Warforged Scout PC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warforged Scout PC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Moosh Nailo
08-06-07, 02:15 AM I remember someone did some work way back when to make the warforged scout more attractive as a PC race. At least I think thats what it was. Anyway, could I get a 'fresher on what happened? I'd like to play one.

Or was it decided that nothing needed to be changed? :confused:
Hideous Phidias
08-06-07, 02:23 AM Easy take a regular warforged make it small size, all you have to do is change the fallowing dex +2 str -2, speed 20, +1 ac, and +1 attack.
Alex_
08-06-07, 01:30 PM For balance sake, I'd say get rid of the -2 to Wisdom. It's a scout. It's just annoying for a scout to have racial penalties to Spot and Listen checks. Or keeping the Ability score modifiers and adding 30 feet base movement.

Getting rid of both the penalties to Wisdom and Charisma though, would make the Scout a bit on the powerful side IMO. A +2 Dex and -2 Strength, normal Small traits, AND Living Construct traits might be a bit excessive. With favored class being Rogue, it's also going to have a lot more skills to devote to Craft to repair itself.
Moosh Nailo
08-06-07, 03:01 PM Yeah, the wis penalty bugged me. Is it too much to remove that and increase the speed to 30ft?
OctaviusIII
08-06-07, 04:08 PM Yeah, the wis penalty bugged me. Is it too much to remove that and increase the speed to 30ft?

Not if you remove a bonus - perhaps +1 to attack?
Alex_
08-06-07, 04:28 PM Yeah, the wis penalty bugged me. Is it too much to remove that and increase the speed to 30ft?

Remove the penalty OR increase movement speed. Not both.
LoneStranger
08-07-07, 01:07 AM Actually one of the people in the group I'm in is using a Warforged Scout as written (I'm pretty sure he is) and is having a blast with it. He's worked around the problems pretty well.

Of course he's also gone off to become a masseuse but really don't ask about that, I know and I don't want too.
Moosh Nailo
08-07-07, 03:50 PM I'll settle with bumping the wis, then. Thanks!
ArcTan
08-08-07, 03:13 AM Not if you remove a bonus - perhaps +1 to attack?

The +1 to attack is inherent to Small size, not a special quality of the Warforged Scout. All Small things get a +1 to attack.

You could effectively compensate for the +1 to attack by, say, getting rid of the Dex bonus.
LoneStranger
08-08-07, 07:54 PM Why are the stats as they're written "bad"?

Really I'm curious and would want to know.

The reason I've seen for the Wis penalty to Warforged Scouts (and full sized Warforged) is the fact they're not used to dealing with others outside of military units, not used to more social interactions.
Alex_
08-08-07, 08:45 PM Why are the stats as they're written "bad"?

Really I'm curious and would want to know.

It's slightly less powerful compared to other small races than the Warforged is compared to other Medium races. The average Warforged only has a penalty to Charisma and Wisdom, with a bonus to Constitution. The Warforged Scout trades the Constitution bonus for a Dexterity bonus, but also gains a Strength penalty.

Also, since the Warforged Scout is moe likely chosen by a character who wants to play a sneaky, subtle class, a penalty to Wisdom, the penalty that governs Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive checks is considered a hindrance. It also limits their effectiveness as Wisdom based casters, which in addition to the Charisma penalty, makes them a less capable option for anything but Intelligence based ones.

It's not unplayable. It's just not as flexible or efficient numbers wise.

The reason I've seen for the Wis penalty to Warforged Scouts (and full sized Warforged) is the fact they're not used to dealing with others outside of military units, not used to more social interactions.

That's what the Charisma penalty represents. A wisdom penalty represents one's awareness of what's going on around them, and "common sense". It's a common theme when dealing with AI or artifical beings. Their perception and understanding of the world is limited to the point where they often don't understand what death is, when someone is lying, or that they're in danger. A Warorged is not only reserved and bad at dealing with people (Charisma penalty), they're naive in relation to he world, and full of wonder and amazement at things everyone else takes for granted.

