Question about Dual Battlefists [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question about Dual Battlefists [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkPawn
07-26-07, 01:33 PM A player in my campaign wants to have a warforged with two battlefists. That is it, no other weapons. So slam will be his primary attack.

Could someone please take the time to explain the mechanics for this. Like what bonuses to hit on BAB would be, how many attacks, any minuses for natural attacks...etc..

Thank you in advance.
Kinger
07-26-07, 06:39 PM You have no idea the can of wyrms you've just opened...

Seriously though, here's my view. I believe it is shared by many on the boards. I know it's disputed by many others.

A Battlefist is less like a magic weapon (ie: a +1 longsword) and more like a wonderous item (ie: Gauntlets of Ogre Power). You do not attack with the battlefist, you attack with a slam, which the battlefist increases to a d8 in damage. Thus, your full attack would be a single Slam at your ordinairy melee attack modifier plus any bonus from the battlefist.

As a result, you do not get any benefit from wearing two battlefists. You could perhaps allow him, if he has battlefists with different abilities (one a +1 Flaming, the other a +1 Ghost Touch), the option to choose which effect is applied whenever he makes a slam. I'm unsure of the rules for this. It may be disallowed (similar to how you can't have one Gauntlet of Ogre Power and one Glove of Dexterity and choose which one applies when). If there are rules for this, or rules pertaining to similar circumstances (2 Gloves of Storing? A Glove of Storing and a Gauntlet of Rusting?), I'd be interested if someone could point me to them.

A feat in Races of Eberron allows a second slam (called Second Slam of all things), which I'd recommend your player investigate. Similarly, Jaws of Death (from the same book) gives a Bite attack as a secondary natural weapon, which is always useful in melee combat. Secondary natural attacks always suffer a -5 penalty to attack, and only ever get x0.5 strength mod to damage.

A Warforged with a +4 strength modifier, +6 Base Attack Bonus, +1 battlefist, and Jaws of Death, may do the following:

Standard action: Attack once with Slam at +11 (+4 str, +6 BaB, +1 enhancement), dealing 1d8+7 damage (+6 1.5str, +1 enh)
OR
Attack once with Bite at +5, dealing 1d6+2 damage (+2 0.5str)

Full Attack action: Attack once with Slam at +11, dealing 1d8+7, AND Bite once at +5, dealing 1d6+2. He receives no iterative attacks due to a higher Base Attack Bonus because Slams and Bites are natural weapons.

If the above warforged were to wield a longsword, he may do the following:

Standard action: Attack with the longsword (using two hands for 1.5 str to damage)
OR
attack with a Slam, as above
OR
bite, as above

Full Attack Action: Attack with the longsword two-handed at +10/+5, dealing 1d8+6 damage, AND Bite at +5 for 1d6+2
OR
Attack with the longsword one-handed at +10/+5, dealing 1d8+4 damage, AND slam at +6 for 1d8+3 (+2 0.5str, +1 enh), AND bite at +5 for 1d6+2.

Addendum: If your player wants to stick to the "fisticuffs" manner of fighting, and you go by my interpretation, suggest he wields a Spiked Gauntlet in his other hand. He can make the manufactured weapon attacks with the spiked gauntlet, then follow through with a nice finishing Slam.
DarkPawn
07-27-07, 02:34 PM You have no idea the can of wyrms you've just opened...

Seriously though, here's my view. I believe it is shared by many on the boards. I know it's disputed by many others.

A Battlefist is less like a magic weapon (ie: a +1 longsword) and more like a wonderous item (ie: Gauntlets of Ogre Power). You do not attack with the battlefist, you attack with a slam, which the battlefist increases to a d8 in damage. Thus, your full attack would be a single Slam at your ordinairy melee attack modifier plus any bonus from the battlefist.

As a result, you do not get any benefit from wearing two battlefists. You could perhaps allow him, if he has battlefists with different abilities (one a +1 Flaming, the other a +1 Ghost Touch), the option to choose which effect is applied whenever he makes a slam. I'm unsure of the rules for this. It may be disallowed (similar to how you can't have one Gauntlet of Ogre Power and one Glove of Dexterity and choose which one applies when). If there are rules for this, or rules pertaining to similar circumstances (2 Gloves of Storing? A Glove of Storing and a Gauntlet of Rusting?), I'd be interested if someone could point me to them.

