Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MageED 07-11-07, 04:32 PM	So, it doesn't say anything about it in the text, and generally that means "no" but I figured I'd ask anyways. You think a Grappling Vine (Plant Graft in the Magic of Eberron) could be used to deliever "Touch" range spells with a ranged touch attack?
Alex_ 07-11-07, 05:58 PM	No. Activating the vine to extend and grapple someone and reaching out to touch someone as part of a spell are 2 different things.
MageED 07-11-07, 07:07 PM	The vine can be used to grasp at objects as well(ranged touch), not as just part of a grapple. The grapple part isn't the inital attack of the vine either, you simply make a ranged touch to hit your target, dealing no damage, and if you hit, you can then Choose to make a free grapple attempt, or you could choose not to, which lead me to believe it could possibly be used for other things. Also, many touch spells can be cast, and then delivered in a following round. Or perhaps you cast the spell, then use a move action to use the vine to make the touch? (full round cast basically) I just want to make sure I am able to maximize the use of the Vine, so I wanna cover all bases.
Alex_ 07-11-07, 07:52 PM	I wasn't clear enough. My apologies. The vine can be used to grasp at objects as well(ranged touch), not as just part of a grapple. That's because there's no grapple rules for unattended objects You're assumed to have no real resistance. The grapple part isn't the inital attack of the vine either, you simply make a ranged touch to hit your target, dealing no damage, and if you hit, you can then Choose to make a free grapple attempt, or you could choose not to, which lead me to believe it could possibly be used for other things. If the attack misses or the grapple ends, the vine automatically retracts to your hand. You can't do anything else with it. Also, many touch spells can be cast, and then delivered in a following round. Or perhaps you cast the spell, then use a move action to use the vine to make the touch? If the delivery of the spell could be done at a later time, I see no problem. It would be like casting a spell on your own arms or weapon and then making an attack or grapple later to release the spell. Also, using the vine is a standard action. You're not allowed more than 1 standard action in a round except in certain circumstances (multiple attacks in a round). You can't use full round action to spend a standard action casting a spell, and then using another standard action that same round to deliver it via the vine. Also, You couldn't do something like cast a Cure Light Wounds with a 10 foot reach, using the vine's reach in place of your own. This was the general idea I was getting at. I just want to make sure I am able to maximize the use of the Vine, so I wanna cover all bases. You may want to look into spells requiring swift actions or at classes and prestige classes that offer a combination of martial and spellcasting progress. Swift actions can be performed in conjunction with a standard action, and are common for spells that modify melee or ranged attacks. Many melee/spellcasting classes also have some kind of class features that allow a spell that would normally take a standard action to be instantaneously delivered through an attack., or allow for a spell to be cast and an attack to be made in the same round.
MageED 07-11-07, 09:11 PM	so basically as long as my standard action is being used to activate and use the vine, and the spell is an instant or swift action spell, I'm good. I would also assume using a Haste action would work as well, since the vine would be an attack? Maybe? Instant/Swift Spells (not many are touch tho =/) If I'm hasted Quiken Spells? If the spell can be discharged in a later round Does that cover it properly?
Warforged Goblin 07-12-07, 07:35 AM	Sounds right to me.
Cifer 07-12-07, 09:42 AM	@Alex You might want to read about "holding the charge". Pretty much every spell that requires to touch your target can be cast, held and discharged when the enemy is near - that's how you avoid those pesky AoOs when you don't like to cast defensively. It's even explicitly possible to use an unarmed attack or natural weapon to discharge a spell, dealing additional damage in the process. What remains to be determined (probably by the individual DM) is whether the vine can be considered a part of the body.
Kamikaze Chicken 07-12-07, 09:56 AM	i personally dont see a problem with this house rule. The graft doesnt explicitly say it can, but it doesnt say it can't. Most dms i have played with would probably allow this so long as you held the charge for one turn. KAMIKAZE! :chicken: out.
MageED 07-12-07, 11:27 AM	Thanks for the input all
The Brat Prince 07-12-07, 03:12 PM	Though it's not strictly related to the OP, I have anotherquestion about the Grapplling Vine. IIRC, it can be used to drag an opponent towards you, but for some reason can't support your weight as a climbing aid. Does that seem a little odd to anyone else?
Cifer 07-12-07, 07:56 PM	IIRC, it can be used to drag an opponent towards you, but for some reason can't support your weight as a climbing aid. Does that seem a little odd to anyone else? No, why? Look e.g. at the lifting tables: You can lift a weight corresponding to your strength, but you can drag five times of that along the ground.