Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moosh Nailo 03-01-07, 03:33 PM	If you take a given body armor feat, do your slams count as that type of material? The obvious example is adamantine body. I'm hoping that your slam would be affected, not just your AC, when you take said body feat. Thanks. (and sorry, I do realize this has probably been asked before) Edit: I have added a second question a little later on in the thread.
Elderich 03-01-07, 04:10 PM	does anything say your slams would be effected?
Edymnion 03-01-07, 04:55 PM	does anything say your slams would be effected?Correct, nowhere in the feat does it say your natural attacks can bypass DR now, so they can't. Which is just another way that the body feats are inferior to the actual armor. Adm Full Plate would come with a pair of adm gauntlets.
Cifer 03-01-07, 05:57 PM	Well, RAW they don't, because it isn't mentioned they do. However, there seems to be nothing that distinguishes adamantine that covers a WF from adamantine that's forged to an armor (except when it's taken apart), so I personally would say it's not stretching credibility to grant the slam. However, this of course completely depends on your DM. Which is just another way that the body feats are inferior to the actual armor. Adm Full Plate would come with a pair of adm gauntlets. Just for nitpicking: Nowhere does it say that adamantizing an armor makes its gauntlets capable of bypassing DR, does it?
Edymnion 03-01-07, 06:18 PM	Just for nitpicking: Nowhere does it say that adamantizing an armor makes its gauntlets capable of bypassing DR, does it?Most heavy armors specifically say that they include things like helmets, greaves, and guantlets. Full Plate is one of them. The guantlets are part of the armor, just like the helmet, and would be made of the same material as the rest of the suit. The argument could be made that the gauntlets would be steel, but an equally valid argument could be made that they are listed as being part of the armor, and that all metal portions of the armor are made of the same material.
Cifer 03-01-07, 07:09 PM	So it basically comes down to arguing, which only can mean it's up to the individual DM - although I'll be happy to bludgeon the next golem to death with my mighty 1D3+1/2 strength not-even-masterwork adamantine gauntlet...
Edymnion 03-01-07, 07:58 PM	Even if you don't get to have adm gauntlets with the armor, just say you aren't punching the target when you make your unarmed attack. Kick 'em in the shins instead, because nobody is going to say that the boots aren't adm.
Belabras 03-01-07, 09:53 PM	If the Body feats gave material damage types to 'forged attacks, there would be no need for Tracery feats. Added to the "not mentioned so doesn't happen" arguement, it is pretty clear that Adamantine Body is not meant to provide attacks that bypass DR. If you or your DM want to ignore that for your game, that's your call.
Cifer 03-02-07, 08:40 AM	If the Body feats gave material damage types to 'forged attacks, there would be no need for Tracery feats. Er... did you ever find a silver or cold iron body feat or an adamantine tracery? Me neither. So that argument doesn't really stick.
Kid SixXx 03-02-07, 10:24 AM	Er... did you ever find a silver or cold iron body feat or an adamantine tracery? Me neither. So that argument doesn't really stick. Eh, from my vantage, tracery feats were pretty much written to address whether or not Body Feats allow WF to bypass DR (answer = no), so there's no reason to include silver or cold iron body feats... .. although you could... I don't see why any Eberrony materiel (flametouched iron, byeskh) couldn't eventually serve as materiel for a Body feat. I was always under the assumption (perhaps incorrect) that the reason that AB doesn't allow a WF to bypass DR / Admantine is because that the WF's plating isn't made of solid adamantine: it only has enough adamantine in the composite plating allow to provide the DR.
Belabras 03-02-07, 11:31 AM	Er... did you ever find a silver or cold iron body feat or an adamantine tracery? Me neither. So that argument doesn't really stick. It's easy to make such feats and they've been proposed before to easy acceptance. The arguement wasn't that there is an exclusion, just that a mechanic for adding typed damage to a warforged's slam or unarmed attack already exists, indicating that the Body feats aren't meant to do so. Regardless, the Body feats still don't provide the damage type according to all published material. The question here is whether they should, and from all the feats and other material we've seen, it's pretty clear they were never intended to do so.
