Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bad_phil 08-01-07, 11:27 AM	Yes, another thread about our controversial Warforged. My friend know I like Warforgeds, so they keep bother me telling they are mere robots. So i'd like you guys to help me define de Warforged from the robot. Of course this implies sentience, emotion and soul. A sentence I really liked when I read the first three Novels of Keith Baker: Human: What makes you think you got a soul? Indigo(warforged): What makes you think you got one?
Alex_ 08-01-07, 11:46 AM	Yes, another thread about our controversial Warforged. My friend know I like Warforgeds, so they keep bother me telling they are mere robots. So i'd like you guys to help me define de Warforged from the robot. Of course this implies sentience, emotion and soul. A sentence I really liked when I read the first three Novels of Keith Baker: Human: What makes you think you got a soul? Indigo(warforged): What makes you think you got one? They're made of the same general stuff as Shield Gaurdians, only they full sapience and vulnerability to things that Constructs are usually immune to some Necromancy effects that instantly kill. They can be affected by magical healing, and they can be raised from the dead and reincarnated. They are not simply destroyed upon reaching 0 or -10 HP. They aren't put together piece by piece. The ingredients are poured into the creation forge, and the Warforged "grow" form inside and then crawl/walk/climb out. They have many traits that not even their creators expected like senses of taste, vulnerability to subdual damage, and a strange mark on their forehead that varies from one Warforged to the next. Those are a couple of pieces of evidence suggesting Warforged have at least SOME of the qualities of living things. They seem more like cyborgs/bioroids than the "classic" robot. This isn't to say that they're JUST like all other living things. They never sleep and have a desire to always be working and somehow useful. Although they have some emotions, they don't feel them the same as other races, and many are generally more confusing and bizarre to them.
Edymnion 08-01-07, 12:18 PM	My friend know I like Warforgeds, so they keep bother me telling they are mere robots.I'm going out on a limb here, so I might be wrong, but: How old are you? I'm betting you're under the age of 14, in which case your friends keep saying the WF are robots not because of any misguided beliefs on their parts, but because they know it annoys you. They don't care one way or the other, they just enjoy watching you get mad about it.
LoneStranger 08-01-07, 07:36 PM	My question is how are they controversial? From what I've seen some of the biggest arguments I've seen are from people trying to pull off munchkin things with them or just plain reading the rules wrong. Yes Warforged get some nifty things but they are not as overpowering as people think (especially if the GM is paying attention).
DragoonDarkfire 08-01-07, 08:31 PM	I'm going out on a limb here, so I might be wrong, but: How old are you? I'm betting you're under the age of 14, in which case your friends keep saying the WF are robots not because of any misguided beliefs on their parts, but because they know it annoys you. They don't care one way or the other, they just enjoy watching you get mad about it. Hey Edy. Eberron is becoming an incarnum exclusive setting.
decembersfrost 08-01-07, 09:22 PM	Hey Edy. Eberron is becoming an incarnum exclusive setting. Oh crap! RUNAWAY!!!
Edymnion 08-01-07, 10:20 PM	Hey Edy. Eberron is becoming an incarnum exclusive setting.Ah come on, you can do better than that. Tack on some 4.0 stuff (instead of 4e). "Eberron is becoming an incarnum exclusive setting when it upgrades to 4.0 next year." See? Much better! :D
Anguish2 08-01-07, 10:23 PM	Hey Edy. Eberron is becoming an incarnum exclusive setting. Wow. I just cast identify and learned that you just crafted a post that's +1 edymnionbane.
DragoonDarkfire 08-01-07, 10:45 PM	Ah come on, you can do better than that. Tack on some 4.0 stuff (instead of 4e). "Eberron is becoming an incarnum exclusive setting when it upgrades to 4.0 next year." See? Much better! :D Did I mention that in 4.0 Tome of Battle will replace regular martial characters?
