Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wymarc 03-19-07, 09:04 PM	According to the Explorer's Handbook, airships have a watch of 20 and a compliment of 150 people. Two questions: 1) Is this an error? I was under the impression that an average airship couldn't hold this many people. 2) What do 20 crew do on an airship? It seems to me that at most you would need 3 people at a time crewing - the helmsman, a lookout, and a navagator. Any ideas or thoughts?
Lancer2010 03-19-07, 09:12 PM	It might depend on the size of the ship. A smaller, personal airship is more along the lines you're thinking. A larger airship in the service of Lyrandar or a government would be much larger, maybe meant for war or long distance. So if it's big enough, there could be several people on the deck, keeping an eye out for attacks, creatures, or rouge elementals. Also, you'd probably have someone on every shift who could repair any damage.
Dragom 03-19-07, 10:32 PM	And Maintenance. Don't be going and forgeting the essential and tedious task of continuously keeping the the wear and tear of being lifted up by an elemental, blown this way and that by miscellanious weather patterns, reckless u turns to whistle at farmers daughters and the force conflicts inherent to flight from ripping a ship, made of nothing more then wood and held together with pegs and nails, into so much kindling. Kind of like the regular maintenance that is done on modern aircraft. Only due to the relatively low travel speeds this can and must be done during flight. Plus theres allways the fun job of scrubbing off the seagull crap off the deck. They'll see the free meal of the refuse produced by an airship's crew and passengers. You bet they will.
Cifer 03-19-07, 10:47 PM	2) What do 20 crew do on an airship? It seems to me that at most you would need 3 people at a time crewing - the helmsman, a lookout, and a navagator. Let's see... You've already mentioned three. A captain is always practical. Then you want a cook. Proper maintenance isn't doing itself and neither is juryrigging, so you'd better have an artificer. Having a back-up helmsman is a great idea, lest you lose the most important person on the ship and have to deal with an angry elemental. Now you'd like some kind of servant for the captain and the other "officer" people. Finding positions for twelve more people shouldn't be that hard, especially since there are always the less-wanted jobs you don't wish to trouble the highly-paid guys with - janitorial work is not done by captains.
InfinityStar8 03-20-07, 12:08 AM	To save on the handy work I know of one novel that used a bound Dryad to the ship. Not much you have to do then.
skakid80 03-20-07, 08:39 AM	Actually The driad wasn't really bound so much as her tree was livewood and had been fashioned into the figurehead. Still it's a rather good idea, and one of my favorite parts of that book.
Ehtiar 03-20-07, 08:59 AM	Part of it is that in the larger ships, such as the standard Lyrandar cargo/passenger one.. You have the ship's maneuverability is guided by the assorted sails / fins on the ship. So you have crew working the rigging at the behest of the helmsman... You have a couple of magewrights / artificers to help out with repairs beyond standard carpentry. There should be a bosun to basically act between the Captain and the crew. (think tough sergeant style) There might be a first officer serving under the Captain as a backup. As well as a backup Helmsman or two. A general Quartermaster who deals with the cargo and organising work crews relating to that... If the ship has regular passengers.. there would probably be a Purser to interact between the Captain and the passengers.. not to mention any "crew" that are purely geared towards the "passenger comfort" duties - laundry/maid service if the passenger service is luxury.. Someone on a lookout position at every shift... and given an airship..would you need one to scan the skies and one to scan the ground? A "cabin boy" position to run general scut work for the officers. And then there's deciding how many shifts a standard airship runs on...so crew changeover... Besides, the Captain / Owner might decide they want a "pet librarian" on board as well...
mightyix 03-20-07, 02:38 PM	You're going to need at least 1 captain responsible for running the ship. You're going to need at least 3 helmsmen to pilot the ship if it's going to run 24 hours a day. Each shift of crew to stand lookout, operate 'rigging', repair ropes and cargo netting is 20 people for a total of 60 for a fully crewed ship. You've then got at least one cook, one cabin boy, one purser (for passengers), at a first mate to act as captain backup, probably a cargo master or two, some carpenters, a doctor, 3 officers of the watch for when the captain and the first mate are doing whatever they do below decks... I'm not sure that I can come up with 150 without the need to support luxury passengers, but I can get close to 100 without a problem. And given the MASSIVE size on an airship, sleeping 150 is easy. Just on the main deck (60% of a 300'x90' ship) each of those 150 would have 160 square feet of space. The ships have got 4-5 decks (50' high), and only 20 tons of cargo space for all that mass, which means plenty of crew space below decks.
