Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Psynister 04-21-07, 01:13 PM	Let me first say that I am 100% against firearms being in an Eberron campaign setting. Let me next say that I am 100% for the creation of any magical item for any reason, to serve any purpose, whether it receives the chance of seeing time in an actual game or not. So, without any further putting it off, here are the "guns" (and "mines/grenades") that I have created based on the world of Eberron, for the sake of pleasing all those who tirelessly seek them here: Weapon Name | Cost | Base Spell | Range | Damage | Targets | Damage Type | Saving Throw --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- B.A.D. (Bound Acidic Devices) A-1 Acid Spear 2250 gp Acid Arrow 35 ft 2d4* Single Acid none A-2 Acid Sphere 188 gp Acid Slash 35 ft 1d3 Single Acid none T.A.D. (Tactical Advantage Devices) ***These are all single-use items*** G-1 Grease Ball 75 gp Grease 30 ft --- 10' cube none Ref (avoid) GB-2 Laughing Gas 900 gp Hideous Laughter 30 ft --- 5' radius none Will (negate) GB-3 Knockout Gas 75 gp Sleep 30 ft --- 10' radius none Will (negate) GB-4 Stink Cloud 1125 gp Stinking Cloud 30 ft Nausea 20' radius none Fort (negate) H-1 Binder 1350 gp Hold Person 30 ft --- Single none Will (negate) LB-1 Flash-Blind 2700 gp Blind/Deaf 30 ft Blind 5' radius none Fort (negate) SB-1 Deaf Sphere 2700 gp Blind/Deaf 30 ft Deaf 5' radius none Fort (negate) SB-2 Stun Sphere 750 gp Sound Burst 30 ft 1d8+Stun 10' radius none Fort (stun) M.U.D. (Magical Undead Destroyers) D-1 Disrupter 188 gp Disrupt Undead 35 ft 1d6 Single Positive none S-1 Scorcher 6750 gp Searing Light 35 ft 6d6 Single Positive none W.F. (Wind Force) M1 Force Bolt 375 gp Magic Missile 35 ft 1d4+1 Single Force none M2 Force Bolt 1125 gp Magic Missile 35 ft 2d4+2 Single Force none Wind Force (1 use) 3375 gp Control Winds 30 ft 2d6 + Trip 40' radius Force Fort (trip) E.D.D.I. (Elemental Damage-Dealing Infusions) FP-1 Slinger 375 gp Produce Flame 35 ft 1d6+1 Single Fire none FP-2 Slinger 1125 gp Produce Flame 35 ft 1d6+3 Single Fire none FP-3 Slinger 1875 gp Produce Flame 35 ft 1d6+5 Single Fire none FH-1 Flamer 188 gp Burning Hands 35 ft 1d4 Single Fire Ref (1/2) FH-2 Flamer 563 gp Burning Hands 35 ft 3d4 Single Fire Ref (1/2) FH-3 Flamer 438 gp Burning Hands 35 ft 5d4 Single Fire Ref (1/2) FS-1 Crossbow 2250 gp Scorching Ray 35 ft 4d6 Single Fire none FB-1 Burst Shot 1688 gp Fireball 35 ft 3d6 Single Fire Ref (1/2) FB-2 Burst Shot 3375 gp Fireball 35 ft 6d6 Single Fire Ref (1/2) CF-1 Crossbow 188 gp Ray of Frost 35 ft 1d3 Single Cold none EB-1 Thunder Spear 1688 gp Lightning Bolt 35 ft 3d6 Single Electric none EB-2 Thunder Spear 2250 gp Lightning Bolt 35 ft 4d6 Single Electric none EB-3 Thunder Spear 3375 gp Lightning Bolt 35 ft 6d6 Single Electric none EG-1 Scrambler 375 gp Shocking Grasp 5 ft 1d6 Single Electric none EG-2 Scrambler 1125 gp Shocking Grasp 5 ft 3d6 Single Electric none EG-3 Scrambler 1875 gp Shocking Grasp 5 ft 5d6 Single Electric none R.E.D.D.I. (Radius Elemental Damage-Dealing Infusions) ***These are all single-use items*** FH-4 Flamer 188 gp Burning Hands 30 ft 1d4 15' cone Fire Ref (1/2) FH-5 Flamer 563 gp Burning Hands 30 ft 3d4 15' cone Fire Ref (1/2) FH-6 Flamer 938 gp Burning Hands 30 ft 5d4 15' cone Fire Ref (1/2) FE-1 Explosion 2813 gp Explosive Rune Special 6d6 10' radius Fire Ref (1/2) FT-1 Ambush 1875 gp Fire Trap Special 1d4+5 5' radius Fire Ref (1/2) FB-1 Fireball 1688 gp Fireball 30 ft 3d6 20' radius Fire Ref (1/2) FB-2 Fireball 2250 gp Fireball 30 ft 4d6 20' radius Fire Ref (1/2) FB-3 Fireball 3375 gp Fireball 30 ft 6d6 20' radius Fire Ref (1/2) SB-1 Shatter 750 gp Shatter 30 ft 2d6 5' radius