Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jello_Ninja 11-26-07, 04:56 PM	This is my first thread so I'm kinda new at this, but this is how we used "guns" in my Eberron games. 1: handguns in my games use wands of various calibers instead of elementals or bullets (magic missile and fireball being the most favorite) with a trigger that works similar to the wizards hand crossbow(you know the ones shaped like a hand) thing from the arms and equipmet guide. 2: rifles work the same way but use staves instead of wands. 3?: I was also think of useing a gun smilar to Jean Starwinds caster gun from Outlaw Star but didnt know how.:confused: Any ideas well help. Both of these ideas work really well in low or high level games it just depends on what spells are available for the wand and staves. So if you like these or dont right back I need feedback. Thanks
skrap-san 11-26-07, 06:50 PM	I have been considering the same solution, a bit inspired by the warforged part that lets you store a wand in your arm. And I to reached the solution of having wands and stave's as ammunition. But there is a few things you should consider, First of it should be a few limits to the spells that need to be stored in the... lets call them "spell-slingers". I don't see a problem with a staff of fireballs, or wand for that sake. But if anyone can use it, I would consider calling it out of balance. Or if someone could range attack healing spells with it. So my suggestion is as follows. Only single target spells, and scalable damage equals to other spells of its spell level you invest in your ammunition. (I think following the progression of inflict minor wounds etc would be a nice one). Scale the price for level and how many charges you have. Give the option of different energy types, fire, water, electricity etc. Personally I'm all for the bang that the gun makes, it is just cool in my head, but I cant really find a good reason to keep it. Unless you base it on lightnings or something. Hope it helps.
Jello_Ninja 11-26-07, 10:30 PM	Thanks for those ideas they help, but about the healing spells in gun form we always went with offensive spells only. And yes the charges and spells were very limited so as not to over power the game, they are also quite expensive so that not everyone has one my pcs had to save there pennies to get one.
skrap-san 11-27-07, 02:18 AM	Yeah, that is my idea also, how much did you sett as the base price of the actual gun? I'm thinking along the lines of 2000gp (rifle one) for the gun alone, then 750 for a level 1 round of spell level 1 ammo.
Jello_Ninja 11-27-07, 11:16 AM	i usually just went with the price of like scrolls or the wands of the same spwl from the dmg, but I suppose a set price + the price of the spell would make them harder to get and more worth while. Oh and I always required at least a few ponts in Use Magic Items so that not everone gets them at like first level. p.s. if you ever saw outlaw star help me with the caster gun idea I still cant igure it out
skrap-san 11-27-07, 12:44 PM	Sorry I never saw it, my anime references for guns are mostly from trigun, hellsing and final fantasy unlimited. That summoning gun is insane. Now for gun/spell slinger mechanincs my sugestion is as follows: General feat [Profiency Spell slinger] Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, use magic device 5 ranks. Benefit: Proficiency with the spell slinger and able to take 10 on use magic device checks to use the weapon even when stressed or disturbed. Special: People without this feat has to roll normal use magic device checks at a +10 higher modifier than usual. And has a increased chance of backfires (treat both a natural 1 and 2 as a fumble). And one is not able to make several shots due to high base attack bonus. Spell slinger: This weapon consists of a metal pipe attached to a wooden stock shaped for resting against ones shoulder for better aim. The weapon itself uses stave's that is charged with magic energy for delivering damage over a distances of preferably 100ft. Each charge of ammunition contains 50 charges, when all charges are spent the staff turns completely black and are rendered totally unusable. Several different types of ammunition can be bought increasing damager changing the type of damage one does. Reloading the spell slinger takes 1 minute, and firing takes a standard action. All ranged attack feats apply to the spell slinger including rapid reload. To fire the gun a person needs to overcome a use magic device check of 15+2 pr spell level of the ammunition used. Other than that a spell slinger works as a normal ranged weapon in terms of hitting targets. Mechanics base price: 2000gp Range: 100ft (max 5 range increments). Damage: Piercing Critical: x3 Reload time: full round Ammunition: effective spell level: 1 Price: 75gp damage: 1d8 charges: 10 faint conjuration. effective spell level: 2 Price: 150gp damage: 2d8 charges: 10 faint conjuration. effective spell level: 3 Price: 300gp damage: 3d8 charges: 10 faint conjuration. etc etc etc. Right now I'm considering making the damage just like the inflict spells (1d8+1 etc). And I'm not sure about the price, it seems steep enough but if one is to base it on wand prices it seems it is way to low. Especially considering one has a effective range at 100ft. So any suggestions? Something I have forgotten?