Wymarc 03-20-07, 02:54 PM	Good ideas, I was just under the impression that the crew numbers were excluding anyone other than actual sailors or command (i.e. no cook, no purser, etc.). And the example "average" airship does little to support the numbers.with it's 28 crewmembers
Ehtiar 03-20-07, 03:04 PM	It seems to me there's a general mix-up with Airships. The example "average" airship that's given a crew in Explorer's Handbook has a small crew, and isn't really that large... And then we get the statted "airship" that takes up 300 foot of space... which is fairly on the large size... Even the "Golden Dragon" which is described as "outclassing any other airship to date" is only 200 feet long, and just over 60 foot across at her thickest (not including elemental ring). Even though it seem's to be one of those key Eberron archetypal images... there really isn't much out there to judge exactly what an "average" airship is.... Even the two novels that have airships rather central in the storylines show airships that are outside the normal style/engineering.
Dragom 03-20-07, 04:23 PM	Mind, without standardized production, or even a single mass builder using the same blue prints over and over again, it is kind of hard to find an average airship.
Ehtiar 03-20-07, 08:39 PM	Well, there's no real problem with finding an "average" caravel or galleon is there? ;) And in many ways the same style of people would be building both sea going ships and airships...
Cifer 03-21-07, 12:09 AM	@Dragom Funny thing is, there is standardized production: Zilargo binds the elementals and Cannith builds the ships. And as the guilds show, Cannith likes standardization.
Dragom 03-21-07, 02:31 AM	Points taken... Maybe Wizard's is just procrastinating on deciding or failing to collaberate ideas?
Ehtiar 03-21-07, 11:21 AM	It just seem's they have the very groovy imagery of an Airship.. with 1 (occasionally more) elemental ring around it.. Which has formed an iconic image and just hits a part of the Eberron style. But even with the section on elemental vessels in Explorer's handbook, there's nothing "official" as such for different design styles of Airship. Airship is just a wonderfully generic term, just like saying "ship" when referring to any type of water going vessel. Apart from the fan base who have come up with a few variants (quite often going incredibly silly..fun, but silly ones :D ) that can be found on various threads and the like. After all, what official examples are there? There's the brief paragraph on House Lyrandar Airships in Eberron Core p124.. Explorer's Handbook (p29-33)- Has a page on general airship info, the "stormwrack" style stats for what we assume is a "generic" airship. And a sample Airship (The Beginner's Luck) which get's described as an "fairly typical of an average-sized elemental airship" - measures out about 280 ft long. Has a crew of roughly 25-30 (including captain & helmsman). Whisper's of the Vampire's Blade - Included a map of the "Cloud's Destiny" airship. - Which gets described as a routine passenger ship with small cargo space that performs a standard voyage from Trolanport -> Starilaskur -> Korth -> Flamekeep ->Korth. Both the map and the artist's illustration make it look quite smaller then the "average" airship described in the Explorer's Handbook. Then of course, there's "Voyage of the Golden Dragon" - the whole thing being about an airship designed as part of a "mammoth project labored on for three years," to be "the flagship for a new fleet of airships unlike anything Khorvaire had seen before", most of that time I'm assuming was the tricky elemental binding related matters. Of course, given that it's described with "outclasses any other airship to date in more then just size"... it's both mapped and described as being "near 200 feet long and over 60 feet across at her thickest". :confused: Which makes her smaller then the "average" airship The Beginner's Luck..... - Well those are the official ones I could find in a quick run through... (not including descriptions of Airships in the novels which opens up a whole buncha other things). Seem's to me there really isn't as much.. coherency in the Airships as talked about as there should be.. Which means it turns into a very "house rule" thing on what's a big / small / passenger / cargo / explorer / warfare type of airship...
Ryoden_Anariavas 03-22-07, 09:13 AM	I would think that since Airships are only made on a one by one commision style basis there is alot of variety out there. Each person who orders a ship wants it to look unique Also since house lyrander has to have a big hand in all airships they probably have a say in what they look like. personaly Lyrander always struck me as a more chaotic than lawful organization so it isnt that far of a jump to say that they never standardized the building process
Bodger 03-24-07, 01:16 PM	Check out the dragon I do not have it here right now but there is a Tin Golem you can create at fifth that can become your crew since they can be given ranks in Profession (Sailor). 6 ranks. After a few good dungeons you have a loyal but command leadership heavy crew.
