Wild Elves in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wild Elves in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
buddhasmash
03-01-07, 05:51 PM Anyone have any ideas about the role of the Wild Elf subrace in Eberron? Can they be marked? How do they relate to normal elves? Where do they hail from and where are they now? Has Keith said anything about this?
Edymnion
03-01-07, 06:10 PM Anyone have any ideas about the role of the Wild Elf subrace in Eberron?There aren't any. Or shouldn't be, anyway.Can they be marked?Official ruling is that, if allowed, subraces can only take abberant marks, never a true dragonmark.How do they relate to normal elves?If done properly, they are normal elves. They use normal elf stats, and you just roleplay them as being more wild and barbaric.Where do they hail from and where are they now?Any of the monster nations would work. Elves that basically went native with the other beasties.Has Keith said anything about this?Yeah. He hates subraces as much as I do, and did everything he could to keep them out of Eberron. :D
Cabral
03-01-07, 07:02 PM I've been debating adding subraces as optional character options for various regions. It's looking iffy. I'm think Sun Elves for Aernal, standard for Khorvaire, Wood or Wild for Valanar doesn't seem quite right. Wild elves, I'd put in Xendrik as a giant fearing or worshipping remnant of elves that missed the boat.

Doesn't Xendrik have a population issue by now? :)
yrogerg
03-01-07, 09:21 PM Yeah. He hates subraces as much as I do

I don't think it's actually *possible* to hate subraces as much as you do ;)

That said, it's worth pointing out that Hellcow is somewhat affable and diplomatic about his distaste for elf subraces: he's never (AFAIK) said anything more strongly-worded than "I personally wouldn't use them in my campaigns, but if another DM wishes to include them, they could."
Edymnion
03-01-07, 09:28 PM I don't think it's actually *possible* to hate subraces as much as you do ;)

That said, it's worth pointing out that Hellcow is somewhat affable and diplomatic about his distaste for elf subraces: he's never (AFAIK) said anything more strongly-worded than "I personally wouldn't use them in my campaigns, but if another DM wishes to include them, they could."Yeah, but he has to be PC about it. WotC wouldn't look kindly on him saying "Yeah, this entire set of books over here sucks, don't use any of that stuff".

Think about it, have you ever seen him, or any other person actively employeed by WotC in any way, ever say "No, thats a bad idea, don't use that"? It *ALWAYS* gets qualified.
buddhasmash
03-01-07, 09:28 PM This is what I've decided to do, for anyone who's interested in knowing.

Here's an excerpt from the Dragonshard concerning the elves of Valenar:
"In -10,000 YK, Cassael Vadallia led a troop of warriors to the southern coast of Khorvaire, where the Tairnadal established a presence on the continent. These elves called themselves the Valaes Tairn, "warriors of glory." As the elves spread across the southwest, they came into contact with the goblinoid empire of Dhakaan. Isolated skirmishes soon turned to war. The Valaes Tairn were peerless warriors but the Dhakaani had excellent discipline and greater numbers.
At the height of the Dhakaani-Tairn War, the dragons struck Aerenal with greater force than ever. The elves rushed to the defense of their homeland, and the goblins seized the fortresses left behind. The conflict that followed was long and terrible, made worse when the Dhakaani launched attacks against Aerenal. The elves could not afford to fight two foes. The leaders of the Tairnadal met with the Dhakaani, and a treaty was signed; the elves swore never to return to Khorvaire unless called upon for aid."

These historical accounts conveniently gloss over one ghastly truth. As part of the treaty with the Dhakaani Empire, 200 of the Valaes Tairn were stripped of their rights and sent back to Khorvaire to work as slaves to the goblinoids. The goblins quickly established a forced breeding policy with these slaves, and their numbers jumped to hundreds of thousands. When the invasion of Xoriat laid waste to the Dhakaani, most of the slaves died with them. The few remaining settled in the Talenta Plains, and the shamanistic heritage of the halflings has greatly influenced their culture. They're hardier than normal elves, but not as intelligent. This is a result of the eugenics forced on them by the goblins, which favored endurance over wits.
Kreistor2
03-01-07, 11:08 PM I wouldn't put Wild Elves in Aerenal. I'd suggest the Eldeen Reaches.