Cifer 03-02-07, 01:36 PM	It's easy to make such feats and they've been proposed before to easy acceptance. The arguement wasn't that there is an exclusion, just that a mechanic for adding typed damage to a warforged's slam or unarmed attack already exists, indicating that the Body feats aren't meant to do so. Regardless, the Body feats still don't provide the damage type according to all published material. The question here is whether they should, and from all the feats and other material we've seen, it's pretty clear they were never intended to do so. Ok. Now show me how I can make a WF punch through Adamantine DR without using houserules. That should be possible, shouldn't it? And what is the reason for not listing the adamantine tracery when it's one of the three common material-DRs? Sorry, but what you are doing is Oberoni - you say something is not the case because it would be easy to houserule something else in.
Belabras 03-02-07, 01:51 PM	Ok. Now show me how I can make a WF punch through Adamantine DR without using houserules. That should be possible, shouldn't it? And what is the reason for not listing the adamantine tracery when it's one of the three common material-DRs? Sorry, but what you are doing is Oberoni - you say something is not the case because it would be easy to houserule something else in. Some levels in Warforged Juggernaut will get the job done. However, there's a fundemental fallacy here - the assumption that there should be a mechanic for a warforged to bypass Adamantine DR. The simple truth is that there isn't one, outside of Juggernaut levels. The point of contention is whether, if one is house ruling, an existing lvl 1 feat should provide the ability or if a PC should have to trade in a higher level feat slot or find some other way to achieve it. I don't think there is a need to houserule at all in this case, but if you are going to, it seems foolish to me to heap extra abilities onto a lvl 1 feat that is already quite powerful.
Phantomcrossing 03-02-07, 02:49 PM	Okay, time to pimp slap everybody. Say a creature has DR 2/magic, this means the creatures natural weapons can overcome other damage reduction as though they were magic weapons. (This does not work, for example, with DR2/- . Heh, my gaming group always refers to the - as DR/Tough sh**) The Adamantine Body Feat grants the 'Forged a super special awesome +8 natural armor and DR 2/Adamantine...Huh, DR 2/Adamantine. Hmmm....whatever would this mean for the warforged natural attack or attacks as the case may be. I really don't know (puts hands on hips) I hope we solve this mystery. Now, I may have just been completely insulting to everyone and otherwise a jerk with my oh so hilarious (at least in my opinion) quoting of MC Chris's Kingdom Hearts 2 Rant, and I may be rambling and now off topic, but you know what? I'm g-d d**m right about this. Also, Cifer...like with other special materials, a gauntlet made of Adamantine has to automatically be masterwork quality for the purpose of cost.
Belabras 03-02-07, 04:41 PM	Okay, time to pimp slap everybody. Say a creature has DR 2/magic, this means the creatures natural weapons can overcome other damage reduction as though they were magic weapons. (This does not work, for example, with DR2/- . Heh, my gaming group always refers to the - as DR/Tough sh**) The Adamantine Body Feat grants the 'Forged a super special awesome +8 natural armor and DR 2/Adamantine...Huh, DR 2/Adamantine. Hmmm....whatever would this mean for the warforged natural attack or attacks as the case may be. I really don't know (puts hands on hips) I hope we solve this mystery. Now, I may have just been completely insulting to everyone and otherwise a jerk with my oh so hilarious (at least in my opinion) quoting of MC Chris's Kingdom Hearts 2 Rant, and I may be rambling and now off topic, but you know what? I'm g-d d**m right about this. Also, Cifer...like with other special materials, a gauntlet made of Adamantine has to automatically be masterwork quality for the purpose of cost. Can't say I've ever heard that line of reasoning before. Care to site a source? Your assertion is definitely not supported by the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)
The White Sorcerer 03-02-07, 05:01 PM	Say a creature has DR 2/magic, this means the creatures natural weapons can overcome other damage reduction as though they were magic weapons. Precisely. However, that only works with DR/magic and DR/epic.