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 11-27-07, 12:55 PM	I like the idea of alchemist/magic guns in the game. However I always think it can be very unbalancing issue. I preffer the "elemental" magic bullets that do one kind of damage and probably small damage at that. There are a few reasons for this. You can make the bullets expensive. Even if it 1g per bullet, think about that hit to the PC or common persons coinpurse. They will think before they go all out on buying guns.) Only house Cannith can craft the guns. This makes the device used for shooting them very very expensive. However they are all considered high quality or better. Make the materials used exotic and each gun is completely unique. Then you can charge 800g total cost for masterwork qaulity, PC will probably not like you, but once again any kingdom will think twice before using such items in mass. No kingdom would like to lose a battle where 500 of those bad boys where used (that would roughly be 400,000 gold) Chance of Failure. Randomly the gun can misfire. Not good for the user. You are on your own. Pretty much you are not going to find magic bullets or guns laying around. These are weapons new to the setting. They haven't had a chance to be in ruins or other things like that. Personally this gives me an idea on a new NPC I may put later on in my game (can anyone say Vash?) Rememberance. They will always remember the NPC "gun-slinger". The reason I don't like the wand idea is simple, it makes it much more easier to come across, as well as use. Wands run rampant in Eberron and you can pretty much get your hands on any low level wand with ease. So if a "wand-shooter" existed it would probably become common place pretty soon. And Cannith would work day and night to make it common place. All around the ideas should make it uncommon for people to use. Make sure the damage is pretty decebt, especially on a misfire. For instance it always does alot more damage. Give the players a chance by allowing a Reflex save to keep from blowing off half their head. PS: Skrap I like the feat idea. Seems fairly balanced.
skrap-san 11-27-07, 02:32 PM	To quote Moss from the IT-crowd "I am a giddy goat." this is why I love this forum, the constructive criticism. 1. You can make the bullets expensive. My idea is that the ammunition sticks are not wands, they are specially made and therefore are useless anywhere else than in a spellslinger. Wands would soon make the spellslinger unbalanced. 2. Only house Cannith can craft the guns. My idea was that only a handful guns exists in the world. We are talking five or six. but this is fluff only, and i haven't really worked out a story for them yet. But house Cannith is most likely behind it. 3. Chance of Failure. the failure is nothing more than that of a wand that you fumble on. On a fumble there is a 10% chance that the spell backfires on you and your weapon need a repair. But remember that one with the feat can take 10 on these checks, making the missfire a debate only when one wish to fire higher level ammunition than your take would 10 let you. 4. You are on your own. Indeed, i would assume one would need a craft magic items feat to craft the staffs needed, and of course you would need experience. But then again first one would need the plans to make them. So no, this is nothing that just lies around to pick up. If it should be anything, it should be a plot device. 5. Remembrance. I have the coolest PC idea ever, but I'm always ending up the DM so it has to end up as an NPC. I'll tell you later, when I got the time. Note that most of these things are Fluff oriented, and should be up to the individual DM. And that most of my replies is my personal fluff and so it should be refitted to fit your personal campaign. I'm sure I have forgotten something again, but I trust someone will point it out.