BTW, I love subraces. There is nothing in the ECS that says they don't exist in Eberron, except that they are simply not mentioned specifically, like 90% of the PHB, DMG and MM.

If you need a background for them, make them a variant elf bred by the Giants to aid in scouting during the war vs. the Quori. Wood Elves can be a meleer variant, and Grey Elves can be Research Assistants. Aquatic Elves can be for assisting in underwater research or for helping set up bases underwater where the Quori might have a harder time getting to the Giants.
Arcane Guyver
03-01-07, 11:39 PM The only reason I'd use wild elves is to replace drow, making them LA +0 race.

That said, the only elven subraces I'd use in Eberron are drow, half-elves, and maybe even aquatic elves if there was call for them. About the only other one I'd even consider using are snow elves, but that's a long shot.
goblin_pride
03-02-07, 01:05 AM As part of the treaty with the Dhakaani Empire, 200 of the Valaes Tairn were stripped of their rights and sent back to Khorvaire to work as slaves to the goblinoids. The goblins quickly established a forced breeding policy with these slaves, and their numbers jumped to hundreds of thousands.

There's only one problem I can really see with this explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but elves take close to a century to reach physical maturity, right? If that's correct, then breeding elf slaves would seem like a fruitless act to the Dhakaani goblinoids. A goblinoid reaches maturity in about a dozen years*, they can reproduce another generation every year and they don't require the softer treatment that an elf slave would require. Elf slaves would be worthless to breed, sure a captive could be forced to work until their body gave out, but actually wasting time breeding them would be pointless.

*According to the ecologies in the second ed Monsterous Compendium, a goblin reaches adulthood after five (5) years. Sure they only live 50 or so, but that goblin can produce another offspring every year until it's death. Assuming the offspring are also forced to breed one offspring every year and so on with each generation, how many slaves does a breeding program produce in the time it takes to produce one elf slave? A goblin is more likely to know his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather than an elf is.
Kreistor2
03-02-07, 02:54 AM There's only one problem I can really see with this explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but elves take close to a century to reach physical maturity, right? If that's correct, then breeding elf slaves would seem like a fruitless act to the Dhakaani goblinoids. A goblinoid reaches maturity in about a dozen years*, they can reproduce another generation every year and they don't require the softer treatment that an elf slave would require. Elf slaves would be worthless to breed, sure a captive could be forced to work until their body gave out, but actually wasting time breeding them would be pointless.

There was a thread a number of months ago (long deleted) called Valenar vs. Talenta. In it, there was a major discussion concerning the Aereni, Valenar and so forth. One of the subjects that came up was that it is really hard to justify elves remaining in child bodies for 100 years, and the culture of the Valenar especially requires a much higher replacement rate.

Humans fight every summer historically, weather permitting. Generally, you wouldn't expect more than one or two battles. In every battle even the winning side expects 5% losses.

The Valenar are written such that they fight as often as humans. It is given that they are supposed to be better (by level) than most other armies, but it doesn't really matter. They are going to suffer 5% losses, no matter how much better they are. That puts a Valenar's life expectancy at around 20 years. (I know there's a mathematical formula for that and it can be calculated with far more precision, but it's not an important detail... it isn't 100 years). That means the Valenar army needs to replace itself every 20 years. So, either the Valenar have 5x as many children as they do adults, or they take less time than 100 years to mature.

The argument against the 100 years as a child even in standard DnD runs thus: children have a higher death rate than adults, and they suffer more damage from accidents than adults. In order to reach maturity and breed, the adults must raise the birth rate over races that mature faster. This means that an elven woman during her lifetime must give birth to more children than an average human woman. Unfortunately, most fantasy gives elven women a lower children/woman birthrate than humans. So, basically, there's a whole lot of handwaving going on allowing elves to rise to adulthood healthy and hale enough to maintain the race. Oh, and don't forget that -2 Con penalty hurting their chances against disease...

I go with a 10% longer childhood for elves in my Eberron. They still are very long lived, but they don't spend decades in fragile child bodies.
The White Sorcerer
03-02-07, 04:25 AM [Keith] hates subraces as much as I do

Either you meant that as a joke, or you're simply lying. Which is it?

As for me, here's how I'd use wild elves: Permanent elven inhabitants of Thelanis.

