Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 02-24-07, 01:54 PM	One thing that's noted in Complete Divine is that "unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity." Obviously, favored souls of individual deities (Kol Korran, Dol Dorn, the Mockery, the Traveller, etc.) are still permissible, since they're devoted to actual deities. Devoting oneself to the Sovereign Host or the Dark Six as a whole is more dubious, by the rules of Complete Divine, since it does not explicitly say that Favored Souls can devote themselves to a pantheon rather than an individual deity. By Complete Divine, the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, the Path of Light, Khyber Cultists, the Undying Court, and the Keepers of the Past cannot have favored souls, since these are all non-deity sources of divine power. However, I'd be inclined to house rule that the Silver Flame should get favored souls, because... they just should, damnit! I mean, Thranish people hear voices in their heads about how Tira Miron wants YOU to fight against evil, and Favored Souls just seem so right for that.
snakebliskan 02-24-07, 02:03 PM	the silver flame is basicly a single entity as far as im concerned. so I would say that there are favored souls of the flame!
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 02:29 PM	One thing that's noted in Complete Divine is that "unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity." Obviously, favored souls of individual deities (Kol Korran, Dol Dorn, the Mockery, the Traveller, etc.) are still permissible, since they're devoted to actual deities. Devoting oneself to the Sovereign Host or the Dark Six as a whole is more dubious, by the rules of Complete Divine, since it does not explicitly say that Favored Souls can devote themselves to a pantheon rather than an individual deity. By Complete Divine, the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, the Path of Light, Khyber Cultists, the Undying Court, and the Keepers of the Past cannot have favored souls, since these are all non-deity sources of divine power. However, I'd be inclined to house rule that the Silver Flame should get favored souls, because... they just should, damnit! I mean, Thranish people hear voices in their heads about how Tira Miron wants YOU to fight against evil, and Favored Souls just seem so right for that. um....Technicaly a DM can say there are no favored souls in Eberron...as all the gods might just be conceptual.
The_Last_Rogue 02-24-07, 02:31 PM	Mayhaps the Undying Court? I could see the deathless, essentially initiating certain elves with extra blessing or training thereby creating the 'Favored Souls'
JulesCARV 02-24-07, 02:41 PM	um....Technicaly a DM can say there are no favored souls in Eberron...as all the gods might just be conceptual. Sure. Everything outside of the core eleven and the artificer are optional for Eberron games (although Eberron materials seem to strongly suggest that the expanded psionics handbook classes have a place in Eberron). A DM has no need to admit any material from the "Completes" or any other books.
SSj3goblin 02-24-07, 02:50 PM	By Complete Divine, the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, the Path of Light, Khyber Cultists, the Undying Court, and the Keepers of the Past cannot have favored souls, since these are all non-deity sources of divine power. So Khyber is not a god of some sort? I'd think that an immense mythic dragon that had an hand in creating the world would qualify as such.
tallric_kruush 02-24-07, 02:56 PM	So Khyber is not a god of some sort? I'd think that an immense mythic dragon that had an hand in creating the world would qualify as such. The only group I've ever seen portrayed as worshipping Khyber itself was a kobold group in one of the archived Eberron articles. Dragon Below cultists/worshippers are invariably serving some evil bound within Khyber, not Khyber itself. Not even the dragons seem to worship the progenitors. I'd say no, Khyber isn't a god at all. Besides, if Khyber had Favored Souls, what about Eberron and Siberys? I wouldn't open that can of worms. It doesn't seem to fit the setting at all. That's just my two cents, though.
mhacdebhandia 02-24-07, 05:02 PM	If you want to be picky, the Silver Flame is described as a deity in the Eberron Campaign Setting on page 67: The lawful good deity called the Silver Flame is an abstract, disembodied force closely associated with a once-human woman named Tira Miron. Even if you wanted to be strict about the idea of some intelligent deific entity deliberately "favouring" the favoured soul, Tira Miron would be a perfect choice. She is the Voice of the Flame, after all. Personally, I like the idea that favoured souls only worship the Silver Flame - all of them are called by Tira as the Voice of the Flame. It distinguishes the Church of the Silver Flame from the other faiths of Eberron, it means that favoured souls can be treated as a new, rare phenomenon, and it reinforces the ambiguity of the gods' existence - is it significant that only the Flame, with Tira as its intermediary with the mortal world, can have these servants? Of course, the wings a favoured soul acquires at 17th level would have to be the rainbow-coloured wings of a couatl. :) (Would the Whispering Flame have the power to call its own favoured souls?)
tallric_kruush 02-24-07, 05:06 PM	Would the Whispering Flame have the power to call its own favoured souls? That's an interesting idea.
