Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Watsyurname529 11-29-07, 05:58 PM	Okay, this thread is for my system of firearms for Eberron assisted/inspired by skrap-san, Jello Ninja, and Rekko. Original thread here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958080) Let me say one thing first, if you are here just to tell me that guns/firearms don't belong in Eberron, go away. I know the debate over this and I don't want this thread to turn into that and just because you are reading this doesn't mean you have to use it. This thread is for people who want to use it and/or give constructive criticism. First off, here are the guns I have so far and most of the mechanics I'm using, including some feats. 1.16.08 Added 3 New PrC's - Rough Drafts 1.14.08 Added New Magic Rifles, New Feat 1.13.08 Added some more Flavor Text 1.12.08 Added new feat, Gun Warrior 1.3.08 Added Laser Sight, Barrelscope PrC's Coming Soon More Feats, Clips, Guns, etc. Coming Soon v1.3 Spellguns done Here is the flavor/fluff I'm currently working on: Invention of Guns: The invention of the Artificer's Bolt-Action Rifle (and futher creations) is credited to Zyash, a Gnome Artificer working with Varth d'Cannith, a House Cannith Artificer. During the last decade of the Last War, Zyash wanted a better crossbow and set out to design one and through a random idea when he was repairing a broken crossbow did he get the idea. Zyash designed a prototype to which both he and Varth refined into the basic bolt-action rifle. The basic design was a crossbow that used magic to fire the bolts instead of mechianics, which allowed it to fire harder and more relably. They removed the arms and lengthened the barrel. Varth showed this to the rest of House Cannith and they immeditately took to it and started producing and selling them for the war. Use of them during the Last War: The rifle was an instant hit among those troops who could afford them and sorta became a status emblem for higher ranking officers. Soldiers who used them loved it. They loved the increased power but relatively short reload time and overall easy to use weapon. Also since it used crossbow bolts it could be used in any division with crossbows. The weapon was usually given to protect more valuable people and property. Although the gun was superior to the crossbow, the crossbow was still the standard because it was really cheap. The invention of Spellguns: Zyash and Varth, the creators of the Artificers's Bolt-Action rifle continued to tinker and innovate with the rifes. They had created a mundane one that simply was a modified crossbow. They wanted something truly magical. They set to work and completely remade the rifle. They started with a new frame and decided they wanted to fire bolts of magical energy, or at least small sling bullets. First the idea of the ammunition and powering the gun was the first major problem. How would they load the gun and fire magical bullets? Having a constant source of ammunition was going to be a heavy task and would require some powerful magic, maybe even an elemental. Then one day, when working on some wands for a buyer, it hit them, wands. They immediately set to work creating a modified wand turning it into a more rectanglular clip charged with raw energy. They loaded the gun and tweaked it and fired it. A blast of magic energy shot out and blew a hole through the table. They had just created the first Spellgun. They immedately set to creating the Spellpistol and Spellrifle, modifing it each time and immproving upon the last. Once the first of each were created, they presented their new weapons to House Cannith. They were hailed as geniuses. House Cannith started to produce the Spell Guns and ammunition and began to sell them at the last few years of the war. Use of Spellguns during the Last War: Here are the basic rifles that anyone can use (Flavor Coming Soon): Artificer's Bolt-Action Rifle Price: 1,000gp Body Slot: -- (held) Caster Level: 3rd Aura: Faint; (DC 17) Transmutation Activation: Standard (manipulation) Weight: 3 lbs. This interesting weapon looks like a crossbow without the arms and a long barrel. It has a few runes along the barrel and on the trigger. This is a weapon that is an alternative to the crossbow. It uses bolts and fires them as a heavy crossbow (1d10 Damage 19-20/x2 Crit), but only takes a move action to reload which provokes AoO's. The gun can use magic bolts and/or can be enchanted like any other weapon; treat as a crossbow. Weapon is considered masterwork (+1 Attack) and is two-handed but can be fired with one hand at a -2 Attack penalty. Need to be proficient with a crossbow to use, and the non-proficency penalty is -2 instead of -4. All feats that apply to a crossbow, applies to the rifle. Prereqs: Craft Wonderous Item, Launch Bolt (SpC 130) Cost to Create: 500gp, 40 XP, 1 Day Artificer's Semi-Auto Rifle Price: 1,600gp Body Slot: -- (held) Caster Level: 4th Aura: Faint; (DC 17) Transmutation Activation: Standard (manipulation) Weight: 4 lbs. This looks like the bolt-action rifle but it has a clip of bolts and a small lever to reload very fast. This functions like a bolt-action rifle (see above) except this has a clip of bolts. The rifle holds one clip at a time which holds 8 bolts. Reloading the gun with a clip is a free action that doesn't provoke AoO's. Replacing the clip is a standard action that provokes AoO's. Weapon is considered Masterwork (+1 Attack) and is two-handed but can be fired with one hand at a -2 Attack penalty. Need to be proficient with a crossbow to use, and the non-proficency penalty is -2 instead of -4. All feats that apply to a crossbow, applies to the rifle. Prereqs: Craft Wonderous Item, Launch Bolt (SpC 130) Cost to Create: 800gp, 64 XP, 2 Days Artificer's Bolt-Action Pistol Price: 1,400gp Body Slot: -- (held) Caster Level: 3rd Aura: Faint; (DC 17) Transmutation Activation: Standard (manipulation) Weight: 1 lbs. This interesting weapon looks like a hand crossbow without the arms and a long barrel. It has a few runes along the barrel and on the trigger. This is a weapon that is an alternative to the hand crossbow. It uses bolts and fires them as a small light crossbow (1d6 Damage 19-20/x2 Crit), but only takes a move action to reload which provokes AoO's. The gun can use magic bolts and/or can be enchanted like any other weapon; treat as a crossbow. Weapon is considered masterwork (+1 Attack) and is one-handed. Need to be proficient with a hand crossbow to use, and the non-proficency penalty is -2 instead of -4. All feats that apply to a crossbow, applies to the rifle. Prereqs: Craft Wonderous Item, Launch Bolt (SpC 130) Cost to Create: 700gp, 55 XP, 1 Day Artificer's Grenade Launcher Price: 750gp Body Slot: -- (held) Caster Level: 3th Aura: Faint; (DC 17) Transmutation Activation: Standard (manipulation) Weight: 2 lbs. This also looks like the rifle although it has a wider barrel for fitting bigger things such as alchemist fire. This weapon allows you to fire fine-sized splash weapons much futher than you could throw them. As a standard action you can fire the projectile up to 110ft. It's a move action to reload, which provokes AoO's. You can fire things such as Alchemist Fire, Frost, Spark, Acid, Thunderstones, Holy water etc. Need to be proficient in the crossbow to use. Any feats related to splash-weapons apply. Prereqs: Craft Wonderous Item, Launch Item (SpC 130) Cost to Create: 375gp, 30 XP, 1 Day Gun Attachments Bayonet Price: 20gp Weight: 1 lb. This blade attaches to the front of the gun and allows you to use it in melee. This can be attached to the Rifles but not the Pistol. Treat as a Short Spear when attacking. Laser Sight Inspired by Rekko Price: 200gp Weight: -- This small tube attaches to the top of your gun and when activated it makes a small red dot appear exactly where you are aiming, allowing you to be more accurate. This gives you a +1 bonus to attack rolls. However, the red dot can be seen and makes it harder for you to target someone without knowing. A Spot check DC 25 is required to see the red dot on you. Once aware of the dot, a Spot check DC 20 is required to see it the fallowing rounds to know if you are still targeted. If the check is successful, you aren't considered flat-footed. Barrelscope Inspired by Rekko Price: 50gp Weight: 1/2 lb. This tube has a couple of lenses in it that allows for viewing further but still with deadly accuracy. While looking through the barrelscope you take penalties for range increments as if it was one range increment shorter. Also, you are Flat-Footed while looking through the barrelscope. Here are magical versions of the Basic Rifles: Zyash's Rifle Price: 34,000 Body Slot: -- (held) Caster Level: 9th Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) Transmutation Activation: See Text Weight: 2 lbs. This finely crafted rifle was the first one made and appears slightly translucent with his signature on the handle This functions as a Small +1 Quick Loading Force Bolt-Action Rifle. Also, 1/day you can fire an overload shot from the rifle that is much more forceful; the shot has +2d10 Force damage. After the overload shot is fired, the rifle needs to cool down. It takes 1 round to cool down during which it can't be used. Lore: Zyash created the first bolt-action rifle because he wanted to be better in combat so he created a better weapon. Once he created the weapon he kept adding on to it eventually creating his custom rifle. Prereqs: Craft Magical Arms & Armor, Quick Loading (+1 Bonus), Force (+2 Bonus) Cost to