Also, concerning elven childhood, Races of the Wild states that elves reach maturity at about 25, and 110 is simply the common age to start adventuring. Keith has, IIRC, given this his blessing.
buddhasmash
03-02-07, 10:51 AM I've always used the 25 year rule. 100 years of childhood would destroy the entire Elven civilization. Evolutionarily, it just doesn't work.
ArcTan
03-02-07, 11:09 AM There's only one problem I can really see with this explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but elves take close to a century to reach physical maturity, right? If that's correct, then breeding elf slaves would seem like a fruitless act to the Dhakaani goblinoids. A goblinoid reaches maturity in about a dozen years*, they can reproduce another generation every year and they don't require the softer treatment that an elf slave would require. Elf slaves would be worthless to breed, sure a captive could be forced to work until their body gave out, but actually wasting time breeding them would be pointless.

Actually, according to Races of the Wild, elves reach physical maturity at about the same rate as humans and are physically adult at the age of 17 or 18; the century-long maturation rate is for social and psychological maturation. A 30-year-old elf will look mature but will have the attention span and emotional maturity of a human child.

Some people like this idea, some people hate it, but it is official WotC canon. Moreover, I like the idea a lot more than the somewhat ludicrous idea that Order of the Stick mocks, of 15-year-old infants in diapers and such.
ArcTan
03-02-07, 11:12 AM I've always used the 25 year rule. 100 years of childhood would destroy the entire Elven civilization. Evolutionarily, it just doesn't work.

Well, elves stay emotionally and socially "children" for about 100 years -- they aren't expected to work for a living, they're still under the care of their elders, and they haven't yet learned most of the things we think of a human having to learn in order to achieve adulthood.

In Valenar culture, this wouldn't take the form of the happy-go-lucky arts and leisure "awakening" period that standard D&D elves have. Instead, "juvenile" elves under 100 are probably cannon fodder, grunt soldiers who are expected to form a "family" with the rest of their unit and be obedient and dependent on their superior in every way. The 100-year maturity limit probably states when a Valenar elf gains his autonomy, is seen as having the right to act independently and make his own decisions and now freely pursue his chosen ancestor spirit's legacy.
Hellcow
03-02-07, 01:15 PM Well, elves stay emotionally and socially "children" for about 100 years -- they aren't expected to work for a living, they're still under the care of their elders, and they haven't yet learned most of the things we think of a human having to learn in order to achieve adulthood.
As TWS suggests, I don't personally agree with this statement. IMO, elves reach intellectualy maturity around age 25. The issue is that both Aereni and Valenar expect their young to undergo far more intensive schooling/work study than humans. The typical Valenar soldier is a 4th level ranger. Why? Because he's spent almost a hundred years in constant martial training and wargames (including battling creatures raised for this purpose or imported to the island - so there is real danger). As outlined in the PGTE, the Aereni seek to master a particular skill set; an Aereni cook spends decades studying the traditions of the past and perfecting his own techniques (and he's certainly working during this time, although as he hasn't mastered the trade, he's essentially an apprentice).

It's not a question of the elf requiring a century to attain the maturity and social skills that WE, as humans, consider to be required for adulthood; the issue is that elven culture has an entirely different definition of what it means to be an adult. in my opinion, an elf raised among humans in Sharn is going to be an "adult" at 25. Obviously, this is a deviation from the SRD RAW (setting aside Races of the Wild) - it's just my opinion.

I'll also point out the mention of this in the Valenar dragonshard -
Another important question is why (a player character) is away from Valenar and his warband. If you start at 1st level, you are less skilled than the typical Valenar ranger. Here are a few options to consider:

In the past, young Tairnadal would spend decades sparring against others of their age. At 1st level you are a novice warrior, but you believe you will gain glory and skill more quickly in the world than in the fortresses of Aerenal and Valenar. Your family may support your choice or you may be rebelling against tradition.
So personally, I'd say a 1st-level Valenar should be younger than the traditional "adult" age - because an "adult" Valenar is typically 4th level.