Nuclear_Buddha 02-24-07, 06:29 PM	One thing that's noted in Complete Divine is that "unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity." Why not just diregard that? It's not as if it really has much bearing on how the class works. It just takes tiny changes to the flavor to make, for instance, a Favored Soul of the Blood of Vol: They're just an exemplar of the belief that there is a spark of the divine within each person. They nuture theirs to greater prominence through belief in the religion, thereby gaining their class abilities. Instead of bat wings, they grow membranous skeins of living blood to take to the air in defiance of the uncaring so-called "dieties" of the Host.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 07:23 PM	Sure. Everything outside of the core eleven and the artificer are optional for Eberron games (although Eberron materials seem to strongly suggest that the expanded psionics handbook classes have a place in Eberron). A DM has no need to admit any material from the "Completes" or any other books. I think you missed my point. What I am saying is a case can be made that all the gods of Eberron are just conceptual. This mean you could say that all religions are based on concepts... These concepts can grant spells...Which means these concepts can have favorites or people who are the ideals of those concepts ver highly. Thus Favored Souls in Eberron for all the deities. Sort of like a sorcerer can tap in on arcane magic without study...these people are so strong in the concepts of a given faith they can tap into the same energy the clerics can caturaly.(Though I still wouldn't make bloodline like a sorcerer)
Just another user 02-24-07, 07:29 PM	One thing that's noted in Complete Divine is that "unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity." That is fluff (flavor), not crunch (rules) and my opinion of classes fluff in Wotc products is that is much better to ignore it because generally it is either stupid or useless. I'd rather take the mechanics and adapt to to whatever concept I think is appropriate. to answer your question, Which religion can have Favored souls in Eberron ? Whichever the GM thinks are appropriate.
SSj3goblin 02-25-07, 10:24 AM	The only group I've ever seen portrayed as worshipping Khyber itself was a kobold group in one of the archived Eberron articles. Dragon Below cultists/worshippers are invariably serving some evil bound within Khyber, not Khyber itself. Not even the dragons seem to worship the progenitors. I'd say no, Khyber isn't a god at all. Besides, if Khyber had Favored Souls, what about Eberron and Siberys. I wouldn't open that can of worms. It doesn't seem to fit the setting at all. That's just my two cents, though. :rofl: Five nation does include a Follower of Syberys (and I even believe she's a cleric) at the enclave of house Jorasco in Fairhaven. So there are followers of the progenitor wyrms, they are just rare/marginal (in the case of Khyber cultists), I don't see how this could be a "pandora's box". And the only way I could agree with you that the progenitor wyrms are not god is that they are Overgods (wich they probably were).
Cifer 02-25-07, 04:46 PM	I'd definitely allow favored souls for a religion a player chooses. Whether the other religions would have them... well, that's another question. I'd say making FSes unique to a religion would be cool. The host would have the standard ones. Silver flame would get the aforementioned Couatl wings for the Chosen of Tira. BoV gets a skeleton wing with bloody membranes for its champions in the war against Death and the gods. Khyber and the other Dragon-below cults get the standard bat membranes for someone who made a pact with [insert mean big entity here] The Undying Court gets emaciated wings for elves undergoing special rituals, since Aerenal has foes who are not undead (FS doesn't get turning). And so on...
The White Sorcerer 02-25-07, 05:00 PM	In my campaigns I'm restricting favored souls to the Nine and the Six.
Donald_Cannith 02-25-07, 10:12 PM	Se I am doing just the opposite. There is substantial feeling that the 9 and the 6 do not really exist. However, i could see Daelkyr being powerful enough to grant that kind of power as well as the silver flame( as that appears to be the most powerful force in the plane to begin with.) The Undying court I can agree with but not Blood of Vol seeing as Vol isnt deific at all. but thats just my eberron.
mhacdebhandia 02-25-07, 10:43 PM	Donald, the power level of Erandis d'Vol has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Blood of Vol. She's like the secret Pope of the Blood of Vol, not its goddess - she appears in their liturgy and scripture only as a mythical "Queen of the Dead", and the vast majority of believers and even priests are completely ignorant of her existence. The Blood of Vol dates back to the traditions of the elven family line of Vol, the traditions themselves derived from the Qabalrin elves of Xen'drik, not to Erandis setting up a cult. That she secretly manipulates it is evidence of her deviousness, not her divinity.
JulesCARV 02-25-07, 10:59 PM	Se I am doing just the opposite. There is substantial feeling that the 9 and the 6 do not really exist. However, i could see Daelkyr being powerful enough to grant that kind of power as well as the silver flame( as that appears to be the most powerful force in the plane to begin with.) The Undying court I can agree with but not Blood of Vol seeing as Vol isnt deific at all. but thats just my eberron. Donald_Cannith, when you say "There is substantial feeling that the 9 and the 6 do not really exist," among whom do you mean there is such feeling? Among the general populace of Eberron who aren't hard-core worshippers of the Sovereign Host or the Dark Six? Among Eberron players? Within your specific gaming group?
Donald_Cannith 02-25-07, 11:31 PM	Well I feel that whle reading the All-Inclusive Host entry in PgtE( Ikno not anyones favorite book but its all flavor whichis what we're dealng with here) with all of the usurping of gods and the genral feelign that there is not contact with the gods adds to the effect that they most likely don't exist or at very least are not active enoguhto bother with granting favored Souls power. Especially, I feel that a majority of the Silver Flame and the druidic sects probably believe the Sovreign host doesn't exist. Also, yesamong my particular gaming group which is realy the easiest resource and grou pof people I have ot haet his sort of discussion with.