Ogiwan 08-02-07, 09:17 AM	Ugh. I read Tome of Battle, expecting it to be something that helps those classes that focus on hitting things hard (or dealing pointy/slashy/bashy death of some kind), and I get new classes that I didn't care about at all. Bah. Anyways. Concerning 'forged, they are sentient (able to use their senses; they can feel pain, cold, etc.), self-aware (aware they exist as a distinct "me") and sapient (able to use rational judgement). Various robots in sci-fi have some or all of these traits; C-3P0, for example, has all three. Now, to differentiate a 'forged from a robot, well....'forged have organic components, and don't have to be programmed (it specifies that they emerge from the forge with basic knowledge, but need to be taught how to fight). A good parallel, i think, would be to compare 'forged to humans grown in vats and cyberneticlly enhanced.
bad_phil 08-02-07, 12:09 PM	I'm going out on a limb here, so I might be wrong, but: How old are you? I'm betting you're under the age of 14, in which case your friends keep saying the WF are robots not because of any misguided beliefs on their parts, but because they know it annoys you. They don't care one way or the other, they just enjoy watching you get mad about it. Hoho! Now that's almost insulting. I'm 25. But your right, my friend like to say that just to watch me try to convince them they aren't mere robots, but more than this. I got some good grades in philosophy, that's why I try to make an out of game definition. Not like they are immune to this and that, I know all that already. More like a definition that would be found in a dictionnary.
Dr. Benway 08-02-07, 04:16 PM	I'm going out on a limb here, so I might be wrong, but: How old are you? I'm betting you're under the age of 14, Not only are you wrong but you are an intolerant jerk with a napoleon complex too. I may be wrong about that tho. Hope it didnt offend you. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
DragoonDarkfire 08-02-07, 05:14 PM	Ugh. I read Tome of Battle, expecting it to be something that helps those classes that focus on hitting things hard (or dealing pointy/slashy/bashy death of some kind), Which they do. It's called Stone Dragon and it can be learned by all three classes in the book. and I get new classes that I didn't care about at all. Bah. Depends. The classes in TOB represent more variations of existing classes with new Maneuvers. Crusader- Paladin. Just without the alignment restriction and more of a tank. Swordsage- Monk, can also be used to make a good ninja build with Shadowhand. Warblade- Tough call, but most likely fighter.
Nevarre 08-02-07, 05:58 PM	Yes, another thread about our controversial Warforged. My friend know I like Warforgeds, so they keep bother me telling they are mere robots. So i'd like you guys to help me define de Warforged from the robot. Of course this implies sentience, emotion and soul. Simple! A robot (defined by all of the references I can find) is a 'mechanical device' or machine. A Warforged is neither. Ta Da! :cool:
LoneStranger 08-02-07, 07:18 PM	Hmmm dictionary style definition huh? Let's try this: A Warforged is a type of construct that is generally physically smaller than most constructs but does have cognitive functions closer to humanoid organic races. How's about that for a start at least?
Dr. Benway 08-03-07, 10:20 AM	Hmmm dictionary style definition huh? Let's try this: A Warforged is a type of construct that is generally physically smaller than most constructs but does have cognitive functions closer to humanoid organic races. How's about that for a start at least? I dont get where you think WF are small...or at least smaller than 'normal' constructs. A vast majority of constructs in the game are Medium or smaller. As far as I can see, golems are the only constructs bigger than that, with a few side exceptions. The thing that actually does make them different than almost all other constructs is the fact that they are Alive. Not just sentient, but actual true living beings. As such, they can be mind controlled, have their life energy drained, or be brought back to life, justlike any other living being. Hope that clears things up a bit... DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Belkar 08-03-07, 12:09 PM	Warforged: war-forge-d [war-fourg-d] -noun 1. a living being composed of mostly organic and some traditionally inanimate material, originally created through magical means, and possessing sentience, emotion, and free will. 2. a living construct. 3. humo-molioris [from the old Karnnish]
RuckusFox 08-03-07, 12:44 PM	To learn the secret behind Warforged, you should really read the "Races of Eberron" book and the "Forgotten Forge" mini-novel. They say a lot. Warforged were made to fight in the Last War. When it ended, they had to adapt to the world around them to make a "living" for themselves. By all biological means, they are machine. But the things that set them apart are their personality, their AI, and their own personal beliefs. I imagine that you'd become a very romantic person if you didn't sleep and had to busy yourself at every hour of the day. But as far as anatomy goes, there is no sure way to decide what makes a Warforge tick. We just don't know. They are as human as anyone else when it comes to "brains", and even stronger when it comes to physique. I like to use Warforged a lot...especially because there is a lot of potential involved in making a character like it. Take example...a Warforge Fighter/Assassin "Eager Threat: Prepare to be purged of your mortal body, meatbag." Or maybe a Warforge Rogue "Woohoo! See ya later chumps and chumpettes!" I think you friend should realize that there is more to the Warforged than meets the eye. They aren't just robots...but they -can- become more robot-like if they take the Prestige Class "Warforged Juggernaut." They become detached from the real world and embrace their fighting heritage. Different weapons and names also describe each Warforge. If they have a massive jagged armblade, they might name themselves after it. If they use a oaken staff, then they might name themselves after it too. Not only can you customize them with this, but you have the choice of keeping their original plated bodies, upgrading that metal, or sacrificing it to wear actual worn armor. The possibilities are endless with a Warforge, and their psychological make-up is just the beginning of the fun you can have with them.
