Warforged movement question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warforged movement question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Navvik
05-26-07, 07:22 PM in my current group i have the warforged making a major movement across the continent in an act of total war, my more experienced players insist that the warforged fighters and Meleeists in the war party cannot move more than a human even though the warforged cannot be exhausted or have penalities for a forced march. thank you in advance for you help.
Rerecros
05-26-07, 07:34 PM Because warforged do not tire, they can travel much faster than humanoids over a longer period of time, however non-lethal damage still applies.
gensuke626
05-26-07, 07:36 PM Warforged never tire and need no sleep or nourishment...if a warforged army wants to march to a battlefield, I'm certain that they could do it non stop... Heck since they never get tired, you could technically claim that the whole formation ran to the next city...just use some math skills and figureout the time it'd take to them all to get there at a dead sprint.

now on the otherhand, people will likely notice such a large movement of forged, so there would be plenty of advanced warning...technically...

Edit-Ahh yes, non lethal...I forgot about that...so the warforged move at a dead sprint until some of their number fall down due to non lethal damage (Worn joints and the like) then they spend 8 hours give or take making craft checks on those who need it and move on.
tallric_kruush
05-26-07, 07:44 PM Does a creature immune to fatigue even take non-lethal damage from such extended travel? (Time for me to refresh my rules knowledge...) I do like Gensuke's "wear and tear" explanation. It makes the rule more palatable.

I understand its a rules/game-balance issue, but I'd think that would negate part of what made the warforged such effective soldiers. An army that can march (and/or fight for that matter) without letup and without fatigue would be a mighty army indeed.
Navvik
05-26-07, 07:44 PM in this particular instance a few warfogred ( in a group of 3 or 4) managed to make it to sharn and back in a considerably shorter time period than it takes their fleshy counterparts. play ground to a halt due to their lack of acceptance that the forged moved faster than them and destroyed a city of druids. quite an ingenious hook if i do say so myself
gensuke626
05-26-07, 07:48 PM in this particular instance a few warfogred ( in a group of 3 or 4) managed to make it to sharn and back in a considerably shorter time period than it takes their fleshy counterparts. play ground to a halt due to their lack of acceptance that the forged moved faster than them and destroyed a city of druids. quite an ingenious hook if i do say so myself

part one of that bit I can accept...travel shouldn't be a problem...

Now destroying a "City of Druids"...that sounds a lot less plausible...
tallric_kruush
05-26-07, 07:50 PM in this particular instance a few warfogred ( in a group of 3 or 4) managed to make it to sharn and back in a considerably shorter time period than it takes their fleshy counterparts. play ground to a halt due to their lack of acceptance that the forged moved faster than them and destroyed a city of druids. quite an ingenious hook if i do say so myself

Even with non-lethal damage working against them (as stated above), a party of warforged should be able to move further without rest than most fleshies. That's as simple as having a high Con score.

It's a shame your group let that derail an evening. That's what happens, at times, when the players insist they know more than the DM. Sometimes they might indeed know more, but the game must go on. How do they know that the 'forged simply outran them? Maybe magic was involved...?
Lord Nat
05-26-07, 09:43 PM Not JUST a city of druids it was Greenheart (or whatever the main druid city is).

I mean come on freaking 20th level tree alone can take most of them easy.
gensuke626
05-26-07, 09:57 PM Not JUST a city of druids it was Greenheart (or whatever the main druid city is).

I mean come on freaking 20th level tree alone can take most of them easy.

3 to 4 Forged razed Greenheart? o_O

Does not compute...but ok...if it works for that game...who am I to judge?
tallric_kruush
05-26-07, 10:06 PM Not JUST a city of druids it was Greenheart (or whatever the main druid city is).

I mean come on freaking 20th level tree alone can take most of them easy.

:uh-huh:

Maybe he meant 3 or 4 thousand....?
Edymnion
05-26-07, 11:11 PM Does a creature immune to fatigue even take non-lethal damage from such extended travel?Yes. Read the rules for Forced March. You take non-lethal damage from the forced march, and become fatigued from that damage. You do not take damage because you are fatigued. The WF still take non-lethal damage, they just don't get tired from it, and WF heal from non-lethal damage just like everybody else, so they can essentially force march until they fall over inert, "sleep" for a few hours to heal the non-lethal, and then start marching again.
tallric_kruush
05-27-07, 12:05 PM Yes. Read the rules for Forced March. You take non-lethal damage from the forced march, and become fatigued from that damage. You do not take damage because you are fatigued. The WF still take non-lethal damage, they just don't get tired from it, and WF heal from non-lethal damage just like everybody else, so they can essentially force march until they fall over inert, "sleep" for a few hours to heal the non-lethal, and then start marching again.

