Garrote Rules? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Garrote Rules? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Psymnotica
05-28-07, 07:45 AM I'm currently creating a reoccurring villain for my Eberron campaign who is going to be a Thuranni assassin. She will be reputed to have a gruesome signature murder of decapitating her victims with a special garrote. Unfortunately, I have too many D&D books and I can't seem to find any garrote rules in them. So does anyone know where they are?

Psymnotica
Bluebrush
05-28-07, 09:50 AM You can find some in an old 3.0 book called "song and silence". They were reprinted in a recent issue of Dragon, sometime in the last 3 months I think.

From what I recall, it's basically done as a weapon you use in grapples.
It deals damage each round, and I think there's a fortitude save each round to avoid passing out or something.
Edymnion
05-28-07, 05:52 PM Easiest way, IMO, would be to simply say it uses the drowning rules.
Make a grapple with the garrote, and as long as they don't break the grapple, it counts as a round that they have to hold their breath to avoid drowning.
thewizard3
05-28-07, 08:22 PM I would use a combination of Reoccurring damage rule combined with drowning rules. Once they become unconscious, use the coup de grace rules --->

coup de grace
full-round action that allows an attacker to attempt a killing blow against a helpless opponent. A coup de grace can be administered with a melee weapon, or with a bow or crossbow if the attacker is adjacent to the opponent. An attacker delivering a coup de grace automatically scores a critical hit, after which the defender must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Rogues also gain their extra sneak attack damage for this attack. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening foes. A coup de grace is not possible against a creature immune to critical hits.
RogueElement
05-28-07, 08:27 PM A garrote should KO a character a lot faster than drowning since a garrote works by directly cutting off the blood to the brain. The unarmed version of a garrote is called the "nine second sleep hold" because (if done correctly) the victim is knocked out in 9 seconds flat! (just 3 rounds in D&D terms). However, an arrow should also kill you dead with one shot, and it doesn't in D&D, so other rules are needed.

EDIT: Song & Silence has rules for garrote attacks and several different versions of garrotes.

While we're on the subject, I've actually seen this done in real life. One guy volunteered to be the victim and a blue belt used a nine second sleep hold on him. The "nine second sleep hold" actually took just over 15 seconds because the holder wanted to make sure he didn't kill the guy. You can crush someone's windpipe really easy this way, resulting in certain death, so don't try this at home kids! The victiim started to turn purple almost immediately, then dark purple after a few seconds, then all of sudden started to gibber random words and sounds and his eyes started to dart wildly, then he finally blacked out. He woke up a few seconds later with a splitting headache and it took him a couple of minutes to become completely coherent again. Ah college life, you gotta love it.
thewizard3
05-28-07, 08:42 PM Ok, so along those lines, perhaps there should be an immediate coup de grace possibility the round immediately after the successful grapple check. There is always the possibility the intended victim gets a thumb or couple fingers between the throat and Garrote. Then of course, there is the possibility of armor. I suppose that would call for additional modifiers on the couple de grace check.

Decapitation… Perhaps you could use the sunder rules for that or an automatic success after a successful coup de grace, or a standard action… Guess it’s really up to you of how you want to rule it. You are, after all, the DM
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer
05-28-07, 08:49 PM last months dragon gave extensave rules for garotting issue 355.
Edymnion
05-28-07, 09:19 PM A garrote should KO a character a lot faster than drowningSo just say they don't get to hold their breath for their con score as they didn't actually get a breath to hold.

First round, DC 10 or go unconcious.
Second round, DC 11 or go unconcious.
Etc.
RogueElement
05-28-07, 11:29 PM So just say they don't get to hold their breath for their con score as they didn't actually get a breath to hold.

First round, DC 10 or go unconcious.
Second round, DC 11 or go unconcious.
Etc.

That makes more sense than the rules in Song and Silence.
Edymnion
05-29-07, 12:51 PM That makes more sense than the rules in Song and Silence.WotC is allergic to their own equivolency policy.
Factol Rhys
05-29-07, 04:29 PM Here's (http://orbis-terrarum.livejournal.com/9027.html#cutid2) a set of garrote rules, if you're easily swayed by attractive formatting. I only recently stumbled across the site, though, so I can't make any claims about how the rules work out in a game.
Vharuck
05-30-07, 05:24 PM WotC is allergic to their own equivolency policy.