Create: 17,000gp, 1360 XP, 34 Days Skull Sniper Price: 22,000gp Body Slot: -- (Held) Caster Level: 12th Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) Conjuration & Transmutation Activation: Standard (manipulation) Weight: 2 lbs. This black bolt-action rifle has the symbol of a skull and crossbones on the barrel as well has the holy symbol of the Sovereign Host (Eberron) on the moonstone encrusted handle. It glows a silvery light whenever undead approach. The Skull Sniper functions as a +1 Undead Fiercebane Bolt-action Rifle. In addition, 1/day you can fire a holy burst shot that explodes and deals holy damage in a burst. Once the shot hits an Undead, it deals normal damage and then explodes dealing 2d6+3 Damage in a 15ft Burst to all Undead (and only undead) within the area except the one that was shot; the shot explodes regardless of whether it hit or not. Lore: Rykar, a good friend of Zyash that adventured with him, asked Zyash to create him a bolt-action rifle that could easily kill undead and could do a last ditch shot like his could. Zyash created the Skull Sniper which he gave to Rykar and the gun and Rykar became a legend as an Undead killer. Prereqs: Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Summon Monster I, Light of Mercuria Cost to Create: 11,000gp, 880XP, 22 Days Here are the basic Spellguns or Spellrifles (Flavor Coming Soon): Spell Pistol Price: 2,000gp Body Slot: -- (held) Caster Level: 5th Aura: Faint; (DC 17) Transmutation & Conjuration Activation: Standard (manipulation) Weight: 2 lbs. This interesting weapon looks like a metal hand crossbow without the arms and a metal barrel. It has a few runes along the barrel and on the trigger. This weapon is an alternative to the hand crossbow and fires magic bullets from a wand-like clip. This weapon does 1d6 Damage; 20/x2 Crit; 100ft Range and is a Masterwork Light weapon which requires a Ranged Touch Attack. It takes a standard action to reload, which provokes AoO's, for a proficient user; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Each clip holds 10 charges or shots and when it is empty, the clip becomes useless. Prereqs: Craft Wonderous Item, Launch Bolt (SpC 130) Cost to Create: 1000gp, 80 XP, 2 Days Spell Gun Price: 3,000gp Body Slot: -- (held) Caster Level: 5th Aura: Faint; (DC 18) Transmutation & Conjuration Activation: Standard (manipulation) Weight: 3 lbs. This interesting weapon looks like a somewhat larger metal hand crossbow without the arms and a metal medium sized barrel. It has a few runes along the barrel and on the trigger. This weapon is an alternative to the crossbow and fires magic bullets from a wand-like clip. This weapon does 1d8 Damage; 20/x2 Crit; 110ft Range and is a Masterwork One-Handed weapon which requires a Ranged Touch Attack. It takes a full-round action to reload, which provokes AoO's, for a proficient user; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a standard action. Each clip holds 10 charges or shots and when it is empty, the clip becomes useless. Prereqs: Craft Wonderous Item, Launch Bolt (SpC 130) Cost to Create: 1,500gp, 120 XP, 3 Days Spell Rifle Price: 4,000gp Body Slot: -- (held) Caster Level: 5th Aura: Faint; (DC 18) Transmutation & Conjuration Activation: Standard (manipulation) Weight: 5 lbs. This interesting weapon looks like a metal crossbow without the arms and a metal long barrel. It has a few runes along the barrel and on the trigger. This weapon is an alternative to the crossbow and fires magic bullets from a wand-like clip. This weapon does 1d10 Damage; 20/x2 Crit; 120ft Range and is a Masterwork Two-Handed weapon which requires a Ranged Touch Attack. It takes a full-round action to reload, which provokes AoO's, for a proficient user; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a standard action. Each clip holds 10 charges or shots and when it is empty, the clip becomes useless. Prereqs: Craft Wonderous Item, Launch Bolt (SpC 130) Cost to Create: 2,000gp, 160 XP, 4 Days Ammunition Clips Note: Ammo Clips are really simple and easy to craft. You can craft up to 3 ammo clips in one day as long as you have the componets. Standard Ammo Clip Price: 10gp Caster Level: 3rd Weight: 1/2 lb. These are the long black clips that are loaded into Spellguns. Each one contains 10 charges or shots and 1 clip fits all. Prereqs: Craft Wondrous Item, Inflict Light Wounds Cost to Create: 5gp, 1 XP, 1 Day Bullet Clip Price: 5gp Caster Level: 3rd Weight: 1/2 lb. These are the long black clips that are loaded into Spellguns. This one instead of containing spell charges, it contains mini sling bullets. These bullets do normal damage for a gun but do Piercing damage and require a normal ranged attack. Prereqs: Craft Wondrous Item, Launch Bolt Cost to Create: 3gp, 1 XP, 1 Day Elemental Clip Price: 15gp Caster Level: 3rd Weight: 1/2 lb. These are the long black clips that are loaded into Spellguns. Each one contains 10 charges or shots and 1 clip fits all. These clips also do damage of a certain element, which can be either Fire, Cold, Acid, or Electricity Damage. Prereqs: Craft Wondrous Item, Spell of Relative Element (i.e. Burning Hands for Fire, etc.) Cost to Create: 8gp, 1 XP, 1 Day Leathal Clip Price: 15gp Caster Level: 3rd Weight: 1/2 lb. These are the long black clips that are loaded into Spellguns. Each one contains 10 charges or shots and 1 clip fits all. These clips have more piercing capabilities and increase the critical multiplier by one (to x3). Prereqs: Craft Wondrous Item, Inflict Light Wounds Cost to Create: 8gp, 1 XP, 1 Day Holy/Dark Clip Price: 15gp Caster Level: 3rd Weight: 1/2 lb. These are the long black clips that are loaded into Spellguns. Each one contains 10 charges or shots and 1 clip fits all. These clips are either blessed by holyness or darkness. Holy shots do double damage to undead and heal living creatures equal to the damage of the gun. Dark shots heal undead and do normal damage to living creatures. Prereqs: Craft Wondrous Item, Inflict Light Wounds, Bless or Doom Cost to Create: 8gp, 1 XP, 1 Day Piercing Clip Price: 15gp Caster Level: 3rd Weight: 1/2 lb. These are the long black clips that are loaded into Spellguns. Each one contains 10 charges or shots and 1 clip fits all. These clip shots are much more accurate and acute and increase the critical threat to 19-20. Prereqs: Craft Wondrous Item, Inflict Light Wounds Cost to Create: 8gp, 1 XP, 1 Day Gun Attachments Bayonet Price: 20gp Weight: 1 lb. This long blade attaches to the front of your gun allowing you to use it as a melee weapon. They can only be attached to Spell Guns and Spell Rifles (not Spell Pistols). Treat as a Short Spear for a Spell Rifle and a Punching Dagger for a Spell Gun. Laser Sight Inspired by Rekko Price: 200gp Weight: -- This small tube attaches to the top of your gun and when activated it makes a small red dot appear exactly where you are aiming, allowing you to be more accurate. This gives you a +1 bonus to attack rolls. However, the red dot can be seen and makes it harder for you to target someone without knowing. A Spot check DC 25 is required to see the red dot on you. Once aware of the dot, a Spot check DC 20 is required to see it the fallowing rounds to know if you are still targeted. If the check is successful, you aren't considered flat-footed. Barrelscope Inspired by Rekko Price: 50gp Weight: 1/2 lb. This tube has a couple of lenses in it that allows for viewing further but still with deadly accuracy. While looking through the barrelscope you take penalties for range increments as if it was one range increment shorter. Also, you are Flat-Footed while looking through the barrelscope. Here are some Feats, etc.: General Feat [Spellguns Proficiency] Requirements: Base attack bonus +3, or Use Magic Device 5 ranks Benefit: You gain proficiency with spellguns. Normal: When you aren't proficient with spellgun you suffer -4 on attack rolls. Special: Fighters and Wizards can get this feat as a bonus feat. Spellgun Feat [Overchannel Shot] Prerequisites: Profiency Spellguns, Use Magic Device 6 ranks Benefit: This allows you to overchannel your shots and use multiple charges to deal more damage. You may use up to 3 charges to deal extra damage. Each extra charge deals an extra shot of damage (e.x. 3 charge overchannel on a Spellgun would do 3d8 damage). After the ability is used the gun needs a 1 round cool down in which it can't be used. Spellgun Feat [Action Hero Shot] Prerequisites: Profiency Spellguns, Action Boost Benefit: By spending one of your action points you may fire an action shot from your Spellgun. An action shot uses 1 action point and deals an extra 1d8 of damage and doesn't use a charge from your ammo clip. General Feat [Gun Warrior] Prerequisites: Profiency Guns or Spellguns, BAB +5 Benefit: You have trained yourself to use your guns in melee more effectivally. Increase the Bayonet damage die by one. You may also make melee attacks with the gun itself. The attack deals 1d4+Str Bludgeoning Damage or 1d6+Str for a two handed gun. Note this works with all guns and bayonets. Spellgun Feat [Eldritch Ammunition] Prerequisites: Profiency Spellguns, Able to cast 1st level spells, Spellcraft 5 Ranks Benefit: You have trained to be able to use your own arcane/divine spell power into your spell guns. You can spend a prepared spell or spell slot to either enhance the damage of the current ammunition or fire it as raw energy. Each spell you sacrifice deals +1d4 damage per spell level. You can only sacrifice one spell at a time and is a standard action to fire.