Sonic Fort (1/2) SB-2 Shatter 1500 gp Shatter 30 ft 4d6 5' radius Sonic Fort (1/2) SB-3 Shatter 2250 gp Shatter 30 ft 6d6 5' radius Sonic Fort (1/2) What you make these things look like is up to you. If you want it to look like a gun/rifle/grenade, then it looks like a gun/rifle/grenade, if you want it to be a wand, then it's a want, if you want a ring, it's a ring, if you think it should be a fuzzy pink bunny you pull out of your hat, then that's what it is! Descriptions can add a good deal of flavor and fluff to your character, but it has no added value as far as mechanics go, so I couldn't care less what you make the things look like. The ones here that are not noted as being "single-use" items are, of course, able to me used multiple times. Now, I have not sat down and tried to decide exactly how frequently I want these things to be able to be used per day, or if they should be fed by charged, or what. This is something I think might be better left up to the DM. If you're going to allow these to be used in your games, then how frequently do you want your characters to be throwing them out there? Do you want to allow them to be used as normal weapons that can be fired off every round? Do you want them to have X/day uses? Should they all come with X number of charges and be wasted when they're done? Should they be powered by a dragonshard (or something else) and have X uses before the shard is wasted and not work until you buy another one? My purpose here was to offer an alternative to using explosive powerder and lead. Having just wands gives you just that, a wand. Even if it's shaped like a gun and carried in a similarly shaped leather sheath on your belt, you've still got just a wand. I think if gun-like weapons were psuedo-mass produced, then they would have done so in a way similar to how it was done in the real world with different companies competing with multiple makes/models to suite the needs of the customers. War was the playing field, so versatility and ease of use was the product to make. So, tactical weapons were developed by means of area effect items. Decent damage at a reasonable range was great, so EDDI and the like were developed. Karnnathi armies of undead came about, so the MUD were developed and used by a group of guys that called themselves MUD-slingers. Just meeting a need/desire gives you nothing more than a set of rules/mechanics that really don't have a place, but could fit in if you use your imagination. If you throw in that imagination from the get-go, and use it to meet those needs and desires, then you've actually got something that can find its place in the game. "Hey, we've got trains! Now we need some gun-slingin' cowboys to go 'ijack it!" Well, I'm sure you do, but lets at least try to do it with a little more flavor and an honest effort to have it fit fully into the setting, not just by the materials used, but by what's going on in the world of Eberron. Note: This is something that I whipped up almost a year ago and just never got around to posting. The titles above each section (B.A.D., M.U.D., T.A.D., W.F., etc) are the equivalent of the companies making them, and the numbers in front of the "gun" names are the model numbers. So, a 357 pistol would be similar to using an FS-1 or an EB-3. More than one person has figured out the crafting of these things, and so there are different types, different models, and they are put to different uses. And, of course, there are a good many others that could yet be created. I don't know exactly what formula I used now in the generation of their prices, but I would imagine it was from the guidelines in the DMG. Not 100% sure on that though since it's been so long.
