Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crashbangboom 04-25-07, 08:19 PM	Most of the players in my group weren't impressed with the tome of battle so I decided to correct that oversight by having the drow follow the different disciplines/paths differing by clan/tribe. Any comments, suggestions, questions welcome. Excuse the odd style of posting, my wife and I are still trying to get our five week old daughter to sleep on a schedule........zzzzzzzzzzzzz...........
gaerfindel 04-25-07, 11:05 PM	Good luck with your daughter. My son is seven months old and teething; he never goes to sleep!
Kitaki 04-25-07, 11:48 PM	Sounds like an interesting idea. If you could I'd like to hear you elaborate on just what you intend to do.
Fabius Maximus 04-26-07, 12:58 PM	I don't think it's a good idea. Most drow are rather barbaric, and the elaborate techniques of ToB do not fit that flavour.
gaerfindel 04-26-07, 01:54 PM	To paraphrase Heinlein: Barbarism is a state of cultural development, not a comment on a species' intelligence. Besides, from what I've skimmed of ToB, some of the techniques might fit very well with the fighting styles favoured by Xen'drik's drow. Remember, to fight a giant--let alone two or three or more--involves more than just hit-and-run, you also have to hit'em where it hurts & hit them hard, when you do. IIRC the Setting Sun style uses an opponent's strength against her; a good thing to do against a being ten-times your size.
Fabius Maximus 04-26-07, 03:44 PM	The ToB flavour hints at formal training. Where would the drow get it? I could imagine a tiny monastery commited to these fighting techniques, but not a widespread use. I would resent a greater number of drow wizards on Xen'drik, too.
crashbangboom 04-26-07, 04:12 PM	I was thinking of giving the group leaders levels of Crusader for an interesting non-bard approach. Giving the lower level drow the Martial Study feat and access to only certain schools differing for each tribe. From 2nd-4th level on swap warrior levels for warblade or swordsage, Ranger/SwordSage Rogue/SwordSage Fighter/Warblade The party is composed of many grizzled vets of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 some playing for over 20-25 years. If I can catch them off guard it would just brighten my day soooooooo much. They have come to expect the numerous over-lightly-armored hunting parties," Oh look Drow, Glitterdust, daylight, Evard's Black Tentacles, finish off the stragglers, collect their equipment, move on( Approximately 2-3 rounds)." I'll expand more later, now I need to get some sleep, thanx again.
gaerfindel 04-26-07, 04:43 PM	The ToB flavour hints at formal training. Where would the drow get it? I could imagine a tiny monastery commited to these fighting techniques, but not a widespread use.No reason for such techniques to be taught only in monasteries. Even among the scorpian clans, great warriors of song and legend would always be welcomed, for her knowledge of battle enriches the youth of the tribe, even if only a select few are proven worthy of teaching. Given the scattered nature of scorpian clan settlements, the drow prolly have a variation of the phiarlan tradition* that developed among the Aereni. These wandering emissaries too, could pass on the secret techniques of past glories. Some elves served as liaisons between the many different tribes. These travelers saw their role in war as being more spiritual than physical: Their task was to uphold morale and maintain the alliances between the scattered soldiers. They called themselves phiarlans, or "spirit keepers." These phiarlans learned the traditions and customs of all elven sects, and a phiarlan bard could inspire warriors from any tribe. --House Phiarlan, Part I (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050124a)
Fabius Maximus 04-26-07, 07:52 PM	As long as the tradition is not widespread, I could accept this. Giving every drow warrior levels in one of the ToB classes for the sake of diversity is just wrong too me.