Watsyurname529 11-29-07, 05:59 PM	Here are the PrC's that I'm working on. All names pending change. If you have a suggestion/idea for a better PrC name, please tell me. This is the Arcane Spellcaster Marksman PrC. The Eldritch Marksman Picture URL "This...is...my BOOM STICK!" - Rurik Blackpowder, Dwarven Eldritch Marksman A general description of whatever the class is! Becoming an Eldritch Marksman How you would normally become a member of this prestige class. ENTRY REQUIREMENTS To qualify to become a Eldritch Marksman, a character must fulfill all the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +3 Skills: Concentration +5, Spellcraft +5, Use Magic Device +1 Spellcasting: Must be able to cast 3rd Level Arcane Spells. Weapon Proficiency: Spellguns Class Skills Eldritch Marksman’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (Arcana, Planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha) Skills Points at Each Level : 2 + Int Mod Hit Dice: d6 BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities 1. +0 +0 +0 +2 Gun Focus, Armor Training -- 2. +1 +0 +0 +3 Eldritch Ammunition +1d4 +1 Level to existing Arcane Spellcasting 3. +2 +1 +1 +3 Spellshot I +1 Level to existing Arcane Spellcasting 4. +3 +1 +1 +4 Somatic Gun +1 Level to existing Arcane Spellcasting 5. +3 +1 +1 +4 Craft Ammunition -- 6. +4 +2 +2 +5 Spellshot II +1 Level to existing Arcane Spellcasting 7. +5 +2 +2 +5 Eldritch Ammunition +1d6 +1 Level to existing Arcane Spellcasting 8. +6 +2 +2 +6 Greater Gun Focus +1 Level to existing Arcane Spellcasting 9. +6 +3 +3 +6 Spellshot III -- 10.+7 +3 +3 +7 Boom-Stick +1 Level to existing Arcane Spellcasting Weapon Proficiencies: Eldritch Marksman gains no new weapon proficiencies but gains proficiency in Light Armor. Gun Focus (Ex): An Eldritch Marksman's gun is his weapon of choice and as such is trained heavily in its use. An Eldritch Marksman gains Weapon Focus (Guns) as a bonus feat. If you already have Weapon Focus, then this improves it by +1. Armor Training (Ex): An Eldritch Marksman is going to be in more combat and in much more danger than a normal wizard. As such, they train in the use of some armor. An Eldritch Marksman may now Ignore Spell Failure chance from Light Armor. This ability only functions when weaing Light Armor and not carrying a medium or heavy load. Spells per Day/Spells Known: At every Eldritch Marksman level except first, fifth, and ninth, an Eldritch Marksman gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in one arcane spellcasting class he possessed before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, such as familiar progression. Eldritch Ammunition (Ex): An Eldritch Marksman learns how to turn his raw arcane energy into his gun and fire it as a shot or increase the power of the current shot. You can spend a prepared spell or spell slot to either enhance the damage of the current ammunition or fire it as raw energy. Each spell you sacrifice deals +1d4 damage per spell level. You can only sacrifice one spell at a time and is a standard action to fire. The damage per spell level increases to +1d6 at 7th Level. Spellshot I (Sp): Somatic Gun (Ex): An Eldritch Marksman learns how to hold a gun and still make the intricate movements required for casting. He treats the gun as an extention or as a part of him to make the movements. You can cast spells with somatic components holding a gun in your hand. Playing an Eldritch Marksman Brief description on how to play the class you are designing. Combat: Here's a section where you will describe common combat methods for your class. Remember to include information on how your class will use his powers in combat. Advancement: This is a section on different options and paths that the class can go down when they advance in power. Resources: What resources might a member of this PrC be able to draw on.. Eldritch Marksman in the World A quote of somebody else talking about your class! A brief description of how your class is persevered in the world and how he interacts with the world. Daily Life: Some general information about the typical day in the life of your class. Notables: Make up some cool information about notable figures in the history of your class. It's best to give a little information from one of the good alignment and evil alignment (unless it's a good or evil only class). Organizations: Some information about organizations dedicated to the practice of your class and other organizations which members of your class will be attracted towards. NPC Reaction This is an in detail description of how NPC's would perceive your class and the immediate generalization that people would give of your class. Eldritch Marksman in the Game This is a good place to provide a quick note on how your class will effect game play statistically. Adaptation: This is a place where you put in detail how people can adapt your class into their campaign setting. Encounters: This is a place to describe what sort of encounters PC's will have with NPC versions of your class. Sample Encounter Give an example of how one might encounter a member of this PrC. EL x: Give the encounter level and description of a sample member of this class and a stat block for him/her. Name alignment/Gender/Race/Levels Init +0, Senses: Listen +, Spot +, Languages ------------------------------------------------ AC , touch , flat-footed () hp ( HD) Fort +, Ref +, Will + ------------------------------------------------ Speed ft. ( squares) Melee Base Atk +, Grp + Atk Options Combat Gear Spells Prepared Supernatural Abilities ----------------------------------------------- Abilities Str , Dex , Con , Int , Wis , Cha SQ Feats Skills Possessions This is the roguish, long ranged gunner. The Spellgun Sniper Picture URL Quote of Some Kind by a member of the class! A general description of whatever the class is! Becoming a Spellgun Sniper How you would normally become a member of this prestige class. ENTRY REQUIREMENTS To qualify to become a Spellgun Sniper, a character must fulfill all the following criteria: Skills: Hide +8, Move Silently +8, Use Magic Device +3 Feats: Precise Shot Weapon Proficiency: Spell Guns Special: +2d6 Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike Class Skills Spellgun Sniper’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are.... Skills Points at Each Level : 6 + int Hit Dice: d6 BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities 1. +0 +0 +2 +0 2. +1 +0 +3 +0 Sneak Attack +1d6 3. +2 +1 +3 +1 4. +3 +1 +4 +1 Sneak Attack +2d6 5. +3 +1 +4 +1 6. +4 +2 +5 +2 Sneak Attack +3d6 7. +5 +2 +5 +2 8. +6 +2 +6 +2 Sneak Attack +4d6 9. +6 +3 +6 +3 10.+7 +3 +7 +3 Sneak Attack +5d6 Weapon Proficiencies: Spellgun Sniper gains no new weapon or armor proficiencies. Playing a Spellgun Sniper Brief description on how to play the class you are designing. Combat: Here's a section where you will describe common combat methods for your class. Remember to include information on how your class will use his powers in combat. Advancement: This is a section on different options and paths that the class can go down when they advance in power. Resources: What resources might a member of this PrC be able to draw on.. Spellgun Snipers in the World A quote of somebody else talking about your class! A brief description of how your class is persevered in the world and how he interacts with the world. Daily Life: Some general information about the typical day in the life of your class. Notables: Make up some cool information about notable figures in the history of your class. It's best to give a little information from one of the good alignment and evil alignment (unless it's a good or evil only class). Organizations: Some information about organizations dedicated to the practice of your class and other organizations which members of your class will be attracted towards. NPC Reaction This is an in detail description of how NPC's would perceive your class and the immediate generalization that people would give of your class. Spellguns Snipers in the Game This is a good place to provide a quick note on how your class will effect game play statistically. Adaptation: This is a place where you put in detail how people can adapt your class into their campaign setting. Encounters: This is a place to describe what sort of encounters PC's will have with NPC versions of your class. Sample Encounter Give an example of how one might encounter a member of this PrC. EL x: Give the encounter level and description of a sample member of this class and a stat block for him/her. Name alignment/Gender/Race/Levels Init +0, Senses: Listen +, Spot +, Languages ------------------------------------------------ AC , touch , flat-footed () hp ( HD) Fort +, Ref +, Will + ------------------------------------------------ Speed ft. ( squares) Melee Base Atk +, Grp + Atk Options Combat Gear Spells Prepared Supernatural Abilities ----------------------------------------------- Abilities Str , Dex , Con , Int , Wis , Cha SQ Feats Skills Possessions This is the Dragonmarked gunner. The Dragonmarked Revolver Picture URL "This tatoo ain't just for show kid." A Dragonmarked Revolver is a dragonmarked character who has trained in the use of spellguns. Specifically, dragonshard core spellguns. They attune their dragonmark to the dragonshard within and are able to enhance the gun and create special shots based on their dragonmark. Becoming a Dragonmarked Revolver Dragonmarked Revolvers can be anyone who has a Dragonmark. Ranged combantants might find the class more useful to them than front line fighters. Dragonmarked Revolvers are usually high ranking members of the house to own a dragonshard spellgun and train in its use, but anyone can