A feat in Races of Eberron allows a second slam (called Second Slam of all things), which I'd recommend your player investigate. Similarly, Jaws of Death (from the same book) gives a Bite attack as a secondary natural weapon, which is always useful in melee combat. Secondary natural attacks always suffer a -5 penalty to attack, and only ever get x0.5 strength mod to damage.

A Warforged with a +4 strength modifier, +6 Base Attack Bonus, +1 battlefist, and Jaws of Death, may do the following:

Standard action: Attack once with Slam at +11 (+4 str, +6 BaB, +1 enhancement), dealing 1d8+7 damage (+6 1.5str, +1 enh)
OR
Attack once with Bite at +5, dealing 1d6+2 damage (+2 0.5str)

Full Attack action: Attack once with Slam at +11, dealing 1d8+7, AND Bite once at +5, dealing 1d6+2. He receives no iterative attacks due to a higher Base Attack Bonus because Slams and Bites are natural weapons.

If the above warforged were to wield a longsword, he may do the following:

Standard action: Attack with the longsword (using two hands for 1.5 str to damage)
OR
attack with a Slam, as above
OR
bite, as above

Full Attack Action: Attack with the longsword two-handed at +10/+5, dealing 1d8+6 damage, AND Bite at +5 for 1d6+2
OR
Attack with the longsword one-handed at +10/+5, dealing 1d8+4 damage, AND slam at +6 for 1d8+3 (+2 0.5str, +1 enh), AND bite at +5 for 1d6+2.

Addendum: If your player wants to stick to the "fisticuffs" manner of fighting, and you go by my interpretation, suggest he wields a Spiked Gauntlet in his other hand. He can make the manufactured weapon attacks with the spiked gauntlet, then follow through with a nice finishing Slam.