bad_phil 08-03-07, 01:16 PM	To learn the secret behind Warforged, you should really read the "Races of Eberron" book and the "Forgotten Forge" mini-novel. They say a lot. Warforged were made to fight in the Last War. When it ended, they had to adapt to the world around them to make a "living" for themselves. By all biological means, they are machine. But the things that set them apart are their personality, their AI, and their own personal beliefs. I imagine that you'd become a very romantic person if you didn't sleep and had to busy yourself at every hour of the day. But as far as anatomy goes, there is no sure way to decide what makes a Warforge tick. We just don't know. They are as human as anyone else when it comes to "brains", and even stronger when it comes to physique. I like to use Warforged a lot...especially because there is a lot of potential involved in making a character like it. Take example...a Warforge Fighter/Assassin "Eager Threat: Prepare to be purged of your mortal body, meatbag." Or maybe a Warforge Rogue "Woohoo! See ya later chumps and chumpettes!" I think you friend should realize that there is more to the Warforged than meets the eye. They aren't just robots...but they -can- become more robot-like if they take the Prestige Class "Warforged Juggernaut." They become detached from the real world and embrace their fighting heritage. Different weapons and names also describe each Warforge. If they have a massive jagged armblade, they might name themselves after it. If they use a oaken staff, then they might name themselves after it too. Not only can you customize them with this, but you have the choice of keeping their original plated bodies, upgrading that metal, or sacrificing it to wear actual worn armor. The possibilities are endless with a Warforge, and their psychological make-up is just the beginning of the fun you can have with them. Thanks for the lesson, but I got all Eberron source books. So yes I know what's a warforged and the descriptions in races of Eberron. The definitions above are really good. I wonder if we should add psychology, emotion, and all that stuff. More, what about the soul, do they have a soul? I'd like to say yes, but like us(humans) there's no way to be sure. It's almost a question of faith.
bad_phil 08-03-07, 01:20 PM	My question is how are they controversial? From what I've seen some of the biggest arguments I've seen are from people trying to pull off munchkin things with them or just plain reading the rules wrong. Yes Warforged get some nifty things but they are not as overpowering as people think (especially if the GM is paying attention). No no no! I'm not saying contoversial in a powerplay way. I think they are very balance and most poeple I know agrees. I wrote that for a philosophical point of view. Are they "alive"? Are they really sentient? Are they mere object that deserve to be slaves? Do they have souls? What happens when they die? That kind of stuff.
Ogiwan 08-03-07, 01:33 PM	"Eager Threat: Prepare to be purged of your mortal body, meatbag." HK-47! W00T! It would be kinda hard to adopt his speaking characteristics and not be robotic. Unless you just went with WFJ.