Donald_Cannith 02-25-07, 11:33 PM	Donald, the power level of Erandis d'Vol has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Blood of Vol. She's like the secret Pope of the Blood of Vol, not its goddess - she appears in their liturgy and scripture only as a mythical "Queen of the Dead", and the vast majority of believers and even priests are completely ignorant of her existence. The Blood of Vol dates back to the traditions of the elven family line of Vol, the traditions themselves derived from the Qabalrin elves of Xen'drik, not to Erandis setting up a cult. That she secretly manipulates it is evidence of her deviousness, not her divinity. I know that, but that means there is no actual source of power within the Cult of the Blood of Vol. I was thinking the only entity or power source behind the cult capable( maybe) of doing that would be Erandis herself. So yes you admit that there is NO source of power behnd the cult, thereby making it tough to have a favored soul granted power by them.
MartM 02-26-07, 01:45 AM	Player's guide to Eberron page 139... That suggest that Favored soul are all (with few exception) tied to one deity of the Host/Dark six.
Tevin Kevlak 02-26-07, 01:57 AM	I know that, but that means there is no actual source of power within the Cult of the Blood of Vol. I was thinking the only entity or power source behind the cult capable( maybe) of doing that would be Erandis herself. So yes you admit that there is NO source of power behnd the cult, thereby making it tough to have a favored soul granted power by them. There are however Clerics of the Blood of Vol, they gain their power some way do they not? And from what I understand of the setting this power derives from the unyeilding faith one has in their given religion or dogma, why can favored souls not tap into this same power through devotion?
JulesCARV 02-26-07, 11:09 AM	There are however Clerics of the Blood of Vol, they gain their power some way do they not? And from what I understand of the setting this power derives from the unyeilding faith one has in their given religion or dogma, why can favored souls not tap into this same power through devotion? Well, you're free to house rule that this doesn't apply in Eberron, but the specific answer to your question, since you ask, is that Complete Divine sez "unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity." I'd say clerics of the Blood of Vol clearly devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power.
ArcTan 02-26-07, 01:14 PM	[QUOTE=JulesCARV;11576874]One thing that's noted in Complete Divine is that "unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity."/QUOTE] In a setting where the existence of literal deities -- i.e. beings who receive Divine Rank a la Deities & Demigods -- is unprovable and may be false, all statements like these should be ignored. Otherwise, the existence of Favored Souls for some gods and not for others would be evidence of those gods' literal existence.
Tevin Kevlak 02-26-07, 03:03 PM	Well, you're free to house rule that this doesn't apply in Eberron, but the specific answer to your question, since you ask, is that Complete Divine sez "unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity." I'd say clerics of the Blood of Vol clearly devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power. So, the only thing you believe that is preventing favored souls from being a part of Eberron is what the fluff text in a non-eberron book says? It's a simple fix really, don't impose that silly rule in a campaign setting where none of the deities are proven to exist. Allow them to gain their power the same way as clerics and you can have a favored soul of whatever religion you want.
Donald_Cannith 02-26-07, 03:35 PM	So, the only thing you believe that is preventing favored souls from being a part of Eberron is what the fluff text in a non-eberron book says? It's a simple fix really, don't impose that silly rule in a campaign setting where none of the deities are proven to exist. Allow them to gain their power the same way as clerics and you can have a favored soul of whatever religion you want. Thats fine for your game, but for mine I have ruled that the silver flame, undying court, and Dragon Below are the only groups capable of doing it. If this doesnt appeal to you fine I was simply offering my view on it.
Tevin Kevlak 02-26-07, 03:40 PM	Thats fine for your game, but for mine I have ruled that the silver flame, undying court, and Dragon Below are the only groups capable of doing it. If this doesnt appeal to you fine I was simply offering my view on it. As was I, really. Like I said you can have favored souls of whatever religion you want and you did just that. You wanted favored souls of the silver flame, the undying court, and the dragon below, and that appeals to me just fine. It's your Eberron do with it what you will.
ArcTan 02-26-07, 04:19 PM	:rofl: Five nation does include a Follower of Syberys (and I even believe she's a cleric) at the enclave of house Jorasco in Fairhaven. That's because she believes in the general need for people to rise above themselves and serve a greater good, which Siberys conceptually represents. It doesn't mean she literally believes in Siberys as a god, any more than wearing an Ouroboros in real life means you really believe in Ouroboros as a god. She's working for a Jorasco enclave, after all, which means she's working outside of any existing church structure. And the only way I could agree with you that the progenitor wyrms are not god is that they are Overgods (wich they probably were). Or that they didn't actually literally exist and are metaphors for some broader concept, which I think is more probable. Eberron doesn't have gods by the D&DG rules -- not one single god has ever been statted up with HD and a divine rank and list of SDAs. By that ruling, they don't technically have the denotation "Overgod" either. You can make a vague case that the Progenitors serve the kind of purpose Ao does in Forgotten Realms, but it's really quite different.