potienally be one if they have a mark. ENTRY REQUIREMENTS To qualify to become a Dragonmarked Revolver, a character must fulfill all the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +4 Skills: Spellcraft +3, 6 Ranks in any one Skill Feats: Least Dragon Mark (Any) Weapon Proficiency: Spellguns Special: Must have a Dragonshard Core Spellgun Class Skills Dragonmarked Revolver’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Info (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Professon (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int) and the requirement skill. Skills Points at Each Level : 4 + Int Mod Hit Dice: d8 BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities 1. +0 +2 +0 +2 Attune Dragonshard I, Heir's Mark, Improved Mark 2. +1 +3 +0 +3 Dragonmark Shot +1dX 3. +2 +3 +1 +3 Attune Dragonshard II, Shot of the Mark 4. +3 +4 +1 +4 Dragonmark Shot +2dX 5. +3 +4 +1 +4 Attune Dragonshard III, Revolver Shot Weapon Proficiencies: Dragonmarked Revolver gains no new weapon or armor proficiencies. Attune Dragonshard I (Ex): A Dragonmarked Revolver attunes his Dragonmark to the Dragonshard core of his spellgun giving the gun increased power. At 1st level, the gun gains an effective +1 Bonus when weilded by the Dragonmarked Revolver. Heir's Mark: A Dragonmarked Revolver's prestige class levels count as levels in the Dragonmarked Heir prestige class for determining the caster level for spell-like abilities of your dragonmark. Improved Mark (Su): A Dragonmarked Revolver improves upon his dragonmark, being able to use it more. A Dragonmarked Revolver may use their Least Dragonmark power one more time per Dragonmarked Revolver class level. Dragonmarked Shot (Su): A Dragonmarked Revolver can channel their dragonmark through the dragonshard core of their spellguns, making the shot vastly more powerful. As a standard action you may make a Dragonmarked Shot by expending one use of your Dragonmark power. Expending a Least power adds +1d6 damage, Lesser +1d8 damage, Greater +1d10 damage, and Siberys +2d6 damage to the shot. At 4th level this increases to 2dX, where X is the power you spend (Siberys would do +4d6 damage). Attune Dragonshard II (Ex): A Dragonmarked Revolver constantly strengthens his bond with his dragonshard core gaining greater power with the weapon. Another +1 bonus is added to the weapon making it a +2 Weapon or you may select one +1 enchantment instead (which the enchantment must be able to be added to a Spellgun). Ex, you could have a +2 Spellgun or a +1 Shock Spellgun. Shot of the Mark (Su): A Dragonmarked Revolver can make a shot using the specific power of their dragonmark. 3/Day a Dragonmarked Revolver can make a Shot of the Mark which has the properties based on the dragonmark: Aberrant Mark (Any): The shot deals an extra +2d4 damage of any energy they choose. Mark of Detection: The shot casts one of the following on the target: Detect Magic, Good/Evil/Law/Chaos and lingers for 5 rounds. Mark of Finding: The shot explodes and creates a glitterdust effect in a 10ft burst centered on the target. Mark of Handling: Mark of Healing: The shot heals living creatures equal to the damage it would deal. Mark of Hospitality: Mark of Making: The shot repairs constructs instead of damaging them or deals an extra +1d8 damage. Mark of Passage: The shot is a dislocater shot and teleports the target 10ft in any direction, DC (10+Cha Mod+Revolver Class Levels) Will Save negates. Can't teleport the target into an occupied space. Mark of Scribing: Mark of Sentinel: Mark of Shadow: The shot ignores miss chance due to concealment. Mark of Storm: The shot deals an extra +1d8 electricity damage. Mark of Warding: The shot casts Dispel Magic on the target (Use CL of Dragonmark for Dispel Check). Attune Dragonshard III (Ex): A Dragonmarked Revolver takes his bond with the dragonshard core to it's highest level. Another +1 bonus is added to the weapon making it a +3 Weapon or you may select one +1 enchantment instead (which the enchantment must be able to be added to a Spellgun). Ex, you could have a +3 Spellgun or a +2 Shock Spellgun or a +1 Shocking Burst Spellgun, etc. Revolver Shot (Ex): A Dragonmarked Revolver gets their name from this powerful ability. 1/Day you may make a Revolver Shot as part of a Dragonmarked Shot. A Revolver shot uses more than one shot of ammo in conjunction with a Dragonmarked Shot. The shot deals Xd6 where X is the number of charges of the clip you sacrifice plus the damage from your Dragonmarked shot. Ex. a 10d6+2d6 would be a Revolver Shot using a Least Power plus 10 charges of a clip. Playing a Dragonmarked Revolver Brief description on how to play the class you are designing. Combat: Here's a section where you will describe common combat methods for your class. Remember to include information on how your class will use his powers in combat. Advancement: This is a section on different options and paths that the class can go down when they advance in power. Resources: What resources might a member of this PrC be able to draw on.. Dragonmarked Revolvers in the World A quote of somebody else talking about your class! A brief description of how your class is persevered in the world and how he interacts with the world. Daily Life: Some general information about the typical day in the life of your class. Notables: Make up some cool information about notable figures in the history of your class. It's best to give a little information from one of the good alignment and evil alignment (unless it's a good or evil only class). Organizations: Some information about organizations dedicated to the practice of your class and other organizations which members of your class will be attracted towards. NPC Reaction This is an in detail description of how NPC's would perceive your class and the immediate generalization that people would give of your class. Dragonmarked Revolver in the Game This is a good place to provide a quick note on how your class will effect game play statistically. Adaptation: This is a place where you put in detail how people can adapt your class into their campaign setting. Encounters: This is a place to describe what sort of encounters PC's will have with NPC versions of your class. Sample Encounter Give an example of how one might encounter a member of this PrC. EL x: Give the encounter level and description of a sample member of this class and a stat block for him/her. Name alignment/Gender/Race/Levels Init +0, Senses: Listen +, Spot +, Languages ------------------------------------------------ AC , touch , flat-footed () hp ( HD) Fort +, Ref +, Will + ------------------------------------------------ Speed ft. ( squares) Melee Base Atk +, Grp + Atk Options Combat Gear Spells Prepared Supernatural Abilities ----------------------------------------------- Abilities Str , Dex , Con , Int , Wis , Cha SQ Feats Skills Possessions
Rekko 11-29-07, 07:40 PM	Besides that the ammo is different, I don't really get the difference between spellguns and normal guns. Also, if the guns are mechanical masterworked weapons, why do you need Launch bolt to create it? Also, you need to give us the fluff on how you integratd the guns into your Eberron game. It's going to help in our comments. All in all, pretty interesting work, and I'll be watching the progress of it. Rekko
Watsyurname529 11-29-07, 07:50 PM	Besides that the ammo is different, I don't really get the difference between spellguns and normal guns. Also, if the guns are mechanical masterworked weapons, why do you need Launch bolt to create it? Also, you need to give us the fluff on how you integratd the guns into your Eberron game. It's going to help in our comments. All in all, pretty interesting work, and I'll be watching the progress of it. Rekko The guns are not mechanical, but are refined in such a way that they are considered masterwork weapons (+1 Attack) and can be enchanted since they are masterwork quality. Also, the Spellguns should be a Ranged Touch Attack, which I need to clarify and they will be much different as I will be adding a bunch of different abilities and a couple PrC's devoted to Spellguns. I'll get to working on the flavor.
Rekko 11-29-07, 10:51 PM	This clears up some things. However, I was reading through again and was wondering why the UMD checks for spellgun and not for the basic guns? Moreover, why the UMD checks anyway, don't you only have to pull the trigger? Rekko
Watsyurname529 11-29-07, 11:09 PM	This clears up some things. However, I was reading through again and was wondering why the UMD checks for spellgun and not for the basic guns? Moreover, why the UMD checks anyway, don't you only have to pull the trigger? Rekko Well, the UMD Checks were to help keep the power down since to use the guns you needed a UMD Check, although I probably should just make the prereqs for the profiency feat enough. Yea, I'll change that. In the mean time, feel free to read the flavor and extra stuff I've put up so far.
skrap-san 11-30-07, 02:52 AM	I agree with the rest, it needs some clarifications, but all in all its a good solution to what I see as the second of three roads to go (or a mix of two). 1. Being the "this gun shoots magical energy way." 2. Being "this gun shoots projectiles with the help of basic magic" 3. Is the "we have bound elementals to fire our guns." I have been thinking about all of them, and I'm not done yet either. I really like the [Overchannel shot] feat. it really ads some good flavor to the magic department of the weapon. And i really like your ammunition variations. I'm still not convinced that there is a big enough difference between the standard mundane guns and the magical guns, but I choose to see this as a work in progress.