The problem people have with the Wisdom penalty is not fluff based, but mechanics based. For the reasons listed above.
ArcTan
08-08-07, 09:32 PM It's slightly less powerful compared to other small races than the Warforged is compared to other Medium races. The average Warforged only has a penalty to Charisma and Wisdom, with a bonus to Constitution. The Warforged Scout trades the Constitution bonus for a Dexterity bonus, but also gains a Strength penalty.

Also, since the Warforged Scout is moe likely chosen by a character who wants to play a sneaky, subtle class, a penalty to Wisdom, the penalty that governs Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive checks is considered a hindrance. It also limits their effectiveness as Wisdom based casters, which in addition to the Charisma penalty, makes them a less capable option for anything but Intelligence based ones.

It's not unplayable. It's just not as flexible or efficient numbers wise.

On the other hand, lots of people like playing a Warforged Artificer, despite the fact that a Cha penalty penalizes UMD, an Artificer's bread-and-butter skill.

Eberron is, after all, the world where Elves are Fighters despite their -2 Con and Halflings are Barbarians despite their -2 Str and Orcs are Druids despite their -2 Wis.

The Wis penalty does, flavorwise, make sense, since Warforged Scouts are described as a sort of experiment that didn't go very well -- most of the advantages of a Warforged are less important when scouting, whereas the psychological disadvantages of Warforged -- that they thought of as advantages when training Warforged to go fight and kill -- turned out to be a big problem for scouting. (It was very difficult to train Warforged Scouts to understand what was important information and what was not when doing recon on enemy units; their total lack of context for what they were seeing becomes a much bigger deal in situations more complex than "Kill the enemy or else he'll kill you". You probably got a few situations where the WF Scouts couldn't tell the difference between civilian and military encampments, or mistook friendly troop movements for the enemy, or got lost and did extensive recon of an entire area of totally empty, strategically useless wilderness, etc.)
Ravenstein
08-09-07, 08:59 AM I wouldn't edit the rules simply because "it makes sense". Actually it make sense that a warforged in any incarnation has a -2 to WIS like it states for the simple fact that Warforged are created, and born into this world as a clean slate. Yes things like Listen and Spot are governed by WIS, but it takes time for a warforged to learn what is discernable and dangerous through the use of those skills. This "learning process" is represented in his Class's will-save advancement. The natural -2 to WIS shows that he's got a lot more to learn than the average person whose race has culturally developed over thousands of years.

Also, the -1 you'll be missing off your skill checks may hurt you initially, but in later levels you'll hardly miss it. High ability scores have diminishing returns at higher levels because you have so many points pumped into the skill check.

And someone pointed out the Warforged Artificer. Again, a great example of a character type that is "odd", or out of the ordinary. Yet it IS possible and viable because there are no real bad combinations in 3.5. Everyone gets so hung up at squeezing those 1 to 3 points from ability scores and Skill Focus that they don't see the larger picture.

Warforged Scout; keep the -2 to WIS. Your gonna find that it won't hurt you in the end.
Amaril
08-09-07, 09:04 AM Why hasn't anyone created a house rule that Warforged Scout gain a +1 bonus to Spot and Listen checks while leaving the -2 Wis alone?
Ravenstein
08-09-07, 09:18 AM Why hasn't anyone created a house rule that Warforged Scout gain a +1 bonus to Spot and Listen checks while leaving the -2 Wis alone?

For the scout? Enh...its still a warforged. Just because it was created for the purpose of scouting doesn't mean its good at it. I think like someone stated earlier, it was an experiment and a failed one at that.
Amaril
08-09-07, 09:23 AM For the scout? Enh...its still a warforged. Just because it was created for the purpose of scouting doesn't mean its good at it. I think like someone stated earlier, it was an experiment and a failed one at that.

Maybe in your version of Eberron, but not mine. My campaign's version of the warforged scout would be designed for scouting, and while being naive to the world, it would still be excellent at reconnaissance as intended.
Ravenstein
08-09-07, 09:26 AM Maybe in your version of Eberron, but not mine. My campaign's version of the warforged scout would be designed for scouting, and while being naive to the world, it would still be excellent at reconnaissance as intended.

Well then rock on with yo bad self.
Alex_
08-09-07, 12:17 PM Why hasn't anyone created a house rule that Warforged Scout gain a +1 bonus to Spot and Listen checks while leaving the -2 Wis alone?