Jello_Ninja 11-27-07, 03:23 PM	Elementals bullets and the such are cool but everything in eberron is all about the elementals and im sick of: the lightning rail, airships, weapons and armor, plus sail boats and in Keith Bakers Eberron novels the drow use fire elemental powered hover? craft to get around. Thats my rant for the day. I also agree with skrap the feat is nice i like it plus one time use only "wand" and "staff" cartridges are a good idea plus being that they have a 2000 gp + the cost of ammo price tag should keep them from being to main stream. And remember if you like elementals use them this is just for fun
skrap-san 11-27-07, 04:48 PM	yay recognition! And I must agree with you Jello_Ninja I'm a bit tired of everything being about elemental bound this, elemental bound that. Now I did try to make a gun concept that was an elemental bound gun that shot specially crafted dragonshards. And i was thinking 1gp pr shot. But this makes more sense to me, so I'm going for that one. And as I have already stated, I consider these things plot devices. But they are wicked cool plot devices I might add. Now i promised twelvedrunkenmonkeyz some fluff, and here it is: In the entire world there were only produced ten spellslingers, developed by house Cannith during the end of the last war most of them were placed in testing facilities that were lost during the day of mourning. But a few guns made it out before the catastrophe hit the house of making. One is said to be given to the archmage of Moongrave university, but the gun was lost when he apparently went mad and killed his wife, a elven cleric of the sovereign host, and his only child. Roumors have it that the son is still alive and wanders the world with the gun on his back living an adventurers life. The second known gun was offered to the gnomes of Zilargo as a thank for their help in crafting this fantastic weapon. This is also the only gun known to be built in scale for a small person. The last known gun is only known since its fate is whats known about it. The gun was aboard a Lyrandar airship that was shot down during the war, it crash landed somewhere in the border between the Shadow marches and the Eldeen reaches. There is also a rumor that a crafting schematic was stored with this gun. This schematic would then be the only one that is known to have survived the day of mourning. This rumor is also backed up by the fact that all three fractions of house Cannith has people out looking for the ship. But the hoiuse is also probing the mournland searching for anything that might grant it a sure footing again. And this spell slinger if researched some more could grant the house the very thing it needs to secure its footing in this war torn world. And this is why i haven't made a one handed spell slinger yet, not enough research. But its not that hard to convert, just sett down the price about 500gp and lower the damage to d6 and viola.
Watsyurname529 11-27-07, 07:22 PM	Interesting solutions to firearms/guns and they have given me some ideas on how to modify them to my games. I have a different solution to firearms and here it is if you want to use it, modify it, etc. Here is my solution. The rifles are basically crossbows that have been modified to shoot harder and easier. 104. Artificer's Bolt-Action Rifle Price: 1,200gp Body Slot: -- (held) Caster Level: 3rd Aura: Faint; (DC 17) Transmutation Activation: Standard (manipulation) Weight: 2 lbs. This interesting weapon looks like a crossbow without the arms and a long barrel. It has a few runes along the barrel and on the trigger. This is a weapon that is an alternative to the crossbow. It uses bolts and fires them as a heavy crossbow (1d10 Damage 19-20/x2 Crit), but only takes a move action to reload which provokes AoO's. The gun can use magic bolts and/or can be enchanted like any other weapon; treat as a crossbow. Weapon is considered masterwork (+1 Attack). Need to be proficient with a crossbow to use, and the non-proficency penalty is -2 instead of -4. All feats that apply to a crossbow, applies to the rifle. Lore: A Gnome Artificer named Zyash wanted to be more useful in combat but his small light crossbow didn't do much damage. He wanted more power but still the accuracy and easy to use of the crossbow. So he then modified the crossbow and with some magic created the bolt-action rifle. Even though the bolt-action rifle is much better than the standard crossbow, the crossbow is still more widely used. Prereqs: Craft Wonderous Item, Launch Bolt (SpC 130) Cost to Create: 600gp, 48 XP, 2 Days 105. Artificer's Semi-Auto Rifle Price: 2,000 Body Slot: -- (held) Caster Level: 4th Aura: Faint; (DC 17) Transmutation Activation: Standard (manipulation) Weight: 3 lbs. This looks like the bolt-action rifle but it has a clip of bolts and a small lever to reload very fast. This functions like a bolt-action rifle (see above) except this has a clip of bolts. The rifle holds one clip at a time which holds 8 bolts. Reloading the gun with a clip is a free action that provokes AoO's. Replacing the clip is a standard action that provokes AoO's. Weapon is considered Masterwork (+1 Attack). Lore: Zyash, the creater of the bolt-action rifle, was hired to make a repeating version of his rifle for a weathly adventurer. He wanted it to be like a repeating crossbow with the reload speed as such. Zyash modified his orginal model and made the Semi-Auto. Prereqs: Craft Wonderous Item, Launch Bolt (SpC 130) Cost to Create: 1,000gp, 80 XP, 2 Days 