People clamor for more realism and then wonder why the system is bogged down with so many damn rules to memorize.
Edymnion
05-30-07, 07:29 PM People clamor for more realism and then wonder why the system is bogged down with so many damn rules to memorize.Bingo. Anybody else remember when 3e first launched and we all went "Equivolancy, finally! A sword is a sword is a sword, no more having a million books filled with cosmetically differant swords!"

Yeah, that went out the window real fast when they started needing filler.
RogueElement
05-30-07, 11:09 PM I miss my bec-de-corbin glaive-guisarme.
Psymnotica
06-01-07, 08:17 PM Wow. Thanks for all the info. I'll read up on the drowning rules (which will be important latter on when the characters travel through Shargon's Teeth) and check out those garrote rules on the livejournal page. I'm not sure which way I'll go with them, as I want to impose upon the players her lethality, but at the same time I want them to have a fighting chance against her if they are taken by surprise and are garroted (my players have this nasty tendency to fail the most critical of rolls).

As for Song and Silence, sadly it is a book I do not possess (silly me, thinking that Complete Adventurer would have all the same, but updated info as S&S).

Psymnotica
Edymnion
06-01-07, 10:07 PM Wow. Thanks for all the info. I'll read up on the drowning rules (which will be important latter on when the characters travel through Shargon's Teeth) and check out those garrote rules on the livejournal page. I'm not sure which way I'll go with them, as I want to impose upon the players her lethality, but at the same time I want them to have a fighting chance against her if they are taken by surprise and are garroted (my players have this nasty tendency to fail the most critical of rolls).Well, they do have a pretty good chance of surviving for a few rounds. They are essentially getting to checks a round for it, after all. One check to break the grapple, and then a fort check to avoid blacking out. Even if they fail their first fort check, they are reduced to 0 hp, but can still take an action.

But basically, you're trying to pull in opposite directions at once. You can't try to make something lethal, and then try not to kill anybody. If you want this character to be lethal, then they have to be lethal. There is no thrill in victory if there is no sting to defeat, after all.
DragonBringerX
06-01-07, 10:33 PM Here's (http://orbis-terrarum.livejournal.com/9027.html#cutid2) a set of garrote rules, if you're easily swayed by attractive formatting. I only recently stumbled across the site, though, so I can't make any claims about how the rules work out in a game.

i like these rules...these are essentially updated rules from the song and silence. My only beef...this method takes WAY to long to use! :mad:

I would combine those rules with some of those "drowning" rules mentioned above. A con check every round that gets progressively harder.

As for the OP, having her "decapitate" her victims would need some sort of special ruling or weapon (like vorpal :D )
Alex_
06-01-07, 11:42 PM Wow. Thanks for all the info. I'll read up on the drowning rules (which will be important latter on when the characters travel through Shargon's Teeth) and check out those garrote rules on the livejournal page. I'm not sure which way I'll go with them, as I want to impose upon the players her lethality, but at the same time I want them to have a fighting chance against her if they are taken by surprise and are garroted (my players have this nasty tendency to fail the most critical of rolls).

As for Song and Silence, sadly it is a book I do not possess (silly me, thinking that Complete Adventurer would have all the same, but updated info as S&S).

Psymnotica

To give the garrote maximum lethality, don't have them just jump out and use it to open combat with one of the PCs. If you want to suddenly and quickly kill someone in a crowd, have them used a weapon with poison or some kind of instant death effect.

Reserve the garrote for when you can isolate one of them and have them attacked when none of their allies are aware or can respond. Then it won't matter as much whether they can hold their breath for 2 or 10 rounds.
Elderich
06-11-07, 12:34 AM Reserve the garrote for when you can isolate one of them and have them attacked when none of their allies are aware or can respond. Then it won't matter as much whether they can hold their breath for 2 or 10 rounds.IMO...
It should be a surprise round only attack.
I like Edy's Progression. Every round it adds drama.
I think IF you go unconscious, but are not Couped, then you should stay KOed for an unknown number of rounds to add drama.
If you do not go unconscious, and break the hold, then you should be disabled somehow, probably use one of the conditions or something like...

Garroted
Unable to speak or whisper. fort save to croak out one word that requires a listen check to understand what word was said.
Only one move action per turn in this condition. Every one quarter of a move action requires a fort save or fall prone and add dazed to your condition.

I do not know how long I would make the player be Garroted.
Jonasty
06-11-07, 10:02 AM Just FYI, the Dragon Compendium (the book with a bunch of Dragon articles all tossed into one tome) has a list of new weapons, etc. one of which is a garrotte. I don't know how the rules work for it off the top of my head, but it is the only 3.5e material I've seen specifically mention. And if memory serves, I wasn't too thrilled with it but just to let people know its out there.
Logos7
06-11-07, 11:15 AM I was actually thinking about this and i've never been a fan of the other rules available for this.