Or in the vein of other skill bonuses, a +2. It would not only negate the -1 penalty to rolls from the Wisdom, but also give them a small bonus. I suppose I didn't think of it because it was so blindingly simple :P
Alex_
08-09-07, 12:25 PM On the other hand, lots of people like playing a Warforged Artificer, despite the fact that a Cha penalty penalizes UMD, an Artificer's bread-and-butter skill.

Eberron is, after all, the world where Elves are Fighters despite their -2 Con and Halflings are Barbarians despite their -2 Str and Orcs are Druids despite their -2 Wis.

Some people still complain. Those races have lots more options though. Although their fluff classes in D&D are less optimized, they have plenty of more options for more efficient builds if you go with their favored/complimentary classes. Warforged Scouts don't have as wide a range of favored/complimentary classes that result in them seeming more powerful/efficient builds.

People who are playing for concept and care less about numbers can overlook it. Those who play a higher powered game or like to feel that their characters are mechanically more effecient/complimentary to their class choices will. Those are the people who come to the boards for rules and opinions.
Amaril
08-09-07, 01:02 PM Or in the vein of other skill bonuses, a +2. It would not only negate the -1 penalty to rolls from the Wisdom, but also give them a small bonus. I suppose I didn't think of it because it was so blindingly simple :P

Well, I was thinking of the half-elf's +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks, but a +2 wouldn't be too powerful either.
Alex_
08-09-07, 01:26 PM Well, I was thinking of the half-elf's +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks, but a +2 wouldn't be too powerful either.