As to the original question: I may not hate subraces with the fiery passion of Edymnion, but I prefer to avoid them whenever possible. I'd rather focus on cultural differences than ability differences... and I personally believe that cultural differences shouldn't be represented by ability modifiers. Humans span all manner of cultures and environments, but they all have the same abilities; as such, I prefer to avoid saying "because these elves live in the woods, they're as strong as half-orcs." In my opinion, ability modifiers are a fundamental aspect of species. Elves simply are faster than humans, but frailer; half-orcs are stronger than humans and elves, but mentally slower.

With that said: subraces are a part of D&D, and there are many ways to use them in Eberron. I don't use many subraces, but if people want to, I'll point to planar influences, magical manipulation, Khyber, the Mourning, and so on. I don't feel that living in a desert should modify the abilities of an elf... but living in a manifest zone to Shavarath might, because that's very unnatural selection. Personally I DON'T use whisper gnomes, but if I did, I'd say that they are rare beings occasionally born when a gnome child is conceived when Mabar is coterminous, often viewed with superstitious fear by other gnomes.

So: I personally don't use Wild Elves in Eberron. But if you wanted to say that they're elves altered by Shavarath, transformed by giant magic, or simply altered by the mysterious forces at work in Xen'drik... all of these are plausible to me. If you want to make ALL Valenar wild elves, hey, it's your game - it's just not something I would do.
The White Sorcerer
03-02-07, 03:57 PM I'd rather focus on cultural differences than ability differences... and I personally believe that cultural differences shouldn't be represented by ability modifiers.

I very much agree with you. A subrace needs more of a reason for existance than just living in a different place than the original race. Take drow, for example. They're different because the giants made them different. It's not just that they live in a different place than elves or that their culture is different.

About the only strong case of using a subrace in Eberron to represent differing environments is using frost dwarves to represent the Toldun Noldorthak.