Thanks for doing my work for me.;) I got a little lazy with the rules, there. If I had thought of the relationship between non-lethal damage and fatigue for just a moment before posting, I'd have answered my own question.

If I were writing a novel featuring a 'forged-like race, they'd definitely be immune to the rigors of a hardmarch. It fits the flavor of the race. In-game, though, it would definitely be unbalancing, as Navvik's players contended.
gelalshawr
05-27-07, 04:33 PM Yes. Read the rules for Forced March. You take non-lethal damage from the forced march, and become fatigued from that damage. You do not take damage because you are fatigued. The WF still take non-lethal damage, they just don't get tired from it, and WF heal from non-lethal damage just like everybody else, so they can essentially force march until they fall over inert, "sleep" for a few hours to heal the non-lethal, and then start marching again.

I don't know if it was covered somewhere else, but is healing from non-lethal damage not considered natural healing? Because WF cannot heal naturally, so can they heal from non-lethal damage without aid?
gensuke626
05-27-07, 04:43 PM I thought that non lethal damage healed whenever normal dmamage was healed...thus my "wear and tear" + 8hours of repair explanation...
gelalshawr
05-27-07, 04:54 PM I thought that non lethal damage healed whenever normal dmamage was healed...thus my "wear and tear" + 8hours of repair explanation...

that makes sense, but I don't know if WF have the ability to just "sleep off" non-lethal damage like Edy is suggesting.

EDIT: upon looking through the damage section on page 146 of the PHB 3.5 it seems that healing nonlethal damage is not classified as "natural healing," so Edy's statement is correct.
gensuke626
05-27-07, 05:08 PM Interesting...so what would happen if the most damaged Warforged slept while some of their most resilient comrades used craft to repair the damage? Hmm...Increased healing time?
Rerecros
05-27-07, 07:12 PM Warforged heal non-lethal damage at an hourly rate just like everyone else, no repairs needed.
Edymnion
05-27-07, 08:40 PM Yes, WF heal non-lethal and ability damage the same way everybody else does.
Its just lethal hitpoint damage they can't heal normally.
Cifer
05-28-07, 06:59 AM And of course then there's Juggernauts who don't even get nonlethal anymore. If you put those together in squads, you'd have impressive maneuverability indeed, especially since they could really hustle or even run the entire day, even carrying their comrades...

For some tables:
I'm assuming 20ft movement rate because of the adamantine plating.
Walking an entire day would mean 48 miles, the speed of an unburdened light horse.
Hustling the day would make 96 miles.
Running the day would be 144 miles or 192 miles with the run feat as long as your terrain is not too obstructed. The only thing that can match this is the lightning rail.
kentonblack
05-28-07, 11:09 PM really, you can combine this together to make on ehell of a fast army, even in their adamantine plating.

RoE-Improved resiliency-immune to nonleathal, lose benefits of fasthealing/regeneration
RoE-Stable footing-+4 vs bullrush and trip(like the dwarf racial ability. No penalties to movement over difficult terrain.

Wow, so, a squad of third level fighters just managed to outrun horses....I like where this is going!

*gets evil DM I deas*:D
Navvik
05-29-07, 12:45 AM really, you can combine this together to make on ehell of a fast army, even in their adamantine plating.

RoE-Improved resiliency-immune to nonleathal, lose benefits of fasthealing/regeneration
RoE-Stable footing-+4 vs bullrush and trip(like the dwarf racial ability. No penalties to movement over difficult terrain.

Wow, so, a squad of third level fighters just managed to outrun horses....I like where this is going!