Garrot : Exotic Light Weapon D4 /x4

special, this weapon provokes AoO ( like the whip) and doesn't threaten any squares. You can only use the garrot on someone your size or smaller if you successfully use the garrot, Grapple is initiated, If the Target is Pinned While Garroted, the target is helpless for 1 min

2 Checks to helpless should make the garrot deadly but the provoking AoO and Grapple should prevent most of the abuse that i can think of. Helpless + x4 crit mod should make those copes de grace interesting.
Negeta
06-29-07, 10:00 AM Just a minor point here, but if I was using the garrote as dealing damage rule, I'd make it be an automatic critical hit. I mean, isn't the neck a crit point?

I like the continuous Fort saves that increase in difficulty. I'd also allow for a bonus to the save if someone has some sort of neck protection. Sorry it's not a bigger point, but seeing this topic made me want to use a garrote on a player in my game.
turalisj
06-29-07, 11:43 PM A garrote should KO a character a lot faster than drowning since a garrote works by directly cutting off the blood to the brain. The unarmed version of a garrote is called the "nine second sleep hold" because (if done correctly) the victim is knocked out in 9 seconds flat! (just 3 rounds in D&D terms). However, an arrow should also kill you dead with one shot, and it doesn't in D&D, so other rules are needed.

EDIT: Song & Silence has rules for garrote attacks and several different versions of garrotes.

While we're on the subject, I've actually seen this done in real life. One guy volunteered to be the victim and a blue belt used a nine second sleep hold on him. The "nine second sleep hold" actually took just over 15 seconds because the holder wanted to make sure he didn't kill the guy. You can crush someone's windpipe really easy this way, resulting in certain death, so don't try this at home kids! The victim started to turn purple almost immediately, then dark purple after a few seconds, then all of sudden started to gibber random words and sounds and his eyes started to dart wildly, then he finally blacked out. He woke up a few seconds later with a splitting headache and it took him a couple of minutes to become completely coherent again. Ah college life, you gotta love it.