Adamaro23 04-26-07, 11:30 PM	Also drow would'nt need monastaries to teach from, think of the Native Americans, they traveled all over the plains but their techniques were different than other tribes. All that would have to happen is the older fighter/hunter types would teach the young drow as they grew up. The same as Amazons were.
lonewolf 04-27-07, 07:46 AM	I think that the swordsage fits perfectly into Drow society and that the most common Classes among the drow should be Scout, Ranger, Swordsage and Spirit Shaman. They may have a babarian culture, but that doesnt automatically mean that they use the babarian class a lot. I would concentrate Drow swordsages on the Tiger claw and Shadow Hand disciplines with maybe a few maneuvers from Diamond Mind and/or Setting Sun. They should avoid Desert Wind except if they are Sulatar and Stone dragon doesnt fit at all. Note that one of the shadow hands prefered weapons is the spiked chain, and as a DM I would include the Drow spiked chain also. If you read the book Gates of Night, you have to agree that the drow Xu is most likely a swordsage from all the abilities she displayed. Warblade on the other hand doesnt fit that well IMHO, and Crusader is clearly out.
rvielman 04-27-07, 02:36 PM	Warblade on the other hand doesnt fit that well IMHO, and Crusader is clearly out. Why? Aren't Xen'drik drow capable of being glory seekers or devoted to causes? If you find they are too barbaric go Warblade TWF specializing in Tiger Claw. What level would you want to build it? Do you allow flaws? I think that the best way of showcasing ToB is with a Crusader Battlefield control build with a Drow Scorpion Chain. Take a flaw (the one which gives you -2 to ranged attacks) and take Drow Skirmisher and Weapon Finesse level 1. Level 3 take Combat Reflexes, level 6 take stone Stone Power, level 9 Stand Still (Expanded Psionics Handbook), level 12 Robilar's Gambit (PHII), level 15 Defensive Sweep (PHII) and level 18 Martial Stance (Immortal Fortitude). You want to take the following stances: level 1 Martial Spirit, level 8 thicket of blades and level 14 Tactics of the Wolf. I'm playing right now with a similar build, and it is a freaking wall, AoO for everything, and since it is absorbing damage with stone power and healing the rest with its Devoted Spirit Maneuvers, very hard to kill (of course the damage goes first to furious counterstrike. Works well as a solo, but better as a group encounter (to synergize with tactics of the wolf). Add maneuvers to taste. you need only one Stone Dragon for Stone Power and you need defensive rebuke. If you want to impress your players, this build should work.
Fabius Maximus 04-27-07, 03:02 PM	I think that the swordsage fits perfectly into Drow society and that the most common Classes among the drow should be Scout, Ranger, Swordsage and Spirit Shaman. They may have a babarian culture, but that doesnt automatically mean that they use the babarian class a lot. Gaerfindel already quoted Heinlein. I agree with him, but the whole flavour of the ToB classes just screams formalized training. I can imagine the regular classes take one or two maneuvers or stances that are traditional, but that's about it. If you read the book Gates of Night, you have to agree that the drow Xu is most likely a swordsage from all the abilities she displayed. The Infernal Bovine said that he took the Scorpion Wraith Prc from Secrets if Xen'drik for Xu and tinkered with it a bit.
Wizardman 04-28-07, 03:48 AM	The Infernal Bovine said that he took the Scorpion Wraith Prc from Secrets if Xen'drik for Xu and tinkered with it a bit. Didn't he also say that he sees Xu as a Swordsage now that he knows about the class?
Fabius Maximus 04-28-07, 09:43 AM	Didn't he also say that he sees Xu as a Swordsage now that he knows about the class? I don't know. Never read such a thing.
tallric_kruush 04-28-07, 05:54 PM	I played a drow swordsage//druid gestalt a few months ago in an Eberron campaign. The druid side used the UA variant, eschewing Wild Shape and armor proficiency in favor of the monk's AC and speed bonuses. The swordsage used the unarmed monk-like variant, focusing mostly in the Shadow Hand discipline. The overall effect was a stealthy hunter who could really fly through the jungle. She fought only with unarmed strikes, a drow longknife, and a Xen'drik boomerang. The stealth and shadow-oriented SH maneuvers seemed completely appropriate for a Xen'drik drow; all the more so after reading The Gates of Night. If I'd had anything to gain from it (or time to do so), I'd have loved to have dipped into the Scorpion Wraith PrC, but giving up either Druid or Swordsage progression for it would have been worthless. A fleet-footed druid Shadow Hand warrior stalking the jungles accomplishes what the SW PrC tries to represent within the boundaries of a single class. As to the ToB classes requiring formalized teaching, I'd only say so if you're sticking with the fluff provided. I love the book, but I can't say I'll ever use the background histories provided therein. They just don't mesh well (IMO) with any world I'm likely to ever game in. I don't have any problem believing a tradition like Shadow Hand could crop up among drow in the jungles of Xen'drik. It's not difficult at all to imagine a solid backstory for virtually any of the schools or disciplines among any number of peoples or groups. A Dhakaani Warblade likely was/is a specially trained warrior, indoctrinated in a very precise and formal tradition. But the jungle dwelling Swordsage of the drow makes no less sense to me. Each are logical applications of the classes. As was pointed out above, many similar things to what the Scorpion Wraith offers can be accomplished using Swordsage. Either would be a suitable representation of the elite, stealthy warrior of this drow culture to me.
