Would you want to play against a warforged at a game of Poker? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Would you want to play against a warforged at a game of Poker? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DragonBringerX
05-15-07, 12:19 AM I know I wouldn't. Ok, never actually been on the Ebberon board before so if this has already been discussed, sorry. Now, I'm playing a warforged in one of my friends games (I'm almost lv 8) and I realized one thing over the course of the game...warforged have NO facial expressions! None what-so-ever! they just give you this blank stare. :blink:
Then it got me thinking, man I bet warforged would be great at poker. That when me and my friend thought that maybe warforged should get a bonus to bluff.
So, the next day we discussed it a little bit more and he said that in his game hes giving warforged a +2 to Bluff, and a -2 to Diplomacy (not just for balance but also because they lack facial expressions).

Whaddaya think? :whatsthis
Rerecros
05-15-07, 01:04 AM They would probably have other tells (fidgeting, ect...)
UnderworldLord
05-15-07, 01:20 AM IIRC, they get a penalty to charisma. Keep in mind that, as Rerecros said, thereare other signs.
Ryoden_Anariavas
05-15-07, 09:34 AM Though I hate linking Eberron and Star Trek, Data was good at poker but Riker still won most of the time.

And Data was only good because he could count the cards

If Poker was only about having a blank expresion then anyone could be an ace. However it has more to do with reading your oponent and knowing odds. Two things that have nothing to to with your "poker face"
DragonBringerX
05-15-07, 02:29 PM i do agree with the other telling features...but I am mainly talking about the fact that their face dosnt change...ever. They have the best poker face ever, which is why it was only a +2 bonus just being able to maintain such a straight face. Think about in conversations, your mainly focused on a persons face, unless you've had a little bit of training (which is where sense motive comes in)
Cifer
05-15-07, 03:36 PM About the poker thingy: You can't read a WF's facial language, but he's probably got the same problem.

As for bluffing, I don't think WF have got such a great advantage. Most tales about good liars and con men focus on the fact that they don't merely lack any body language that says they are lying, but rather evoke feelings of honesty and sympathy to overwhelm logical thought, which is precisely one of the things I can't imagine Warforged achieving.
Kinger
05-15-07, 05:48 PM I've always had Warforged eyes change colour and intensity depending on the mood and temperment of the construct in question. A Warforged good at bluffing (ie: high Bluff skill) is able to control this much more than your average 6-Cha point-buy Warforged Fighter.

I'd think bright "Holy crap, a royal flush" blue eyes would be a much bigger tell than, say, a twitch of the mouth.
Nevarre
05-16-07, 06:03 AM I agreed with Cifer and Rerecros

In my experience, facial expressions in Poker are only one of the many things that can identify if someone is bluffing, and having those facial expressions can also be a benefit, since you can double-bluff as well.

For the purposes of the game I would say that the advantages and disadvantages of not having facial expression pretty much level out, and I would avoid giving Warforged additional circumstances bonuses for not having expressions.
Dragom
05-16-07, 04:26 PM And theres the -2 to wis and -2 to charisma they get mostly for being as gullible and easy to fool as new born kittens before their eyes open.
Greyseed
05-17-07, 09:39 PM Well, for feinting in combat different creature types get a -4 penalty on their bluff check because of a body language difference.

So a -4 on sense motives vs the warforged playing sounds right to me.
Dragom
05-17-07, 11:12 PM So that would work into a -4 penalty on sense motive for the warforged as well. Only it's lower wis makes it a -5 and it's lower charisma reduces it's ability to bluff, makes the effective penalty for the human player a -3. The warforged comes out poorly in the exchange.
Nevarre
05-19-07, 08:16 PM Perhaps we should all wait for the inevitable "Complete Gambler"!
:D

(come on....You KNOW it'll happen!)

Or perhaps Warforged characters could use magnetic facial expression accessories to help with charisma-based checks.
"We need to intimidate the guards.." - WF sticks on his 'angry eyes. ;)
AkumaDaimyo
05-19-07, 09:12 PM Perhaps we should all wait for the inevitable "Complete Gambler"!
:D

(come on....You KNOW it'll happen!)

Or perhaps Warforged characters could use magnetic facial expression accessories to help with charisma-based checks.
"We need to intimidate the guards.." - WF sticks on his 'angry eyes. ;)

"PREPARE TO MEET MR ANGRY EYES!" *Mr Potatohead sticks his feet in his eyes instead* lol

So what about a Warforged whose like Bicentenial Man (Robin Williams)? I'm thinking a Warforged with eyebrows and actual moving face would be more of a Reforged? Can you even do that with a Reforged?
Lanodantheon
05-19-07, 09:45 PM The reason I wouldn't want to play poker with a practiced warforged isn't because of tells. Warforged, though artificial are like any other living creatures. They are not devoid of body language, they have their own kinds of body language and therefore, "tells". Body language is a type of reaction to various emotional responses. All warforged have emotional responses, many of them are under developed, but they have them. Combine that with a Warforge's stunted social development and any 'Forged other than a reforged would actually be pretty easy to beat, because the 'forged wouldn't be able to read his or her opponents. My fear of a warforged Card Sharp is for an entirely different reason.

According to Races of Eberron, Warforged like to do a variety of things when they get bored like count blades of grass and other things normally done by some types of OCD. It's part of their construct nature. I would bet that a Warforged with enough brain power is a Shuffle Tracker/Card Counter. Especially Warforged with any kind of Math skills like Wizards, would be scary to play because they keep track of the cards and the probabilities. They would have to learn the rules of the game first, but they could very well be like Adrian Monk when he goes to a Casino.

