Warforged Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warforged Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shiftkitty
11-25-07, 11:11 AM Given that the Warforged were made to fight, wouldn't an older Warforged start a game with multiple levels in Fighter to represent his veteran status? I can see a relatively new one starting with just one level, but suppose it was an older model, just as sentient, but more "high mileage"?

I ask because after a good first session with the Eberron setting, one of my players, a combat veteran himself (Viet Nam), is interested in trying out a Warforged he's tentatively named "Peacemaker". His concept is of a grizzled old warhorse who, while not backing down from a fight, is more prone to ending them than starting them. I'm not running anything high-level in Eberron right now. How do I explain a "grizzled old warhorse" being only a 1st level, or should I have the player hold on to Peacemaker until things get higher up and then let him start with a few levels (and maybe take advantage of the time to really flesh him out)?
skrap-san
11-25-07, 12:23 PM Well its the returning theme about how low level Eberron is. Personally i usually count 10 years of battle experience or so for every one level as fighter (with modifications of course). You have to remember that professional soldiers usually are warriors. So he could easily be a veteran with a low level.
Tordak
11-25-07, 06:54 PM Also, soldiers don't necessarily see as much action as adventurers do, and it's not always as challenging as the adventurer life (for soldier who survive long enough).
Edymnion
11-25-07, 07:47 PM Yes, ask your veteran friend how much time he spent in active combat (actually shooting and being shot at) versus how much time he spent marching through wetlands, doing standard patrol, etc. Then ask him, of the combat he did see, how much of it was actual hand to hand combat, and how much of it was "there's somebody shooting in my general direction from the other hill".

Your average adventurer probably sees more life or death combat by the time they hit second level than most career soldiers see in a lifetime.
Shiftkitty
11-26-07, 01:12 PM Okay, I'll buy that for a dollar.

He was knee-deep in it and has had a lot of training in HTH combat, but I think he used it more in barroom brawls than in life-and-death combat. I should probably also keep in mind that modern warfare training is a lot more intense than it would have been for a medieval soldier, even for a fantasy one. All the difference in the world between shooting at someone from a distance and having them right on top of you with a battle axe, eh?
Nived
11-26-07, 02:22 PM There was a passage in one of the Eberron novels (non canon I know) that I feel summed up adventurers vs soldiers.

It was in one of the short stories in Tales of the Last War. The Weight of Water by Edward Bolme

That evening as the sergeant patrolled the perimeter of the camp, he came upon Teron standing by himself. The monk held his hands cupped together and raised skyward. The sergeant watched him for several moments, but the monk neither moved no acknowledged the sergeant's presence.

Finally, his curiousity overcame his uncertainty. He cleared his throat as politely as he could, which, for a career soldier who'd spent the better part of twenty years yelling, was hardly at all. "Excuse me, um, master monk, but what in Kyber are you doing?" he asked.

"I'm fighting the rain," replied Teron.

The sergeant chuckled and looked up at the orbiting moons. Wide and pale Eyre, half full, approached the zenith, leading bright Barrakas across the sky. "Well, you must be winning, then, because the sky is as clear as crystal."

Teron lowered his hands and steped over to the sergeant. he held out his palms.

"What for are you carrying around water?" he asked. "We got us buckets of it back at the camp."

"As I said, I am fighting the rain." Teron looked at the sergeant as the grognard scratched the back of his neck in confusion. "You see," the monk explained, "the water wants to fall like rain. I seek to stop it. And so we fight, the water and I."

The sergeant grimiced. "But you can't hold it up there forever," he said.

"That is true," admitted Teron. He slowly opened his hands, and water fell like rain onto the dry earth. "Every night I lose."

"Well . . . then why do you do it?"

Teron rubbed his aching arms. "My master has told me to. I am to fight the rain until I learn the lesson." He paused to roll his shoulders, then sighed wearily. "I thought that the answer was that weight was greater than strength, but he said that was only part of the answer. And so I repeat the lesson."

"Wait," said the sergeant. "You mean you're still in training?"

"You're not?"

The sergeant snorted in derision. "Course not. I been in this army twenty years."

Teron looked at his hands, then dried them on his jersy. "That is sad, soldier," he said, "for if you are not in training, that means the only thing you have left for you to accomplish is dying."

One of these men has PC classes and is going to continue to gain levels, the other is going to remain a Warrior 2 forever, no matter how many people he fights.
Shiftkitty
11-26-07, 03:06 PM That's a very good illustration. I can see it more clearly now. I know a lot of veterans who got out of the srevice and returned to their old civilian lives, and others who went on to law enforcement, security, etc. and continued to improve their skills.
Alex_
11-27-07, 11:47 AM Given that the Warforged were made to fight, wouldn't an older Warforged start a game with multiple levels in Fighter to represent his veteran status? I can see a relatively new one starting with just one level, but suppose it was an older model, just as sentient, but more "high mileage"?