Satori 05-17-07, 12:20 AM	Personally, the Drow need LESS attention as is. They're already secluded to their own continent, full of xenophobia, extremely militant and unfriendly...yet 3 out of 4 Eberron players I've met insisted on playing one. Giving this secluded, non-PC friendly race sole rights to arguably the BEST melee class addition is a bad idea. Instead, give it to something that truly deserves a boost in perspective and respect. Give it to the Hobgoblins in Darguun. Think about it. It makes perfect sense, as Hobgoblins are mentioned frequently within the ToB, and the Hobgoblin tribes are militant, disciplined, and intelligent enough to create such specialized schools of fighting. Xendrik drow are perfectly fine with their Scorpion Chains, Long Knives, and Vulkoor fetishes.
crashbangboom 05-17-07, 01:08 AM	If YOU can't stand the drow DON'T USE THEM. My group doesn't include any fanboys of the race. The post was to garner opinion on what the idea of giving the X'endrik drow the classes/training from the tome of battle to change/shake it up a little. (DID YOU EVEN READ THE OTHER POSTINGS IN THIS THREAD?). My party of players can wipe out a hunting party or more in a few rounds, even with countermeasures in place to disrupt their usual tactics(Daylight, Evard's Black Tentacles, Glitterdust, finish off the stragglers.)The group I'm in doesn't think much of the tome of battle so that is my possible solution to also spicing things up and keeping it interesting. Any Questions?:waits: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :looloo: :hoppingma :headexplo :headexplo :censored:
Yadot 05-17-07, 01:41 AM	I don't know. Never read such a thing. He said it in one of the threads about the novel's character levels. I'll try to find it.
Fabius Maximus 05-17-07, 08:13 AM	No need. I saw it a few days ago.
Satori 05-17-07, 10:40 AM	Crash- Calm down, drink some cocoa, and take a chill pill. Things will be ok. If you read my post, you'd realize that I did offer an opinion regarding the Xendrik Drow and the ToB. I offered the opinion that it is a bad idea, and that ToB classes should be used with the Hobgoblins of Darguun instead. However, if you are putting your players through a Drow infested area...try this. Make all Drow half-fiends, but don't adjust the CR. Add interesting things like wings, breath weapons, and other demonic accoutrements, then see how your party deals with it. If anything, it will shed the Drow in a creepy new light. If anything, MAYBE have the BBEG Drow take levels in Swordsage and focus heavily on Shadowhand techniques. Have him hit and run the party, causing ability drain and what not to frustrate your group to no end. I think this would make a very memorable BBEG. Giving the entire Drow race ToB classes would be a bad idea, though, in my opinion.
lonewolf 05-17-07, 11:53 AM	I dont think that giving all ToB classes only to one race/culture is a good idea. I believe Warblades fit very good to the Dhakaani empire and Swordsages fit very good to the drow of Xendrik. But that doesnt mean that there cannot be a Human Warblade coming out of the Academy of Rekkenmark or a dwarven Crusader of The Silver Flame. But also I think it is a completely different Topic if there should be PC-drow with ToB classes. In most campaigns I wouldnt allow drow PCs at all. But if there is a campaign where a drow could fit in, I dont see a reason why this drow shouldnt be a swordsage....
tallric_kruush 05-18-07, 05:50 PM	I dont think that giving all ToB classes only to one race/culture is a good idea. I never got the impression that the OP was wanting to give ToB exclusively to the drow. I thought he was just looking for a way to introduce ToB in combination with the drow. I'd definitely agree exclusivity would be a bad thing.