*gets evil DM I deas*:Dbasically, a group of juggernauts could make it from the mournlands to greentheart in a considerably shorter amount of time that it takes for "fleshies" as i've taken to calling them could. though the problem has been resovled, i think that if the player in question had simply read what i told him, this argument would have never happened. but i will admit LordNat that i got my logistics screwed up
Mort_Q
05-29-07, 09:38 AM NPCs move at the speed of plot.

i.e. the arrive whenever it makes the encounter the most interesting.
kentonblack
05-29-07, 12:43 PM NPCs move at the speed of plot.

i.e. the arrive whenever it makes the encounter the most interesting.

okay, maybe I should have just said this *shamed*
Cifer
05-29-07, 12:59 PM NPCs move at the speed of plot.

i.e. the arrive whenever it makes the encounter the most interesting.
The problem with this approach is that it can make player tactics and strategies somewhat irrelevant. It's one way to play if you prefer drama over playermade decisions, but it's hardly the only one. If the players know that they can hurry as much as they want, but the enemies always get to their target just in time, it becomes easy to just stroll along and not to worry how to move faster.
Badace36
05-29-07, 07:52 PM The problem with this approach is that it can make player tactics and strategies somewhat irrelevant. It's one way to play if you prefer drama over playermade decisions, but it's hardly the only one. If the players know that they can hurry as much as they want, but the enemies always get to their target just in time, it becomes easy to just stroll along and not to worry how to move faster.

Perhaps a good idea then, is that NPC's, when uninhibited by PC actions, move at the speed of plot. That's how I do it. If the PC's wanna stop them, then I figure the logic of their stuff out, otherwise it's just frazzlenazzled away.
Mort_Q
05-29-07, 08:02 PM What the players do drives the plot.

If they dawdle, they arrive too late. If they hurry, the there defenses are well dug in. I'm not suggesting railroading anything... only that you don't need to do any math. Just make it reasonable.
kentonblack
05-30-07, 08:10 PM reasonable being the operative word.

I firmly beleive that you dont need to say "i doit because Im the DM".