I ask because after a good first session with the Eberron setting, one of my players, a combat veteran himself (Viet Nam), is interested in trying out a Warforged he's tentatively named "Peacemaker". His concept is of a grizzled old warhorse who, while not backing down from a fight, is more prone to ending them than starting them. I'm not running anything high-level in Eberron right now. How do I explain a "grizzled old warhorse" being only a 1st level, or should I have the player hold on to Peacemaker until things get higher up and then let him start with a few levels (and maybe take advantage of the time to really flesh him out)?

Levels are an abstraction, and the rules given for experience are only really applicable to the party. They just help you gague relative power for the purposes of balancing the party and encounters.

Also, if your warforged could justify higher levels by claiming to be a veteran for a couple of decades, then a Dwarf, Elf, or Gnome could easily ask for the same, seeing as they could have (with their long life spans) amassed a century or more of military service. Not just military service, but experience as an explorer, a historian, a priest, an arcane caster, etc.

I wouldn't suggest using levels as a 1-to-1 gague of actual experience. Use it as a general gague of how powerful/important to the story someone is for the purposes of balance in the campaign and facilitation of the story. The main characters and their most important adversaries/challenges should have the middle-highest levels. As situations and individuals are to become less of an obsactle to overcome, their level should decrese, until you get to the point where you have your 1st level NPCs, which are generally forgettable after they've served their use, or essentially cannon-fodder.

Try to explain that he's first level now because everyone else is first level, and even though his history's cool, and will provide lots of roleplaying potential, it could be potentially upsetting to the mechanical balance of the game to make him a higher level than everyone else.
Kinger
11-27-07, 10:19 PM Just to tack on to what's been said before, one other explanation as to why a grizzled old warhorse is the same level as his "oh-boy-my-first-adventure" colleague is that the former has got to his skill level through sheer dedication and an extensive School of Hard Knocks education, while the latter is more of a prodigy.

Forgey's embittered and has a greater knowledge of how the world really works, but Boy Wonder over there hasn't a clue. They're both the same level, though.