Rechan 05-18-07, 07:32 PM	Warblades are apparently products of asceticism along with Swordsages. I do not think that removing the Monestary from the Monk means a lack of monk. After all, for centuries ascetics have walked into the desert to live on their own; it could happen in Xen'drik in a multitude of places. Naturally these hermits would draw others to them, and so on. I intend to drop Swordsage and possibly Warblade into Riedra, pawning it off as psionics. Because a BBEG Inspired doing such things just radiates Cool in my brain. However, I could see attaching the Warblade to shifter ascetics. Dragon 354 had "Way of the Shackled Beast"; a martial arts for Shifters. All of the Warblade disciplines could fit with Shifter monks.
crashbangboom 05-19-07, 09:20 AM	I'm not intending to give it just to the drow. It's just the difference in style that would freshen up the campaign I'm planning to run after my group saves or blows up Cauldron, and I take a break in DMing. The drow from my perspective are the more dynamic group in X'endrik, I see them holding on to the martial traditions generation after generation, whereas the giants have lost most of their own. The Quori don't even know what happened to their ancestors. The yuan-ti either protect ancient knowledge or kill anything or anyone who strays too close, or both.
tallric_kruush 05-19-07, 12:24 PM	I, for one, am in agreement with you Crash. As I posted above, I played a drow swordsage//druid (with a seven or eight page backstory), and she was very in step with the flavor of the setting. I think the Shadow Hand discipline, in particular, is very appropriate for the drow of Xen'drik. I think the debate here on this (and other) threads comes from the assumption that the jungle society of the drow is too "undeveloped" (I hate the term "barbaric") to produce Martial Adepts. I disagree completely with that assumption. One of the sourcebooks said that the drow view themselves as the rightful heirs of the giant legacy. I think that could be true of some tribes, and less so of others. I'm sure some tribes are very primative, and hold no traditions as evolved as the Martial Disciplines. The drow in GotEC come to mind as a good example of this. Just look as the Sulatar, though. They are as different from the drow in GotEC as a can be. Xen'drik is a huge place--much larger than Khorvaire. The scattered families and tribes would likely have hundreds of varied belief systems and traditions, all having common and disparate threads. The fact that they can produce a Scorpion Wraith (SoX PrC) says to me that they could just as easily produce a Swordsage or Warblade. Crusader could work also, if the backstory is right. To me, that's the key. A well-conceived backstory allows something to fit. It blends the material into the setting seamlessly. My backstory for Qlor'assha Chaqa'an did just that (if I may presume to say so :P ). You're a DM introducing new material, not a player desperately trying to make a square character concept fit into a round whole. You'll do just fine.
AkumaDaimyo 05-21-07, 06:16 AM	We had to deal with a Xen Drik drow ninja and he was a sneaky sort and I think very in tune with how Xen Drik drow are. They are incredibly sneaky and the turning invisible and fighting unarmored makes sense to me. Drow scouts could also make a lot of sense as well. Have them use the skirmish to keep the PCs at bay while still getting the extra damage. You don't necessarily need ToB but use it if you want. I just wouldnt make it exclusive to the drow. Truthfully I'd say certain styles would be exclusive to some races vs others. Just look at which styles fit which races. Like the style that is mostly about stealth and allows you to add dex to melee damage sounds incredibly drow. I'll add I have NO problem with drow. I like drow in FR and Eberron. They are very interesting race in both settings. I do hate drow fanboys who want to play drow regardless of if they fit into the game or not. Likewise I hate people with a irrational hatred of drow. Drow can be fun and interesting PCs if played right. Sadly most are not. However if someone shows they are a good and responsible roleplayer you should get over your kneejerk reactions and grow up. If a drow would fit the game I wanted to do then I'd allow it. If not then I wouldn't. I don't just blanketly say no to most things. It depends on the campaign I'd want to do and if they fit in at the time. Lastly if you think the Xen Drik drow are too barbaric for things like monks your dead wrong. Read the Dreaming Dark series by Keith Baker, you know the guy who created Eberron? In the last book 'Xu' the female drow is obviously a monk with how often she fights unarmed and how good she is at it. Keith Baker has spoken. :-p