Rekko 11-30-07, 08:53 AM	I'd change the name of the Piercing Clip to Lethal Clip, and the name of Sniper Clip to either Accurate Clip or Piercing Clip. When you create guns and feats, and even the upcoming PrC, what base class do you base yourself on? The Artificer? the Fighter? the Rogue? The Ranger, other? I'm asking this question to know who's supposed to use the guns and spellguns more frequently? For instance, if spellguns are intended for fighters, 5 ranks in UMD is freaking high as a requirement to get the proficiency feat. However, if they are intended for a Rogue or an Artificer, is level 3 the intended level to start to use spellguns properly? Rekko
Watsyurname529 11-30-07, 04:56 PM	Okay, well first thanks for the opinions and constructive criticism. It helps a lot. Now, there seems to be confusion about the regular guns versus spell guns. Now, the regular ones are just basically magically enhanced crossbows. They use bolts and need crossbow profiency. The reason they are considered magical is because the Launch Bolt spell powers them, but thats all the magic is. Now, they can be enchanted with Flaming, Frost, Shock, etc. These are also supposed to be really easy to use and be a backup ranged weapon (as a bow would still probably be better to use). The spell guns (and to answer skrap-san) fire bolts of magical energy, specifically the kind used in inflict spells or in some cases, elemental energy, but in no way are we binding elementals (maybe for more powerful guns, but that's later). They use wand like clips to power the guns. Now, the guns are intended for anyone, but more for ranged combantants and spellcasters. A fighter would probably still use their Greatswords, Lances, Battleaxes, Spears, Bows, etc. The classes who would probably use them are classes like the Rogue, Artificer, Swashbuckler, Scout, Ranger, any spellcaster, etc. Not really for melee classes, except as maybe a ranged/backup weapon. This is why I kept the profiency UMD requirement somewhat low. The guns are not supposed to be extremely complex, but more so than a crossbow and thus need training in how to use magic devices properly. The ability to use spellguns at level 3 maybe a little overpowered, but not by much seeing as level 3 characters probably couldn't pay to use them that much. Also, a d10 at most per round isn't extremely high seeing as a straight fighter could easily out damage that [at 3rd level]. I hope this has cleared up most of the confusion between the two types of guns and where I'm trying to go. Also, the 3 PrC ideas I have are a gun mage, a sniper, and the basic spellslinger (which can be either a dueler, double pistol, or maybe a rifleman). Edit: I thought of a feat that could ease the pain for fighters and other classes w/ low skill points and no UMD as a class skill. See how you like it and if it's good or not. General feat [Spellgun Trainee] Prerequisites: Use Magic Device 1 Rank Benefit: You found a teacher that can teach you the basics of a spellgun and how to use it. You can use this feat in place of the 5 ranks of UMD for Proficency Spellguns as long as you meet the other requirements. Also, you can use this feat in place of up to 5 ranks in UMD for the purpose of meeting PrC requirements.
skrap-san 11-30-07, 06:09 PM	thanks for clearing that up, but I think you should keep in mind that Wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid don't have UMD. So if you are going to base it on any of those classes (me thinking cleric/wizard being most logical), I would make the UMD pre rec optional. Say for example, UMD 5 or able to cast 2nd lvl spells.
Rekko 12-01-07, 01:28 AM	thanks for clearing that up, but I think you should keep in mind that Wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid don't have UMD. So if you are going to base it on any of those classes (me thinking cleric/wizard being most logical), I would make the UMD pre rec optional. Say for example, UMD 5 or able to cast 2nd lvl spells. I like that, if the intention is for clerics and wizards to use. While a good idea, however, I disapprove the new feat Spellgun Trainee, since it would be too powerfull for classes with UMD as a class skill. I know it could be really stupid to take the feat instead of just maxing our UMD, but who knows what people can build as a character. I am thinking of the Rogue, a class that needs a lot of different skills. In this way, he could take only one rank in UMD to use spellguns. Moreover, the fighter could take both feats(profiency and trainee) at level one (if only they are fighter bonus feats, well at least one of them) I think the solution to give fighters spellguns earlier lies elsewhere. For example: Spellguns Proficiency Requirements: Base attack bonus +3, or Use Magic Device 5 ranks Benefit: You gain proficiency with spellguns. Normal: When you aren't proficient with spellgun you suffer -4 on attack rolls. Special: Fighter (and wizards?) can get this feat as a bonus feat. I just figured out that ranged touch attack was freaking powerful, well, not that much when you use a simple spellgun, but when you change the ammo or use feats and upcoming class features, this might become very, very powerful. Well, we still only have a few pieces of the puzzle (missing some feats and some PrC) so this could be fixed in time. Rekko
Watsyurname529 12-01-07, 09:38 AM	Rekko, yea, the way you put it at BAB +3 or UMD 5 Ranks is probably best so that nearly every class could take it if they want to. Also, the UMD or Spells requirement I was already going to do for the PrC's Though you do bring up a good point about the Ranged Touch Attack becoming very powerful later on. We'll probably think of something to keep the power in check.
Rekko 12-05-07, 03:58 PM	Just a bump here to inform you that I'm waiting for more. Since you are using edits, can you post you have edited your creation, it will make fallowing this thread a whole lot easier since we'll be informed in our subscribed threads of a new post, while we aren't informed of editing. Second, would you allow me to post my version of firearms and gun PrC here (if I get to make some) Rekko
skrap-san 12-05-07, 06:02 PM	Well I am also waiting for more, and I think it should be ok to post your own creations in here, it seems fair to see as many takes on this. (personaly im a bit dry on firearms atm). And sure I will post when I edit my posts.
Watsyurname529 12-05-07, 06:06 PM	Sorry about that, I'll post with a list of edits when I make them. Also feel free to post your own creations. I'll link them w/ the first post so they can be found easier. As for lastest edits: Added New Ammo Clip, Gun Attachments, Clarified some minor things
Watsyurname529 01-03-08, 02:46 PM	:bump: It's been awhile since I worked on this. I added a bunch more flavor/fluff to the Spellguns and I am working on a PrC devoted to the Spellguns as well as a couple of custom guns to add.
Rekko 01-03-08, 03:42 PM	May I suggest some gun attachments. Aiming Laser Light: Gives a +1 to attack rolls, but someone with a dodge bonus that is aware of the light aimed on him can automatically switch the target of his dodge bonus. Spot DC 25 Telescope: Take penalty for ranged increments as if one less range increment. But you are considered flat-footed. Rekko
Watsyurname529 01-03-08, 08:48 PM	Good ideas Rekko, I modified them a bit and added them as the Laser sight and Barrelscope. Look under Gun Attachments of either to see them. Also, the reason I priced the Laser Sight at 200gp is 1. +1 to hit and damage on a magic weapon is 2,000gp 2. This would be the price of a modified continual light spell as a magic item. Thanks for the ideas!
Rekko 01-03-08, 09:45 PM	A Spot DC 25 is required to see the dot and DC 20 if you are aware of the dot. I don't get the DC 20 in the Laser Sight attachment. Nice pricing. Rekko
Watsyurname529 01-03-08, 09:53 PM	Well, the lower DC is designed to be if you are actively looking for the dot, or you saw it and now you are following it. I'll think of someway to reword it.
Rekko 01-04-08, 10:13 AM	A Spot check DC 25 is required to see the red dot on you. Once aware of the dot, a Spot check DC 20 is required to see it the fallowing rounds to know if you are still targeted. If the check is successful, you aren't considered flat-footed. What about this? Rekko
Watsyurname529 01-04-08, 11:21 PM	A Spot check DC 25 is required to see the red dot on you. Once aware of the dot, a Spot check DC 20 is required to see it the fallowing rounds to know if you are still targeted. If the check is successful, you aren't considered flat-footed. Perfect! Thank you!
Rekko 01-10-08, 09:05 AM	You may want to check the spell 'Guiding Light' for that Laser Sight attachment.
Watsyurname529 01-12-08, 08:34 PM	Okay, so I made some minor grammer edits and clarifications and added a new feat, Gun Warrior.
kelvinaw273 01-13-08, 11:55 AM	Why would anyone develop guns in Eberron? One of the things that really attracted me to Eberron was the 'Magicology' over technology angle. While Eberron has all the fundamentals to develop firearms, it has no incentive to do so. Firearms were originally developed from cannon, whose fundamental purpose was knocking down castle walls (not, as everyone assumes, blowing up people - that came later). In Eberron, if you want to knock down a castles' walls, you hire a spell-caster. That's it. Once progress takes a direction, it normally plays it out to the end. Even if the leap was made to flintlocks, they only became popular because they were easier to use than longbows - not more accurate, but in the Real World a longbowman had to be trained for several years to be strong enough to draw the bow. In D&D this is not so, even if it were you'd just have warforged made to do it instead. Perhaps now that warforged are no longer being made there might be an argument to develope weapons easier to use ... if there was a need for them ... and if there weren't so many unemployed ex-soldiers out there ready-trained. Complex advanced firearms require still more - they require advanced low explosives, and complex manufacturing processes, neither of which are available in Eberron. Ammunition in particular requires mass production to ensure it precisely matches the weapon in which it is to be used. Conceivably an artificer specializing in mechanics might conceive of the idea, but the time and energy they would have to invest, the time and error involved ... at the end of the day, if you want to kill somebody, a Wand of Fire would do the job better, cheaper, and with less effort. For arming the troops, Wands of Magic Missiles or magic arrows would be less hassle, I'm not trying to mock your efforts here, but I feel I have to point out why I don't think firearms really belong in Eberron, especially what are effectively modern ones. These are questions I feel you have to over come: What is the impetus to develop firearms? Why would they not use magic to achieve the same ends? Where would they get the precision and expertise to conceive and develop modern firearms from scratch when there are easier options?