tallric_kruush 02-26-07, 04:46 PM	:rofl: Five nation does include a Follower of Syberys (and I even believe she's a cleric) at the enclave of house Jorasco in Fairhaven. So there are followers of the progenitor wyrms, they are just rare/marginal (in the case of Khyber cultists), I don't see how this could be a "pandora's box". And the only way I could agree with you that the progenitor wyrms are not god is that they are Overgods (wich they probably were). It's not that I think of it as "Pandora's Box", or the like. I just think it's sort of a silly idea that, implemented even a single time, is bound to keep rearing its ugly head. That said, maybe the ridiculousness of it all makes it even more suitable for some numbskull NPC/PC to make it his religion. People worship strange things, after all. I read that reference to the Cleric Haneela d'Jorasco completely differently than you did, I guess. It says: "Haneela channels divine power from the spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above, so she's affiliated with no particular deity." Anytime I see "channels power from the dragon above", that seems to reference drawing on the ambient magic of the world, which magic is usually attributed to Siberys (just as Eberron and Khyber are attributed their respective "children"). Haneela, in my reading, was no Cleric of Siberys. She was a Cleric/Healer who draws on the ambient magic of her world. That said, the kobolds in the article I mentioned were said to worship Khyber as a god. So, yeah, it could work. I personally just don't really care for the idea.:) Several ways of looking at the faiths and divine magic of Eberron have been proposed (for both in and out of game) , and it's really been left up to each DM and player to decide what he and his character believe (a kind DM may not enforce his own view, but prefer to keep that discussion in-game). In my mind divine magic comes from the same source as arcane magic. It's no gift of the gods, who may or may not even exist (though I tend to think they do, or a least did). It is drawn from that ambient magic of the world to which the writers have occassionally referred. The Cleric or Druid or Favored Soul draws on this magic through faith, the Sorceror through natural talent, the Wizard through a practiced formulaic method. In my mind it's all the same magic. It's just accessed differently. So in my Eberron there will never be overgods. To me, that's FR. In Eberron, no one can prove the gods exist. In FR, they've walked the face of Toril. I'd never enforce this view (or even express it) in-game. This is the stuff for NPC sages (and maybe message board nerds;)) to debate.
Just another user 02-26-07, 05:15 PM	I know that, but that means there is no actual source of power within the Cult of the Blood of Vol. I was thinking the only entity or power source behind the cult capable( maybe) of doing that would be Erandis herself. So yes you admit that there is NO source of power behnd the cult, thereby making it tough to have a favored soul granted power by them. the blood is the power. You could say that a favored soul of the BoV is someone with a particolary strong divine spark into his blood.
Kid SixXx 02-27-07, 07:42 PM	I think you missed my point. What I am saying is a case can be made that all the gods of Eberron are just conceptual. Well, the Silver Flame is a near-exception. Unlike the gods of the Host or the Six, the Silver Flame is sitting right there in Flamekeep or the Demon Wastes for your personal inspection, and the effect the Flamekeep source on the Speaker is pretty evident. It's not a concept: it has a physical manifestation in the "real world." The hitch is that the mechanics of the flame (ie. it's never given a divine rank of at least 0) still leaves the question of whether or not the flame is a "god" up in the air. The mechanic of divine spells granted via the faith of the believer works for all religions of Eberron. If there were no actual Silver Flame, belief in it would still be sufficient enough to grant clerical abilities. Oddly enough, the Lord of Blades sorta fits here as well. Despite his "official stats," you can still adopt the position that the LoBster is more concept than actual killer messiah, and that the faith in the liberation of all Warforged is what gives his cult their divine magic.
tallric_kruush 02-27-07, 08:59 PM	Well, the Silver Flame is a near-exception. Unlike the gods of the Host or the Six, the Silver Flame is sitting right there in Flamekeep or the Demon Wastes for your personal inspection...It's not a concept: it has a physical manifestation in the "real world." Agreed. The fact that you can literally see the Flame means that it's definitely real. The followers of the Sovereign Host, for example, can't point to the Sovereigns and say: "Yep, that be them." The hitch is that the mechanics of the flame (ie. it's never given a divine rank of at least 0) still leaves the question of whether or not the flame is a "god" up in the air. I would definitely say that the Flame is not a god, beyond being a god in the sense that it's worshipped.:thinks: Okay, so that's pretty much all it takes to be a god. I would still classify the Flame as divine, but not as a god, as it doesn't seem to be an entity. (Of course most of its worshippers don't even have the history/factual reference that the couatls shed their bodies and bound the fiends in Khyber, thereby creating the "Flame". Some of Khorvaire's historians and theologians speculate, but they don't know for sure and can't prove their claims). The mechanic of divine spells granted via the faith of the believer works for all religions of Eberron. If there were no actual Silver Flame, belief in it would still be sufficient enough to grant clerical abilities. I agree. This is what makes the faiths of Eberron different than the faiths of other settings. Divine magic seems to be drawn from the ambient magic of the world, rather than coming from any divine beings. Those who wield it seem to do so by virtue of their faith. A Wizard has his tomes and formulaic study, the sorceror and warlock their natural talent, and the Cleric/Druid/Paladin/etc... has his faith. They are just different ways of wielding the same ambient magic of the world--"the spiritual remnants of the dragon above." Oddly enough, the Lord of Blades sorta fits here as well. Despite his "official stats," you can still adopt the position that the LoBster is more concept than actual killer messiah, and that the faith in the liberation of all Warforged is what gives his cult their divine magic This was a bit of a head-scratcher the first time I heard about it. I don't have FoE, though I'll likely buy it sooner or later. I'm not sure I'll implement the idea of this "faith" in my games. Nonetheless, I agree that it's a perfect example of the point you're making (and the point I've tried to champion a time or two as well), that it's the warforgeds' faith that grants them Divine Magic in this case, not the Lord of Blades. I don't think anyone on the boards (though, perhaps, I say as I shouldn't) would argue that the Lord of Blades is a deity capable of granting Divine Magic.