So yeah, wild elves could exist in Eberron, and saying that they absolutely shouldn't exist or that they should only exist if they're statistically identical to high elves is ridicilous.
JulesCARV
03-02-07, 04:44 PM I'd say that if subraces exist, they're just different people, not different nationalities. A wild elf might well be a Aerenal elf who lives in works as an adept of the Undying Court. A grey elf might be a Khorvaire elf magewright. Elves might not even know if they're "grey" or "wood," just as they don't know whether they took "weapon focus (longbow)" or "point blank shot" as their first-level feat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
buddhasmash 03-01-07, 05:51 PM	Anyone have any ideas about the role of the Wild Elf subrace in Eberron? Can they be marked? How do they relate to normal elves? Where do they hail from and where are they now? Has Keith said anything about this?
Edymnion 03-01-07, 06:10 PM	Anyone have any ideas about the role of the Wild Elf subrace in Eberron?There aren't any. Or shouldn't be, anyway.Can they be marked?Official ruling is that, if allowed, subraces can only take abberant marks, never a true dragonmark.How do they relate to normal elves?If done properly, they are normal elves. They use normal elf stats, and you just roleplay them as being more wild and barbaric.Where do they hail from and where are they now?Any of the monster nations would work. Elves that basically went native with the other beasties.Has Keith said anything about this?Yeah. He hates subraces as much as I do, and did everything he could to keep them out of Eberron. :D
Cabral 03-01-07, 07:02 PM	I've been debating adding subraces as optional character options for various regions. It's looking iffy. I'm think Sun Elves for Aernal, standard for Khorvaire, Wood or Wild for Valanar doesn't seem quite right. Wild elves, I'd put in Xendrik as a giant fearing or worshipping remnant of elves that missed the boat. Doesn't Xendrik have a population issue by now? :)
yrogerg 03-01-07, 09:21 PM	Yeah. He hates subraces as much as I do I don't think it's actually possible to hate subraces as much as you do ;) That said, it's worth pointing out that Hellcow is somewhat affable and diplomatic about his distaste for elf subraces: he's never (AFAIK) said anything more strongly-worded than "I personally wouldn't use them in my campaigns, but if another DM wishes to include them, they could."
Edymnion 03-01-07, 09:28 PM	I don't think it's actually possible to hate subraces as much as you do ;) That said, it's worth pointing out that Hellcow is somewhat affable and diplomatic about his distaste for elf subraces: he's never (AFAIK) said anything more strongly-worded than "I personally wouldn't use them in my campaigns, but if another DM wishes to include them, they could."Yeah, but he has to be PC about it. WotC wouldn't look kindly on him saying "Yeah, this entire set of books over here sucks, don't use any of that stuff". Think about it, have you ever seen him, or any other person actively employeed by WotC in any way, ever say "No, thats a bad idea, don't use that"? It ALWAYS gets qualified.
buddhasmash 03-01-07, 09:28 PM	This is what I've decided to do, for anyone who's interested in knowing. Here's an excerpt from the Dragonshard concerning the elves of Valenar: "In -10,000 YK, Cassael Vadallia led a troop of warriors to the southern coast of Khorvaire, where the Tairnadal established a presence on the continent. These elves called themselves the Valaes Tairn, "warriors of glory." As the elves spread across the southwest, they came into contact with the goblinoid empire of Dhakaan. Isolated skirmishes soon turned to war. The Valaes Tairn were peerless warriors but the Dhakaani had excellent discipline and greater numbers. At the height of the Dhakaani-Tairn War, the dragons struck Aerenal with greater force than ever. The elves rushed to the defense of their homeland, and the goblins seized the fortresses left behind. The conflict that followed was long and terrible, made worse when the Dhakaani launched attacks against Aerenal. The elves could not afford to fight two foes. The leaders of the Tairnadal met with the Dhakaani, and a treaty was signed; the elves swore never to return to Khorvaire unless called upon for aid." These historical accounts conveniently gloss over one ghastly truth. As part of the treaty with the Dhakaani Empire, 200 of the Valaes Tairn were stripped of their rights and sent back to Khorvaire to work as slaves to the goblinoids. The goblins quickly established a forced breeding policy with these slaves, and their numbers jumped to hundreds of thousands. When the invasion of Xoriat laid waste to the Dhakaani, most of the slaves died with them. The few remaining settled in the Talenta Plains, and the shamanistic heritage of the halflings has greatly influenced their culture. They're hardier than normal elves, but not as intelligent. This is a result of the eugenics forced on them by the goblins, which favored endurance over wits.
Kreistor2 03-01-07, 11:08 PM	I wouldn't put Wild Elves in Aerenal. I'd suggest the Eldeen Reaches. BTW, I love subraces. There is nothing in the ECS that says they don't exist in Eberron, except that they are simply not mentioned specifically, like 90% of the PHB, DMG and MM. If you need a background for them, make them a variant elf bred by the Giants to aid in scouting during the war vs. the Quori. Wood Elves can be a meleer variant, and Grey Elves can be Research Assistants. Aquatic Elves can be for assisting in underwater research or for helping set up bases underwater where the Quori might have a harder time getting to the Giants.
Arcane Guyver 03-01-07, 11:39 PM	The only reason I'd use wild elves is to replace drow, making them LA +0 race. That said, the only elven subraces I'd use in Eberron are drow, half-elves, and maybe even aquatic elves if there was call for them. About the only other one I'd even consider using are snow elves, but that's a long shot.