AvonRekaes 03-02-07, 05:05 PM	Phantomcrossing, much to my own amusement, is incorrect. He's confusing an old 3.0 DR rule that worked for all DR. That being, if a creature had DR/+3, his natural weapons bypass damage reduction as if they were +3 weapons. In 3.5, the only time a creature's natural weapons are treated as anything besides normal attacks for the purposes of bypassing DR are when it's explicitly said so under the Combat heading in their monster manual entry. All those Golems with DR/adamantine? They certainly do NOT have adamantine-bypassing attacks. Not that real-world logic always works as in-game logic, but look at the Clay Golem. Are you going to tell me clay fists bypass DR/adamantine? Well if you are I'd call you a liar, because the creature's monster manual entry doesn't say anything of the sort. His arguement is also clearly incorrect when dealing with outsiders. Take a look at the Solar. DR/epic and evil. So the Solar's slam attack functions as an epic evil weapon right? ...wait, what? No, it functions as an epic GOOD weapon. Just because a creature has DR of a certain type does NOT mean it bypasses DR of the same type with its natural weapons. It's a confusion of an obsolete 3.0 rule slapped on the 3.5 DR system. Incorrect.
Moosh Nailo 03-02-07, 05:22 PM	Thanks to everyone who has posted. The consensus indicates that taking a 'forged body feat does not change, in any way, that warforged's slam attacks. This is backed by logical rule interpretation. Fair enough. Now, with that being said and done, on to then next phase of this idea. Does anyone think it would be too powerful to include said change into the rules of the feats? This would be a houserule, of course, but I'm asking for opinions. I realize this pretty much only benefits adamantine body (have you ever seen DR #/mithril ?). But there it is.
Belabras 03-02-07, 06:13 PM	I'd say make it a seperate feat, but you can attach a secondary effect to the feat (much like the Tracery feats do). Something like: Adamantine Tracery: min lvl 6, warforged only All your natural weapon attacks are considered Adamantine for the purposes of bypassing DR. You also gain a +1 bonus to all Fort saves.
Elderich 03-02-07, 06:14 PM	Now, with that being said and done, on to then next phase of this idea. Does anyone think it would be too powerful to include said change into the rules of the feats? This would be a houserule, of course, but I'm asking for opinions. I realize this pretty much only benefits adamantine body (have you ever seen DR #/mithril ?). But there it is. I think it is important to understand how it will effect your game. As Edymnion has repeatedly mentioned, the body feats are above average at very low levels, and quickly become less than average. Adding the feat to slam attacks at higher levels would offset this disadvantage. Crazy idea here. What if at a certain character level the character got this advantage? note that mitheral is useless for a slam attack.
Cifer 03-02-07, 07:16 PM	Also, Cifer...like with other special materials, a gauntlet made of Adamantine has to automatically be masterwork quality for the purpose of cost. Well, I extrapolated from shields here: A shield, even if it is masterwork, does not count as masterwork for attacks made with it. Thus, I reasoned that a gauntlet which belonged to a suit of armor and was not made seperately would suffer from the same rule. Oh, and there's the funny effect that you should be able to reduce the costs of heavy adamantine armor by 3000 gp by buying it without gauntlets... Crazy idea here. What if at a certain character level the character got this advantage? Except for other WF, what is the lowest level enemy with DR/adamantine? Are there any beside golems?
RogueElement 03-02-07, 07:44 PM	Back up a sec, you guys lost me. I thought a Slam attack was any unarmed whomp attack like a fist punch, backhand, elbow slam, forearm slam, kick, knee slam, body slam, etc. If that's correct, how can Adamantine Body NOT give you an adamantine Slam attack? You'd have to try pretty hard to hit someone with a part of your body that isn't protected by your adamantine armor. Is a Slam attack always with just the bare palm of the hand? Also, I always assumed that Adamanine Body was like a suit of armor fused to your body. If a Slam attack isn't a open palm pimp slap, then Adamantine Body would have to be more like internal buttressing and reinforcement rather than adamantine armor plating. In which case all the Eberron art will have to be re-commissioned...
