improved natural attack + battlefist for warforged monks [Archive] - Wizards Community

improved natural attack + battlefist for warforged monks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BlindGuardian
05-15-07, 02:52 AM hi!

The description of the battlefist attached component of a warforged says: "A warforged monk who uses a battlefist deals increased unarmed damage as though the character were one size larger than ACTUAL...".

So, if I have a warforged monk with improved natural attack (unarmed strike) and he has a battlefist attached to it, does he do damage as a huge monk? (do the two size increment stack?)

thanks!
Belabras
05-15-07, 03:03 AM No. Improved Natural Attack does not increase your size catagory, only damage. However, an Enlarged Warforged with a Battlefist would go up two damage catagories.
crow04
05-16-07, 12:40 AM I disagree with the above poster, I see no reason for them not to stack.
Belabras
05-16-07, 04:08 AM I didn't say the two bonuses don't stack, just that they have different effects. The aforesaid warforged would do damage as a Large Monk who has moved one damage catagory higher than his level would indicate. This is not the same thing as a Huge Monk.
RogueElement
05-16-07, 04:10 AM I have to agree with the above poster (crow04) who disagrees with the poster above him. :D

I've seen two DMs that Ok'd stacking Improved Natural Attack and battlefists resulting in Huge damage (which ironically is not that huge...averaging to just a couple of extra hp per attack).
Belabras
05-16-07, 12:19 PM Maybe I'm not being clear. Lets break it down.

Improved Natural Attack moves the 'forged monk's unarmed strike damage up one catagory in the monk damage progression.

The Battlefist allows the 'forged monk to use the Large creature scale of damage for monks, increasing his damage as well.

So what we have is a warforged that is treated as a Large creature for determining what scale to use for his unarmed strike damage, and who has progressed one catagory ahead of his level due to a feat.

This is not the same as using the Huge damage table, as it scales faster (much like the Large table scales faster than the Medium table).

That's how it works according to RAW folks.
Cifer
05-16-07, 02:51 PM Now just enlarge it and have fun with your own gargantuan damage monk. Oh, wait - the spell is called enlarge Person, so you'd probably need a psionic expansion... which of course means either an item or a dip into psychic warrior (and a wisdom of 11)
Kreistor2
05-16-07, 07:24 PM Okay, answer me this:

Do you want to be attacked by something that stacks these? I'm the DM. I've got a lot more warforged than you do. Anything you can do, I can throw at you.

So, seriously, do you want me to double stack damage size increases? I could do that to a Huge creature to get colossal damage. Hmmm... a crit on that might kill you in a single blow... that's cool, isn't it?

Look, this is what it comes down to. For a fight to be fun, it has to last. Killing the enemy in one or two rounds isn't, in the end, fun, is it? Look back at the best fights you ever participated in. Odds are, they lasted eight, nine rounds. By amping up damage, you deal more damage faster, but to compensate, I as the DM have to do similar things. For you to receive XP, the fight had to be threatening. The only source of that threat when the monster lasts only a short while is to do exactly what you did: amp up damage on the monsters. When I do that, you receive more damage per round, and a critical at that point is murderous. You are, in the end, killing your own character by focusing on increased damage, because that's the only way to make the fight a challenge.

Stop pushing for stacking like this. It's going to murder your character.
Cifer
05-16-07, 08:07 PM Do you want to be attacked by something that stacks these?
Oh, most definitely. When you really want to use monks against me, they better be dealing at least some damage - almost un-improveable 1D10+Str at 11th level is a joke. Additionally, I'll be happy to sell all those enchanted battlefists you throw our way.
Sorry, but when I want power, I'll still play a cleric, druid, artificer or wizard. Monks are still far, far behind them.

Your question strikes somewhat at the heart of the idea of optimization: Can there be any sense in making a character stronger when the individual challenges are supposed to be challenging no matter how strong you are? And if not, why not just play commoner1-20, since all threats are adjusted to the player level anyway?
BlindGuardian
05-17-07, 12:43 AM I just want to know what the rules says. good roleplaying is another story, which can't be answered that easy.

belabras: the feat "improved natural attack" says:
"the damage of this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature's size had increased by one category".
WolfHati
05-17-07, 01:16 AM If I allowed INA to apply to unarmed strikes, then I would let them stack.

But I don't...

Of course I also don't disallow a clever monk enchanting a strip of cloth with weapon enhancements and wrapping it around his hand, or coiling silver wire around his fist to beat DR. So I see no real reason to allow something like INA.

Furthermore this monk is using a battlefist which can be made from special materials or enchanted as a weapon anyway.
Kreistor2
05-17-07, 08:21 AM Oh, most definitely. When you really want to use monks against me, they better be dealing at least some damage - almost un-improveable 1D10+Str at 11th level is a joke. Additionally, I'll be happy to sell all those enchanted battlefists you throw our way.