mhacdebhandia 02-28-07, 08:01 AM	So yes you admit that there is NO source of power behnd the cult, thereby making it tough to have a favored soul granted power by them. I'm not suggesting that the Blood of Vol would have favoured souls. However, I would argue that "a favoured soul must be chosen by her deity" is unimportant flavour text that does not have to apply in Eberron.
Kid SixXx 02-28-07, 08:26 AM	I would still classify the Flame as divine, but not as a god, as it doesn't seem to be an entity. (Of course most of its worshippers don't even have the history/factual reference that the couatls shed their bodies and bound the fiends in Khyber, thereby creating the "Flame". Some of Khorvaire's historians and theologians speculate, but they don't know for sure and can't prove their claims). I tend to concur with your conclusions. The Flame certainly is an extradimensional curiosity or a spritual anomoly, but whether or not it is actually divine is a matter of discourse. I also tend to think it is divine, but others may disagree. I don't think anyone on the boards (though, perhaps, I say as I shouldn't) would argue that the Lord of Blades is a deity capable of granting Divine Magic. Well, the static stats of the LoB sort of annoy me, even though I do enjoy the Dr. Doom feel of the stat block. It sends the message that there is only one Lord of Blades; that is good for endgame scenarios but limits the DM's ability to tinker with things. In my campaigns, I've usually used the old "Dread Pirate Roberts" ploy from The Princess Bride and promoted the notion that the "Lord of Blades" as leader (ie. the guy with the sword and the homonculi) isn't a single entity, but a role assumed by the most dominant WF model at the time: he commands the armies, while the cult provides the spiritual guidance behind the miltary might. The "Lord of Blades" then becomes almost a jihadist group think; arguably the closest that Eberron will come to a terrorist / liberationalist organization. In a sense, all of the Warforged striving to make the Mournlands an independant Warforged nation make up the "body" of the "Lord of Blades."
Nightshade 02-28-07, 06:20 PM	I believe that in a thread long gone now, Keith said that he envisioned Raksasha Rajahs as having Divine rank. Worshipers of the Rajahs could seemingly become Favored Souls. I've banned all the non-core and Artificer classes from my game but I thought that I'd throw in my 2cp.
Cifer 03-01-07, 10:30 AM	In my campaigns, I've usually used the old "Dread Pirate Roberts" ploy from The Princess Bride and promoted the notion that the "Lord of Blades" as leader (ie. the guy with the sword and the homonculi) isn't a single entity, but a role assumed by the most dominant WF model at the time: he commands the armies, while the cult provides the spiritual guidance behind the miltary might. Well, we all know You can't kill the Messiah!, don't we?
JulesCARV 03-01-07, 01:21 PM	Player's guide to Eberron page 139... That suggest that Favored soul are all (with few exception) tied to one deity of the Host/Dark six. Thanks. I don't have PGtE, but I appreciate the reference.
Millenia 03-01-07, 02:17 PM	In my campaigns, I've usually used the old "Dread Pirate Roberts" ploy from The Princess Bride and promoted the notion that the "Lord of Blades" as leader (ie. the guy with the sword and the homonculi) isn't a single entity, but a role assumed by the most dominant WF model at the time: he commands the armies, while the cult provides the spiritual guidance behind the miltary might. The "Lord of Blades" then becomes almost a jihadist group think; arguably the closest that Eberron will come to a terrorist / liberationalist organization. In a sense, all of the Warforged striving to make the Mournlands an independant Warforged nation make up the "body" of the "Lord of Blades." ... V for Vendetta, anyone? :D
ArcTan 03-01-07, 05:41 PM	I believe that in a thread long gone now, Keith said that he envisioned Raksasha Rajahs as having Divine rank. Worshipers of the Rajahs could seemingly become Favored Souls. They don't literally have Divine Rank. They have many abilities associated with DR, like Salient Divine Abilities, but they explicitly lack the power to grant divine spells. Nothing grants divine spells in Eberron.
The White Sorcerer 03-02-07, 08:54 AM	Nothing grants divine spells in Eberron. What about the Nine and Six? Yeah yeah, nobody knows for sure that they exist and all that, but if they do exist they most likely grant divine spells.
Cifer 03-02-07, 09:22 AM	but if they do exist they most likely grant divine spells. Why should they? Divine spells obviously work without anything divine powering them, as can be seen with the BoV which definitely hasn't got anything with divine ranks or divine powers behind it. Plus, if there was a religion which had actual gods granting the spells, there probably would be no corrupt clerics in it - but it's exactly the Nine which seem to have the most of them in Sharn.