I now beleive you can say "I do it because there are enough sourcebooks with rules and feats and skill tricks and powers and trunames and invocations that it can happen in one of thirty ways. ergo, it happens"
gensuke626
05-30-07, 08:24 PM Just pray your players don't ask for specific methods and page references. (Though, admittedly, if a player did that to me for no other reason than to agravate me, I'd kill his character and tell him to find a new group.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Navvik 05-26-07, 07:22 PM	in my current group i have the warforged making a major movement across the continent in an act of total war, my more experienced players insist that the warforged fighters and Meleeists in the war party cannot move more than a human even though the warforged cannot be exhausted or have penalities for a forced march. thank you in advance for you help.
Rerecros 05-26-07, 07:34 PM	Because warforged do not tire, they can travel much faster than humanoids over a longer period of time, however non-lethal damage still applies.
gensuke626 05-26-07, 07:36 PM	Warforged never tire and need no sleep or nourishment...if a warforged army wants to march to a battlefield, I'm certain that they could do it non stop... Heck since they never get tired, you could technically claim that the whole formation ran to the next city...just use some math skills and figureout the time it'd take to them all to get there at a dead sprint. now on the otherhand, people will likely notice such a large movement of forged, so there would be plenty of advanced warning...technically... Edit-Ahh yes, non lethal...I forgot about that...so the warforged move at a dead sprint until some of their number fall down due to non lethal damage (Worn joints and the like) then they spend 8 hours give or take making craft checks on those who need it and move on.
tallric_kruush 05-26-07, 07:44 PM	Does a creature immune to fatigue even take non-lethal damage from such extended travel? (Time for me to refresh my rules knowledge...) I do like Gensuke's "wear and tear" explanation. It makes the rule more palatable. I understand its a rules/game-balance issue, but I'd think that would negate part of what made the warforged such effective soldiers. An army that can march (and/or fight for that matter) without letup and without fatigue would be a mighty army indeed.
Navvik 05-26-07, 07:44 PM	in this particular instance a few warfogred ( in a group of 3 or 4) managed to make it to sharn and back in a considerably shorter time period than it takes their fleshy counterparts. play ground to a halt due to their lack of acceptance that the forged moved faster than them and destroyed a city of druids. quite an ingenious hook if i do say so myself
gensuke626 05-26-07, 07:48 PM	in this particular instance a few warfogred ( in a group of 3 or 4) managed to make it to sharn and back in a considerably shorter time period than it takes their fleshy counterparts. play ground to a halt due to their lack of acceptance that the forged moved faster than them and destroyed a city of druids. quite an ingenious hook if i do say so myself part one of that bit I can accept...travel shouldn't be a problem... Now destroying a "City of Druids"...that sounds a lot less plausible...
tallric_kruush 05-26-07, 07:50 PM	in this particular instance a few warfogred ( in a group of 3 or 4) managed to make it to sharn and back in a considerably shorter time period than it takes their fleshy counterparts. play ground to a halt due to their lack of acceptance that the forged moved faster than them and destroyed a city of druids. quite an ingenious hook if i do say so myself Even with non-lethal damage working against them (as stated above), a party of warforged should be able to move further without rest than most fleshies. That's as simple as having a high Con score. It's a shame your group let that derail an evening. That's what happens, at times, when the players insist they know more than the DM. Sometimes they might indeed know more, but the game must go on. How do they know that the 'forged simply outran them? Maybe magic was involved...?
Lord Nat 05-26-07, 09:43 PM	Not JUST a city of druids it was Greenheart (or whatever the main druid city is). I mean come on freaking 20th level tree alone can take most of them easy.
gensuke626 05-26-07, 09:57 PM	Not JUST a city of druids it was Greenheart (or whatever the main druid city is). I mean come on freaking 20th level tree alone can take most of them easy. 3 to 4 Forged razed Greenheart? o_O Does not compute...but ok...if it works for that game...who am I to judge?
tallric_kruush 05-26-07, 10:06 PM	Not JUST a city of druids it was Greenheart (or whatever the main druid city is). I mean come on freaking 20th level tree alone can take most of them easy. :uh-huh: Maybe he meant 3 or 4 thousand....?
Edymnion 05-26-07, 11:11 PM	Does a creature immune to fatigue even take non-lethal damage from such extended travel?Yes. Read the rules for Forced March. You take non-lethal damage from the forced march, and become fatigued from that damage. You do not take damage because you are fatigued. The WF still take non-lethal damage, they just don't get tired from it, and WF heal from non-lethal damage just like everybody else, so they can essentially force march until they fall over inert, "sleep" for a few hours to heal the non-lethal, and then start marching again.
tallric_kruush 05-27-07, 12:05 PM	Yes. Read the rules for Forced March. You take non-lethal damage from the forced march, and become fatigued from that damage. You do not take damage because you are fatigued. The WF still take non-lethal damage, they just don't get tired from it, and WF heal from non-lethal damage just like everybody else, so they can essentially force march until they fall over inert, "sleep" for a few hours to heal the non-lethal, and then start marching again. Thanks for doing my work for me.;) I got a little lazy with the rules, there. If I had thought of the relationship between non-lethal damage and fatigue for just a moment before posting, I'd have answered my own question. If I were writing a novel featuring a 'forged-like race, they'd definitely be immune to the rigors of a hardmarch. It fits the flavor of the race. In-game, though, it would definitely be unbalancing, as Navvik's players contended.