That's something to put on youtube. Oh, and you misspelled victim :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psymnotica 05-28-07, 07:45 AM	I'm currently creating a reoccurring villain for my Eberron campaign who is going to be a Thuranni assassin. She will be reputed to have a gruesome signature murder of decapitating her victims with a special garrote. Unfortunately, I have too many D&D books and I can't seem to find any garrote rules in them. So does anyone know where they are? Psymnotica
Bluebrush 05-28-07, 09:50 AM	You can find some in an old 3.0 book called "song and silence". They were reprinted in a recent issue of Dragon, sometime in the last 3 months I think. From what I recall, it's basically done as a weapon you use in grapples. It deals damage each round, and I think there's a fortitude save each round to avoid passing out or something.
Edymnion 05-28-07, 05:52 PM	Easiest way, IMO, would be to simply say it uses the drowning rules. Make a grapple with the garrote, and as long as they don't break the grapple, it counts as a round that they have to hold their breath to avoid drowning.
thewizard3 05-28-07, 08:22 PM	I would use a combination of Reoccurring damage rule combined with drowning rules. Once they become unconscious, use the coup de grace rules ---> coup de grace full-round action that allows an attacker to attempt a killing blow against a helpless opponent. A coup de grace can be administered with a melee weapon, or with a bow or crossbow if the attacker is adjacent to the opponent. An attacker delivering a coup de grace automatically scores a critical hit, after which the defender must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Rogues also gain their extra sneak attack damage for this attack. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening foes. A coup de grace is not possible against a creature immune to critical hits.
RogueElement 05-28-07, 08:27 PM	A garrote should KO a character a lot faster than drowning since a garrote works by directly cutting off the blood to the brain. The unarmed version of a garrote is called the "nine second sleep hold" because (if done correctly) the victim is knocked out in 9 seconds flat! (just 3 rounds in D&D terms). However, an arrow should also kill you dead with one shot, and it doesn't in D&D, so other rules are needed. EDIT: Song & Silence has rules for garrote attacks and several different versions of garrotes. While we're on the subject, I've actually seen this done in real life. One guy volunteered to be the victim and a blue belt used a nine second sleep hold on him. The "nine second sleep hold" actually took just over 15 seconds because the holder wanted to make sure he didn't kill the guy. You can crush someone's windpipe really easy this way, resulting in certain death, so don't try this at home kids! The victiim started to turn purple almost immediately, then dark purple after a few seconds, then all of sudden started to gibber random words and sounds and his eyes started to dart wildly, then he finally blacked out. He woke up a few seconds later with a splitting headache and it took him a couple of minutes to become completely coherent again. Ah college life, you gotta love it.
thewizard3 05-28-07, 08:42 PM	Ok, so along those lines, perhaps there should be an immediate coup de grace possibility the round immediately after the successful grapple check. There is always the possibility the intended victim gets a thumb or couple fingers between the throat and Garrote. Then of course, there is the possibility of armor. I suppose that would call for additional modifiers on the couple de grace check. Decapitation… Perhaps you could use the sunder rules for that or an automatic success after a successful coup de grace, or a standard action… Guess it’s really up to you of how you want to rule it. You are, after all, the DM
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-28-07, 08:49 PM	last months dragon gave extensave rules for garotting issue 355.
Edymnion 05-28-07, 09:19 PM	A garrote should KO a character a lot faster than drowningSo just say they don't get to hold their breath for their con score as they didn't actually get a breath to hold. First round, DC 10 or go unconcious. Second round, DC 11 or go unconcious. Etc.
RogueElement 05-28-07, 11:29 PM	So just say they don't get to hold their breath for their con score as they didn't actually get a breath to hold. First round, DC 10 or go unconcious. Second round, DC 11 or go unconcious. Etc. That makes more sense than the rules in Song and Silence.
Edymnion 05-29-07, 12:51 PM	That makes more sense than the rules in Song and Silence.WotC is allergic to their own equivolency policy.
Factol Rhys 05-29-07, 04:29 PM	Here's (http://orbis-terrarum.livejournal.com/9027.html#cutid2) a set of garrote rules, if you're easily swayed by attractive formatting. I only recently stumbled across the site, though, so I can't make any claims about how the rules work out in a game.
Vharuck 05-30-07, 05:24 PM	WotC is allergic to their own equivolency policy. People clamor for more realism and then wonder why the system is bogged down with so many damn rules to memorize.
Edymnion 05-30-07, 07:29 PM	People clamor for more realism and then wonder why the system is bogged down with so many damn rules to memorize.Bingo. Anybody else remember when 3e first launched and we all went "Equivolancy, finally! A sword is a sword is a sword, no more having a million books filled with cosmetically differant swords!" Yeah, that went out the window real fast when they started needing filler.
RogueElement 05-30-07, 11:09 PM	I miss my bec-de-corbin glaive-guisarme.
Psymnotica 06-01-07, 08:17 PM	Wow. Thanks for all the info. I'll read up on the drowning rules (which will be important latter on when the characters travel through Shargon's Teeth) and check out those garrote rules on the livejournal page. I'm not sure which way I'll go with them, as I want to impose upon the players her lethality, but at the same time I want them to have a fighting chance against her if they are taken by surprise and are garroted (my players have this nasty tendency to fail the most critical of rolls). As for Song and Silence, sadly it is a book I do not possess (silly me, thinking that Complete Adventurer would have all the same, but updated info as S&S). Psymnotica