ArcTan 03-02-07, 11:16 AM	What about the Nine and Six? Yeah yeah, nobody knows for sure that they exist and all that, but if they do exist they most likely grant divine spells. Yes, but from a metagame perspective it is a fact of Eberron that the Sovereign Host will never be written up as a stat block with Hit Dice and Divine Rank, any more than the Lady of Pain will ever be so written up in Planescape.
The White Sorcerer 03-02-07, 04:55 PM	but it's exactly the Nine which seem to have the most of them in Sharn. I thought it was the Flame? I do see your point, though.
The White Sorcerer 03-02-07, 04:56 PM	Yes, but from a metagame perspective it is a fact of Eberron that the Sovereign Host will never be written up as a stat block with Hit Dice and Divine Rank, any more than the Lady of Pain will ever be so written up in Planescape. So a deity needs to have stats to grant divine spells?
Nuclear_Buddha 03-02-07, 05:01 PM	I think probably the only thing anyone or anything needs to grant divine spells is setting or DM fiat.
JulesCARV 03-02-07, 05:08 PM	what about a cleric who worships the Lady of Pain and makes sure that he never, ever sets foot in Sigil? Planescape, unless I'm mistaken, uses a divine magic system halfway between Forgotten Realms and Eberron, it seems: deities (powers) do undeniably exist, and they do grant divine spells, but you can also be a divinely-empowered cleric without worshipping a deity (like Fall-from-Grace in Torment). If a cleric of the Lady of Pain worshipped her and never came to Sigil, would he be able to cast spells in her name, while her Serenity would just have to grit her teeth and put up with it?
Cifer 03-02-07, 07:42 PM	@Jules I would expect that said unlucky guy would have to be rather wary of doorways and other enclosed openings, lest he steps through a rather one-way portal someone created for him...
tallric_kruush 03-03-07, 11:17 PM	I think probably the only thing anyone or anything needs to grant divine spells is setting or DM fiat. I know Monte Cook has expressed regret at building the Arcane/Divine distinction into 3rd Edition. He said he felt differentiating the two via game mechanics had been the creative team's biggest mistake, and that whether the DM wanted Divine magic to be granted by deities or not was a matter of flavor and choice for the individual DM to make (of course). I've always liked that in Eberron the "Divine" Magic isn't even necessarily divine. It makes the setting somewhat unique (at least compared to the settings I've played in), and gives it a slightly more real world feel.
JulesCARV 03-04-07, 01:03 PM	With the exception of Forgotten Realms, I don't think that divine magic in general really requires divine intervention, or even faith. Some divine spellcasting classes, such as the archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3), the ranger (www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/ranger.html), and the chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1), can get divine spells without revering a deity and without even having any fervent belief in some ideal (a ranger may be a "pseudo-druid" in casting, but there's nothing saying that they lose divine spells if they stop revering nature and decide to become the heads of clear-cutting logging companies or anything). It's just that some specific classes do have requirements of some form of reverence or worship. This isn't really limited to divine classes: arcane spellcasters also have behavioral requirements, such as not being too lawful in a bard's or wu jen's case (wu jen's also have taboos), and not being good in a dread necromancer's case. In the case of clerics, they must revere a deity, a pantheon, a non-theocentric religion, or some non-religious ideal (punishing the wicked, maximizing aggregate utility, obtaining real ultimate power, or whatever). In the case of druids, it's revering nature. Complete Divine specifies that favored souls follow a deity. Admittedly, though, much of Complete Divine is not applicable to Eberron, since it is based primarily around Greyhawk deities, such as Pelor and Olidammara. Since much of CDiv should either be tossed out or heavily adapted before being used in Eberron, it makes sense to sy that Favored Souls also are eligible for adaptation. Then again, if you just say that Favored Souls are servants of individual Sovereigns or members of the Dark Six, they work fine straight out of Complete Divine -- although it regrettable does inhibit some neat favored soul concepts such as a favored soul of the Silver Flame (maybe going into Exorcist of the Silver Flame), which is why some might prefer to adapt it rather than use it straight out of Complete Divine as is. So I don't really see it as a generalized issue of "where does divine magic come from?" since archivists, for instance, can be divine casters without worshipping an established religion or even having some nebulous "faith in an ideal" that clerics require at minimum. It's just the specific class of the Favored Soul might be adapted in a number of ways: the minimalist adaptation, straight from Complete Divine, would be that they can just worship one of the Six or the Nine. A somewhat more generous adaptation would allow them to worship established pantheon-based or non-theocentric religions, such as the Sovereign Host as a whole, the Silver Flame, or the Blood of Vol. An even more generous adaptation would be to allow them to worship an ideal or concept that isn't established as a religion, like clerics (with favored weapon being limited to martial weapons, probably). An even more generous adaptation would be to allow them to be just a different type of sorcerer, drawing from a different spell list and having different powers, but not requiring any sort of faith or devotion to any religion, concept, or ideal (although they probably tend to be rather religious).