Nerdicus 04-21-07, 02:34 PM	Way to go LP! I've been waiting to see your complete list here on the boards. Nicely done.
Lord Psynister 04-21-07, 07:28 PM	Come on, who wants to use a Colt 45 when you can bust out an EDDI FS1!?!? ;)
korcheck 04-21-07, 07:48 PM	Yes please, I'll take on of each. :D
Lord Psynister 04-21-07, 08:33 PM	Yes please, I'll take on of each. :D That'll be 64,869 gold, please.
korcheck 04-21-07, 11:05 PM	wouldn't you know it I left my wallet in my other pants, how 'bout you spot me for it and i'll pay you back next febutober the eleventeenth.
Alex_ 04-22-07, 01:42 AM	So, without any further putting it off, here are the "guns" (and "mines/grenades") that I have created based on the world of Eberron, for the sake of pleasing all those who tirelessly seek them here: The desire for guns isn't a practical one, or a desire to fill a particular need or role. It's entirely stylistic. Providing magical items that do something just as well, or even better than a firearm doesn't change the reason why people would incorporate them into their game. Not that the stats provided are bad, but they're just very loosely defined magical items, and making them into the shape of a firearm doesn't exactly provide the same feel (lack of loud bang, smoke, smell of gunpowder, grittiness, etc). I think if gun-like weapons were psuedo-mass produced, then they would have done so in a way similar to how it was done in the real world with different companies competing with multiple makes/models to suite the needs of the customers. From a game design standpoint, I don't think that's a very wise route. Weapon stats in D&D are uniform when it comes to stats. I wouldn't want 6 different stats for pistols anymore than I'd introduce 6 different stats for crossbows, or longswords, even those all of those are crafted by hand, or pseudo-mass produced with customer needs/desires in mind. It's also mentioned that in Eberron, the Dragonmarked houses have established a set of standards that even independent businesses generally abide by. That's why a Longsword purchased in Sharn is going to have the same general stats as one purchased in Karnnath. I don't think it would change much just because firearms are involved. In D&D, higher quality goods are represented by the Masterwork quality, while those using poor materials or manufacturing suffer from a -1 penalty to hit and damage. Totally different damage dice, critical multipliers, ranges, etc don't represent a variance in quality of manufacture- they represent different weapons entirely. Also, considering that any gunpowder substance would be a an alchemical substance, firearms would require above average levels of craftsmanship, and that they're relatively rare (exotic weapon), and expensive, they seem to be the perfect product to be introduced and almost exclusively sold by House Cannith.
Lord Psynister 04-22-07, 02:21 AM	From a game design standpoint, I don't think that's a very wise route. Weapon stats in D&D are uniform when it comes to stats. I wouldn't want 6 different stats for pistols anymore than I'd introduce 6 different stats for crossbows, or longswords, even those all of those are crafted by hand, or pseudo-mass produced with customer needs/desires in mind. It's also mentioned that in Eberron, the Dragonmarked houses have established a set of standards that even independent businesses generally abide by. That's why a Longsword purchased in Sharn is going to have the same general stats as one purchased in Karnnath. I don't think it would change much just because firearms are involved. You'll also notice that the different "companies" do not make the the weapons based off of the same spells. It's not one company offering a longsword and another company offering their own longsword. They are all "guns" but they aren't the same weapons, they don't do the same damage or damage type. One company focuses on undead, another focuses on acid, another on force/wind. The piece you quoted there was referring strictly to what I've posted already. Applying your statement to the weapons I posted there would be the same as saying that you don't want different spells that do different amounts of fire damage. You don't want one spell that does cold damage and another that does electric, and another for acid. We want everything to be uniform? No, this isn't something that you give to your every day footsoldier, that's why the prices aren't 15 gp. In D&D, higher quality goods are represented by the Masterwork quality, while those using poor materials or manufacturing suffer from a -1 penalty to hit and