Edymnion 06-01-07, 10:07 PM	Wow. Thanks for all the info. I'll read up on the drowning rules (which will be important latter on when the characters travel through Shargon's Teeth) and check out those garrote rules on the livejournal page. I'm not sure which way I'll go with them, as I want to impose upon the players her lethality, but at the same time I want them to have a fighting chance against her if they are taken by surprise and are garroted (my players have this nasty tendency to fail the most critical of rolls).Well, they do have a pretty good chance of surviving for a few rounds. They are essentially getting to checks a round for it, after all. One check to break the grapple, and then a fort check to avoid blacking out. Even if they fail their first fort check, they are reduced to 0 hp, but can still take an action. But basically, you're trying to pull in opposite directions at once. You can't try to make something lethal, and then try not to kill anybody. If you want this character to be lethal, then they have to be lethal. There is no thrill in victory if there is no sting to defeat, after all.
DragonBringerX 06-01-07, 10:33 PM	Here's (http://orbis-terrarum.livejournal.com/9027.html#cutid2) a set of garrote rules, if you're easily swayed by attractive formatting. I only recently stumbled across the site, though, so I can't make any claims about how the rules work out in a game. i like these rules...these are essentially updated rules from the song and silence. My only beef...this method takes WAY to long to use! :mad: I would combine those rules with some of those "drowning" rules mentioned above. A con check every round that gets progressively harder. As for the OP, having her "decapitate" her victims would need some sort of special ruling or weapon (like vorpal :D )
Alex_ 06-01-07, 11:42 PM	Wow. Thanks for all the info. I'll read up on the drowning rules (which will be important latter on when the characters travel through Shargon's Teeth) and check out those garrote rules on the livejournal page. I'm not sure which way I'll go with them, as I want to impose upon the players her lethality, but at the same time I want them to have a fighting chance against her if they are taken by surprise and are garroted (my players have this nasty tendency to fail the most critical of rolls). As for Song and Silence, sadly it is a book I do not possess (silly me, thinking that Complete Adventurer would have all the same, but updated info as S&S). Psymnotica To give the garrote maximum lethality, don't have them just jump out and use it to open combat with one of the PCs. If you want to suddenly and quickly kill someone in a crowd, have them used a weapon with poison or some kind of instant death effect. Reserve the garrote for when you can isolate one of them and have them attacked when none of their allies are aware or can respond. Then it won't matter as much whether they can hold their breath for 2 or 10 rounds.
Elderich 06-11-07, 12:34 AM	Reserve the garrote for when you can isolate one of them and have them attacked when none of their allies are aware or can respond. Then it won't matter as much whether they can hold their breath for 2 or 10 rounds.IMO... It should be a surprise round only attack. I like Edy's Progression. Every round it adds drama. I think IF you go unconscious, but are not Couped, then you should stay KOed for an unknown number of rounds to add drama. If you do not go unconscious, and break the hold, then you should be disabled somehow, probably use one of the conditions or something like... Garroted Unable to speak or whisper. fort save to croak out one word that requires a listen check to understand what word was said. Only one move action per turn in this condition. Every one quarter of a move action requires a fort save or fall prone and add dazed to your condition. I do not know how long I would make the player be Garroted.
Jonasty 06-11-07, 10:02 AM	Just FYI, the Dragon Compendium (the book with a bunch of Dragon articles all tossed into one tome) has a list of new weapons, etc. one of which is a garrotte. I don't know how the rules work for it off the top of my head, but it is the only 3.5e material I've seen specifically mention. And if memory serves, I wasn't too thrilled with it but just to let people know its out there.
Logos7 06-11-07, 11:15 AM	I was actually thinking about this and i've never been a fan of the other rules available for this. Garrot : Exotic Light Weapon D4 /x4 special, this weapon provokes AoO ( like the whip) and doesn't threaten any squares. You can only use the garrot on someone your size or smaller if you successfully use the garrot, Grapple is initiated, If the Target is Pinned While Garroted, the target is helpless for 1 min 2 Checks to helpless should make the garrot deadly but the provoking AoO and Grapple should prevent most of the abuse that i can think of. Helpless + x4 crit mod should make those copes de grace interesting.
Negeta 06-29-07, 10:00 AM	Just a minor point here, but if I was using the garrote as dealing damage rule, I'd make it be an automatic critical hit. I mean, isn't the neck a crit point? I like the continuous Fort saves that increase in difficulty. I'd also allow for a bonus to the save if someone has some sort of neck protection. Sorry it's not a bigger point, but seeing this topic made me want to use a garrote on a player in my game.
turalisj 06-29-07, 11:43 PM	A garrote should KO a character a lot faster than drowning since a garrote works by directly cutting off the blood to the brain. The unarmed version of a garrote is called the "nine second sleep hold" because (if done correctly) the victim is knocked out in 9 seconds flat! (just 3 rounds in D&D terms). However, an arrow should also kill you dead with one shot, and it doesn't in D&D, so other rules are needed. EDIT: Song & Silence has rules for garrote attacks and several different versions of garrotes. While we're on the subject, I've actually seen this done in real life. One guy volunteered to be the victim and a blue belt used a nine second sleep hold on him. The "nine second sleep hold" actually took just over 15 seconds because the holder wanted to make sure he didn't kill the guy. You can crush someone's windpipe really easy this way, resulting in certain death, so don't try this at home kids! The victim started to turn purple almost immediately, then dark purple after a few seconds, then all of sudden started to gibber random words and sounds and his eyes started to dart wildly, then he finally blacked out. He woke up a few seconds later with a splitting headache and it took him a couple of minutes to become completely coherent again. Ah college life, you gotta love it. That's something to put on youtube. Oh, and you misspelled victim :P