tallric_kruush 03-04-07, 01:45 PM	I think this thread had meandered a bit until JulesCARV's post above. I must preface this post by pointing out I don't have CDiv and I am not completely familiar with all the requirements of the class. I do have a pretty good understanding, though, I believe. I agree that for the Favored Soul, if it's to be allowed in Eberron, we would do well to give it liberties similar to those that have been given the Cleric. In Eberron, the Cleric no longer has to be of the same alignment as his deity. Perhaps the Favored Soul must simply stick with the alignment requirements of his faith/deity. A FS of the Silver Flame, for instance, must be LG (or NG if the one step of seperation applies with the FS). He, unlike the Cleric, must truly represent the alignment and ideals of his faith. You may run across a LE Cleric of the Silver Flame, but you'd never encounter an evil Favored Soul of the same faith. I think this would be the way I'd play it if I had FSouls in my game.
ArcTan 03-04-07, 08:21 PM	I thought it was the Flame? I do see your point, though. No, worshippers of the Sovereign outnumber worshippers of the Flame in Sharn, and in most regions of Khorvaire outside Thrane and the immediately adjoining provinces of Aundair, IIRC. It does seem obvious that there are more "corrupt" Sovereign priests than Flame priests, though this is up in the air because the definition of "corrupt" for the Sovereign Host is far more lenient.
ArcTan 03-04-07, 08:22 PM	So a deity needs to have stats to grant divine spells? To "grant divine spells" in a D&DG sense, yes. Even in a campaign where the Host existed I wouldn't say they "granted divine spells" in a D&DG sense. Their existence allows people who claim faith in them to use divine magic, but they themselves don't ever seem to exercise *any* voluntary control over who can cast divine magic and who can't -- since, as keeps getting pointed out, you can be as Evil as Evil gets but Dol Arrah doesn't lift a finger to take away your ability to cast harm on innocent civilians.
Daydreamer 03-14-07, 03:32 AM	I play by the RAW in eberron, but when im playing Fr i mandate that a deity be worshiped for spells. If you want magic without gods, cast arcane i felt. Additionally, what if someone decides to be a follower of the local bartender (or fellow pc) and says his character really believes it. IN this case you could have a 20th level priest worshipping a 0th level bartender (good i suppose for hte bartender) and getting powerful spells for this... the concept always struck me as absurd, either someone is granting the spells, or you must learn how to cast them sytimatically (ie a wizard) or by some natural power ( ie a sorceror). Its a pet peeve, but in eberron i deal with it.
Arcane Guyver 03-14-07, 04:37 AM	the concept always struck me as absurd, either someone is granting the spells, or you must learn how to cast them sytimatically (ie a wizard) or by some natural power ( ie a sorceror). Well, in this case, Archivists, Clerics & Paladins would learn systematically, while Druids and Favored Souls would obtain their abilities from natural power (though Druids still require some amount of training to start on the druidic path). Don't even ask me where Rangers would get their stuff, as I have NO CLUE. I guess the main reason they put restrictions on favored souls in the PGtE (only Sovereigns & Dark Six) is that the class itself seems based on the idea that an FS is the embodiment, the mortal representation of a deity with an established history and personality. In Eberron, there are 15 deities that fit this description, as well as a whole bunch of other religions.
Grey_Mage 03-16-07, 09:08 PM	Rangers are closely tied to the lands they tread... just not as closely as druids. As such, they gain a "feel" for this natural energy that permutates eberron, enabling them to channel small amounts of it on a given day. Their unique point of veiw on the subject is what gives them their handy dandy spell list, as a ranger sees the world in a way no one, not even a druid, sees it.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 04:22 AM	I play by the RAW in eberron, but when im playing Fr i mandate that a deity be worshiped for spells. If you want magic without gods, cast arcane i felt. Additionally, what if someone decides to be a follower of the local bartender (or fellow pc) and says his character really believes it. IN this case you could have a 20th level priest worshipping a 0th level bartender (good i suppose for hte bartender) and getting powerful spells for this... the concept always struck me as absurd, either someone is granting the spells, or you must learn how to cast them sytimatically (ie a wizard) or by some natural power ( ie a sorceror). Its a pet peeve, but in eberron i deal with it. This isn't an Eberron issue. This is a D&D issue. It's always been the case that a Cleric can be aligned with a general philosophy rather than a particular god. It's always been the case that whatever outside power a Cleric taps into, it has more to do with their *faith* in that power than that power actively working on his behalf. Note that by D&DG rules, getting divine spells for worshipping a god works automatically. A god does not voluntarily decide to grant you spells -- she can only voluntarily decide to cut you off if you'd normally get spells from her.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 04:24 AM	Well, in this case, Archivists, Clerics & Paladins would learn systematically, while Druids and Favored Souls would obtain their abilities from natural power (though Druids still require some amount of training to start on the druidic path). Don't even ask me where Rangers would get their stuff, as I have NO CLUE. I guess the main reason they put restrictions on favored souls in the PGtE (only Sovereigns & Dark Six) is that the class itself seems based on the idea that an FS is the embodiment, the mortal representation of a deity with an established history and personality. In Eberron, there are 15 deities that fit this description, as well as a whole bunch of other religions. I suppose if a Favored Soul is someone who views himself as a sort of embodiment or avatar of a god, it's far easier to do this with the anthropomorphized Host than it would be with the Flame, which already *has* an avatar in Flamekeep, or with one of the more abstract religions that purposely downplays the possibility of such a thing.