gelalshawr 05-27-07, 04:33 PM	Yes. Read the rules for Forced March. You take non-lethal damage from the forced march, and become fatigued from that damage. You do not take damage because you are fatigued. The WF still take non-lethal damage, they just don't get tired from it, and WF heal from non-lethal damage just like everybody else, so they can essentially force march until they fall over inert, "sleep" for a few hours to heal the non-lethal, and then start marching again. I don't know if it was covered somewhere else, but is healing from non-lethal damage not considered natural healing? Because WF cannot heal naturally, so can they heal from non-lethal damage without aid?
gensuke626 05-27-07, 04:43 PM	I thought that non lethal damage healed whenever normal dmamage was healed...thus my "wear and tear" + 8hours of repair explanation...
gelalshawr 05-27-07, 04:54 PM	I thought that non lethal damage healed whenever normal dmamage was healed...thus my "wear and tear" + 8hours of repair explanation... that makes sense, but I don't know if WF have the ability to just "sleep off" non-lethal damage like Edy is suggesting. EDIT: upon looking through the damage section on page 146 of the PHB 3.5 it seems that healing nonlethal damage is not classified as "natural healing," so Edy's statement is correct.
gensuke626 05-27-07, 05:08 PM	Interesting...so what would happen if the most damaged Warforged slept while some of their most resilient comrades used craft to repair the damage? Hmm...Increased healing time?
Rerecros 05-27-07, 07:12 PM	Warforged heal non-lethal damage at an hourly rate just like everyone else, no repairs needed.
Edymnion 05-27-07, 08:40 PM	Yes, WF heal non-lethal and ability damage the same way everybody else does. Its just lethal hitpoint damage they can't heal normally.
Cifer 05-28-07, 06:59 AM	And of course then there's Juggernauts who don't even get nonlethal anymore. If you put those together in squads, you'd have impressive maneuverability indeed, especially since they could really hustle or even run the entire day, even carrying their comrades... For some tables: I'm assuming 20ft movement rate because of the adamantine plating. Walking an entire day would mean 48 miles, the speed of an unburdened light horse. Hustling the day would make 96 miles. Running the day would be 144 miles or 192 miles with the run feat as long as your terrain is not too obstructed. The only thing that can match this is the lightning rail.
kentonblack 05-28-07, 11:09 PM	really, you can combine this together to make on ehell of a fast army, even in their adamantine plating. RoE-Improved resiliency-immune to nonleathal, lose benefits of fasthealing/regeneration RoE-Stable footing-+4 vs bullrush and trip(like the dwarf racial ability. No penalties to movement over difficult terrain. Wow, so, a squad of third level fighters just managed to outrun horses....I like where this is going! gets evil DM I deas:D
Navvik 05-29-07, 12:45 AM	really, you can combine this together to make on ehell of a fast army, even in their adamantine plating. RoE-Improved resiliency-immune to nonleathal, lose benefits of fasthealing/regeneration RoE-Stable footing-+4 vs bullrush and trip(like the dwarf racial ability. No penalties to movement over difficult terrain. Wow, so, a squad of third level fighters just managed to outrun horses....I like where this is going! gets evil DM I deas:Dbasically, a group of juggernauts could make it from the mournlands to greentheart in a considerably shorter amount of time that it takes for "fleshies" as i've taken to calling them could. though the problem has been resovled, i think that if the player in question had simply read what i told him, this argument would have never happened. but i will admit LordNat that i got my logistics screwed up
Mort_Q 05-29-07, 09:38 AM	NPCs move at the speed of plot. i.e. the arrive whenever it makes the encounter the most interesting.
kentonblack 05-29-07, 12:43 PM	NPCs move at the speed of plot. i.e. the arrive whenever it makes the encounter the most interesting. okay, maybe I should have just said this shamed
Cifer 05-29-07, 12:59 PM	NPCs move at the speed of plot. i.e. the arrive whenever it makes the encounter the most interesting. The problem with this approach is that it can make player tactics and strategies somewhat irrelevant. It's one way to play if you prefer drama over playermade decisions, but it's hardly the only one. If the players know that they can hurry as much as they want, but the enemies always get to their target just in time, it becomes easy to just stroll along and not to worry how to move faster.
Badace36 05-29-07, 07:52 PM	The problem with this approach is that it can make player tactics and strategies somewhat irrelevant. It's one way to play if you prefer drama over playermade decisions, but it's hardly the only one. If the players know that they can hurry as much as they want, but the enemies always get to their target just in time, it becomes easy to just stroll along and not to worry how to move faster. Perhaps a good idea then, is that NPC's, when uninhibited by PC actions, move at the speed of plot. That's how I do it. If the PC's wanna stop them, then I figure the logic of their stuff out, otherwise it's just frazzlenazzled away.
Mort_Q 05-29-07, 08:02 PM	What the players do drives the plot. If they dawdle, they arrive too late. If they hurry, the there defenses are well dug in. I'm not suggesting railroading anything... only that you don't need to do any math. Just make it reasonable.
kentonblack 05-30-07, 08:10 PM	reasonable being the operative word. I firmly beleive that you dont need to say "i doit because Im the DM". I now beleive you can say "I do it because there are enough sourcebooks with rules and feats and skill tricks and powers and trunames and invocations that it can happen in one of thirty ways. ergo, it happens"
gensuke626 05-30-07, 08:24 PM	Just pray your players don't ask for specific methods and page references. (Though, admittedly, if a player did that to me for no other reason than to agravate me, I'd kill his character and tell him to find a new group.)