Ehtiar 03-26-07, 08:42 AM	Airships are going to be built just like a normal sea vessel.. Standard basic designs, Personal unique bits fleshed out around it depending on who's ordered it up. Just like ordering your basic Ford GTI and deciding which extras you want :D Even if your playing Lyrandar with a more chaotic edge, you have to go with a key thing.. They're an economic powerhouse. Ships (sea and air) are a key part of that. Sure they experiment with designs to figure out what works best for different situations. But it's more feasible and sensible to design a basic form that can then be altered/customised as you go along. As in, look at Stormwrack and the standardised ship designs.. and the section on customising your ship to your own needs/tastes. After all, having the rear end of the ship carved to resemble a Kracken is just pure fluff effect that can look interesting. Ala, go faster stripes on the side :cool:
JustX 03-28-07, 02:07 PM	I think that there are a few more asects to consider. Even if you only need a pilot to move the elemental. the mini wings on the ship are not just there for decoration and have to be moved and maintained. Then you have to deal with people loading and unloading of the cargo. Counting the repair crew and other techs needed to maintain just the ship, twenty people aren't that much at all for the needs of typical operations.
Wymarc 03-29-07, 03:51 PM	I think that there are a few more asects to consider. Even if you only need a pilot to move the elemental. the mini wings on the ship are not just there for decoration and have to be moved and maintained. mini wings? Then you have to deal with people loading and unloading of the cargo. Counting the repair crew and other techs needed to maintain just the ship, twenty people aren't that much at all for the needs of typical operations. but I don't think they would have to be on duty while the ship is in flight. the total number of crew members is 150
JustX 03-29-07, 04:53 PM	mini wings? If you notice on almost every airship picture, there are these miniture sails on the ship. I don't recall with book, but one of them states that these sails are used in the steering of the airship. If this is the case, then these sails need to be adjusted and maintained.
JustX 03-29-07, 04:56 PM	total number of crew members is 150 I think you should reread that. If I'm not mistaken, the 150 represents the passenger load and the 20 or so represent the actual crew.
Wymarc 03-29-07, 07:22 PM	From the Explorer's Handbook pg. 28, Compliment is the total number of crew members aboard at a givin time. watch is how many crewmembers are on duty at one time Also according to the Explorer's handbook, an airship can move in all three dimensions with or without the wind. Your right in that any sails added would need crew to tend to them, but the average airship does not have them. In fact, the only one I can remember that has them is the one near the beginning of the Explorer's handbook. with a compliment of 150 and a watch of 20, you could theoretically have as many as 7 watches. That's less than 3.5 hours per shift. (not including 10 of the crew)
JustX 03-29-07, 08:36 PM	From the Explorer's Handbook pg. 28, Compliment is the total number of crew members aboard at a givin time. watch is how many crewmembers are on duty at one time Also according to the Explorer's handbook, an airship can move in all three dimensions with or without the wind. Your right in that any sails added would need crew to tend to them, but the average airship does not have them. In fact, the only one I can remember that has them is the one near the beginning of the Explorer's handbook. with a compliment of 150 and a watch of 20, you could theoretically have as many as 7 watches. That's less than 3.5 hours per shift. (not including 10 of the crew) According to Stormwrecked, the Compliment is the number of crew, passengers, and soldier that can be carried for extended voyages. Where as the Watch is the number of people it takes to generally handle the ship and course changes. Since the watch is the number of people it takes to handle the ship without any penalities, it's probally safe to assume that you can divide that number into shifts since those people are all you need to run the ship effectivly.
goblin_pride 03-30-07, 02:44 PM	Where as the Watch is the number of people it takes to generally handle the ship and course changes. Don't forget that most every sailing ship since man first took to the sea carries additional sailors so that the unfortunate or accidental death of one or more wouldn't affect the routine running of the ship. Just because the crew is listed as 20 doesn't mean that it can't still make a safe port with four or five working double watch shifts. Redundancy would be taken into account when crewing a ship, with preference given to those capable of multiple roles in the routine running of the ship. A watch shift would include several additional members whose sole duty would be things like making sure the rope lockers were properly laid out so that when needed everything would be in it's proper place and ship's carpenters checking for weakening of the ship's hull. You could skeletonize the crew by half or even more without losing the ability to slip safely into harbor, but in doing so the routine maintenance would suffer and the crew would be exhausted at the end of the voyage.