damage. Totally different damage dice, critical multipliers, ranges, etc don't represent a variance in quality of manufacture- they represent different weapons entirely. Also, considering that any gunpowder substance would be a an alchemical substance, firearms would require above average levels of craftsmanship, and that they're relatively rare (exotic weapon), and expensive, they seem to be the perfect product to be introduced and almost exclusively sold by House Cannith. These weapons aren't meant to be average alchemical products. They're meant to be magical, hence the basis spells being listed there. There is no masterwork quality in magic. The competition between "companies" isn't in a sense of 'my quality is better than yours' it comes in 'my artificers have bonded more powerful magics than yours'. Again, think in terms of magic here, not craft skill checks. While House Cannith makes a fine place for them to be entroduced, there are a couple of points to be made: 1) House Cannith is not fully united in and of itself. Different branches of the family compete against themselves. Sure they may be selling them as a family, but they don't all get along. See Keith's premade adventures if you disagree. 2) These could just as easily be manufactured by the same gnomes that are using elemental binding. Depending on how you view these items being made, you could very well apply it to any number of different factions. The MUD weapons could easily have been developed by Thrane. By Thranian Cannith's, perhaps, but just as easily by others. The original prototype could very easily have been found on Xen'drik. Yes, Cannith holds most of the magic-based inventiveness of the setting, and yes most of the population are NPC classed, but that does not mean that everything has to go through one single port. Again, as I have mentioned above, these weapons are not meant to be powder-based alchemical items at all, they are based off of existing magic, as is most of the existing "modern" inventions in the Eberron setting. The lightning rail doesn't run on iron bars, it runs on magic items. Not magic items made by metal workers because the real world version is, but made by magic users of old.
Alex_ 04-24-07, 11:37 AM	They are all "guns" but they aren't the same weapons, they don't do the same damage or damage type. No, this isn't something that you give to your every day footsoldier, that's why the prices aren't 15 gp. I don't see how these magical items qualify as guns, unless you decide that they are simply shaped as guns, in which case they become an overly complex (rules-wise) substitute, that are still somewhat far from the concept. For simplicity's sake though, why not give them all the same similar range and damage, but different damage types? You can probably cut the length of your list in half. The competition between "companies" isn't in a sense of 'my quality is better than yours' it comes in 'my artificers have bonded more powerful magics than yours'. How is that not related to quality? House Cannith is not fully united in and of itself. Different branches of the family compete against themselves. Sure they may be selling them as a family, but they don't all get along. See Keith's premade adventures if you disagree. They compete for power and what seems to be personal matters- not necessarily markets. This is a dispute over who will be the next leader, not trying to put their operations in other lands out of business. Yes, Cannith holds most of the magic-based inventiveness of the setting, and yes most of the population are NPC classed, but that does not mean that everything has to go through one single port. Again, as I have mentioned above, these weapons are not meant to be powder-based alchemical items at all, they are based off of existing magic, as is most of the existing "modern" inventions in the Eberron setting. The lightning rail doesn't run on iron bars, it runs on magic items. Not magic items made by metal workers because the real world version is, but made by magic users of old. No you don't -HAVE- to have House Cannith dominating production and large sales of a magical weapon. However, it makes more sense in Eberron, seeing as they've traditionally been unchallenged in this domain, and would be unlikely to see a major market appear amongst independents and not try to get in on it. I would it expect no more than a new market appearing in the field of air/sea travel, and not having House Lyrandar not being involved, or the invention and marketing of some new kind of healing salves/potions that did not involve House Ghallanda.