Belabras 03-02-07, 08:36 PM	Back up a sec, you guys lost me. I thought a Slam attack was any unarmed whomp attack like a fist punch, backhand, elbow slam, forearm slam, kick, knee slam, body slam, etc. If that's correct, how can Adamantine Body NOT give you an adamantine Slam attack? You'd have to try pretty hard to hit someone with a part of your body that isn't protected by your adamantine armor. Is a Slam attack always with just the bare palm of the hand? Also, I always assumed that Adamanine Body was like a suit of armor fused to your body. If a Slam attack isn't a open palm pimp slap, then Adamantine Body would have to be more like internal buttressing and reinforcement rather than adamantine armor plating. In which case all the Eberron art will have to be re-commissioned... The central reason would be because the rules say it doesn't. However, for a flavor reason, Kidd Sixx stated it pretty well: I was always under the assumption (perhaps incorrect) that the reason that AB doesn't allow a WF to bypass DR / Admantine is because that the WF's plating isn't made of solid adamantine: it only has enough adamantine in the composite plating allow to provide the DR. Which Hellcow/KB has said about the feat as well.
RogueElement 03-02-07, 10:59 PM	Ah, the keyword is composite plating. That makes sense to me. Well, at least enough sense to justify the metagame reasons. ;)
AvonRekaes 03-03-07, 04:18 AM	The adamantine body warforged, according to Keith's Dragonshard article, also implies a completely different structure and build. It's not merely grafting on adamantine full-plate. Also, note that real adamantine full-plate that your human fighter wears grants DR 3/--, not DR 2/adamantine. This means that if you use an adamantine greatsword on a adamantine-full-plate-wearing human, he still gets his Damage Reduction, but the adamantine-body-warforged does not. From a flavor perspective, it seems pretty clear that the warforged with the body feat clearly possesses impure or alloyed adamantine. It's not the real deal. Either that or the adamantine is spread throughout the warforged's body and doesn't cover as much as real adamantine full-plate.
Cifer 03-03-07, 10:16 AM	Also, note that real adamantine full-plate that your human fighter wears grants DR 3/--, not DR 2/adamantine. You might want to re-read your DMG about that one.
Elderich 03-03-07, 02:55 PM	You might want to re-read your DMG about that one.I do not understand CiferAdamantine: <snip> Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/– if it’s light armor, 2/– if it’s medium armor, and 3/– if it’s heavy armor.
Cifer 03-04-07, 05:04 PM	Huh. That's funny... Ah, I probably mixed that up with the capability of an adamantine weapon to sunder anything up to the hardness of adamantine.
AvonRekaes 03-05-07, 08:12 AM	Up to, but not including. Adamantine only bypasses hardness of 19 or less (the exact line is "less than 20"), while it has a hardness of 20 itself.
Moosh Nailo 03-06-07, 09:30 PM	I like Belabras' idea: Adamantine Tracery: Prereq min lev 6, warforged only. Slam is treated as adamantine for bypassing DR, and +1 to fort saves. Way I read it, it only counts for going through DR, right? Anyone else figure that it should simply BE an adamantine attack, rather than just for bypassing DR? So it could affect items and such? (Belabras, sorry if I misinterpreted your idea)
Belabras 03-06-07, 11:06 PM	That was the intent, though you could change it if you like. Adamantine's ability to bypass hardness can be very powerful though.
Kid SixXx 03-07-07, 06:26 AM	That was the intent, though you could change it if you like. Adamantine's ability to bypass hardness can be very powerful though. I think I'd probably stick to just the DR, less Adamantine Tracery give an ability other traceries don't just as this thread tried to give AB an ability it normally wouldn't provide Allowing Adamatine Tracery to proved a WF with DR bypass and a Sundering Slam may be a bit much. I suppose I'll have to playtest this. Wheee, like I need an excuse to go roll dice.
Moosh Nailo 03-10-07, 03:50 PM	Maybe remove the +1 to fort saves, and have adamantine's ability to ignore hardness replace that as the special ability? Or has this still got too much oomph?
tos_shai_hulud 04-05-07, 10:24 PM	Adamantine Tracery: min lvl 6, warforged only All your natural weapon attacks are considered Adamantine for the purposes of bypassing DR. You also gain a +1 bonus to all Fort saves. I was thinking about trying a different sort of idea: Improved Adamantine Body (Embedded Warforged Component) Your adamantine body has been reinforced with additional adamantine. It now grants the same protection as an actual suit of adamantine fullplate. Slam attacks are now treated as adamantine for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction, and may ignore hardness less than 20. Cost: ??? Anyone have an idea what sort of a cost this type of improvement should require?