Wymarc 03-30-07, 03:04 PM	According to Stormwrecked, the Compliment is the number of crew, passengers, and soldier that can be carried for extended voyages. Where as the Watch is the number of people it takes to generally handle the ship and course changes. Since the watch is the number of people it takes to handle the ship without any penalities, it's probally safe to assume that you can divide that number into shifts since those people are all you need to run the ship effectivly. ok, looks like it's just another error made by WotC. Thanks for clearing that up.
Cifer 03-30-07, 06:55 PM	@Goblin The number presented at "Watch" rather seems to be the minimum the ship can be sailed with comfortably - for multiple watches and redundant crewmembers, you need some more. Going below the "watch" number already incurs penalties.
Hideous Phidias 03-31-07, 02:54 AM	Crew of an average size airship captain (windwright captain) helmsman x4 navigator watch x8 deck hands x12 artifice or other arcane caster arcane support (lesser casters) x3 cooks x3 wait staff x2 guards x8-24 healer
JustX 03-31-07, 06:21 AM	From the rules as written, I'm under the impression that the Watch is the number of people it takes to run the ship without penalities to full effect. For me, this implies that different shifts are taken into account because people need to sleep and if they were on shift 24/7 then it wouldn't be operating without penalities. I would guess that with a 20 person watch, that would be divided into three shifts of about 7/7/6 with six being the third watch and not needed as many crew. But this is just one interpertation. it might be more or less per shift depending on the activities, I just don't see it needing 20 people for each shift to run a ship that the pilot can do the work that many sailors would be needed for.
Cifer 03-31-07, 10:03 AM	From the rules as written, I'm under the impression that the Watch is the number of people it takes to run the ship without penalities to full effect. For me, this implies that different shifts are taken into account The word "watch" itself has a different meaning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_%28shift%29). I'd interpret "without penalties" such that when the full watch is present and not exhausted, you can engage in naval combat without inherent dice penalties due to e.g. lacking men in the riggings. Plus, on a ship it's quite common to have two watches (starboard and port) or, if just one watch is present, to not sail during the night.
goblin_pride 04-01-07, 07:49 PM	@Goblin The number presented at "Watch" rather seems to be the minimum the ship can be sailed with comfortably - for multiple watches and redundant crewmembers, you need some more. Going below the "watch" number already incurs penalties. Sailed or combat-ready? Sailing a ship doesn't require much more than three or so, but the ship would be in no shape to take on combat and any routine maintenance would be out of the question. The manpower intense portions would be slipping her moorings at the start of a voyage, combat, at-sea repair and docking a berth at the end of the voyage, any of these tasks would require alot more bodies to get the job done, but simply sailing doesn't require much more than a couple hands to work the windlasses to trim the sails and a helmsman. A full compliment is the number to be able to fulfill every shipboard task on all watch shifts, you can sail with considerably less, but the risks to the ship become greater the fewer able bodies you have aboard. Guns unmanned mean that combat roles are out. A single ship's carpenter means routine repairs are streamlined to just the seriously threatening ones. A lack of qualified helmsmen means that the captain and/or navigator will have to stand a watch at the helm. Nothing stops a ship's cook from working the rigging with the other hands. Stewards are only important if you have passengers, and even then the ship making it's port of call is more important than a passenger's comfort. When talking about sailing with less than optimal crew, you have to define the conditions to determine the minimum number of hands present.
Roxlimn 04-02-07, 01:04 AM	"Watch" and "Complement" are technical game terms that have real meaning in the game. We need to use those meanings, because these are game mechanics, not real-world terms.