106. Artificer's Grenade Launcher Price: 1,000 Body Slot: -- (held) Caster Level: 3th Aura: Faint; (DC 17) Transmutation Activation: Standard (manipulation) Weight: 2 lbs. This also looks like the rifle although it has a wider barrel for fitting bigger things such as alchemist fire. This weapon allows you to fire fine-sized splash weapons much futher than you could throw them. As a standard action you can fire the projectile up to 110ft. It's a move action to reload, which provokes AoO's. You can fire things such as Alchemist Fire, Frost, Spark, Acid, Thunderstones, Holy water etc. Need to be proficient in the crossbow to use. Any feats related to splash-weapons apply. Lore: Zyash, the creater of the bolt-action rifle, also wanted to fire splash-weapons much farther than he could throw them--which wasn't very far to begin with. So he went about modifing his bolt-action rifle and came up with his grenade-launcher. Prereqs: Craft Wonderous Item, Launch Item (SpC 130) Cost to Create: 500gp, 40 XP, 1 Day Although, looking at my stuff and the stuff here. I think what I'm going to do is combine the two and create "Spellslingers" (both as a PrC and guns) for my game that are better than the rifles. Also, looking at my rifles, I probably should drop the price some.
Jello_Ninja 11-27-07, 09:12 PM	wow im glad i did this at first i had second thoughts, but now im glad. you guys are amazing and skrap you have done a fantastic job i think im going to use that feat as the requirement and then its just about perfect. O and just for thought think about ranged wall spells "behold my wall of fire appearing 100' away inside the enemies battle lines":schemes: So keep those creative juices flowing
skrap-san 11-28-07, 05:14 PM	I am glad you like it Jello_Ninja. And Watsyurname529 I'm glad you feel my ideas can be used. And now that you mention it, it would be cool with a specialist class that used guns, only problem is that my own fluff don't really give it out as an option. But I would love to see what you will come up with, and if you need it id be more than happy to lend a hand.
Jello_Ninja 11-28-07, 05:41 PM	I like the idea of a oh i don't know lets say "gun mage" i think it would be neat; but i think its already been done one of the other gun posts talks about a book that has a similar class.
Watsyurname529 11-28-07, 06:48 PM	I am glad you like it Jello_Ninja. And Watsyurname529 I'm glad you feel my ideas can be used. And now that you mention it, it would be cool with a specialist class that used guns, only problem is that my own fluff don't really give it out as an option. But I would love to see what you will come up with, and if you need it id be more than happy to lend a hand. The Spellslinger/Gun Mage PrC would be based off more of the fluff I would give to it, as the guns are not as rare as you made them. I would make it that the knowledge is around, but only to those who seek it out and find a way to make/obtain the guns. So they wouldn't be common (or even uncommon), but not super, super rare. I'll get to making the PrC a bit later seeing as I have a bunch of AP Euro History notes to take.
Rekko 11-28-07, 10:40 PM	One of my ideas I wrote on this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13629035) Pistol: This weapon looks like a hand crossbow except that the bow part of the weapon has been removed and a special wand chamber has been added in the crafting process. As you can guess, this weapon doesn't fire bolts. It instead fires raw magical energy as if using the Cull Wand Essence feat. The pistol's ammunitions come from the charges of the stored wand, and its damage is determined with the level of the spell held in the wand. Pistol weilders need to note a few things before using the weapon. First, you need some exotic weapon proficiency in hand crossbows or firearms. Second, you need a wand stored in the pistol, and note that you can't use the spell of the wand while it is stored in the pistol. Third, damage is the same as Cull Wand Essence (MoE p.46) but is also considered magic and piercing for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Fourth, the attack can't be stopped by Spell resistance (as in the Cull Wand Essence description). Fifth, firing takes five charges off the wand, thus allowing you to fire 10 times out of a fully charged wand. Sixth and last, targets protected by the Sheild spell consider damaged as if the spell of the wand was one level lower. If the wand was level 1, now considered level 0, it deals no damage. Requirements: Wand Chamber improvement, Cull Wand Essence, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, (Craft Wand?), (Magic Missile?) Cost: hum... ??? Hook: Say hello to my boomstick! http://www.redriverrenegades.com/CLASSIC_FRENCH_DUELING_PISTOL_copy.gif Also look at this other thread. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=937023)
Jello_Ninja 11-28-07, 11:09 PM	Again these are all good ideas and i think ill use bits and peices of each one
skrap-san 11-29-07, 12:39 AM	I know of the two threads. And I got allot of info and ideas from them. Now in hindsight i would change the amount of charges in my ammo wands from 100 to 10. and drop the price down to 10% (from 750 to 75 etc). This is so A) It seem less expensive. B) You will have to recharge more often, and then making the rapid reload feat more worth it. I would also put in a drop in the reload time from a minute to a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity (a move action with rapid reload).