goblin_pride 03-02-07, 01:05 AM	As part of the treaty with the Dhakaani Empire, 200 of the Valaes Tairn were stripped of their rights and sent back to Khorvaire to work as slaves to the goblinoids. The goblins quickly established a forced breeding policy with these slaves, and their numbers jumped to hundreds of thousands. There's only one problem I can really see with this explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but elves take close to a century to reach physical maturity, right? If that's correct, then breeding elf slaves would seem like a fruitless act to the Dhakaani goblinoids. A goblinoid reaches maturity in about a dozen years, they can reproduce another generation every year and they don't require the softer treatment that an elf slave would require. Elf slaves would be worthless to breed, sure a captive could be forced to work until their body gave out, but actually wasting time breeding them would be pointless. According to the ecologies in the second ed Monsterous Compendium, a goblin reaches adulthood after five (5) years. Sure they only live 50 or so, but that goblin can produce another offspring every year until it's death. Assuming the offspring are also forced to breed one offspring every year and so on with each generation, how many slaves does a breeding program produce in the time it takes to produce one elf slave? A goblin is more likely to know his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather than an elf is.
Kreistor2 03-02-07, 02:54 AM	There's only one problem I can really see with this explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but elves take close to a century to reach physical maturity, right? If that's correct, then breeding elf slaves would seem like a fruitless act to the Dhakaani goblinoids. A goblinoid reaches maturity in about a dozen years*, they can reproduce another generation every year and they don't require the softer treatment that an elf slave would require. Elf slaves would be worthless to breed, sure a captive could be forced to work until their body gave out, but actually wasting time breeding them would be pointless. There was a thread a number of months ago (long deleted) called Valenar vs. Talenta. In it, there was a major discussion concerning the Aereni, Valenar and so forth. One of the subjects that came up was that it is really hard to justify elves remaining in child bodies for 100 years, and the culture of the Valenar especially requires a much higher replacement rate. Humans fight every summer historically, weather permitting. Generally, you wouldn't expect more than one or two battles. In every battle even the winning side expects 5% losses. The Valenar are written such that they fight as often as humans. It is given that they are supposed to be better (by level) than most other armies, but it doesn't really matter. They are going to suffer 5% losses, no matter how much better they are. That puts a Valenar's life expectancy at around 20 years. (I know there's a mathematical formula for that and it can be calculated with far more precision, but it's not an important detail... it isn't 100 years). That means the Valenar army needs to replace itself every 20 years. So, either the Valenar have 5x as many children as they do adults, or they take less time than 100 years to mature. The argument against the 100 years as a child even in standard DnD runs thus: children have a higher death rate than adults, and they suffer more damage from accidents than adults. In order to reach maturity and breed, the adults must raise the birth rate over races that mature faster. This means that an elven woman during her lifetime must give birth to more children than an average human woman. Unfortunately, most fantasy gives elven women a lower children/woman birthrate than humans. So, basically, there's a whole lot of handwaving going on allowing elves to rise to adulthood healthy and hale enough to maintain the race. Oh, and don't forget that -2 Con penalty hurting their chances against disease... I go with a 10% longer childhood for elves in my Eberron. They still are very long lived, but they don't spend decades in fragile child bodies.
The White Sorcerer 03-02-07, 04:25 AM	[Keith] hates subraces as much as I do Either you meant that as a joke, or you're simply lying. Which is it? As for me, here's how I'd use wild elves: Permanent elven inhabitants of Thelanis. Also, concerning elven childhood, Races of the Wild states that elves reach maturity at about 25, and 110 is simply the common age to start adventuring. Keith has, IIRC, given this his blessing.
buddhasmash 03-02-07, 10:51 AM	I've always used the 25 year rule. 100 years of childhood would destroy the entire Elven civilization. Evolutionarily, it just doesn't work.
ArcTan 03-02-07, 11:09 AM	There's only one problem I can really see with this explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but elves take close to a century to reach physical maturity, right? If that's correct, then breeding elf slaves would seem like a fruitless act to the Dhakaani goblinoids. A goblinoid reaches maturity in about a dozen years*, they can reproduce another generation every year and they don't require the softer treatment that an elf slave would require. Elf slaves would be worthless to breed, sure a captive could be forced to work until their body gave out, but actually wasting time breeding them would be pointless. Actually, according to Races of the Wild, elves reach physical maturity at about the same rate as humans and are physically adult at the age of 17 or 18; the century-long maturation rate is for social and psychological maturation. A 30-year-old elf will look mature but will have the attention span and emotional maturity of a human child. Some people like this idea, some people hate it, but it is official WotC canon. Moreover, I like the idea a lot more than the somewhat ludicrous idea that Order of the Stick mocks, of 15-year-old infants in diapers and such.