Belabras 04-06-07, 12:11 AM	No cost, make it a 6th lvl feat. A feat slot, especially as you go up in levels, is very very valuable.
tos_shai_hulud 04-06-07, 01:11 AM	I understand your idea. I am thinking that there is no reason that it could not be an item that could be purchased. That is why I was asking what sort of a cost would it be if it were an item. A non-warforged could purchase adamantine full plate armor for 16,500gp, so I am thinking a similar cost, but I am not sure how exactly to price it.
Edymnion 04-06-07, 07:58 AM	Thats the point though, WF are not supposed to be able to just buy new armor, or buy physical upgrades to their armor. Any improvements need to be done through feats. And Improved Damage Reduction, the WF feat, already brings you up to the same DR as normal adm full plate (although bypassing is still an issue), and doesn't grant you adamantine slams. Increasing your defense and offense at the same time is not within the power of a single feat, unless its got some nasty prereqs.
Kid SixXx 04-06-07, 08:26 AM	Any improvements need to be done through feats. Or by paying lots and lots gold to have their composite plating magically enchanted.
tos_shai_hulud 04-06-07, 11:29 AM	I agree with you that WF take adamantine body to replace their armor, but that does not mean that they cannot weld more metal on their body. Armor spikes can be added. I see no reason that reinforced armor could not also be welded on as an upgrade. Nothing in the rules indicates that worforged cannot have upgrades to their armor, only that if they purchase a stock set of armor, they cannot wear it because their composite plating already counts as armor. If a warforged had the Unarmored Body feat, he woul be able to wear any amount of armor he likes, anyway. If he is doing something that normally requires a feat to do, that just means that it should be more expensive. If he wants a physical upgrade that would ordinarily cost two feats, he should be able to purchase it, it would just cost more. Am I misunderstanding the intent of items? I mean, for a +1 magic bonus, you can duplicate the effect of a feat for one weapon (Keen weapon vs. Improved Critical). It seems logical that just about anything can be accomplished with items. Since Adamantine armor provides damage reduction 3/--, but a WF cannot wear armor, that should increase the cost of having something added to their bodies, but I don't see why the rules would make it impossible. Am I misunderstanding how items should work? Should I be limiting these things in my campaigns?
Kid SixXx 04-06-07, 11:35 AM	I agree with you that WF take adamantine body to replace their armor, but that does not mean that they cannot weld more metal on their body. Armor spikes can be added. Eh? Neither the WF Juggernaut PrC nor the Spiked Body feat mentions that the additions to the WF are welded on. For all we know the spikes sorta sprout up on their own. Not difficult to believe since WF are still magical contructs. No one really questions why an Iron Golem has a breath weapon (but doesn't breathe) so the concept of spontaneous spikes for a WF is perfectly fine.
tos_shai_hulud 04-06-07, 11:39 AM	Understandable, but I still fail to see why you would prevent someone from adding embedded components. Isn't that what they are there for?
Belabras 04-06-07, 12:02 PM	Embedded components are additional magic items, as long as you adapting existing items for that mechanic you should be fine. What you should really think about before you do it is make magic items that take the place of or improve warforged feats. That 'forged have to rely on feats for those abilities is one of their main balancing factors.
Edymnion 04-06-07, 12:24 PM	I agree with you that WF take adamantine body to replace their armor, but that does not mean that they cannot weld more metal on their body. Armor spikes can be added. I see no reason that reinforced armor could not also be welded on as an upgradeOkay, but I would still require him to take Exotic Armor Proficiency for that If a warforged had the Unarmored Body feat, he woul be able to wear any amount of armor he likes, anyway. Yeah, he spent a feat to get rid of a racial ability, so he could spend large amounts of gold on a suit of armor to replace that ability. He spends what, a feat a tens of thousands of gold to get the same thing he would have had with just taking the body feat in the first place? If he is doing something that normally requires a feat to do, that just means that it should be more expensive. If he wants a physical upgrade that would ordinarily cost two feats, he should be able to purchase it, it would just cost more.See, this I would not allow. I don't care how much money you throw at it, you won't be able to buy something that gives you Great Cleave in my game. Feats with no prereqs, sure, that I would allow in item form. Anything more than that, and you're gonna have to take the feat in order to get the benefit. Why? A normal character gets 7 feats throughout their 20 level career, making them very rare, very valuable. They get essentially more gold than they know what to do with. Feats are worth more than any amount of gold, IMO.