tallric_kruush 05-21-07, 08:40 AM	Lastly if you think the Xen Drik drow are too barbaric for things like monks your dead wrong. Read the Dreaming Dark series by Keith Baker, you know the guy who created Eberron? In the last book 'Xu' the female drow is obviously a monk with how often she fights unarmed and how good she is at it. Keith Baker has spoken. :-p As stated in earlier posts above, he also said that he'd envision her with Swordsage levels now that ToB has been released. So Keith Baker, at least, can see the same possibilties.;)
Warforged Goblin 05-21-07, 11:19 AM	Crash, first and foremost, congrats on the young'en. I hope you've ordered your plush dice set so you can get her started early :D Let me start by saying I HATE drow because of Forgotten Realms fanboys (which my DM was). The only thing I liked about them was watching them die, horribly. However, I thoroughly enjoy the spin drow have in Eberron, which more than redeems them in my opinion. Anyway, for the ToB drow, you need to pick which tribe you want to use. If you're gonna use the Sulatar I suggest the swordsage with heavy emphasis on the Desert Wind discipline and maybe some Diamond Mind (I mean, if they can bind elementals, why shouldn't they be a little quicker?). If you're going the Umbragen route, once again swordsage but instead go for Shadow Hand and possibly Tiger Claw depending on how you want them to end up. If you're going for the worsippers of Vulkoor, try crusader with the Devoted Spirit and/or Stone Dragon disciplines. I'm pretty sure there's at least one other tribe, but they escape me now. And for those of you that don't like Tome of Battle, why exactly are you posting anything here? Crash is looking for a way to incorporate a book he likes into his game, not whether or not it fits. He's the DM, he says it fits. God, I hope this doesn't turn into another "ToB too anime"-style thread...
Fabius Maximus 05-21-07, 01:28 PM	And for those of you that don't like Tome of Battle, why exactly are you posting anything here? Crash is looking for a way to incorporate a book he likes into his game, not whether or not it fits. He's the DM, he says it fits. God, I hope this doesn't turn into another "ToB too anime"-style thread... I you are referring to me: I posted here because I think the training needed in learning the disciplines doesn't fit the barbaric drow. I can see the Sulatar using some of the schools, though. If the thread is derailed, it's only because you brought the other thread here, I guess. No offense intended, tough.
gensuke626 05-23-07, 11:34 PM	Just a thought...How many of you are married to Rules as Written? I'm not intending this as a jab at anyone, but I'm justing thinking...If a given style of combat is graceful, why would it be so hard to believe that an elf of any flavor would not practice it. Granted, I have not read Tome of Battle (I skimmed it and said "This looks like Magic...for Fighters...I'll buy it later...") I can't see how there is no school in the book that can't be considered an Artform. The Kalashtar have their Path of Shadows, real world Japan has Katas, various worlds have Sword-dancers and the like... Just wanting to drop the idea of the fighting style as an artform.
crashbangboom 05-24-07, 09:03 AM	Thanx WF Goblin:tiphat: :cookie:
Warforged Goblin 05-24-07, 07:32 PM	No problem sir, hope it works for ya.
tallric_kruush 05-25-07, 07:43 PM	Just a thought...How many of you are married to Rules as Written? I don't think it's always Rules as Written in this case. It seems, rather, to be Fluff as Written. Nothing in the rules within ToB restricts the material to specific races or groups. The fluff provides an entire backstory to the origins of the disciplines, their being "codified" as it were, and their being learned within schools or orders. This seems to have really driven into the minds of some that these fighting styles can't possibly be learned outside of some monastery, dojo, or the like. This isn't a jab at those that feel this way. I also don't presume to say that this fluff is their only reason for feeling the way that they do. It does, however, seem likely that it plays a part. Personally, I really don't like the fluff provided. I can't think of a single Campaign World I've ever played in where it would have fit well. Just wanting to drop the idea of the fighting style as an artform. Are you sure you don't have ToB?? That's just the sort of idea a Swordsage might promote.;)
gensuke626 05-25-07, 07:57 PM	Actually Tallric, I didn't have Tome of battle. I found it yesterday at a used book store and decided to pick it up. Interesting read, and already I've got NPCs for the next time I run. (Drow Swordsage, Shadow Hand Spiked Chain user...Thinking that he will be the champion for a small drow family near Stormreach, and one of the few from his family that is willing to go into town to trade for supplies.) I actually started to think about how I would portray Elven Swordsages and the like...and something deep in my mind wants to set up a group of traveling lorekeepers, something like the Harlequin Eldar from Warhammer 40k.