ArcTan 03-02-07, 11:12 AM	I've always used the 25 year rule. 100 years of childhood would destroy the entire Elven civilization. Evolutionarily, it just doesn't work. Well, elves stay emotionally and socially "children" for about 100 years -- they aren't expected to work for a living, they're still under the care of their elders, and they haven't yet learned most of the things we think of a human having to learn in order to achieve adulthood. In Valenar culture, this wouldn't take the form of the happy-go-lucky arts and leisure "awakening" period that standard D&D elves have. Instead, "juvenile" elves under 100 are probably cannon fodder, grunt soldiers who are expected to form a "family" with the rest of their unit and be obedient and dependent on their superior in every way. The 100-year maturity limit probably states when a Valenar elf gains his autonomy, is seen as having the right to act independently and make his own decisions and now freely pursue his chosen ancestor spirit's legacy.
Hellcow 03-02-07, 01:15 PM	Well, elves stay emotionally and socially "children" for about 100 years -- they aren't expected to work for a living, they're still under the care of their elders, and they haven't yet learned most of the things we think of a human having to learn in order to achieve adulthood. As TWS suggests, I don't personally agree with this statement. IMO, elves reach intellectualy maturity around age 25. The issue is that both Aereni and Valenar expect their young to undergo far more intensive schooling/work study than humans. The typical Valenar soldier is a 4th level ranger. Why? Because he's spent almost a hundred years in constant martial training and wargames (including battling creatures raised for this purpose or imported to the island - so there is real danger). As outlined in the PGTE, the Aereni seek to master a particular skill set; an Aereni cook spends decades studying the traditions of the past and perfecting his own techniques (and he's certainly working during this time, although as he hasn't mastered the trade, he's essentially an apprentice). It's not a question of the elf requiring a century to attain the maturity and social skills that WE, as humans, consider to be required for adulthood; the issue is that elven culture has an entirely different definition of what it means to be an adult. in my opinion, an elf raised among humans in Sharn is going to be an "adult" at 25. Obviously, this is a deviation from the SRD RAW (setting aside Races of the Wild) - it's just my opinion. I'll also point out the mention of this in the Valenar dragonshard - Another important question is why (a player character) is away from Valenar and his warband. If you start at 1st level, you are less skilled than the typical Valenar ranger. Here are a few options to consider: In the past, young Tairnadal would spend decades sparring against others of their age. At 1st level you are a novice warrior, but you believe you will gain glory and skill more quickly in the world than in the fortresses of Aerenal and Valenar. Your family may support your choice or you may be rebelling against tradition. So personally, I'd say a 1st-level Valenar should be younger than the traditional "adult" age - because an "adult" Valenar is typically 4th level. As to the original question: I may not hate subraces with the fiery passion of Edymnion, but I prefer to avoid them whenever possible. I'd rather focus on cultural differences than ability differences... and I personally believe that cultural differences shouldn't be represented by ability modifiers. Humans span all manner of cultures and environments, but they all have the same abilities; as such, I prefer to avoid saying "because these elves live in the woods, they're as strong as half-orcs." In my opinion, ability modifiers are a fundamental aspect of species. Elves simply are faster than humans, but frailer; half-orcs are stronger than humans and elves, but mentally slower. With that said: subraces are a part of D&D, and there are many ways to use them in Eberron. I don't use many subraces, but if people want to, I'll point to planar influences, magical manipulation, Khyber, the Mourning, and so on. I don't feel that living in a desert should modify the abilities of an elf... but living in a manifest zone to Shavarath might, because that's very unnatural selection. Personally I DON'T use whisper gnomes, but if I did, I'd say that they are rare beings occasionally born when a gnome child is conceived when Mabar is coterminous, often viewed with superstitious fear by other gnomes. So: I personally don't use Wild Elves in Eberron. But if you wanted to say that they're elves altered by Shavarath, transformed by giant magic, or simply altered by the mysterious forces at work in Xen'drik... all of these are plausible to me. If you want to make ALL Valenar wild elves, hey, it's your game - it's just not something I would do.
The White Sorcerer 03-02-07, 03:57 PM	I'd rather focus on cultural differences than ability differences... and I personally believe that cultural differences shouldn't be represented by ability modifiers. I very much agree with you. A subrace needs more of a reason for existance than just living in a different place than the original race. Take drow, for example. They're different because the giants made them different. It's not just that they live in a different place than elves or that their culture is different. About the only strong case of using a subrace in Eberron to represent differing environments is using frost dwarves to represent the Toldun Noldorthak. So yeah, wild elves could exist in Eberron, and saying that they absolutely shouldn't exist or that they should only exist if they're statistically identical to high elves is ridicilous.
JulesCARV 03-02-07, 04:44 PM	I'd say that if subraces exist, they're just different people, not different nationalities. A wild elf might well be a Aerenal elf who lives in works as an adept of the Undying Court. A grey elf might be a Khorvaire elf magewright. Elves might not even know if they're "grey" or "wood," just as they don't know whether they took "weapon focus (longbow)" or "point blank shot" as their first-level feat.