They only get a +1? That's just silly.
White 5
08-11-07, 04:44 PM My answer for my campain has always been to give Warforged Scouts a 30 move speed, and leave all other racial modifiers alone. My reasoning being that with their artificial nature they are less hindered by their stature than many other small races. (FYI: Goblins also have a 30 move for a small race, this as a rules point is what also fueled my choice.) Although I do like the idea posted here of giving them a +1 or +2 to Spot and Listen, I would not be inclined to do that as well as give them a 30 move speed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moosh Nailo 08-06-07, 02:15 AM	I remember someone did some work way back when to make the warforged scout more attractive as a PC race. At least I think thats what it was. Anyway, could I get a 'fresher on what happened? I'd like to play one. Or was it decided that nothing needed to be changed? :confused:
Hideous Phidias 08-06-07, 02:23 AM	Easy take a regular warforged make it small size, all you have to do is change the fallowing dex +2 str -2, speed 20, +1 ac, and +1 attack.
Alex_ 08-06-07, 01:30 PM	For balance sake, I'd say get rid of the -2 to Wisdom. It's a scout. It's just annoying for a scout to have racial penalties to Spot and Listen checks. Or keeping the Ability score modifiers and adding 30 feet base movement. Getting rid of both the penalties to Wisdom and Charisma though, would make the Scout a bit on the powerful side IMO. A +2 Dex and -2 Strength, normal Small traits, AND Living Construct traits might be a bit excessive. With favored class being Rogue, it's also going to have a lot more skills to devote to Craft to repair itself.
Moosh Nailo 08-06-07, 03:01 PM	Yeah, the wis penalty bugged me. Is it too much to remove that and increase the speed to 30ft?
OctaviusIII 08-06-07, 04:08 PM	Yeah, the wis penalty bugged me. Is it too much to remove that and increase the speed to 30ft? Not if you remove a bonus - perhaps +1 to attack?
Alex_ 08-06-07, 04:28 PM	Yeah, the wis penalty bugged me. Is it too much to remove that and increase the speed to 30ft? Remove the penalty OR increase movement speed. Not both.
LoneStranger 08-07-07, 01:07 AM	Actually one of the people in the group I'm in is using a Warforged Scout as written (I'm pretty sure he is) and is having a blast with it. He's worked around the problems pretty well. Of course he's also gone off to become a masseuse but really don't ask about that, I know and I don't want too.
Moosh Nailo 08-07-07, 03:50 PM	I'll settle with bumping the wis, then. Thanks!
ArcTan 08-08-07, 03:13 AM	Not if you remove a bonus - perhaps +1 to attack? The +1 to attack is inherent to Small size, not a special quality of the Warforged Scout. All Small things get a +1 to attack. You could effectively compensate for the +1 to attack by, say, getting rid of the Dex bonus.
LoneStranger 08-08-07, 07:54 PM	Why are the stats as they're written "bad"? Really I'm curious and would want to know. The reason I've seen for the Wis penalty to Warforged Scouts (and full sized Warforged) is the fact they're not used to dealing with others outside of military units, not used to more social interactions.
Alex_ 08-08-07, 08:45 PM	Why are the stats as they're written "bad"? Really I'm curious and would want to know. It's slightly less powerful compared to other small races than the Warforged is compared to other Medium races. The average Warforged only has a penalty to Charisma and Wisdom, with a bonus to Constitution. The Warforged Scout trades the Constitution bonus for a Dexterity bonus, but also gains a Strength penalty. Also, since the Warforged Scout is moe likely chosen by a character who wants to play a sneaky, subtle class, a penalty to Wisdom, the penalty that governs Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive checks is considered a hindrance. It also limits their effectiveness as Wisdom based casters, which in addition to the Charisma penalty, makes them a less capable option for anything but Intelligence based ones. It's not unplayable. It's just not as flexible or efficient numbers wise. The reason I've seen for the Wis penalty to Warforged Scouts (and full sized Warforged) is the fact they're not used to dealing with others outside of military units, not used to more social interactions. That's what the Charisma penalty represents. A wisdom penalty represents one's awareness of what's going on around them, and "common sense". It's a common theme when dealing with AI or artifical beings. Their perception and understanding of the world is limited to the point where they often don't understand what death is, when someone is lying, or that they're in danger. A Warorged is not only reserved and bad at dealing with people (Charisma penalty), they're naive in relation to he world, and full of wonder and amazement at things everyone else takes for granted. The problem people have with the Wisdom penalty is not fluff based, but mechanics based. For the reasons listed above.
ArcTan 08-08-07, 09:32 PM	It's slightly less powerful compared to other small races than the Warforged is compared to other Medium races. The average Warforged only has a penalty to Charisma and Wisdom, with a bonus to Constitution. The Warforged Scout trades the Constitution bonus for a Dexterity bonus, but also gains a Strength penalty. Also, since the Warforged Scout is moe likely chosen by a character who wants to play a sneaky, subtle class, a penalty to Wisdom, the penalty that governs Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive checks is considered a hindrance. It also limits their effectiveness as Wisdom based casters, which in addition to the Charisma penalty, makes them a less capable option for anything but Intelligence based ones. It's not unplayable. It's just not as flexible or efficient numbers wise. On the other hand, lots of people like playing a Warforged Artificer, despite the fact that a Cha penalty penalizes UMD, an Artificer's bread-and-butter skill. Eberron is, after all, the world where Elves are Fighters despite their -2 Con and Halflings are Barbarians despite their -2 Str and