Lord Psynister 04-24-07, 11:39 PM	I don't see how these magical items qualify as guns, unless you decide that they are simply shaped as guns, in which case they become an overly complex (rules-wise) substitute, that are still somewhat far from the concept. Overly complex, rules-wise? Difference of opinion. I'll leave it at that. For simplicity's sake though, why not give them all the same similar range and damage, but different damage types? You can probably cut the length of your list in half. Because simplicity and a lack of options is dull IMO. If you want to use these in your game and make them all the same range and the same amount of damage, then by all means please do so. I can throw a dagger 10 feet, and I can throw a club 10 feet, and a spear can get me 20 feet, and a heavy crossbow can get me 120 feet, though a light only gives me 80. Oh, but then there's also the javelin that will go 30 feet, and who could forget that 50 foot sling, eh? Well, we do still have the dart at 20, the handaxe at 10, the hammer at 20, the trident at 10, the 100 foot longbow, and the 60 foot short bow. And lets not forget the bola, net, sai, and shuriken. Do we see a little bit of variety in ranges and damage amounts in there? Few options = Few people interested. The list could easily be chopped down if we follow your suggestion there. If I were to include these in my games, I would not have just a single company selling them with a small selection (as I've noted in previous posts), I would have variety. Why don't all spells have the same range and same damage type? Because spells would become boring. Granted, you need more powerful spells as you gain more levels, but you need more powerful weapons too. How is that not related to quality? It is related to quality. In your previous post you spoke of "above average levels of craftsmanship" which I interpret to be the craft skill. My reply was to point out that these items aren't meant to be looked at in terms of the craft skill, but at the level of magic. That's what I was referring to. Bad choice of words on my part. They compete for power and what seems to be personal matters- not necessarily markets. This is a dispute over who will be the next leader, not trying to put their operations in other lands out of business. And what is one of the main driving forces behind power? *drops a pair of gold pieces on the table* YMMV. No you don't -HAVE- to have House Cannith dominating production and large sales of a magical weapon. However, it makes more sense in Eberron, seeing as they've traditionally been unchallenged in this domain, and would be unlikely to see a major market appear amongst independents and not try to get in on it. I would have Cannith being the dominating force, I just wouldn't have all of them made by Cannith. As guns are not even mentioned in the setting itself, I wouldn't have these be something that have been around for a long time, they would be relatively new. However, you'll notice that I left a good deal of specifics and details to the DM's if any of them feel a desire to use them. Why? Because everyone's view of the world of Eberron is different. A lot of things in this setting were left obscure and open for DM interpretation, and I sought to follow that trend here by giving options and variety. Not by giving solid rules saying "this is the way it's got to be, this is where you have to get them, this is what they can and can't do, etc." No, this is giving people a different place to start with a different approach than most of the others that are floating around right now. This is what I would use as my equivalent of a gun in my setting (never going to happen). Do they have to look like a gun and function like a gun? Not at all. If you don't see these as filling that empty holster on your belt, then you don't have to use them as such. Some people feel that something is missing there, and this is just my proposal to filling that slot.
Alex_ 04-25-07, 12:44 AM	Overly complex, rules-wise? Difference of opinion. I'll leave it at that. Relatively speaking. All the weapons are the same general "type" only with differing capabilities enough to where they are collectively as large as the entire Simple Weapons list. The addition of saving throws also seems odd, and adds more dice rolling in situations where you would generally not see any. Why don't all spells have the same range and same damage type? Because spells would become boring. Actually, I would cite the somewhat arbitrary and inconsistent designs and arrangement of spells to be one of D&D's shortcomings. You can't really tell what any spell does mechanically from the name, and essentially have to learn new rules and entirely new mechanics for certain spells. I don't like how much material is spent in every book explaining new mechanics behind every spell. Yes they can make for interesting spells- for the person casting them. For the other players waiting as the spell description is looked up and checked on, and the DM who has handle it, they can quite often be annoying. The worst thing they do is bog down gameplay. I can throw a dagger 10 feet, and I can throw a club 10 feet, and a spear can get me 20 feet, and a heavy crossbow can get me 120 feet, though a light only gives me 80. Oh, but then there's also the javelin that will go 30 feet, and who could forget that 50 foot sling, eh? Well, we do still have the dart at 20, the handaxe at 10, the hammer at 20, the trident at 10, the 100 foot longbow, and the 60 foot short bow. And lets not forget the bola, net, sai, and shuriken. .