tos_shai_hulud 04-06-07, 12:36 PM	A normal character gets 7 feats throughout their 20 level career, making them very rare, very valuable. They get essentially more gold than they know what to do with. Feats are worth more than any amount of gold, IMO. I do understand that. I thought that it was possible to generate just about any effect with enough gold. That the benefit of a feat is that it is permanent. His "weldings" would be subject to sunder, rust monster attacks, etc. If the rust monster did enough damage to his armor welding, it goes away, and he needs to pay for it again. Same thing with rusting grasp. I thought that was the limiting factor of items... they can be destroyed. Feats, on the other hand, can never be taken away (except through loss of level). My party is 10th level, and now is the first time it has come up. The party has not had enough wealth until now to even consider something along the lines of improving his adamantine body through items.
tos_shai_hulud 04-06-07, 02:11 PM	Anyway, I would like to try allowing it as available for purchase. I would just like some help figuring out an appropriate cost. If it backfires on me, I will know not to allow it again.
Belabras 04-06-07, 03:11 PM	I totally agree with Edymnion on this. Good luck with your plan though.
Edymnion 04-06-07, 07:44 PM	His "weldings" would be subject to sunder, rust monster attacks, etc. If the rust monster did enough damage to his armor welding, it goes away, and he needs to pay for it again. Same thing with rusting grasp. I thought that was the limiting factor of items... they can be destroyed. Feats, on the other hand, can never be taken away (except through loss of level).You can't sunder armor, and a WF going up against a rust monster is likely going to get himself killed from the rusting damage before his armor gets fully eaten. The problem here is that there is almost nothing in the rules that actually let you damage the armor someone is wearing, and the only things that do allow you to damage the armor will also damage the warforged inside it. Its welded on, so you can't capture the WF and strip it's armor, and since the WF don't sleep or get tired, there are no penalties for it to stay in armor 24/7. Basically, the WF has no real downsides to this. Its getting all the benefits of having it as a feat, like not being able to take it away (without risking killing him in the process), and none of the drawbacks of having it as an item (you can't take it away from him, he never has to take it off, etc). If you want to do it as an item, then it has to be something that suffers from the same limitations as items.
tos_shai_hulud 04-06-07, 08:05 PM	If you want to do it as an item, then it has to be something that suffers from the same limitations as items. That makes sense. I think I will still work on it with the player. Perhaps I can work in vulnerabilities that would suffice. Maybe the enhancements increase the armor check penalty and reduce base land speed, as well as limiting the Max Dex limit even further.
Edymnion 04-06-07, 10:27 PM	That makes sense. I think I will still work on it with the player. Perhaps I can work in vulnerabilities that would suffice. Maybe the enhancements increase the armor check penalty and reduce base land speed, as well as limiting the Max Dex limit even further.Again, I would make it require an Exotic Armor Proficiency. Even as an item, I would make him burn a feat on it.
tos_shai_hulud 04-06-07, 11:37 PM	That is a good idea. I like that. Thank you. With that in mind, do you have any suggestion for pricing? Should it be the same cost as a regular set of Dwarven Full Plate?
Edymnion 04-07-07, 02:22 PM	That is a good idea. I like that. Thank you. With that in mind, do you have any suggestion for pricing? Should it be the same cost as a regular set of Dwarven Full Plate?That depends on what exactly you want it to do. Do you just want something that makes Adamantine Body as good as a real suit of adamantine full plate? Or do you want something that lets you turn normal base composite plating into full plate?
tos_shai_hulud 04-07-07, 03:09 PM	I suppose it would be the latter choice. If his gauntlets were made out of adamantine, that would give him an adamantine slam attack, right?