If you're looking for a more rulesy reason, though, I go with "Forgey wasn't a PC until we started playing, and thus the experience tables etc. did not apply until now." :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shiftkitty 11-25-07, 11:11 AM	Given that the Warforged were made to fight, wouldn't an older Warforged start a game with multiple levels in Fighter to represent his veteran status? I can see a relatively new one starting with just one level, but suppose it was an older model, just as sentient, but more "high mileage"? I ask because after a good first session with the Eberron setting, one of my players, a combat veteran himself (Viet Nam), is interested in trying out a Warforged he's tentatively named "Peacemaker". His concept is of a grizzled old warhorse who, while not backing down from a fight, is more prone to ending them than starting them. I'm not running anything high-level in Eberron right now. How do I explain a "grizzled old warhorse" being only a 1st level, or should I have the player hold on to Peacemaker until things get higher up and then let him start with a few levels (and maybe take advantage of the time to really flesh him out)?
skrap-san 11-25-07, 12:23 PM	Well its the returning theme about how low level Eberron is. Personally i usually count 10 years of battle experience or so for every one level as fighter (with modifications of course). You have to remember that professional soldiers usually are warriors. So he could easily be a veteran with a low level.
Tordak 11-25-07, 06:54 PM	Also, soldiers don't necessarily see as much action as adventurers do, and it's not always as challenging as the adventurer life (for soldier who survive long enough).
Edymnion 11-25-07, 07:47 PM	Yes, ask your veteran friend how much time he spent in active combat (actually shooting and being shot at) versus how much time he spent marching through wetlands, doing standard patrol, etc. Then ask him, of the combat he did see, how much of it was actual hand to hand combat, and how much of it was "there's somebody shooting in my general direction from the other hill". Your average adventurer probably sees more life or death combat by the time they hit second level than most career soldiers see in a lifetime.
Shiftkitty 11-26-07, 01:12 PM	Okay, I'll buy that for a dollar. He was knee-deep in it and has had a lot of training in HTH combat, but I think he used it more in barroom brawls than in life-and-death combat. I should probably also keep in mind that modern warfare training is a lot more intense than it would have been for a medieval soldier, even for a fantasy one. All the difference in the world between shooting at someone from a distance and having them right on top of you with a battle axe, eh?
Nived 11-26-07, 02:22 PM	There was a passage in one of the Eberron novels (non canon I know) that I feel summed up adventurers vs soldiers. It was in one of the short stories in Tales of the Last War. The Weight of Water by Edward Bolme That evening as the sergeant patrolled the perimeter of the camp, he came upon Teron standing by himself. The monk held his hands cupped together and raised skyward. The sergeant watched him for several moments, but the monk neither moved no acknowledged the sergeant's presence. Finally, his curiousity overcame his uncertainty. He cleared his throat as politely as he could, which, for a career soldier who'd spent the better part of twenty years yelling, was hardly at all. "Excuse me, um, master monk, but what in Kyber are you doing?" he asked. "I'm fighting the rain," replied Teron. The sergeant chuckled and looked up at the orbiting moons. Wide and pale Eyre, half full, approached the zenith, leading bright Barrakas across the sky. "Well, you must be winning, then, because the sky is as clear as crystal." Teron lowered his hands and steped over to the sergeant. he held out his palms. "What for are you carrying around water?" he asked. "We got us buckets of it back at the camp." "As I said, I am fighting the rain." Teron looked at the sergeant as the grognard scratched the back of his neck in confusion. "You see," the monk explained, "the water wants to fall like rain. I seek to stop it. And so we fight, the water and I." The sergeant grimiced. "But you can't hold it up there forever," he said. "That is true," admitted Teron. He slowly opened his hands, and water fell like rain onto the dry earth. "Every night I lose." "Well . . . then why do you do it?" Teron rubbed his aching arms. "My master has told me to. I am to fight the rain until I learn the lesson." He paused to roll his shoulders, then sighed wearily. "I thought that the answer was that weight was greater than strength, but he said that was only part of the answer. And so I repeat the lesson." "Wait," said the sergeant. "You mean you're still in training?" "You're not?" The sergeant snorted in derision. "Course not. I been in this army twenty years." Teron looked at his hands, then dried them on his jersy. "That is sad, soldier," he said, "for if you are not in training, that means the only thing you have left for you to accomplish is dying." One of these men has PC classes and is going to continue to gain levels, the other is going to remain a Warrior 2 forever, no matter how many people he fights.
Shiftkitty 11-26-07, 03:06 PM	That's a very good illustration. I can see it more clearly now. I know a lot of veterans who got out of the srevice and returned to their old civilian lives, and others who went on to law enforcement, security, etc. and continued to improve their skills.
Alex_ 11-27-07, 11:47 AM	Given that the Warforged were made to fight, wouldn't an older Warforged start a game with multiple levels in Fighter to represent his veteran status? I can see a relatively new one starting with just one level, but suppose it was an older model, just as sentient, but more "high mileage"? I ask because after a good first session with the Eberron setting, one of my players, a combat veteran himself (Viet Nam), is interested in trying out a Warforged he's tentatively named "Peacemaker". His concept is of a grizzled old warhorse who, while not backing down from a fight, is more prone to ending them than starting them. I'm not running anything high-level in Eberron right now. How do I explain a "grizzled old warhorse" being only a 1st level, or should I have the player hold on to Peacemaker until things get higher up and then let him start with a few levels (and maybe take advantage of the time to really flesh him out)? Levels are an abstraction, and the rules given for experience are only really applicable to the party. They just help you gague relative power for the purposes of balancing the party and encounters. Also, if your warforged could justify higher levels by claiming to be a veteran for a couple of decades, then a Dwarf, Elf, or Gnome could easily ask for the same, seeing as they could have (with their long life spans) amassed a century or more of military service. Not just military service, but experience as an explorer, a historian, a priest, an arcane caster, etc. I wouldn't suggest using levels as a 1-to-1 gague of actual experience. Use it as a general gague of how powerful/important to the story someone is for the purposes of balance in the campaign and facilitation of the story. The main characters and their most important adversaries/challenges should have the middle-highest levels. As situations and individuals are to become less of an obsactle to overcome, their level should decrese, until you get to the point where you have your 1st level NPCs, which are generally forgettable after they've served their use, or essentially cannon-fodder. Try to explain that he's first level now because everyone else is first level, and even though his history's cool, and will provide lots of roleplaying potential, it could be potentially upsetting to the mechanical balance of the game to make him a higher level than everyone else.
Kinger 11-27-07, 10:19 PM	Just to tack on to what's been said before, one other explanation as to why a grizzled old warhorse is the same level as his "oh-boy-my-first-adventure" colleague is that the former has got to his skill level through sheer dedication and an extensive School of Hard Knocks education, while the latter is more of a prodigy. Forgey's embittered and has a greater knowledge of how the world really works, but Boy Wonder over there hasn't a clue. They're both the same level, though. If you're looking for a more rulesy reason, though, I go with "Forgey wasn't a PC until we started playing, and thus the experience tables etc. did not apply until now." :)