Watsyurname529 01-13-08, 03:03 PM	Well kelvinaw273, even though you did exactly what I explicitly said not to do, which was post just to tell me that guns don't belong in Eberron, I do appreciate the fact that you did it politely instead of saying "Guns dont belong in teh Eberron, go away n00b!1!11!". Now, if you had bothered to read any of the flavor text I had written, all those questions would have been answered. But since you obviously didn't read it, I'm going to have to type it out here so that you can. Why would anyone develop guns in Eberron? To kill people more efficiently and to allow easier use of weaponry for untrained soldiers. One of the things that really attracted me to Eberron was the 'Magicology' over technology angle. While Eberron has all the fundamentals to develop firearms, it has no incentive to do so. Neither did it have the incentive to invent the crossbow with all the magicology as you stated, but they still did even though a 1st level Magic Missile would be just as good, even better since it doesn't miss. Firearms were originally developed from cannon, whose fundamental purpose was knocking down castle walls (not, as everyone assumes, blowing up people - that came later). In Eberron, if you want to knock down a castles' walls, you hire a spell-caster. So then why did they build a bigger crossbow, ala the Ballista or the Catapult, the Trebuchet, the Battering Ram, Scorpion (similar to ballista), and etc if they had spellcasters to do all of that? Even if the leap was made to flintlocks, they only became popular because they were easier to use than longbows - not more accurate, but in the Real World a longbowman had to be trained for several years to be strong enough to draw the bow. In D&D this is not so, even if it were you'd just have warforged made to do it instead. Who says it's not? That's what starting ages and all that back-story stuff is about. To be a fighter you have to train for several years and it is represented in D&D for the starting age modifiers by class listed on Pg 109 of the PHB. Also, Warforged were not as mass produced as you think they were. Yes you might have had several battalions of Warforged but out of an entire army. Complex advanced firearms require still more - they require advanced low explosives, and complex manufacturing processes, neither of which are available in Eberron. Complex manufacturing processes are available in Eberron. They were able to create a sentient being from metal and other parts. If they can do that, a gun wouldn't be too much of a problem. Ammunition in particular requires mass production to ensure it precisely matches the weapon in which it is to be used. Are crossbow bolts and arrows not mass produced? Conceivably an artificer specializing in mechanics might conceive of the idea, but the time and energy they would have to invest, the time and error involved ... at the end of the day, if you want to kill somebody, a Wand of Fire would do the job better, cheaper, and with less effort. Exactly, so why did they spend all that time and effort to create Warforged when you could use anybody and a Necklace of Fireballs to achieve the same result? For arming the troops, Wands of Magic Missiles or magic arrows would be less hassle. Yes because Wands require you to have the spell on your spell list or have a decent Charisma and ranks in Use Magic Device. I'm not trying to mock your efforts here, but I feel I have to point out why I don't think firearms really belong in Eberron, especially what are effectively modern ones. These are questions I feel you have to over come: I can see that you're not trying to mock me, which I do thank you for. Although these are "modern" weapons re-tooled to the flavor of D&D. This is where I can obviously see that you didn't read any of the flavor text I had written. What is the impetus to develop firearms? Even though I answered this before, To create a more efficient and easier way to kill. The crossbow was a good start but they wanted better, as said in the 2nd sentence, 3rd line of the first paragraph of the flavor text. Why would they not use magic to achieve the same ends? Here is your dumbest question and most obvious lack of reading pretty much anything I typed. They did use magic, which is why magic is required to create them and why the more advanced versions are called Spellguns. If you read the Prereqs on anything I had created, you would have seen that you need magic to create the guns. Where would they get the precision and expertise to conceive and develop modern firearms from scratch when there are easier options? Because as said in the same line I listed above (1st Paragraph, 2nd Sentence, 3rd Line) they got the idea from repairing a broken crossbow. They wanted a better crossbow, one that would fire harder, more accurate, etc so they used magic to improve it. Also, once again, these are not modern firearms even though that's what they are based off of. Pretty much everything in D&D is based off of reality. Also, where did they get the idea to create the Lightning Rail when you can just Teleport, which is much easier? Where did they get the idea of Airships? Where did they get the idea for Warforged? Simply they saw a problem, and devised a solution. All of the questions you asked me about the firearms, could have been asked about the Lightning Rail, Airships, Warforged, etc. but you accept those just fine. Now, maybe if you had bothered to read any of what I had written, all of your questions would have been answered. Good day to you. -Watsyurname
skrap-san 01-13-08, 04:57 PM	Why would anyone develop guns in Eberron? They once asked JFK, "why the moon?" he answered "Because we can!" as seen in this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958080) and this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=937023) here thread we have gone over the "we don't like guns" discussion. And no one is forcing you to use them. But some of us actually think they would be a cool addition. Now the point is that some of us feel that sometimes a NPC with a gun would be a really cool plot device. So these threads are to find the magic equality of a gun. Personally I dislike calling it a gun, so I went for spellslinger.
Rekko 01-14-08, 08:47 AM	Why would anyone develop guns in Eberron? I thank you for asking the question. It enabled Watsyurname529 to defend his idea and opinion. Because of you, I have an even clearer image of where the 'guns' come from in his game. And as skrap-san said, we were all involved in the other threads on 'guns' and there place in Eberron. And we in about a month and a half that this thread exist, you are the first that asks us the question here. True those other threads might have died a bit. However, there isn't much thread in the Combat section and it's pretty easy to dig them out. Personnally, I don't use guns in Eberron. But I'm not against using them eventually. That's why I help here. Do you have any suggestion on the design and developpement of Watsyurname529's guns? Rekko
Watsyurname529 01-14-08, 04:39 PM	Yes, if you do have any suggestions about them, then I would be happy to hear them. Also, sorry if I sounded very...iritated at you. I kinda was because alot of the questions could have been answered if you looked at the flavor more closely. Once again, I do thank you for doing it politely. As Rekko said, this might be a good thing as it allowed me to show where I'm coming from and why I can justify that guns can be in Eberron. Okay, I just added the first two magical versions of the basic rifles and a new feat. If anyone creates a custom magic rifle, post it here and I'll add it to the first post.
Rekko 01-14-08, 10:35 PM	That last feat is nice, but I'd see it better as a PrC ability. BTW, any PrC, or sketch for a PrC coming up soon? Rekko
Watsyurname529 01-15-08, 09:10 PM	Yea, it kind of does. I think all make it a PrC ability too but make the PrC one more powerful or something. Yea, I'm working on getting the PrC's up soon. I have ideas and stuff I just need to sit down and type them. Also, I got an interesting idea. What do you think the benefits would/should be for a Dragonshard Core or Dragonshard focus, etc. (name pending change) for a normal spell gun? Also, I mean the most common dragonshards and they'd only be a couple inches in length. Increase damage die? I orginally though that as my first thought as a focusing chamber but I would like to hear your ideas.
Rekko 01-16-08, 09:26 AM	On the dragonshard core: Well, it depends if you want to make it a focus or an enhancement. Do you want the dragonshard-cored(DSC) spellguns being friendly to dragonmarked characters? Or you want the DSC spellguns having an extra +1 to something, a bound elemental to it, or allow you to store/cast a spell? Rekko
Watsyurname529 01-16-08, 05:29 PM	Those are all good ideas. I think I will have to come up with those abilities that require a Dragonshard core focus to be put into first. The orginal idea was just a small shard that would focus the energy and ampilfy it but those are all great ideas. I can see a PrC being the Dragonmarked Gunner who uses a Dragonshard Core in the spell gun and gets enhanced powers with the gun. Well I finally got the templetes up for at least 3 PrC's for the project. I have basic ideas for class abilities and stuff but if anyone has any ideas, suggestions, etc. just tell me.
Rekko 01-16-08, 09:44 PM	You could start by giving us those 3 templates and a rough draft of what you have done until now. I also have a few ideas for some guns... but I'll only trade them to you if you hint me those PrC ;) Rekko
Watsyurname529 01-16-08, 10:04 PM	Hm? I put those 3 PrC's in the second post of the entire thread in 3 sblocks. They are the Eldritch Marksman, the Arcane Spellcaster gunner; The Spellgun Sniper, you roguish, sneaky gunner; and The Dragonmarked Revolver, the Dragonmarked gunner. Okay, so I need some major help with the Dragonmarked Revolver. I need ideas/suggestions for the Shot of the Mark ability.
trelainex 01-17-08, 12:51 AM	I like your idea's, I just ripped mine out of Iron Kingdoms for my eberron campaign, but I might use the prc's you have.