Darth Syntax 08-03-07, 01:56 PM	Simple! A robot (defined by all of the references I can find) is a 'mechanical device' or machine. A Warforged is neither. Ta Da! :cool: The trouble with this, and many other, definitions of robot is that is not properly incluseive of many of the fictional entities that are commonly referred to as "robots". The original robots (as described in Rossum's Universal Robots by Karel Čapek) were actually more akin to the androids in the Alien movies or in the Hyperion Cantos being as they were essentially artificial people. The Warforged are very much a race of "artifical people" and thus are robots. Now granted they are not the same kind of robot as your classic 50's sci-fi robot, or the ones we actually have built and working, but they are still robots within the larger umbrella of fiction. Also, warforged are mechanical, in much the same way that humans are mechanical . We have joints, moving parts, and other such things, so too to they. Granted, they probably don't have clockwork parts, but they do have analogues to bones, joints, muscles, and all the rest. If we are to accept Čapek's robots as robots (which seems logical as they are the origin of the term) then we must accept that warforged are also robots well, so both kinds are essentially artificial people. As to the philosophical aspects, I've been thinking about these for some time and I've come up with some general ideas. On souls: Warforged do not have souls (those lucky ********). They do, however, have minds which are emergent properties of their bodies. In essence warforged share some similarities to outsiders in that they have an essentially monistic nature. On being alive: Warforged are not alive as they do not metabolize, produce waste, or produce offspring. They do, however, possess sentience and they do react to stimuli. So we are left with an interesting concept, a non-living yet sentient person. On psychology: The warforged mind is a complicated thing and although somewhat analogous to a human mind, it's workings are very different. Warforged were created as soldiers, raised on the battlefield, and taught little more than how to obey and kill. They are thus more comfortable in situations that mimic the conditions of battle than they are siting around enjoying peace. Indeed, peace and quiet to them is about as alien, stressful, and horrifying as being in the trenches would be for most humanoids. The normal state of affairs for a warforged involved being put at great risk of dieing and having those around you endure the same; because this is the normal state of affairs for them they activly seek out professions that mimic war-conditions. This explains why so many warforged find employment in the more dangerous professions (deep-mining, heavy industry, and exploration), it is soothing.
Belkar 08-03-07, 02:10 PM	On souls: Warforged do not have souls (those lucky ********). They do, however, have minds which are emergent properties of their bodies. In essence warforged share some similarities to outsiders in that they have an essentially monistic nature. Not quite buying this. No souls means they can't be resurrected - and yet they can... ;)
Darth Syntax 08-03-07, 02:18 PM	The lack of a soul doesn't prevent resurrection if the whole of the personality is tied to the physical being. Fix the warforged, give it a good jolt and, hey presto, and resurrected warforged. The fact that warforged don't die so much as go inactive when damaged to severely seems to back up this theory. Also, as ressurection is, thankfully, vanishingly rare in Eberron it's entirely possible that no warforged has ever been resurrected and thus there is not yet an answer to the question.
Belkar 08-03-07, 05:41 PM	The lack of a soul doesn't prevent resurrection if the whole of the personality is tied to the physical being. Fix the warforged, give it a good jolt and, hey presto, and resurrected warforged. The fact that warforged don't die so much as go inactive when damaged to severely seems to back up this theory. Also, as ressurection is, thankfully, vanishingly rare in Eberron it's entirely possible that no warforged has ever been resurrected and thus there is not yet an answer to the question. True. But from a game mechanics point of view, ECS is very clear that warfoged can be resurrected. And if you bang a warfoged down to below -10 HP, there's no amount of "repair" that can be done. And while its valid to consider that no resurrection might yet have occured to a wf, it's highly probable that a raise dead or reincarnation has... ;)
LoneStranger 08-03-07, 07:42 PM	I dont get where you think WF are small...or at least smaller than 'normal' constructs. A vast majority of constructs in the game are Medium or smaller. As far as I can see, golems are the only constructs bigger than that, with a few side exceptions. The thing that actually does make them different than almost all other constructs is the fact that they are Alive. Not just sentient, but actual true living beings. As such, they can be mind controlled, have their life energy drained, or be brought back to life, justlike any other living being. Hope that clears things up a bit... I was under the impression most constructs were large or so, oops oh well. No no no! I'm not saying contoversial in a powerplay way. I think they are very balance and most poeple I know agrees. I wrote that for a philosophical point of view. Are they "alive"? Are they really sentient? Are they mere object that deserve to be slaves? Do they have souls? What happens when they die? That kind of stuff. Ah gotcha, in the fluff they are very controversial since they're a visible reminder of the last war, "job stealers", and generally considered to be a threat to the other races especially with the Lord of Blades floating around. If they're alive or not is more philisophical than controversial. Sorry for taking that in the wrong context.