Perhaps you understand... what's good for the monk is good for the barbarian and his weapons. I'm talking about stacking size bonuses in every case, not just the monk. There's also monkey fist and powerful build for more size stacking insanity.
crow04
05-18-07, 12:22 AM Perhaps you understand... what's good for the monk is good for the barbarian and his weapons. I'm talking about stacking size bonuses in every case, not just the monk. There's also monkey fist and powerful build for more size stacking insanity.

Due to the way powerful build, and monkey grip are worded, they do not stack. Rather than give a size bump to the weapons you can weild, they both let you use a weapon one size larger than you. However, even if they do stack, it's hardly broken. If you want size boosting maddness, you need to go psionic, where some king of smack(claw fighting psi-wars) builds end up counting as two or three sizes above colosluial for damage purposes
BlindGuardian
05-18-07, 04:33 AM yeah, a warforged monk with a battlefist, INA, and the expansion psionic power augmented would do 12d8 + str damage at 20th level.
Launchpad
05-18-07, 12:50 PM We had a warforge monk (with a monk of zurkon presitage class, who was actually from a offshoot of the silver fists who had been trained by a Khal.) who did just that, that was a definite power character. With the composite armor and the wisdom and dex and monk bonus on him and an armor bonus he had 30+ AC. He also had battlefist with expansion that made him deadly. We also had a warforge artificer that would cast bane on his battle fist. A extremly deadly combo, that was also hard to hit with spells because of the high saving throws and evasion. Didn't know about Improved natural attack though.
kentonblack
05-23-07, 07:32 PM We had a warforge monk (with a monk of zurkon presitage class, who was actually from a offshoot of the silver fists who had been trained by a Khal.) who did just that, that was a definite power character. With the composite armor and the wisdom and dex and monk bonus on him and an armor bonus he had 30+ AC. He also had battlefist with expansion that made him deadly. We also had a warforge artificer that would cast bane on his battle fist. A extremly deadly combo, that was also hard to hit with spells because of the high saving throws and evasion. Didn't know about Improved natural attack though.

god I hate to burst your bubble buddy, but I think he may not have been so powerful as you think. whne a monk wears armor(like, say warforged composite plating) he loses a few things. Flurry of blows...wisdom to Ac....class bonus to ac....you see what I mean? its a tradeoff.
WolfHati
05-23-07, 07:38 PM A warforged's standard composite plating does not count as armor. It does take up the armor slot and provide an armor bonus, but it is not counted as even light armor.
Dr. Benway
05-23-07, 07:47 PM What he said...:rolleyes:

DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
kentonblack
05-24-07, 01:32 AM ah bugger, i thought he meant his warforged's adamantine plating.

my bad.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlindGuardian 05-15-07, 02:52 AM	hi! The description of the battlefist attached component of a warforged says: "A warforged monk who uses a battlefist deals increased unarmed damage as though the character were one size larger than ACTUAL...". So, if I have a warforged monk with improved natural attack (unarmed strike) and he has a battlefist attached to it, does he do damage as a huge monk? (do the two size increment stack?) thanks!
Belabras 05-15-07, 03:03 AM	No. Improved Natural Attack does not increase your size catagory, only damage. However, an Enlarged Warforged with a Battlefist would go up two damage catagories.
crow04 05-16-07, 12:40 AM	I disagree with the above poster, I see no reason for them not to stack.
Belabras 05-16-07, 04:08 AM	I didn't say the two bonuses don't stack, just that they have different effects. The aforesaid warforged would do damage as a Large Monk who has moved one damage catagory higher than his level would indicate. This is not the same thing as a Huge Monk.
RogueElement 05-16-07, 04:10 AM	I have to agree with the above poster (crow04) who disagrees with the poster above him. :D I've seen two DMs that Ok'd stacking Improved Natural Attack and battlefists resulting in Huge damage (which ironically is not that huge...averaging to just a couple of extra hp per attack).
Belabras 05-16-07, 12:19 PM	Maybe I'm not being clear. Lets break it down. Improved Natural Attack moves the 'forged monk's unarmed strike damage up one catagory in the monk damage progression. The Battlefist allows the 'forged monk to use the Large creature scale of damage for monks, increasing his damage as well. So what we have is a warforged that is treated as a Large creature for determining what scale to use for his unarmed strike damage, and who has progressed one catagory ahead of his level due to a feat. This is not the same as using the Huge damage table, as it scales faster (much like the Large table scales faster than the Medium table). That's how it works according to RAW folks.
Cifer 05-16-07, 02:51 PM	Now just enlarge it and have fun with your own gargantuan damage monk. Oh, wait - the spell is called enlarge Person, so you'd probably need a psionic expansion... which of course means either an item or a dip into psychic warrior (and a wisdom of 11)
Kreistor2 05-16-07, 07:24 PM	Okay, answer me this: Do you want to be attacked by something that stacks these? I'm the DM. I've got a lot more warforged than you do. Anything you can do, I can throw at you. So, seriously, do you want me to double stack damage size increases? I could do that to a Huge creature to get colossal damage. Hmmm... a crit on that might kill you in a single blow... that's cool, isn't it? Look, this is what it comes down to. For a fight to be fun, it has to last. Killing the enemy in one or two rounds isn't, in the end, fun, is it? Look back at the best fights you ever participated in. Odds are, they lasted eight, nine rounds. By amping up damage, you deal more damage faster, but to compensate, I as the DM have to do similar things. For you to receive XP, the fight had to be threatening. The only source of that threat when the monster lasts only a short while is to do exactly what you did: amp up damage on the monsters. When I do that, you receive more damage per round, and a critical at that point is murderous. You are, in the end, killing your own character by focusing on increased damage, because that's the only way to make the fight a challenge. Stop pushing for stacking like this. It's going to murder your character.
Cifer 05-16-07, 08:07 PM	Do you want to be attacked by something that stacks these? Oh, most definitely. When you really want to use monks against me, they better be dealing at least some damage - almost un-improveable 1D10+Str at 11th level is a joke. Additionally, I'll be happy to sell all those enchanted battlefists you throw our way. Sorry, but when I want power, I'll still play a cleric, druid, artificer or wizard. Monks are still far, far behind them. Your question strikes somewhat at the heart of the idea of optimization: Can there be any sense in making a character stronger when the individual challenges are supposed to be challenging no matter how strong you are? And if not, why not just play commoner1-20, since all threats are adjusted to the player level anyway?
BlindGuardian 05-17-07, 12:43 AM	I just want to know what the rules says. good roleplaying is another story, which can't be answered that easy. belabras: the feat "improved natural attack" says: "the damage of this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature's size had increased by one category".
WolfHati 05-17-07, 01:16 AM	If I allowed INA to apply to unarmed strikes, then I would let them stack. But I don't... Of course I also don't disallow a clever monk enchanting a strip of cloth with weapon enhancements and wrapping it around his hand, or coiling silver wire around his fist to beat DR. So I see no real reason to allow something like INA. Furthermore this monk is using a battlefist which can be made from special materials or enchanted as a weapon anyway.
Kreistor2 05-17-07, 08:21 AM	Oh, most definitely. When you really want to use monks against me, they better be dealing at least some damage - almost un-improveable 1D10+Str at 11th level is a joke. Additionally, I'll be happy to sell all those enchanted battlefists you throw our way. Perhaps you understand... what's good for the monk is good for the barbarian and his weapons. I'm talking about stacking size bonuses in every case, not just the monk. There's also monkey fist and powerful build for more size stacking insanity.
crow04 05-18-07, 12:22 AM	Perhaps you understand... what's good for the monk is good for the barbarian and his weapons. I'm talking about stacking size bonuses in every case, not just the monk. There's also monkey fist and powerful build for more size stacking insanity. Due to the way powerful build, and monkey grip are worded, they do not stack. Rather than give a size bump to the weapons you can weild, they both let you use a weapon one size larger than you. However, even if they do stack, it's hardly broken. If you want size boosting maddness, you need to go psionic, where some king of smack(claw fighting psi-wars) builds end up counting as two or three sizes above colosluial for damage purposes
BlindGuardian 05-18-07, 04:33 AM	yeah, a warforged monk with a battlefist, INA, and the expansion psionic power augmented would do 12d8 + str damage at 20th level.
Launchpad 05-18-07, 12:50 PM	We had a warforge monk (with a monk of zurkon presitage class, who was actually from a offshoot of the silver fists who had been trained by a Khal.) who did just that, that was a definite power character. With the composite armor and the wisdom and dex and monk bonus on him and an armor bonus he had 30+ AC. He also had battlefist with expansion that made him deadly. We also had a warforge artificer that would cast bane on his battle fist. A extremly deadly combo, that was also hard to hit with spells because of the high saving throws and evasion. Didn't know about Improved natural attack though.
kentonblack 05-23-07, 07:32 PM	We had a warforge monk (with a monk of zurkon presitage class, who was actually from a offshoot of the silver fists who had been trained by a Khal.) who did just that, that was a definite power character. With the composite armor and the wisdom and dex and monk bonus on him and an armor bonus he had 30+ AC. He also had battlefist with expansion that made him deadly. We also had a warforge artificer that would cast bane on his battle fist. A extremly deadly combo, that was also hard to hit with spells because of the high saving throws and evasion. Didn't know about Improved natural attack though. god I hate to burst your bubble buddy, but I think he may not have been so powerful as you think. whne a monk wears armor(like, say warforged composite plating) he loses a few things. Flurry of blows...wisdom to Ac....class bonus to ac....you see what I mean? its a tradeoff.
WolfHati 05-23-07, 07:38 PM	A warforged's standard composite plating does not count as armor. It does take up the armor slot and provide an armor bonus, but it is not counted as even light armor.
Dr. Benway 05-23-07, 07:47 PM	What he said...:rolleyes: DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
kentonblack 05-24-07, 01:32 AM	ah bugger, i thought he meant his warforged's adamantine plating. my bad.