Orcs are Druids despite their -2 Wis. The Wis penalty does, flavorwise, make sense, since Warforged Scouts are described as a sort of experiment that didn't go very well -- most of the advantages of a Warforged are less important when scouting, whereas the psychological disadvantages of Warforged -- that they thought of as advantages when training Warforged to go fight and kill -- turned out to be a big problem for scouting. (It was very difficult to train Warforged Scouts to understand what was important information and what was not when doing recon on enemy units; their total lack of context for what they were seeing becomes a much bigger deal in situations more complex than "Kill the enemy or else he'll kill you". You probably got a few situations where the WF Scouts couldn't tell the difference between civilian and military encampments, or mistook friendly troop movements for the enemy, or got lost and did extensive recon of an entire area of totally empty, strategically useless wilderness, etc.)
Ravenstein 08-09-07, 08:59 AM	I wouldn't edit the rules simply because "it makes sense". Actually it make sense that a warforged in any incarnation has a -2 to WIS like it states for the simple fact that Warforged are created, and born into this world as a clean slate. Yes things like Listen and Spot are governed by WIS, but it takes time for a warforged to learn what is discernable and dangerous through the use of those skills. This "learning process" is represented in his Class's will-save advancement. The natural -2 to WIS shows that he's got a lot more to learn than the average person whose race has culturally developed over thousands of years. Also, the -1 you'll be missing off your skill checks may hurt you initially, but in later levels you'll hardly miss it. High ability scores have diminishing returns at higher levels because you have so many points pumped into the skill check. And someone pointed out the Warforged Artificer. Again, a great example of a character type that is "odd", or out of the ordinary. Yet it IS possible and viable because there are no real bad combinations in 3.5. Everyone gets so hung up at squeezing those 1 to 3 points from ability scores and Skill Focus that they don't see the larger picture. Warforged Scout; keep the -2 to WIS. Your gonna find that it won't hurt you in the end.
Amaril 08-09-07, 09:04 AM	Why hasn't anyone created a house rule that Warforged Scout gain a +1 bonus to Spot and Listen checks while leaving the -2 Wis alone?
Ravenstein 08-09-07, 09:18 AM	Why hasn't anyone created a house rule that Warforged Scout gain a +1 bonus to Spot and Listen checks while leaving the -2 Wis alone? For the scout? Enh...its still a warforged. Just because it was created for the purpose of scouting doesn't mean its good at it. I think like someone stated earlier, it was an experiment and a failed one at that.
Amaril 08-09-07, 09:23 AM	For the scout? Enh...its still a warforged. Just because it was created for the purpose of scouting doesn't mean its good at it. I think like someone stated earlier, it was an experiment and a failed one at that. Maybe in your version of Eberron, but not mine. My campaign's version of the warforged scout would be designed for scouting, and while being naive to the world, it would still be excellent at reconnaissance as intended.
Ravenstein 08-09-07, 09:26 AM	Maybe in your version of Eberron, but not mine. My campaign's version of the warforged scout would be designed for scouting, and while being naive to the world, it would still be excellent at reconnaissance as intended. Well then rock on with yo bad self.
Alex_ 08-09-07, 12:17 PM	Why hasn't anyone created a house rule that Warforged Scout gain a +1 bonus to Spot and Listen checks while leaving the -2 Wis alone? Or in the vein of other skill bonuses, a +2. It would not only negate the -1 penalty to rolls from the Wisdom, but also give them a small bonus. I suppose I didn't think of it because it was so blindingly simple :P
Alex_ 08-09-07, 12:25 PM	On the other hand, lots of people like playing a Warforged Artificer, despite the fact that a Cha penalty penalizes UMD, an Artificer's bread-and-butter skill. Eberron is, after all, the world where Elves are Fighters despite their -2 Con and Halflings are Barbarians despite their -2 Str and Orcs are Druids despite their -2 Wis. Some people still complain. Those races have lots more options though. Although their fluff classes in D&D are less optimized, they have plenty of more options for more efficient builds if you go with their favored/complimentary classes. Warforged Scouts don't have as wide a range of favored/complimentary classes that result in them seeming more powerful/efficient builds. People who are playing for concept and care less about numbers can overlook it. Those who play a higher powered game or like to feel that their characters are mechanically more effecient/complimentary to their class choices will. Those are the people who come to the boards for rules and opinions.
Amaril 08-09-07, 01:02 PM	Or in the vein of other skill bonuses, a +2. It would not only negate the -1 penalty to rolls from the Wisdom, but also give them a small bonus. I suppose I didn't think of it because it was so blindingly simple :P Well, I was thinking of the half-elf's +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks, but a +2 wouldn't be too powerful either.
Alex_ 08-09-07, 01:26 PM	Well, I was thinking of the half-elf's +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks, but a +2 wouldn't be too powerful either. They only get a +1? That's just silly.
White 5 08-11-07, 04:44 PM	My answer for my campain has always been to give Warforged Scouts a 30 move speed, and leave all other racial modifiers alone. My reasoning being that with their artificial nature they are less hindered by their stature than many other small races. (FYI: Goblins also have a 30 move for a small race, this as a rules point is what also fueled my choice.) Although I do like the idea posted here of giving them a +1 or +2 to Spot and Listen, I would not be inclined to do that as well as give them a 30 move speed.