Dr. Benway 08-04-07, 10:21 AM	The trouble with this, and many other, definitions of robot is that is not properly incluseive of many of the fictional entities that are commonly referred to as "robots". The original robots (as described in Rossum's Universal Robots by Karel Čapek) were actually more akin to the androids in the Alien movies or in the Hyperion Cantos being as they were essentially artificial people. The Warforged are very much a race of "artifical people" and thus are robots. Now granted they are not the same kind of robot as your classic 50's sci-fi robot, or the ones we actually have built and working, but they are still robots within the larger umbrella of fiction. I am willing to give you this one. If you define the term robot as meaning "artificial people", with everything the word "person" implies, then yeah, I'll concede this one. However... On souls: Warforged do not have souls (those lucky ********). They do, however, have minds which are emergent properties of their bodies. In essence warforged share some similarities to outsiders in that they have an essentially monistic nature. According to the ECS and everything else ever written about Warforged, this is just plain wrong. Now, I am a big fan of taking what is in the books and changing it to meet your campaign, thats fine. So long as you are aware that is what you are doing. On being alive: Warforged are not alive as they do not metabolize, produce waste, or produce offspring. They do, however, possess sentience and they do react to stimuli. So we are left with an interesting concept, a non-living yet sentient person. I am afraid that this conclusion is also wrong. The books implicitly describe them as being alive...they can bleed, feel pain, suffer emotional trauma, and do everything else a living being does except metabolize or reproduce. If you need any further proof, simply look at that creature type: Living Construct. On psychology: The warforged mind is a complicated thing and although somewhat analogous to a human mind, it's workings are very different. Warforged were created as soldiers, raised on the battlefield, and taught little more than how to obey and kill. They are thus more comfortable in situations that mimic the conditions of battle than they are siting around enjoying peace. Indeed, peace and quiet to them is about as alien, stressful, and horrifying as being in the trenches would be for most humanoids. The normal state of affairs for a warforged involved being put at great risk of dieing and having those around you endure the same; because this is the normal state of affairs for them they activly seek out professions that mimic war-conditions. This explains why so many warforged find employment in the more dangerous professions (deep-mining, heavy industry, and exploration), it is soothing. Although a lot could be said about their psychology and their soldier mentality, I just want to point out that the Warforged made by house Cannith during the war fit your description well. However, they are not the only Warforged made, and the psychology of a WF is based on their upbringing and life experiences, the same as any other living thinking creature. Compare them to the soldiers of our own world after coming back from an experience like Viet Nam, and the parallels are clear. Yes civilian life is difficult for WF...mostly because they have never had any experience with it. Just like a soldier who had to completely change his personality to survive in the jungle, the transition back is difficult. But not impossible. WF are just as capable of becoming an Apostle of Peace as a Warforged Juggernaut, but thats the great part about being a freewilled living being...you can make those choices. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
yrogerg 08-04-07, 10:51 AM	HK-47! W00T! It would be kinda hard to adopt his speaking characteristics and not be robotic. Unless you just went with WFJ. More like one of the HK-50s, actually. HK-47 never used adverbs to modify his words like they do.
TheKeyofE 08-05-07, 02:35 AM	The normal state of affairs for a warforged involved being put at great risk of dieing and having those around you endure the same; because this is the normal state of affairs for them they activly seek out professions that mimic war-conditions. This explains why so many warforged find employment in the more dangerous professions (deep-mining, heavy industry, and exploration), it is soothing. I think this has much more to do with the fact that those are extremely high risk occupations. Humans and other races will avoid those kind of occupations unless they have no choice; warforged choose (or are forced into -- indentured servitude) those occupations because they don't mind the risk, not because they enjoy it, or because it "soothes" them.
Roland_of_the_Eld 08-11-07, 12:40 AM	Warforged were made to fight in the Last War. When it ended, they had to adapt to the world around them to make a "living" for themselves. By all biological means, they are machine. But the things that set them apart are their personality, their AI, and their own personal beliefs. See, this is where I imagine the difference. You say that Warforged have Artificial Intelligence. But what's so artificial about it? If the Warforged are supposed to be "living constructs," then i would say that their intelligence is all natural. A naturally has no intelligence. In fact, it is just a big paperweight without the right programming. Not so with Warforged. Upon creation, they have a base knowledge level, which varies from one Warforged to the next, and they learn as they go on. If anything, that sounds like a child to me. Thus, Warforged aren't robots.
Edymnion 08-11-07, 06:18 PM	Hope it didnt offend you.Nope, not at all. :)