Rekko 01-19-08, 12:53 PM	Ok, I have looked your PrCs. Here are some things you could do to make us understand better what you want to create. You should write for which class (or classes) the PrC is tyically intended too. What you want it to do. For example, the Eldritch Marksman might be some sort of Gun Mage that is able to enhance his spellgun and cast spells through it. But is it intended for wizards and sorcerer or for artificers or clerics or even bards who knows? (you know for sure :P) I'll wait for your answer before starting to critic their abilities. As for the new guns: Rope Gun: This gun does not fire bullets or raw force energy. It fires a rope animated by (the obvious) spell 'animate rope' which allows you to grapple, trip and disarm foes at a distance. (inspiration: Samus grapple move in Super Smash Bros.) Underwater Javelin Gun: the name says it all. Grappling Hook Launcher: the name says it all. Net Launcher: the name says it all. For the Grappling Hook and the Net Launcher, you could use the Artificer's Grenade Launcher with different ammunition (here, the grappling hook and the net) Lyrandar Gun: this gun fires 'firework' rockets that help adventurers indicating their position when rescued by airships or boats. It's name has been given after its most common users: the Lyrandar family is equipping their ships with it when going to Xen'drik. Rekko
Rekko 01-30-08, 09:34 PM	I was wandering if your work was advancing.
skrap-san 01-31-08, 02:38 AM	Mine is, I will be using mine as a plot hook in a campaign with my vacation players (this Easter) so i will be posting some new rules and fluff soon.
AlHazred 02-09-08, 12:14 AM	Guns dont belong in teh Eberron, go away n00b!1!11! :P Seriously, though, I wasn't around for the discussion about guns, and I don't understand why people have a problem with them. The guy (probably Cyran) on one of the first few pages of the Five Nations book clearly has a gun holstered at his belt. So, what the hell's the fuss? Anyway, in my game, I would avoid any mention (in any way, shape, or form) of any terms associated with real-world guns (nice justification of the "Bolt-Action" appellation, by-the-by). It's the unique Eberronese flavor to come up with the same thing powered by magic and give it an evocative name. It's not a "train," it's the "Lightning Rail." So, I wouldn't call them "Grenades," but rather "Incendiaries" or even "Blast-Flasks" or something. It's not a "Laser Sight" (shudder) but rather a "Guiding Light." On that last note, I will make mention of the arquebus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus); although it has something of a specific meaning in firearms history, I have used it for primitive firearms in fantasy campaigns before, where it carries a better ring to me than "rifle." A "Bolt-Lock Harquebus" is more Eberron-friendly than a "Bolt-Action Rifle" any day.
Half_Dragon_Infernal 03-09-08, 09:36 PM	Hi, I was just reading over this thread, and i like it. My change though is the flavor: I have the Sulatar tribe of drow develop it first, and then it is sort of stolen from them the same way with elemental binding. PC's get the quest to get the blueprints back from some Lhazaar pirates. :schemes: As the campaign develops, giant, expensive, rare, machine gun-like things are developed by cannith, and the Lhazaar, who managed to keep at least 1 set of blueprints, developed rifling. So Lhazaar get better basic guns, mainlanders get more advanced guns if they can pay the price. Also, more common variations for normal guns on the mainland include shotguns and of course, sniper attachments and a special gun that is enchanted with wind tunnel for snipers. :)
turalisj 03-10-08, 12:00 AM	*shakes head* I can see where this is going... Next we'll have huge-sized mechanized armor...:rolleyes:
UliahHafengrim 03-11-08, 01:40 PM	People argue ad nauseum about firearms, but most of their concern is the whether firearms stay crunchy even with Eberron Brand milk. The OP's story-based fluff reasoning sounds good enough for me. But I would like to point out that the gnomish inventor won't set out to making a "rifle" at first, since it isn't until later in the development of Eberron firearms that a long-barreled gun is created. The word rifle was derived from the "rifling" done to the barrel to help improve accuracy (by producing spin on the bullet). Now it's just become commonplace to call anything with a long barrel that shoots single bullets at long range a rifle, but that means interesting fluff write-ups have etymological anachronisms in them. The angle he has taken makes sense, as it magic-ifies the historical reasoning and development of firearms. They won't ever play the same role as magic in warfare, but not everyone has the chops to cast fireball or the ability to reliably Use Magic Device for an endless wand of Scorching Ray, so enchanted/modified crossbows. The naming conventions you've used can probably be revisited and Eberronified. The following is a link to someone who gathered the etymology of numerous weapons (most of his sources are also Googleable) and posted them all in a convenient table. http://www.alanharding.com/Etymology/etym_weapon.html Also, the ability to use "etymological anachronisms" in a sentence are the primary and secondary reasons for this post, outside of sharing my observations.
turalisj 03-11-08, 05:21 PM	Which brings up the question: can the various metals found in the DMg and assorted sources be rifled?
UliahHafengrim 03-11-08, 09:36 PM	I don't imagine why it'd be that difficult of a process. If Cannith artificers can make Warforged body slot magic items, rifling barrels of varied materials seems simple enough. And to the earlier poster who remarked on huge mechanized bodysuits: why bother? That's what Warforged Juggernauts are for. You don't have to worry about a squishy fleshling under the armor.
Cyber-Dave 03-13-08, 09:50 PM	Ok, so, I have been working on guns myself... I'm writing the quest that I plan to use as my first 4e quest in Eberron right now, and its all about the introduction of guns to the world. That being said, I came up with some new names for guns (to replace pistol and rifle) in the spirit of "the lightning rail, not the train." I called guns "casters," short for "fire-casters" or "spell-casters." Pistols are caster-wands, and rifles are caster-rods. Anyways, thats all I really have to add this discussion. In case you are intrested, here is how I envisioned the mechanics of a gun: It will have ammunition, it will not use gunpowder (per say). Guns will actually be called "casters" (short for spell-casters), pistols will be called wands, and rifles rods. So, there will be caster-wands, and caster-rods: their appearance will be much the same as standard early percussion cap and cartridge guns. Mechanically, each caster will have a "hammer." This hammer will have a magical symbol emblazoned on its cap. When this magical symbol strikes a "scroll" of the right type, it causes the scroll to cast a small spell that releases an explosive burst of energy. Next is the ammunition. This is the aspect of the guns that only House Cannith South knows how to create (for now). I'm thinking that my guns will jump right to cartridge style firearms (and skip all the steps before that) because it makes it easier to explain why nobody but Cannith can figure out how to make them. Anyways, each bullet pretty much contains a projectile tip, a casing, and a primer (as per real cartridges). The casing is filled with a mixture of ground eberron and khyber shards (and the khyber shards have to have once been used to bind a fire elemental). The primer is a small spell designed to activate when the symbol on the hammer violently strikes it. The result is the same as that of a real firearm, a small explosion that propels the projectile out along a barrel with violent force. I'm still trying to decide on the appearance of the first fire-arms. I'm thinking going straight to cartridge casing, because such casings can hide the components required to make the casters work, which makes it easier for Cannith to keep the method of their production a secret. Perhaps some magic traps might be placed on the cartridges themselves which cause them to destroy themselves if someone tries to take them apart. Otherwise, I was thinking the first casters (or firecasters) will pretty much be like a mix of early parlor pistols and the army pistols and rifles of the American civil war... so, basically, there would be two of each type. There would be a revolver pistol and a single internal pistol, and a revolver rifle and a single internal rifle. In each case, the single internals would deal more damage (but would have to be reloaded after one shot), and the revolvers would deal less damage, but could be fired six times before someone would have to reload them. Repeater-casters and magic tanks will be something that I save for "The Next War." I actually really like your "clips as wands" and "raw magic" idea. Originally I wanted to go with raw magic. However, I'm worried that 4e rods/wands will no longer have "charges," which means that the fluff would not work for a 4e game. So yea... love what you have done so far... I hope my input has been helpful in some shape or form.
tyr_13 03-14-08, 09:10 PM	I think the guns you describe are much too 'modern' sounding. My main advice would be to check out the gun types and abilities of the guns used at the battle of Sekigahara in Japan. They were surprisingly advanced but still 'sword age' in feel. You don't go from not so much as a cannon to cartridge rounds so quickly. Besides, the real question wouldn't be, "why would they make guns," but rather, "why haven't the guns started taking over?" It seems to me that most people in here have little idea what it takes to make a moder, rifled, gun. It takes advanced machining to make the rounds from even one hundred years ago, and no, that doesn't exist commonly in Eborron. It is an artisan system like that of the United States in the New Republic era (before the Antebellum Era). The analogy about, "if they can make warforged, then they could make guns," doesn't hold. First of all, they didn't make them from scratch because they were building upon knowledge from the Giants. Secondly, there are no two identical warforged, and for cartridge rounds to work you need identical barrel sizes, case sizes, and slug sizes. Rifling is very hard to do. Adamanite probably couldn't be rifled, although mithril might be able to be. No, bolts and arrows are not mass produced, they are produced in mass. That is a HUGE difference. I can fire an arrow two inches too short or five inches too long out of my bow, but I can't put a .22 mag in my 10/22 rifle. The tolerances between what will work for a gun and what will work for a bow/crossbow are orders of magnitude different. I'm not saying that you're doing bad here, but you are getting a little bit 'overlarge' if you get what I am saying. Guns should be more rare, more primitive, and more special if you use them. Otherwise there is no good reason why they haven't taken over the battlefield. Like I said, check out the guns from the unification of Japan. You can have paper cartridge rounds, scatter shot, sabot, bayonet, guns the fire in the rain, and all that from those types of firearms. The guns of the Saiga ninja would be worth a look too. But your guns sound too much like a Mouser or Garand.