Darth_Serenous 12-10-07, 09:24 PM	My version is simpler. Its uses the weapons from d20 Modern (I got Weapon Locker) but the price is equal to Wealth check x 150 in gold pieces. This is not including the liscence and the ammo. The weapon is working and has the shape of a normal firearm, but the weapon is incrusted with dragonshards. The bullets are metal very small arrows shooted by the fire of the dragon shard. The damage is considered piercing and fire. Some weapons can be made with blue dragonshards. The damage is now piercing and cold. A Desert Eagle would cost 2700gp. Bullets could cost double the arrows' price. I think its balanced and it shouldn't be considered as a OMG magic weapon of doom.
Yami 12-10-07, 11:33 PM	Another balancing thought - old guns took quite a while to load and fire. If you've got a 5 round reloading sequence, during which you can't fight to get your gun ready to fire again, that's a pretty significant balancing effect.
skrap-san 12-11-07, 02:39 AM	And a pretty big, I don't want to touch that with a five foot stick policy. At least in my games since few battles takes so long. But it would be a great battle opener if it had decent damage.
Yami 12-12-07, 12:02 PM	Oh, definitely. But battles were like that, historically. Armies that had firearms had to have 2 or 3 divisions of their troops, one firing while the other one or two groups reloaded. Firearms were like that for hundreds of years. The loaded gun would be a great opening move, but if you didn't kill whatever you were up against...you'd better have a backup weapon! But it's balanced if the "gun" does what a gun does in real life - a shot could very easily instantly kill the most experienced combatant - and even minor wounds from a gun can be quite deadly. If the "gun" in eberron decreases in it's deadliness, then the penalty "reload" time could also probably safely be lowered. Hehe, you could even have fun with it, creating feats the cut reloading time down, or the like. :)
TheBlindBlade 12-12-07, 10:30 PM	Hi all! I'm one of the players in Jello_Ninjas' game. I'm glad the "spellslinger" Idea is getting some feedback. An alternative to the spellslinger that I would like to pitch is a normal musket with magic gunpowder. The idea is taken form Joel Rosenberg’s "Guardians of the Flame" books. The powder is basically steam in a powder form. The firing system is sort of like a squirt gun. The water is forced into the powder chamber and activates the powder. The powder turns into super heated steam in seconds and the pressure inside the gun pushes the bullet out of the barrel. I'm not sure what spells would be used to MAKE the powder, but the process would be rather costly. Those who are concerned about game balance with firearms can rest easy as well. Think about it, who is crazy enough to carry an excess of explosive powder that activates when in contact with water? If the player isn't careful with storage they'll be toast the first time it rains. So the trick is to carry enough to make the weapon effective without the threat of being blown to bits in a rainstorm, and if your still concerned about balance then you can use the option Yami posed. Although I'd probably cut the loading time down to three steps or so. OK my random rant is done. If you like the idea then add to it, if not well..........don't use it.
skrap-san 12-13-07, 02:33 AM	I like the inspiration it gives. I am currently working on a edit of the gun so that it fires bullet shaped dragonshards. I just have to figure out what elemental to use in the binding, and some other things. I am thinking of storm elemental.