[quote] You're naming weapons in several different classes. There are only 3-5 options for Crossbows, 4 options for bows, 1-2 options for slings, 2 options for hammers, etc. You've got around 3-4 dozen "guns". Mechanically, all Crossbows are pretty much the same. Mechanically, all hammers are pretty much the same. Mechanically, all spears are pretty much the same. Or at least moreso than 2 different "Elemental Damage Dealing Infusions". [quote]And what is one of the main driving forces behind power? *drops a pair of gold pieces on the table* YMMV. Zorlan is the only one that could possibly apply to, although I think his ambitions could be chalked up to his selfish philosophies more than a love of material posesseions and simply being wealthy. Merrix simply wishes to continue his experiments in peace and doesn't want Cannith to collapse, and doesn't want to lead personally, but would rather someone of his choosing do so. Jorlanna is more idealistic and is looking to unify the house. House Cannith has not undergone a schism as of yet. It's still a single house, with all parts related. It's just in a transition period, as the next leader is being decided upon. I would have Cannith being the dominating force, I just wouldn't have all of them made by Cannith. As guns are not even mentioned in the setting itself, I wouldn't have these be something that have been around for a long time, they would be relatively new. Getting back to my example with standarization with weapons in my first post, Canith's influence is so far that even independent businesses will try to produce systems of similar capabilities. You don't see a whole lot of niche businesses producing considerably different goods for a specific region. Not enough to warrant mention in the rules. This is what I would use as my equivalent of a gun in my setting (never going to happen). Do they have to look like a gun and function like a gun? Not at all. If you don't see these as filling that empty holster on your belt, then you don't have to use them as such. Some people feel that something is missing there, and this is just my proposal to filling that slot. And I'm explaining how this would be viewed by a person who likes and encourages use of firearms in Eberron (among other settings), such as myself. If I asked my DM if we would have Firearms, and he instead presented me with something like this as a substitute, I wouldn't consider it a very satisfactory substitute.
Forgivance 04-30-07, 11:00 AM	Alex, you don't like it? Don't use it. If you are truely attempting to delve into his psyche and figure his reasoning...I would venture that it is because he: - Likes his variations. - Likes screwing with you. - Enjoys running his game, his way. - Is posting something that he put some effort into in case anyone else is interested and is to nice to tell you to stuff it. - Enjoys being creative...stupid D&D players being creative... Now, if you want a gun, than here is my post...well, more of a referance for you. DMG Page 146.... Done! Though I'm going to use Psynisters ideas...many of them ;)
Lord Psynister 04-30-07, 11:53 PM	Other than option #2 there, I'd say that was pretty accurate. Thanks, Forgivance, I hope you find them useful and fun.
Alex_ 05-01-07, 09:21 PM	Alex, you don't like it? Don't use it. I'm not using them. I would assume that goes without saying. If you are truely attempting to delve into his psyche and figure his reasoning... I'm not. Now, if you want a gun, than here is my post...well, more of a referance for you. DMG Page 146.... I know about them. It's in my signature. I didn't mean to imply that idea couldn't be used or was bad. I will repeat that I was giving an observation from the point of view of someone who would be looking for guns in a campaign. This isn't really a suitable replacement for them. Something of a word of caution to people who plan on using these (perfectly fine) and then trying to pass them off as firearms to the players (probably not so okay).
snakebliskan 05-01-07, 10:14 PM	There is a book series I think its called demon wars or some such thing.. any way they have firearm like magic devices powered by demons they belch fire acid and other effects. why not make these fire arms more like wands and just use spells for there effects? like a pitsol shaped device that fires acid orb.. or any orb for that matter. anyone for a fireball rifle? or how about the ever popular magic missle sub-machine gun... make them only usable 4 times a day kind of like eternal wands..... only better!
Alex_ 05-02-07, 12:47 AM	There is a book series I think its called demon wars or some such thing.. any way they have firearm like magic devices powered by demons they belch fire acid and other effects. why not make these fire arms more like wands and just use spells for there effects? like a pitsol shaped device that fires acid orb.. or any orb for that matter. anyone for a fireball rifle? or how about the ever popular magic missle sub-machine gun... make them only usable 4 times a day kind of like eternal wands..... only better! That's exactly what Lord Psynister did.