Cyber-Dave 03-15-08, 12:31 PM	1) Do you have a link for guns from the unification of japan? 2) I really don't find it hard to believe that Eberronian culture can mass produce items. The cogs (in sharn) is a whole section of a city that is set up pretty much exactly like the industrial sector of a city during our (real world) industrial revolution. Indeed, Breland is described as mass producing weapons for sale. Note that during our industrial revolution, we have blast caps and cartridges. 3) Its not hard to believe that certain aspects of Eberronian culture would skip the "early phases" of technological advancement, and jump right to more advanced models, due to magic. The lightning rail is pretty much an electrical train... but where did steam powered trains go? Etc, etc, etc...
tyr_13 03-15-08, 01:47 PM	1) Do you have a link for guns from the unification of japan? 2) I really don't find it hard to believe that Eberronian culture can mass produce items. The cogs (in sharn) is a whole section of a city that is set up pretty much exactly like the industrial sector of a city during our (real world) industrial revolution. Indeed, Breland is described as mass producing weapons for sale. Note that during our industrial revolution, we have blast caps and cartridges. 3) Its not hard to believe that certain aspects of Eberronian culture would skip the "early phases" of technological advancement, and jump right to more advanced models, due to magic. The lightning rail is pretty much an electrical train... but where did steam powered trains go? Etc, etc, etc... 1) http://www.japaneseweapons.net/ 2) I would imagine they might cast cogs, but if your guns are made from cast parts, well, that wouldn't work too well and your barrels are going to be rather heavy, just like the old ones. I thought Breland produced masses of weapons, not mass produced weapons. Doesn't it say somewhere specifically that Eberron isn't an industrial age society? Besides that, no, cartridges weren't around until the 1850's and that is well into the second industrial revolution. Besides that, there was a long history with gun powder before firearms. In fact, looking at some old Chinese weapons might help too! 3) No, that does not follow. The lightening rail went through development, and they had it magic from the get go, so why would they make steam ones? Your magic versions of firearms are for the most part, pretty good. So, like steam engines, why under the rings would they even make mundane guns if they had the magic ones? Besides that, going to cartridges isn't skipping the 'early phases', it is skipping most every phase up till the current one. That would be like making the lightning rail equal the speed and power of a semi or big dieseal train, or the TGV. You skip wheel locks, flint locks, hammer caps, etc, to get to full metal cartridges. Besides all that there is the issue of game ballence. Guns to a lot of damage, and I've never been one to say that having them expensive is a very good solution. They should be expensive, hard to use, and rare. Obviously Eberron has some 'modern' elements, but those have been very well thought out for their implications to the culture and society. Now think about how the guns would change things. Obviously for your campeign that might be completely acceptable. If so, more power to you. I had an idea for real Final Fantesy style airship. Now, I don't even play in a game, but I still wanted it ballenced by, rarity, cost, difficulty of use, and a crazy gnome. When all else fails, blame a crazy gnome.
Cyber-Dave 03-15-08, 05:34 PM	1) Thank you for the link. They look neat. Visually, sort of like what I was imagining. I was actually a little more inspired by the "Japanese revolver" and "six barrel revolver" I found at this website here (they are guns from the same era): http://www.japanese-guns.com/ 2) I'm not sure I understand any of what you wrote here. I think what is throwing me off is your first sentence. You write "I would imagine they might cast cogs," but the cogs is a place in sharn... how do they cast a place? What do you mean? How is the meaning of this existence connected to the rest of what you wrote? That being said, I'll respond to the parts of number two that I did understand. I thought Breland produced masses of weapons, not mass produced weapons. I guess its a matter of interpretation. When I read the section on Breland in the core setting, it states that Breland has "heavy industry" and that they produce "relatively inexpensive arms and armor" which are among the nations major exports. This, to me, sounds like mass production. It also sounds like the reason why they are relatively cheap is the same reason why mass produced items are cheap in the real world. Certainly this is an interpretation, but its the one I prefer. What makes Eberron fun for me is that it feels like an industrial aged society, its just industrial through magic and not technology. Take that away, and Eberron becomes just another forgotten realms for me... and god I hate the realms. I've always been one for settings that don't feel like a medieval Europe. Which leads to this: Doesn't it say somewhere specifically that Eberron isn't an industrial age society? I certainly have not read that anywhere... everything seems very pointed towards it being an industrial age society, just through magic instead of technology. If it is written somewhere, I'm certainly going to ignore it (for the reasons I listed above)! Besides that, no, cartridges weren't around until the 1850's and that is well into the second industrial revolution. Besides that, there was a long history with gun powder before firearms. In fact, looking at some old Chinese weapons might help too! Cool. My bad. Sorry about that. I sometimes get my revolutions mixed up I guess... :P 3) I don't agree with you. I think it would follow. The key reason why I think it would follow is found in your response right here: The lightening rail went through development, and they had it magic from the get go, so why would they make steam ones? Exactly. There is no reason for Eberron's culture to have wheel locks, matchlocks, flint locks, or hammer caps. They don't need to start with burning matches or flint mechanisms. They have the means to create an explosion already: magic. Why would they bother going with such devices when magic already exists? Just like the lighting rail has no steam phase, there is no need for such phases in my Eberron's gun smithing techniques. But, you said that... Your magic versions of firearms are for the most part, pretty good. So, like steam engines, why under the rings would they even make mundane guns if they had the magic ones? Which makes me confused. What are you getting at? Are we saying the same thing and misunderstanding each other? I'm basically saying, they have magic. With magic they can make an explosion. Through magic, all the components of the explosion don't need to be separate. As a result, I don't see the need for a "magic gun" that requires loading of the sort necessary to fire a flint-lock (for example). You just put the bullet in, and pull the trigger. This, to me, means "cartridge firearm." Is there something in this statement that you are disagreeing with? Besides that, going to cartridges isn't skipping the 'early phases', it is skipping most every phase up till the current one. That would be like making the lightning rail equal the speed and power of a semi or big dieseal train, or the TGV. You skip wheel locks, flint locks, hammer caps, etc, to get to full metal cartridges. See above. I'm not saying that the first generation of guns are going to be perfect. The magic will still be imperfect. Later generations might have better magic that allows for faster flying bullets (or whatever). Or, in the case of the "wand ammunition" used by the original poster, will simply be stronger. I'm just saying, they don't need to load the powder, pack the powder, load the ball, etc. They just stick the magic ammunition in, and pull the trigger. Besides all that there is the issue of game ballence. Guns to a lot of damage, and I've never been one to say that having them expensive is a very good solution. They should be expensive, hard to use, and rare. Obviously Eberron has some 'modern' elements, but those have been very well thought out for their implications to the culture and society. Now think about how the guns would change things. Obviously for your campeign that might be completely acceptable. If so, more power to you. I had an idea for real Final Fantesy style airship. Now, I don't even play in a game, but I still wanted it ballenced by, rarity, cost, difficulty of use, and a crazy gnome. When all else fails, blame a crazy gnome. I'm writing my "guns in Eberron" for my 4e game, so I don't really have mechanics set aside. If I were to do it for a 3.5 edition Eberron game, I would use the gun stats found in d20 Past. thats pretty much 2d6 for a revolver pistol, 2d8 for a single shot pistol, 2d8 for a revolver rifle, 2d10 for a single shot rifle. Honestly, the balance thing falls on deaf ears (for me). Melee weapons with a nice strength score will compare to these numbers quite nicely. Those swords will also be a lot cheaper. Go for more expansive swords, with magic enchantment, and you are talking base damage in a similar die range. The original posters weapons do even less damage, so I REALLY don't see a balance problem there... Which brings me to the final point. You mention rarity, cost, and difficulty of use. Thats exactly the sort of thing I am trying to avoid. You see, as I mentioned, what makes me love Eberron is its "magically modern" feel. When I run my first 4e game, the first quest will feature my characters getting caught up in a bunch of political intrigue involving these brand new casters (which up until that time have not been a feature of the world). With that first quest, I plan to have events transpire that end in casters become a common, and new, feature of Eberron. Its an intentional effort, on my part, to make Eberron feel even a little more Modern, because quite frankly, thats what I like. My only goal in doing so is this: I want to keep the fully armored melee warrior as a feature of the world. And it still will be... I'm not including repeating casters, which means that melee and charge style tactics will still be a staple of combat (its machine guns that made melee obsolete. Until that point in time, melee cavalry was still a feature of war). And armor is not going to be made obsolete, as I plan on having magical armor stop any of the "armor piercing" qualities I might give this weapon, if I even give it any at all. If bullets are likely to still bounce of armor, armor is still going to remain in play.
Half_Dragon_Infernal 03-15-08, 06:13 PM	Cyber-Dave I would actually reccomend making machine guns big, monstrous, rare, and expensive as a lightning rail. I would say only dreadhold and areas that need a lot of protection get them.
Cyber-Dave 03-15-08, 07:18 PM	Thats not a bad idea. When my game features the invention of the first repeater caster, thats how I will incorporate it.