Jello_Ninja 12-13-07, 11:35 AM	Im glad people are posting again and that my friends are finally on so keep the ideas flowing there all good:D
skrap-san 12-13-07, 02:39 PM	The Shardslinger: This is my alternative to the spellslinger which i posted earlier in this thread. General feat [Profiency Shardslinger] Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, use magic device 5 ranks. (don't know for sure about this one yet) Benefit: Proficiency with the spell slinger and able to take 10 on use magic device checks to use the weapon even when stressed or disturbed. Special: People without this feat has to roll normal use magic device checks at a +10 higher modifier than usual. And has a increased chance of backfires (treat both a natural 1 and 2 as a fumble). And one is not able to make several shots due to high base attack bonus. Riffle: This projectile weapon fires specially crafted and cut dragonsshards. It has a bound storm elemental (MM3)in its metallic tube, and it uses its powers to propel the projectile. The shards can be infused with magic energy in the same manners normal ammunition can. The gun can also be enhanced with magic the same way a normal weapon can. Note that A) the weapon is a masterwork already so it has a +1 to hit. B) it has a bound elemental in it so if it is magically enhanced it already counts as having a +1 bonus for all such effects. Cost: Rifle: 1000gp 10 rounds of amunition: 20gp Damage: 1d12 critical: x3 Reload time: Standard action Basically this is almost a complete rip of from the Renaissance firearm pg145 DMG. With minor fluff added, to fit it to Eberron. I felt that the spellslinger was a good idea. But it had some flaws, especial the ammunition part, I'm not saying this one is perfect either but now its out there at least. Bear in mind that the old fluff carry over to this one, so there is only 10 of them in the world. So any suggestions?
Yami 12-13-07, 04:04 PM	Definitely keep the name "Riffle" as opposed to rifle. In fact, I may steal that name. Hehe!
skrap-san 12-14-07, 01:44 AM	Definitely keep the name "Riffle" as opposed to rifle. In fact, I may steal that name. Hehe! Hehe feel free to do so.
IMAL 12-21-07, 02:02 AM	Along the lines of the Shard Slinger, I was thinking of something similar to the Needler (See: Halo). I was about to post some ideas on a Needler-type weapon, but the Shard slinger beat me to the punch. However, instead of Dragonshards, my Needler would use psionic crystals launched via some mechanism similar in function to two like poles of a pair of magnets repelling each other. Hey, it's psionics... who knows.
skrap-san 12-21-07, 03:03 AM	well I could see it being developed in Sarlona by the Rieidrans or the inspired to be more precise. And when it comes to explaining how it does what it does I personally think "hey its magic/psionic" should be sufficient as long as its balanced game wise.
curtis_ownby 12-27-07, 12:17 PM	Caster Gun - Exotic Weapon Damage: See caster shell Range:100ft. type:see caster shell A Caster Gun is a major schemas(see minor schemas MoE pg.122) that can cast the spell stored within a caster shell. It is powered by a wand of read magic which enters the spell that is within a caster shell into the caster gun which then cast the spell. Any one can use a caster, there is not need to make a Use Magic Device check, and one does not even need to be a caster to use it. A spell casted by a caster gun uses the caster gun range instead of the spells range. A Caster Shell also know as a shard scroll is an attuned Eberron shard with a spell scribed into it. The price caster shell is caster level X spell level X 25gp and then the price a auttuned Eberron shard(ECS pg.265) is added to that. The Aureon's Spellshard ECS pg.265. I think this is what you are after, if not tell me I have another ideal how it can be done.;) Have fun!:D
turalisj 12-28-07, 12:51 AM	What about having a weapons that is like the Zat gun from SG1 or a Jaffa staff?
curtis_ownby 12-28-07, 12:09 PM	Make a staff with a wand chamber(Dungeonscape pg.34) and take the Cull Wand Essence feat.(MoE pg.46) Now any time the party gets a wand that they where going to sell you can take it and make good use of it.:teach: You could make a magic staff that used the feat for you on a command word.:plotting: Jaffa staff: This +1 staff has a wand chamber, when a wand is in the wand chamber the staff can shot a ray of magic like the feat Cull Wand Essence was used with the wand in the wand chamber. Faint transmutation CL 5; Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor,Cull Wand Essence. Price:5,700gp