Of course, this is a very isolated case that's probably very exaggerated for the purposes of gaming. If I met a Warforged at a poker table and he didn't know what he was doing, I'd whip his amalgamated hide and take his gold.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragonBringerX 05-15-07, 12:19 AM	I know I wouldn't. Ok, never actually been on the Ebberon board before so if this has already been discussed, sorry. Now, I'm playing a warforged in one of my friends games (I'm almost lv 8) and I realized one thing over the course of the game...warforged have NO facial expressions! None what-so-ever! they just give you this blank stare. :blink: Then it got me thinking, man I bet warforged would be great at poker. That when me and my friend thought that maybe warforged should get a bonus to bluff. So, the next day we discussed it a little bit more and he said that in his game hes giving warforged a +2 to Bluff, and a -2 to Diplomacy (not just for balance but also because they lack facial expressions). Whaddaya think? :whatsthis
Rerecros 05-15-07, 01:04 AM	They would probably have other tells (fidgeting, ect...)
UnderworldLord 05-15-07, 01:20 AM	IIRC, they get a penalty to charisma. Keep in mind that, as Rerecros said, thereare other signs.
Ryoden_Anariavas 05-15-07, 09:34 AM	Though I hate linking Eberron and Star Trek, Data was good at poker but Riker still won most of the time. And Data was only good because he could count the cards If Poker was only about having a blank expresion then anyone could be an ace. However it has more to do with reading your oponent and knowing odds. Two things that have nothing to to with your "poker face"
DragonBringerX 05-15-07, 02:29 PM	i do agree with the other telling features...but I am mainly talking about the fact that their face dosnt change...ever. They have the best poker face ever, which is why it was only a +2 bonus just being able to maintain such a straight face. Think about in conversations, your mainly focused on a persons face, unless you've had a little bit of training (which is where sense motive comes in)
Cifer 05-15-07, 03:36 PM	About the poker thingy: You can't read a WF's facial language, but he's probably got the same problem. As for bluffing, I don't think WF have got such a great advantage. Most tales about good liars and con men focus on the fact that they don't merely lack any body language that says they are lying, but rather evoke feelings of honesty and sympathy to overwhelm logical thought, which is precisely one of the things I can't imagine Warforged achieving.
Kinger 05-15-07, 05:48 PM	I've always had Warforged eyes change colour and intensity depending on the mood and temperment of the construct in question. A Warforged good at bluffing (ie: high Bluff skill) is able to control this much more than your average 6-Cha point-buy Warforged Fighter. I'd think bright "Holy crap, a royal flush" blue eyes would be a much bigger tell than, say, a twitch of the mouth.
Nevarre 05-16-07, 06:03 AM	I agreed with Cifer and Rerecros In my experience, facial expressions in Poker are only one of the many things that can identify if someone is bluffing, and having those facial expressions can also be a benefit, since you can double-bluff as well. For the purposes of the game I would say that the advantages and disadvantages of not having facial expression pretty much level out, and I would avoid giving Warforged additional circumstances bonuses for not having expressions.
Dragom 05-16-07, 04:26 PM	And theres the -2 to wis and -2 to charisma they get mostly for being as gullible and easy to fool as new born kittens before their eyes open.
Greyseed 05-17-07, 09:39 PM	Well, for feinting in combat different creature types get a -4 penalty on their bluff check because of a body language difference. So a -4 on sense motives vs the warforged playing sounds right to me.
Dragom 05-17-07, 11:12 PM	So that would work into a -4 penalty on sense motive for the warforged as well. Only it's lower wis makes it a -5 and it's lower charisma reduces it's ability to bluff, makes the effective penalty for the human player a -3. The warforged comes out poorly in the exchange.
Nevarre 05-19-07, 08:16 PM	Perhaps we should all wait for the inevitable "Complete Gambler"! :D (come on....You KNOW it'll happen!) Or perhaps Warforged characters could use magnetic facial expression accessories to help with charisma-based checks. "We need to intimidate the guards.." - WF sticks on his 'angry eyes. ;)
AkumaDaimyo 05-19-07, 09:12 PM	Perhaps we should all wait for the inevitable "Complete Gambler"! :D (come on....You KNOW it'll happen!) Or perhaps Warforged characters could use magnetic facial expression accessories to help with charisma-based checks. "We need to intimidate the guards.." - WF sticks on his 'angry eyes. ;) "PREPARE TO MEET MR ANGRY EYES!" Mr Potatohead sticks his feet in his eyes instead lol So what about a Warforged whose like Bicentenial Man (Robin Williams)? I'm thinking a Warforged with eyebrows and actual moving face would be more of a Reforged? Can you even do that with a Reforged?
Lanodantheon 05-19-07, 09:45 PM	The reason I wouldn't want to play poker with a practiced warforged isn't because of tells. Warforged, though artificial are like any other living creatures. They are not devoid of body language, they have their own kinds of body language and therefore, "tells". Body language is a type of reaction to various emotional responses. All warforged have emotional responses, many of them are under developed, but they have them. Combine that with a Warforge's stunted social development and any 'Forged other than a reforged would actually be pretty easy to beat, because the 'forged wouldn't be able to read his or her opponents. My fear of a warforged Card Sharp is for an entirely different reason. According to Races of Eberron, Warforged like to do a variety of things when they get bored like count blades of grass and other things normally done by some types of OCD. It's part of their construct nature. I would bet that a Warforged with enough brain power is a Shuffle Tracker/Card Counter. Especially Warforged with any kind of Math skills like Wizards, would be scary to play because they keep track of the cards and the probabilities. They would have to learn the rules of the game first, but they could very well be like Adrian Monk when he goes to a Casino. Of course, this is a very isolated case that's probably very exaggerated for the purposes of gaming. If I met a Warforged at a poker table and he didn't know what he was doing, I'd whip his amalgamated hide and take his gold.