be thematically appropriate for a warforged monk. I don't really see anything that jumps out at me as some alteration that could be made to the monk to make them more warforged-ish. This could just be a failure of my own creativity, but personally, I can't think of what a warforged monk should get that other monks shouldn't.
kelvinaw273 02-09-08, 12:10 PM	I can think of one way you could change the warforged monk, if you think of the theme of a warforged as a living weapon, a sort of animate battering ram, then there are some substitutions you could make that are ... interesting: Damage resistance: In place of the Monks AC bonus, instead take damage resistance equal to what the AC bonus would be for a monk of the same level. 5th level: In place of purity of body, gain ki strike (cold iron). 7th level: In place of diamond body, gain ki strike (silver) Just a few ideas ...
AlHazred 02-09-08, 12:18 PM	Those abilities are a nice thematic fit, although it seems to me that such a warforged, following a martial and philosophical discipline that leads to such powers, is on his way toward becoming a Construct at 20th level, not an Outsider.
Edymnion 02-09-08, 05:31 PM	That's not how the theory goes, though. Basic abilities balance players against each other. In theory, a warforged is supposed to be balanced with a basic human at Level 1. (This may not be true, but it is supposed to be.) When that is the case, any time the human gains something, the warforged should, or else the warforged falls behind the human and balance is lost.Prove it. Show me an official substitution level set that takes away something that is of no use to the character, and then gives it something that is.
Syltorian 02-09-08, 05:52 PM	Prove it. Show me an official substitution level set that takes away something that is of no use to the character, and then gives it something that is. Kalashtar Soulknife, Level 1: Align Mind Blade to replace Wild Talent; the text specifically mentions that they get this because "the character does not need this feat to materialize his mind blade" (Races of Eberron, p.125). Warforged Paladin, Level 3: Immunity to Stunning to replace Divine Health (Races of Eberron, p.132). This is basically the same as the proposed replacing of a warforged monk's immunity to disease by something extra.
Edymnion 02-09-08, 09:30 PM	Figures, RoE.
Kreistor2 02-10-08, 01:29 AM	I don't know why that surprises you. (I mean that it exists to be quoted.) That's a basic concept in RPG's dating back to the early 80's. (I'm thinking of the Champions/Hero system specifically, but there were others. Champions is the best example because of comments like "An advantage that does not provide the character with an advantage is not an advantage!" in big bold text. In this case, a character that is immune to disease that gains immunity to disease gains from another source gains nothing, and therefore should gain something else to compensate, since the character was intended to gain something at that level. Champions uses a points based system, so in that system, he would pay nothing for the second immunity, and would therefore have points to gain something else with, but the parallel should be obvious.) DnD is only now playing catch-up to systems that were incorporating player balance more than 20 years ago. None of this is new: they're only finally getting around to these basic concepts, because the old guard from the TSR days that actually believed in things like Vancian magic or 1st Ed psionics are now few. Now we're getting unlimited casting as the default for all casters. There's an old design decision pried out of the system: we now know that the warlock was introduced to test that concept, that it didn't annihilate worlds, or break basic game balance. They only needed to ensure the amplitude of the spells compensated for the increased frequency of casting. Here's another dead design decision. The basic unbalanced classes in original DnD are also disappearing, albeit slowly. They're finally understanding that the original balance of Wizard being weak at low levels and strong at high levels (and fighter vice versa) is meaningless in a system where characters have high death rates. That wizard that spent all that time waiting to match the other PC's power never sees the high level power he payed levels of frustration to earn, because the campaign ends abruptly due to RL concerns or character death. (The fighter that dies, on the other hand, redesigns as a Wizard and gets the power without earning it by levelling through the weak levels.) High level play can not be guaranteed, and low level might be skipped entirely. Campaign can comprise 3-4 levels, so that balance perspective is moot far too often. Basic player vs. player balance at all levels is becoming increasingly important in DnD, finally. Cripes, they're redesigning the classes to fit core roles... which is a basic complaint that MMORPG's have had to face since the release of Everquest. Surprise! It's a complaint in P&P, too, and it is being dealt with. Horror! RPG'ing is RPG'ing, whether you're playing with mini's or in 3rd person perspective on your PC. Such a horrid concept for people to deal with. Computer players actually capable of roleplaying in a computer controlled setting. Yeah, I'm ranting. Big deal. What I'm saying is that none of this is new. The concept I presented above has been present in RPG's for decades, and the designers at WotC are familiar with them, and are clearly experimenting wiht and introducing the next generation to them: this is something DnD has not done, classically, but it is now a part of DnD. Change, great change, is in the air. 3.0 broke a lot of old design rules, but maintained many in order to please the old guard. 