tallric_kruush 05-25-07, 08:11 PM	Actually Tallric, I didn't have Tome of battle. I found it yesterday at a used book store and decided to pick it up. Interesting read, and already I've got NPCs for the next time I run. (Drow Swordsage, Shadow Hand Spiked Chain user...Thinking that he will be the champion for a small drow family near Stormreach, and one of the few from his family that is willing to go into town to trade for supplies.) I actually started to think about how I would portray Elven Swordsages and the like...and something deep in my mind wants to set up a group of traveling lorekeepers, something like the Harlequin Eldar from Warhammer 40k. I'm glad to hear you picked it up. It's one of my favorites. Your drow NPC is just another demonstration of how perfectly a Shadow Hand Swordsage fits the drow of Xen'drik. Weapon Focus (spiked chain) at level one?! How perfect is that for a scorpion chain wielding drow?!! To me, the Valenar are a perfect culture to produce both Warblades and Swordsages. They're a people that live to fight. I've written-up more that one Valenar Martial Adept, though I've yet to play one.
gensuke626 05-25-07, 11:40 PM	I'm glad to hear you picked it up. It's one of my favorites. Your drow NPC is just another demonstration of how perfectly a Shadow Hand Swordsage fits the drow of Xen'drik. Weapon Focus (spiked chain) at level one?! How perfect is that for a scorpion chain wielding drow?!! It's the one that was screaming loudest at me. I picture Drow hiding in the trees with their Scorpion Chains and picking off adventurers one by one. Lots of being dragged up into the canopy by the neck... To me, the Valenar are a perfect culture to produce both Warblades and Swordsages. They're a people that live to fight. I've written-up more that one Valenar Martial Adept, though I've yet to play one. I need to look into that a bit more, though it's a very good thought. Hehe, you sound like me with Eberron characters, though for me it's more like "I've written up a Chaotic Good Cleric of Vol who absolutely believes that the Undead are helpful creatures and truely believes the things that the higher-ups say to keep the commoners in line. When can I play him?"
Xankal 08-18-07, 04:17 PM	I'm doing this from memory so if I get anythng wrong correct me. If you want to play a Drow with ToB skills to show your other players what's available, try this. I'm going to make it 12th level just to highlight what you can do. Swordsage 5/Ranger 2/Scorpion Wraith 5 BAB 10 FORT 6/REF 11/WILL 5 (check that, I'm not positive on the SW saves) 3d6 SA damage and let's not forget the SR of 22. You are going to want a high Wisdom and Dex as both get added to AC and Wisdom helps with your SW feats. Progression SS 1 Improved Initiative SS 2 SS 3 Blind Fight Ran 1 Wild Empathy (necessary for SW) Ran 2 TWF SW 1 Darkstalker SW 2 SS 4 (for Assassin's stance xtra 2d6 SA damage) SW 3 Adaptive Style SW 4 SW 5 SS 5 Craven (another 12 pts to SA damage) The thing to this build is dishing out the SA damage on a regular basis. There are plenty of manuevers that leave your foe flat footed so take those. Here, though, is a key tactic. Using your darkness abilities to mold darkness you can create a grid in a 40' room or area, you can then move to strike from hiding from pretty much any square adjacent to your enemy. Since you only have to make a 5' move to another square and hide again you get to make 3 full attacks doing 5d6+12 SA damage each time:eek: . You should also end up with a very high Initiative for more SA attacky goodness. To put some icing on the cake, don't forget to get some Bracers of the Hunter for an extra +5 to Hide, +2 Initiative, 1d6 SA damage.:D You rule the Darkness.:bow: