Post/Author/DateTime	Post
krappleby2 10-10-07, 06:04 PM	Hi all, i am looking for your advice, i am a dm, of a campaign in Eberron, and currently have 5 players who are deep in a home made campaign at the moment, this question is regards to one of my players They are looking to purchase a pistol, which according to the book in question is priced at approximately 350gp, now, instead of using the normal gunpowder, he is wanting to bind 3 elementites into the pistol, in the following manner. 1. fire elementite as the hammer (this is just for an idea) 2. a water elementite as the power 3. a fire elementite in the guns tubing now in principle this is a good idea, initially the fire elementite in the hammer, would hit the water elementite, createing a large burst of steam, which in turn would push the projectile from the weapon, The second elementite in the barrel, would again increase the steam by hittin the now slowly devaporating water, increaseing the velocity of the projectile Now, the player is not wanting to increase the power of the weapon and to leave it as the standard 1d10 weapon. which is fine with me.. Now the discussion.. my player believes that the cost of the weapon should stay the same 350gp, as the weapon is not gaining any special abillities. however i beleive the weapon should be a lot more, due to the time, and spells cast to bind the elementites. my player, is happy to pay 350gp per gun, i have informed him that i am happy for him to pay 900gp per gun, my question.. which do you believe is fair, and why.? this would really help our situation, and my player will also be reading this.. i think i have explained the situation well and unbyast.. your comments would be appreciated. cheers
Revvecor 10-10-07, 06:25 PM	I have two problems with your idea of the gun; 1) The water elemental seem like it would be destroyed by the act of firing the weapon. It seem like it would be simpler to just use a single air elemental to impart momentum to the projectile. 2) The cost of binding an elemental would be in the thousands of gold per bound elemental. So unless Cannith has a factory mass production it, very few people could buy it.
krappleby2 10-10-07, 06:29 PM	ok.. in response to your response lol. firslty i am not one for sticking to the rules so to speak, so i dont mind the situation about it killing the air elementite. also with regards to this, i informed the player that the solution you give i would be happy with. for the 350gp.. but as their is three and it is differnt, then the price would increase. secondly, we are not talking about an elemental, we are talking about elementites, a great deal smaller than an elemental. i have already stated i will except the request. but it is the price we are looking into.. cheers
Edymnion 10-10-07, 07:29 PM	secondly, we are not talking about an elemental, we are talking about elementites, a great deal smaller than an elemental.By the rules, it doesn't matter, it would use the same process, and hence would be tens of thousands of gold, and only the gnomes would have a chance in khyber of actually pulling it off. That said, whats wrong with a hand crossbow? Or a wand? Why do they insist on having a gun in a setting that was specifically designed NOT to have them?
R4za 10-11-07, 11:15 AM	I'd say it's a nice enough idea, but it ought to make for a weapon that is both much more powerful and much more expensive than normal. Suggest that use a normal pistol tirgger by something less advanced for now, and use this as an idea for an upgrade later on in the game.
WebJiCi 10-12-07, 07:35 AM	That said, whats wrong with a hand crossbow? Or a wand? Why do they insist on having a gun in a setting that was specifically designed NOT to have them?Let's see: 1- hand crossbow: requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency, deals only 1d4 points of damage, needs another feat AND a hand free to get multiple attacks. 2- wand: requires some spells to work; your fighter, barbarian or rogue can't even use it without Use Magic Device. Wands are only useful to spellcasters who don't want to use spell slots. If wands were usable to everyone, but at a steep price, say 10 times the normal price, then I don't think Krappleby2 would ask for suggestions for a wand-like device using elementals. 3- It's his choice. If he wants firearms in Eberron, then so be it. There are airships, trains, elevators and suspended cable cars, so mind telling me why not elemental weaponry ? Think about it: a nation discovers a new way to bind elementals. We're talking about a new way to re-ignite the war. Hi all, i am looking for your advice, i am a dm, of a campaign in Eberron, and currently have 5 players who are deep in a home made campaign at the moment, this question is regards to one of my players They are looking to purchase a pistol, which according to the book in question is priced at approximately 350gp, now, instead of using the normal gunpowder, he is wanting to bind 3 elementites into the pistol, in the following manner. 1. fire elementite as the hammer (this is just for an idea) 2. a water elementite as the power 3. a fire elementite in the guns tubing now in principle this is a good idea, initially the fire elementite in the hammer, would hit the water elementite, createing a large burst of steam, which in turn would push the projectile from the weapon, The second elementite in the barrel, would again increase the steam by hittin the now slowly devaporating water, increaseing the velocity of the projectile Now, the player is not wanting to increase the power of the weapon and to leave it as the standard 1d10 weapon. which is fine with me.. Now the discussion.. my player believes that the cost of the weapon should stay the same 350gp, as the weapon is not gaining any special abillities. however i believe the weapon should be a lot more, due to the time, and spells cast to bind the elementites. my player, is happy to pay 350gp per gun, i have informed him that i am happy for him to pay 900gp per gun, my question.. which do you believe is fair, and why.? this would really help our situation, and my player will also be reading this.. i think i have explained the situation well and unbyast.. your comments would be appreciated. cheersWhat in the world ? 900 gp ? Woaw, crank it up to like 30,000 gp. That's a very powerful and expensive item you're dealing with. I think you could settle for any kind of elementals, not just to elementite swarms. The thing that strikes me is a steam-powered cannon. Have one fire elemental creature heats up the water created by a water elemental, and then release a bullet in a jet of steam. However, it takes time to build up steam. So the strength of the fire elemental (HD) could determine the recovery time, while the strength of the water elemental (HD) could determine the range increment. So a bound elementite swarm would have a different effect than a Large bound elemental.
Arryn 10-12-07, 07:46 AM	Why do they insist on having a gun in a setting that was specifically designed NOT to have them? On what page in what book was it stated that Eberron was specifically designed NOT to have guns?
Rekko 10-12-07, 12:54 PM	Here's a thread where a very similar topic was discussed: Pistols (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=882029). There's been alot of arguing between people against and favorable to pistols in Eberron. As Edy said, people against mostly tell you to use wands or hand crossbows. On the other hand, people favorable to the idea have brainstormed different possible ways to introduce pistols into Eberron and how they would be made. I leave you read the thread on your own, it's not that long. And I even encourage you to post your idea there and debate your price there since it's mostly the same topic. As for pricing, it all depends on how you want your Pistols in Eberron. Are they a rare weapon that few can craft and/or use, a new or old technology, is it powered by elementals, spells or gun powder, could it be an eldritch machine? Do you want pistols to be accessible to anyone, a PC-only weapon, or is it the new secret device of a house or nation? is it a warforged component? etc. As you can see, tons of questions need answering before pricing the pistols. Rekko
Edymnion 10-12-07, 01:07 PM	On what page in what book was it stated that Eberron was specifically designed NOT to have guns?On what page in what book was it stated that Eberron was specifically designed NOT to have the starship Enterprise doing a trench run on a zombie Cthulu's bunghole? Basically, it comes down to two things. Nowhere in any Eberron book are guns ever mentioned in any way, and Keith Baker has said on the boards that he doesn't like the idea of guns in Eberron. Anyway, logically, why would something like a gun exist in a setting where magic is basically seen in the same light as technology? What role does a gun fill that an enchanted hand crossbow does not? Or a wand? Even ignoring that for a moment, why would someone create a magical device that uses mechanical processes (expanding steam) to push a bullet out of the gun? Why not just move the projectile directly? Basically, I have yet to see any reason why anything we would think of as a gun would exist. There is absolutely nothing a gun can do that a hand crossbow can't do, its just people don't think its "cool" enough to use. So yeah, give your player a mundane gun. Give them a hand crossbow, and just tell them it looks like a gun. They get their little action hero movie kick, and you don't have to worry about rewriting a hundred plus years of warfare to compensate for guns in the setting. :)
Arryn 10-12-07, 01:52 PM	Nowhere in any Eberron book are guns ever mentioned in any way, and Keith Baker has said on the boards that he doesn't like the idea of guns in Eberron. Look, I respect Keith as much as the next guy, but Keith doesn't own Eberron... WOTC does. Now his opinion carries a lot more weight than the average poster but you make it sound like there's a rule prohibiting guns when there isn't. That's why I asked the question. (Even if there were, anyone could just take a trick from you and tape over the rule and BOOM! guns are allowed.) The thing that I really don't understand is... why do you seem to get so upset about all this? I don't know if you do this on purpose, but your posts tend to have a pretty condescending tone to them. It's almost as if you're trying to say "I'm the most hardcore gamer in all of Eberron and if you don't play it EXACTLY like I play it... You're wrong." Man... that's just silly. People are allowed to have their own takes on things and if you don't agree with it fine... but don't belittle people for it. Sometimes you come across as the Eberron bully who picks on people because they dare to do something so sacrilegious as to introduce firearms to YOUR setting. I mean really... who cares? Look, I don't know you and I don't know where you are coming from when you write your posts. If you don't realize that you come across as condescending, then no worries. FYI... sometimes you come across as condescending... you might want to look into that. If, however, you are doing it on purpose, if you mean to belittle people who dare to have a different take on Eberron than you... well then I have some news for you: Nobody cares how you run YOUR Eberron... they care how they run THEIR Eberron. These boards are supposed to be a forum for people to share ideas and opinions. Your ideas and opinions are welcome... your condescending attitude is not. Now... back to the topic at hand. I think that to let your player have the gun using those mechanics for only 900 gold is problematic. One of the balancing factors of firearms in D&D is that gunpowder is expensive and hard to come by. Take away that restriction and you've got a really powerful ranged weapon that you are basically giving away for free. That's not to say that you shouldn't allow your player to have a gun that uses this mechanic... but consider this option: Have your player find the gun through the course of his adventures. What he doesn't know about it is that it's a prototype that was stolen from a) Zilargo or b) House Cannith or c) both. Sure, the character now has a very useful and deadly ranged weapon... what he doesn't know is that the original owners want it back. So now he's got either the Trust or Merrix d'Cannith (or both) looking for him. Devious? You bet... A little more balanced? Probably.
Rekko 10-12-07, 02:08 PM	Note that pistols cost 250gp in the DMG, muskets 500gp. It's on page 145. Mechanically they are crossbows that deals more damage and require the exotic weapon profiency(firearms) feat. Moreover, they can't be used while the powder or gun is wet.
Salla 10-12-07, 07:12 PM	Look, I respect Keith as much as the next guy, but Keith doesn't own Eberron... WOTC does. Now his opinion carries a lot more weight than the average poster but you make it sound like there's a rule prohibiting guns when there isn't. That's why I asked the question. (Even if there were, anyone could just take a trick from you and tape over the rule and BOOM! guns are allowed.) The thing that I really don't understand is... why do you seem to get so upset about all this? I don't know if you do this on purpose, but your posts tend to have a pretty condescending tone to them. It's almost as if you're trying to say "I'm the most hardcore gamer in all of Eberron and if you don't play it EXACTLY like I play it... You're wrong." Man... that's just silly. People are allowed to have their own takes on things and if you don't agree with it fine... but don't belittle people for it. Sometimes you come across as the Eberron bully who picks on people because they dare to do something so sacrilegious as to introduce firearms to YOUR setting. I mean really... who cares? Look, I don't know you and I don't know where you are coming from when you write your posts. If you don't realize that you come across as condescending, then no worries. FYI... sometimes you come across as condescending... you might want to look into that. If, however, you are doing it on purpose, if you mean to belittle people who dare to have a different take on Eberron than you... well then I have some news for you: Nobody cares how you run YOUR Eberron... they care how they run THEIR Eberron. These boards are supposed to be a forum for people to share ideas and opinions. Your ideas an opinions are welcome... your condescending attitude is not. Seconded.
Jello_Ninja 10-15-07, 11:20 AM	Yippie for my first post I like the idea of guns in eberron but instead of bullets or elementals, think more in the lines of wand pistols and a staff rifle. Or even better how about a gun like Jean Starwinds caster pistol from Outlaw Star :dancin:
krappleby2 10-15-07, 05:58 PM	to make a point, i dont really like the idea of guns in eberron myself. i dont think the world is set for them, i hate them myself. but this guy is persistant. and i dont want to argue with him, so i dont mind. i was planning on using some sort of adventure involved in obtainning the guns. but i have to work that out. i dont like guns in a fantasy setting.. my fantasy settings is magic and the like, not engineering and science, which is guns. i think it ruins the game, guns are for 2nd worlds war, napoleonic wars, that should be where they are left. thanks for the info anyway. it seems like the cost is way to low.. maybe he wont get hte guns afterall.. :) cheers
Jello_Ninja 10-17-07, 12:00 PM	you really shouldn't use guns in eberron in the traditional sense of the term. You could however use what i suggested because it works trust; I mean honestly whats cooler than a fighter with a pistol or rifle (aka wand and staff guns) belching fireballs across a battlefield! Plus there is always my other idea Jean Starwinds caster pistol which fires magicly charged spell rounds. Another point is the fact that as far as I'm concerned niether of these ideas should require anything that a few points in Use Maic Devise so give a wand gun and see what he thinks.:lightbulb
Mindolin 10-17-07, 12:25 PM	I may be missing something, as I don't play in Eberron alot, but what difference does it make if the weapon is powered by elementals or not? I can have a crossbow with a air elemental bound to it to launch the bolt, but as long as it doesn't actually give me any advantages in game, then why should the price go up? The price should be left as is, as it doesn't seem to give any advantage to the user as it is described.
krappleby2 10-17-07, 04:54 PM	ok mindolin, lets look at it this way you go to the supermarket, and buy a one man meal that is produced by machines.. takes less than a minute per meal.. costs you 60 pence or 60 dollars whatever now.. you go to the restaraunt, and buy exactly the same meal. will it cost you the same.. answer NO... why : because ti took several hours to prepare. hense the additional cost. this is just one example
WebJiCi 10-17-07, 08:57 PM	I may be missing something, as I don't play in Eberron alot, but what difference does it make if the weapon is powered by elementals or not? I can have a crossbow with a air elemental bound to it to launch the bolt, but as long as it doesn't actually give me any advantages in game, then why should the price go up? The price should be left as is, as it doesn't seem to give any advantage to the user as it is described.What makes the item expensive is the price of a Khyber dragonshard. Those are rare and hard to find, hence the high price.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 10-17-07, 10:46 PM	It's a bad idea. Simple as that.
eehamburg 10-18-07, 09:08 AM	Why not simply play d20 Modern if that is what you are after? Guns are a by-product of industrialization and mechanization. If both of these have been supplanted by the magic and now doing magic and magic abilities perform these functions then the advents that would lead to guns would not occur. It just sounds like an idea that is wanted because someone wants to have guns without any real reason for them to exist in the setting.
krappleby2 10-18-07, 11:40 AM	What makes the item expensive is the price of a Khyber dragonshard. Those are rare and hard to find, hence the high price. i was going to plan on making them go and get some dragonshards, out of kyber, for the guy to work with, but more than was needed, hense a cheaper price.. as they have also done him a favour.
Arryn 10-18-07, 12:34 PM	Why not simply play d20 Modern if that is what you are after? Guns are a by-product of industrialization and mechanization. If both of these have been supplanted by the magic and now doing magic and magic abilities perform these functions then the advents that would lead to guns would not occur. It just sounds like an idea that is wanted because someone wants to have guns without any real reason for them to exist in the setting. I'm probably going to mis-quote this, but there was an old saying in the Wild West: "God created man... and Colonel Colt made him equal." Yes it is true that magic has, for the most part, supplanted technology in Eberron. The problem with magic, however, is that in order to make it work you generally need magic users. Truth is that by the time an average fighter could put enough Ranks into Use Magic Device to make a wand gun worthwhile... he'll probably be able to do more damage with his +3 Vorpal Bastard Sword. Now I understand that Eberron has a higher percentage of magic users than most settings, but I'm betting it is still a small number compared to the entire population of Khorvaire. This is why I think they might develop firearms; Generals are always going to find a way to give their soldiers an extra edge. A 1st level Warrior armed with a pistol or a rifle equals the damage output of a mid level Sorcerer. Why wouldn't they try to develop guns if it could make their foot soldiers more deadly? Now granted, the gun described by the OP would not fall under this category. It would be too expensive to mass produce and would not be a feasable weapon to give to a common solder... but do you really think that would stop someone from TRYING to develop one? (That is why I made the suggestion of having the gun be a stolen prototype.) Look, I don't particularly care one way or the other if someone allows firearms into their Eberron, but I just can't believe that people wouldn't try and develop them just because magic exists. History has shown us that just because we have a good way of killing people, we'll still look for OTHER ways of killing people. All you have to do is tune into C-Span and watch Congress debate the Defense budget to know that this is true.
eehamburg 10-18-07, 03:48 PM	Arryn: You are applying OUR logic from OUR world to Eberron. THEY may not think the same way and THEY may have different thoughts about it.
Arryn 10-18-07, 04:14 PM	I'm not sure how any of that logic would apply differently in Eberron... They did just finish a war that lasted 100 years, I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that they would entertain all options when it comes to waging warfare. Now keep in mind that I am not saying that guns should have existed during the war... none of the books talk about guns so it is safe to assume they were not used during the War. What I am trying to say is that it's easy to believe that someone tried to develop those types of weapons and for whatever reason (cost, difficulty to produce, whatever) decided not to mass produce them. I don't think guns should be common in Eberron, but I'm saying that there probably are some "out there" for adventuring parties to stumble across. As always it's the DM's decision. I'm just trying to present a different point of view.
skrap-san 11-12-07, 07:07 AM	There is certain ways to make the guns less unbalanced. 1) misfire rating: Works the same way as improved critical etc, only it improves the %chance that you fail. So a misfire rating of 2 means a 1 and a 2 on a d20 is fumble and something bad happens. For more rules on misfire ratings check out the world of warcraft campaign setting from swords and sorcery. (although the guns there are highly unbalanced). 2) even if the weapon has an elemental as propelling unit thing it has to have bullets of some kind. Just say it has to be dragonshards or something expensive. 3) ad a reload time that is a bit steep, but not insane. (crossbow times should be a good guide). this should be possible to improve with the rapid reload feats. Now for some reason i keep seeing that dude with his summoning shots from Final Fantasy unlimited
pyro_mania1803 11-12-07, 06:09 PM	I posted this on another thread, pick up Iron Kingdoms. It has a full section on guns, also there is a nifty class called a gun mage, also there is an arcane mechanic. One of my friends combined Iron Kingdoms and Eberron and it was a great game.