4e is breaking even more, and coming pretty close to saying that they'll abandon any old decision that interferes with good gaming. These concepts are only new to people that think that only WotC has (and had) the only experts on RPG gaming systems. DnD has held onto basic concepts that are horrendously poor design decisions made 25 years ago by Gary Gygax and co. for years, only because they think it will stop being DnD if they mess with them. (I'm not disparaging GG: the man didn't have anything to compare to at the time, so he made the decision he thought were good. I'd have made just as many mistakes as he did, though I like to think different ones. The mistake was made by those that followed him, in their treatment of those decisions as Commandments, instead of ideas to be replaced as better ones came along. They were the first decisions, so they were the most likely to be the worst, since there was no other decisions to compare against for so long.) Guess what? MtG killed many of the gaming companies that published into the early 90's, and so DnD is now the only serious game in town. (Actually, TSR almost died, too, and was rescued by WotC, the makers of the game that nearly killed DnD. Irony.) The WotC RPG designers can do anything now, and it will still feel like DnD because there's nothing else worth spending time to learn. How many readers of this message actually know what Champions was, or what rules it used? GURPS? Twilight 2000? DnD can rip from all of those systems, and no one will know; instead, they'll think it was an WotC invention because they simply can't know what those other systems did. And, actually, in order to know what is classic DnD and what isn't, you actually have to know the old DnD versions' rules, too, and it's not like a new, modern player has easy access to even 2.0, much less 1.0. How many modern players have seen 1st Ed to compare against in order to know what concepts in 3.5 actually trace back to Gary, and which are new concepts. No matter what change they make, the most common modern buyer will think all the changes were WotC employee inventions, because so few know just how many systems existed before MtG killed RPG's. So, Edy, this is what it comes down to: I presented that basic idea of game balance not because it is inherently a part of DnD, but because it is inherently a part of good gaming, and now that WotC can rid itself of the old stupid concepts that dragged it down as an unbalanced system for decades, it is and will divest itself of those old concepts. The new guard are clearly (from 4e discussions) abandoning the old guard beliefs. Basic player balance is becoming increasingly important, as evidenced from the many comments about the development of 4e. That those levels quoted by Syltorian exist is proof that the good old ideas of other systems are becoming the good new ideas of DnD. DnD is in a much better position to repair itself than it ever was, but it needs to move fast, and it looks to be doing so. RPG's seem to be making a comeback, and if that happens, we'll see more new systems coming out. With new systems come competition, and if DnD holds onto those old, undesirable concepts, DnD will become like it used to be: just one more system amongst dozens of excellent contenders, and poor design decisions will place it in critical care, like it was in the mid-90's. DnD can afford to change and incorporate basic common sense ideas like sacrifice deserves reward, failure to advance with others means you fall behind, and that everyone at the table needs to have fun. If that means Vancian magic has to die, then Vancian magic goes in the trashbin. If that means redundant abilities need to be replaced by nonredundant abilities, then it will be so.
kelvinaw273 02-10-08, 08:54 AM	Those abilities are a nice thematic fit, although it seems to me that such a warforged, following a martial and philosophical discipline that leads to such powers, is on his way toward becoming a Construct at 20th level, not an Outsider. Good idea - we can add that in as the 20th replacement level :cool:
AlHazred 02-10-08, 08:07 PM	Good idea - we can add that in as the 20th replacement level :cool: No, the path for that is the Warforged Juggernaut PrC. I'd leave the monk as is other than those three levels -- it's niche protection for the Juggernaut. I see the "Physical Perfection" that the warforged monk strives for, to be Living Construct perfection, not the full Construct variety.
kelvinaw273 02-11-08, 03:41 AM	No, the path for that is the Warforged Juggernaut PrC. I'd leave the monk as is other than those three levels -- it's niche protection for the Juggernaut. I see the "Physical Perfection" that the warforged monk strives for, to be Living Construct perfection, not the full Construct variety. Good point.
korcheck 02-11-08, 04:49 PM	Holy crap, Kreistor2 you make me feel old. I know every game that you're speaking of and have played them all. Ahh memories, the green character sheets, elves and dwarves as a class..... that was DnD. Oh, and the impossible mathamatical knowledge needed to play gurps. lol! Point based games were/are the ultimate unequal-equalizer.
AlHazred 02-11-08, 05:46 PM	The WotC RPG designers can do anything now, and it will still feel like DnD because there's nothing else worth spending time to learn. How many readers of this message actually know what Champions was, or what rules it used?Actually, I will take exception to this. The longest lasting campaigns (and thus, those with highest turnover and the most "new people introduced to P&P RPGs) is Hero System in its various incarnations (Fantasy Hero and Champions predominate). Of my circle of friends, most of those who know D&D, also know at least one of the other games you mentioned, and play them at Cons as a first priority. They don't play home games anymore (too many RL concerns, too much family stuff, etc.) but that's okay as long as they can spend two or three weekends a year remembering why they loved RPGs in the first place. [As a side point, for them, campaign-style games (RPGA, NAGA, etc.) are the best investment since they have a better chance of a little continuity.] And they know damn well that D&D pioneered none of the mechanics they loved best. Nevertheless, if this is a sore point for you, you would do well to bring it up in its own thread on another part of the boards. I, for one, would be happy to contribute there. Anyway, back to the warforged monk, I'm thinking we leave the rest of the monk levels as they are. All sorts of other monks become Outsiders when they hit 20th, including Monstrous Humanoids, Dragons, and Magical Beasts (and even, humorously enough, other Outsiders, apparently). So, why should warforged be any different just because they're Living Constructs?
Captain_Kobold 02-11-08, 08:10 PM	If you really want to give Warforged Monks something thematically appropriate to replace Purity of Body and Diamond Body, why not half effect then immunity to Rust effects?