Cifer 03-17-07, 07:06 PM	@ArcTan On the other hand, it could be said that the Flame would be ideal because everyone can see it's got an embodiment - so why should there be only one? I don't really recognize the difference between the embodiment/avatar of a god and that of an idea.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 08:54 PM	@ArcTan On the other hand, it could be said that the Flame would be ideal because everyone can see it's got an embodiment - so why should there be only one? Because its embodiment is clearly non-human and may not even be sentient as we understand it. I don't really recognize the difference between the embodiment/avatar of a god and that of an idea. Mainly that gods are *defined* as gods rather than merely ideas because they're anthropomorphic beings with personalities and sentience, which means that a human can be its embodiment in a much more natural way. Being a Favored Soul of Dol Dorn might mean you actually look like Dol Dorn in some ways, and act like Dol Dorn acts in the myths, and so on. Being a Favored Soul of the Flame is harder because you can't actually look or act like the Flame itself. You're not *like* the Flame -- you can only study the Flame as an abstract idea and decide to serve it, which is more like a Cleric's frame of mind.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 03-18-07, 03:45 AM	Well its been a long time since I posted (mainly because I don't play anymore, and I spend alot of time at work). However this thread caught my eye, and the chance to put in my 2 coppers seems worth it. Ok first off I must disagree with limiting the Favored Soul class by any of the misconceptions that "they must be chosen". "Chosen" doesn't nessicarily mean the god came down touched him on the shoulder and said, "You have been chosen my child." No no no. I mean that would deffinetly be some sort of deal breaker right there if you ask me. Remember religion in Eberron is based on FAITH!! To me what that says, is the people are Favored Souls, have some kind of fanatical or heretic based belief. Something that makes them that much more over the top with their god, regardless of the truth. A favored soul of Vol for instance, might realize that his god is an undead mortal and continue to get spell, as long as he continues to cling to the core beliefs of the religion, fanatically, looking at Vol as nothing more then a representation to those beliefs. Personally I think the Silver Flame and Syberis are the best 2 choices for Favored Souls. I think that their are numerous options that you are over looking here. Think of it as you would a real world situation. If someone really told you that they where chosen by god, would you picture in your head god coming down and puting his hand on their shoulder and all that??? Or would you picture them standing their with their eyes rolled back in their skull like some bad zombie flick hovering on their tip toes as god surged them with divine power?????
Arcane Guyver 03-18-07, 07:03 AM	Ok first off I must disagree with limiting the Favored Soul class by any of the misconceptions that "they must be chosen". "Chosen" doesn't nessicarily mean the god came down touched him on the shoulder and said, "You have been chosen my child." No no no. I mean that would deffinetly be some sort of deal breaker right there if you ask me. Remember religion in Eberron is based on FAITH!! Even if the gods don't really exist in Eberron, their Favored Souls still must be 'chosen' in a sense. We're talking about one of the extreme minorities here...a character who, if it weren't for being gifted with sorcerous ability, would probably have become one of the rare deity-focused clerics (rather than pantheistic).
mhacdebhandia 03-18-07, 07:39 PM	A favored soul of Vol for instance, might realize that his god is an undead mortal and continue to get spell, as long as he continues to cling to the core beliefs of the religion, fanatically, looking at Vol as nothing more then a representation to those beliefs. All members of the Blood of Vol, if they have faith at all, believe in the inherent power of living blood and the struggle against death. Erandis d'Vol is not the goddess of the faith, and I would argue that even those who know she exists and serve her directly would only revere her as the greatest champion of the faith, not as a divine being. I mean, given that this is a lawful evil religion, it's hard to imagine that at least some of her underlings would not be planning to tear her down and take her place as the secret head of the hierarchy and as the first and greatest among the undead champions who will overthrow Death itself. It would be the rare megalomaniac who would believe they could replace a true deity in that fashion.
The White Sorcerer 03-19-07, 08:09 AM	Of course Erandis isn't a deity. She's undead and, according to the Blood of Vol, undead have lost the divine spark.
JulesCARV 03-19-07, 11:09 PM	Well, in this case, Archivists, Clerics & Paladins would learn systematically, while Druids and Favored Souls would obtain their abilities from natural power (though Druids still require some amount of training to start on the druidic path). Don't even ask me where Rangers would get their stuff, as I have NO CLUE. I always think of the ratio of "systematic learning" to "natural power" is, in shorthand, determined by the age category. "Old" classes, like wizards, druids, clerics, and monks, need extensive training, education, etc to be able to do what they do. "Middle" classes like bards, fighters, paladins, etc, have a mix of inborn, natural power and trained ability. "Young" classes like sorcerers, barbarians, favored souls, etc, primarily rely on their innate abilities and barely need training.