JustX 04-02-07, 07:16 PM	"Watch" and "Complement" are technical game terms that have real meaning in the game. We need to use those meanings, because these are game mechanics, not real-world terms. I totally agree with this. By the definition of watch in SW, it's all the people you need to sail the ship with no penalities on long voyages. So, I take that to mean that this is all of the people you need to run the ship without penalities on long voyages. I also take it to mean that this number also covers separate shifts. If it's a 20 person watch, then that's all it takes, not the same 20 people 24/7 because it would automatically cause penalities if they tried to crew a ship all day everyday. From Stormwrack Watch: The number of crewmembers necessary to make course changes, adjust for wind changes, and generally handle the ship. Usually a watch consists of a helmsman, a lookout or two, and a small number of deckhands who can go aloft to change the set of the sails as necessary. On an oar-powered vessel, the watch includes the number of rowers necessary for the ship to make full use of its full oared speed. Compliment The number of crewmembers, passengers, and soldiers who can be carried by the vessel for extended voyaging. For a short voyage (a day or less) a ship might be able to cram two or three times this number of people aboard. Althought the rules in the Explorer's Handbook say that it is compatable with the info in Stormwrack this is clearly not the case when you read the EH version of Watch and compliment. Personally I don't see how it would take about sixty crew to be aboard a airship to run it without working the crew to death or exaustion. Then if you read EH further, it doesn't even list a Crew or compliment for the lightning rail. Then you get to the Stormship that only needs a Watch of 8 and that ship actually has sails! I would think that this might be a typo. If the Stormship needs only 8 people to run it because the elemental provides the wind and there is little need for adjustments, maybe the Airship needs 2 instead of 20. One to control the elemental and another to serve as the lookout. Was there any Eratta put out for EH?
Cifer 04-05-07, 06:46 PM	Usually a watch consists of a helmsman, a lookout or two, and a small number of deckhands who can go aloft to change the set of the sails as necessary. The numbers presented here, especially the singular used for the helmsman, seem to indicate it's indeed a single watch, meaning the number of people that have to be working at a specific time where you want the ship to be ready for combat-worthy maneuverability. If you don't have a second watch, well, noone's forcing you to sail at night. Then if you read EH further, it doesn't even list a Crew or compliment for the lightning rail. Then you get to the Stormship that only needs a Watch of 8 and that ship actually has sails! I would think that this might be a typo. If the Stormship needs only 8 people to run it because the elemental provides the wind and there is little need for adjustments, maybe the Airship needs 2 instead of 20. One to control the elemental and another to serve as the lookout. Do you know how an Airship works? Do you know how many men are necessary to handle the thaumic fluctuation of the elemental ring's altitude adjuster? Have you any ideas on how to compensate for the phase trajectory of the wedge flip with only two men so the spellsurge doesn't go ballistic? Me neither, but if the whole mechanics of the airship was only "one man to point somewhere, another man to command the elemental to move just there", I don't really see why it took Cannith and Zilargo so long to develop. Cooking up some techno-magic babble is much easier.
Ryoden_Anariavas 04-10-07, 10:37 AM	Do you know how an Airship works? Do you know how many men are necessary to handle the thaumic fluctuation of the elemental ring's altitude adjuster? Have you any ideas on how to compensate for the phase trajectory of the wedge flip with only two men so the spellsurge doesn't go ballistic? Me neither, but if the whole mechanics of the airship was only "one man to point somewhere, another man to command the elemental to move just there", I don't really see why it took Cannith and Zilargo so long to develop. Cooking up some techno-magic babble is much easier. I agree wholeheartedly. The numbers are just arbitrary figures that are placed there so that it makes it more difficult to steal a airship with just 4 adventurers. It also makes those lv 1 followers you get when you take leadership usefull. The flavor you put behind the number is totaly up to you. Oh and kudos for the "techno-magic babble" :ayyyy!:
goblin_pride 04-10-07, 11:06 AM	Do you know how many men are necessary to handle the thaumic fluctuation of the elemental ring's altitude adjuster? Have you any ideas on how to compensate for the phase trajectory of the wedge flip with only two men so the spellsurge doesn't go ballistic? 42. Throw the gnome over the rail and just keep steering until you manage to land the blasted thing.
Wymarc 04-10-07, 03:26 PM	Do you know how an Airship works? Do you know how many men are necessary to handle the thaumic fluctuation of the elemental ring's altitude adjuster? Have you any ideas on how to compensate for the phase trajectory of the wedge flip with only two men so the spellsurge doesn't go ballistic? Me neither, but if the whole mechanics of the airship was only "one man to point somewhere, another man to command the elemental to move just there", I don't really see why it took Cannith and Zilargo so long to develop. Cooking up some techno-magic babble is much easier.[/QUOTE] It took time for them to develop the process of binding it in such a way that it could provide lift, and that soarwood had to be used, and that the particular dragonmarks had the ability to control the bound elementals.