Edymnion 04-07-07, 09:18 PM	I suppose it would be the latter choice. If his gauntlets were made out of adamantine, that would give him an adamantine slam attack, right?Well, nothing says a WF can't wear guantlets just like everybody else. But it wouldn't affect his slam, since nowhere does it actually say the slam uses the hands (in fact, I rule that the slam is a backhand with those massive stone plates on their forearms). It could also be a shoulder slam, or any number of other things. Although, there is precidence for it being the hands, as the Battlefist specifically ups slams, and I don't see any reason why you couldn't have an adamantine battlefist.
crashbangboom 04-10-07, 04:35 AM	you need to take the tracery feats the Adamantine body feat states (i think, but if not it was explained somewhere) that your slam attack or u/a strikes are not treated as adamantine for purposes of d/r. if you want to do that speak with your dm.
Dselby86 04-17-07, 06:44 PM	I'm too lazy to read it all but your slams (Natural Attack) would be counted because you have Dr of that type, its in the MM somewhere
Belabras 04-17-07, 08:46 PM	I'm too lazy to read it all but your slams (Natural Attack) would be counted because you have Dr of that type, its in the MM somewhere Wrong. That rule is from a previous edition. Unless it is specifically stated, Natural Weapons don't bypass any kind of DR.
Forgivance 04-18-07, 01:42 PM	Should read your core books... MM (Monster manual) pg. 307: bla, bla, bla, "Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction." bla bla bla, the same is true if they have DR epic...their natural attacks are treated as epic. Creatures with alignment SUBTYPE are also treating their natural weapons as their subtype (a solar has DR epic and evil - with subtype of good - so it's natural attacks are treated as Epic and Good (not evil)... However, if a creature has DR to anything else, it's natural attacks are not treated as this type (a werewolf isn't considered to have silver claws)...HOWEVER, a substance made out of a material does overcome a damage reduction....a cold iron spike scares dryads, a silver bolt aggitates lycanthropes, a adamantine fist from a warforged is still adamantine and still is treated as such (except it magically deteriorates if the 'forged dies, or it is removed from the 'forged....) Hope it helps...
Kid SixXx 04-19-07, 07:45 AM	a adamantine fist from a warforged is still adamantine and still is treated as such (except it magically deteriorates if the 'forged dies, or it is removed from the 'forged....) A WF Adamantine Body isn't pure adamantine though. If it were, it'd provide DR3/- like a normal suit of adamantine armor, not just DR2 / Adamantine. This is one of those almost but not quite situations that is a DM's call or generates a prayer for eratta.
Forgivance 04-19-07, 09:50 AM	Though I agree Kid SixXx that it's the DM's call, I would also like to point out. Eberron Core book, pg. 51, Adamantine Body "..a warforged character's body can be crafted with a layer of adamantine..." Same is said in Races of Eberron. Someone in Fullplate armor has more protection than a 'forged because more of them are covered with thicker armor. While the adamantine 'forged will never be caught off guard or drown, his is only a thin layer. But just like a silver plated steel dagger vs. lycanthropes, it's still effective... Of course, what does this mean? He can hit some titan of war for a whole 1d4+str(x0.5) if he wants? Most the time, if he/she is going to kill an opponent that requires adamantine, he'll prolly just shell out for a greater weapon... Anyhow, as you said, it's still the DM's call :)
Kid SixXx 04-19-07, 09:55 AM	While the adamantine 'forged will never be caught off guard or drown, his is only a thin layer. But just like a silver plated steel dagger vs. lycanthropes, it's still effective... Aie, now there is a logical path I can agree with. I retract my original nitpick.
Belabras 04-19-07, 12:00 PM	Saddly, in D&D, using logic to justify an added benefit that is clearly not given by the source text can get you into a LOT of trouble. That said, there's 2 pages of back and forth on this already. I think the issues has been sufficiently debated.
The White Sorcerer 04-20-07, 11:23 AM	Anyhow, as you said, it's still the DM's call :) Sure, the DM can always choose not to follow the rules as written.