Thanks for the information. They were trying to tell me that when they got +6 BAB, they could slam twice with full BAB on both. This sounded wrong, and you've pretty clearly explained why it is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkPawn 07-26-07, 01:33 PM	A player in my campaign wants to have a warforged with two battlefists. That is it, no other weapons. So slam will be his primary attack. Could someone please take the time to explain the mechanics for this. Like what bonuses to hit on BAB would be, how many attacks, any minuses for natural attacks...etc.. Thank you in advance.
Kinger 07-26-07, 06:39 PM	You have no idea the can of wyrms you've just opened... Seriously though, here's my view. I believe it is shared by many on the boards. I know it's disputed by many others. A Battlefist is less like a magic weapon (ie: a +1 longsword) and more like a wonderous item (ie: Gauntlets of Ogre Power). You do not attack with the battlefist, you attack with a slam, which the battlefist increases to a d8 in damage. Thus, your full attack would be a single Slam at your ordinairy melee attack modifier plus any bonus from the battlefist. As a result, you do not get any benefit from wearing two battlefists. You could perhaps allow him, if he has battlefists with different abilities (one a +1 Flaming, the other a +1 Ghost Touch), the option to choose which effect is applied whenever he makes a slam. I'm unsure of the rules for this. It may be disallowed (similar to how you can't have one Gauntlet of Ogre Power and one Glove of Dexterity and choose which one applies when). If there are rules for this, or rules pertaining to similar circumstances (2 Gloves of Storing? A Glove of Storing and a Gauntlet of Rusting?), I'd be interested if someone could point me to them. A feat in Races of Eberron allows a second slam (called Second Slam of all things), which I'd recommend your player investigate. Similarly, Jaws of Death (from the same book) gives a Bite attack as a secondary natural weapon, which is always useful in melee combat. Secondary natural attacks always suffer a -5 penalty to attack, and only ever get x0.5 strength mod to damage. A Warforged with a +4 strength modifier, +6 Base Attack Bonus, +1 battlefist, and Jaws of Death, may do the following: Standard action: Attack once with Slam at +11 (+4 str, +6 BaB, +1 enhancement), dealing 1d8+7 damage (+6 1.5str, +1 enh) OR Attack once with Bite at +5, dealing 1d6+2 damage (+2 0.5str) Full Attack action: Attack once with Slam at +11, dealing 1d8+7, AND Bite once at +5, dealing 1d6+2. He receives no iterative attacks due to a higher Base Attack Bonus because Slams and Bites are natural weapons. If the above warforged were to wield a longsword, he may do the following: Standard action: Attack with the longsword (using two hands for 1.5 str to damage) OR attack with a Slam, as above OR bite, as above Full Attack Action: Attack with the longsword two-handed at +10/+5, dealing 1d8+6 damage, AND Bite at +5 for 1d6+2 OR Attack with the longsword one-handed at +10/+5, dealing 1d8+4 damage, AND slam at +6 for 1d8+3 (+2 0.5str, +1 enh), AND bite at +5 for 1d6+2. Addendum: If your player wants to stick to the "fisticuffs" manner of fighting, and you go by my interpretation, suggest he wields a Spiked Gauntlet in his other hand. He can make the manufactured weapon attacks with the spiked gauntlet, then follow through with a nice finishing Slam.
DarkPawn 07-27-07, 02:34 PM	You have no idea the can of wyrms you've just opened... Seriously though, here's my view. I believe it is shared by many on the boards. I know it's disputed by many others. A Battlefist is less like a magic weapon (ie: a +1 longsword) and more like a wonderous item (ie: Gauntlets of Ogre Power). You do not attack with the battlefist, you attack with a slam, which the battlefist increases to a d8 in damage. Thus, your full attack would be a single Slam at your ordinairy melee attack modifier plus any bonus from the battlefist. As a result, you do not get any benefit from wearing two battlefists. You could perhaps allow him, if he has battlefists with different abilities (one a +1 Flaming, the other a +1 Ghost Touch), the option to choose which effect is applied whenever he makes a slam. I'm unsure of the rules for this. It may be disallowed (similar to how you can't have one Gauntlet of Ogre Power and one Glove of Dexterity and choose which one applies when). If there are rules for this, or rules pertaining to similar circumstances (2 Gloves of Storing? A Glove of Storing and a Gauntlet of Rusting?), I'd be interested if someone could point me to them. A feat in Races of Eberron allows a second slam (called Second Slam of all things), which I'd recommend your player investigate. Similarly, Jaws of Death (from the same book) gives a Bite attack as a secondary natural weapon, which is always useful in melee combat. Secondary natural attacks always suffer a -5 penalty to attack, and only ever get x0.5 strength mod to damage. A Warforged with a +4 strength modifier, +6 Base Attack Bonus, +1 battlefist, and Jaws of Death, may do the following: Standard action: Attack once with Slam at +11 (+4 str, +6 BaB, +1 enhancement), dealing 1d8+7 damage (+6 1.5str, +1 enh) OR Attack once with Bite at +5, dealing 1d6+2 damage (+2 0.5str) Full Attack action: Attack once with Slam at +11, dealing 1d8+7, AND Bite once at +5, dealing 1d6+2. He receives no iterative attacks due to a higher Base Attack Bonus because Slams and Bites are natural weapons. If the above warforged were to wield a longsword, he may do the following: Standard action: Attack with the longsword (using two hands for 1.5 str to damage) OR attack with a Slam, as above OR bite, as above Full Attack Action: Attack with the longsword two-handed at +10/+5, dealing 1d8+6 damage, AND Bite at +5 for 1d6+2 OR Attack with the longsword one-handed at +10/+5, dealing 1d8+4 damage, AND slam at +6 for 1d8+3 (+2 0.5str, +1 enh), AND bite at +5 for 1d6+2. Addendum: If your player wants to stick to the "fisticuffs" manner of fighting, and you go by my interpretation, suggest he wields a Spiked Gauntlet in his other hand. He can make the manufactured weapon attacks with the spiked gauntlet, then follow through with a nice finishing Slam. Thanks for the information. They were trying to tell me that when they got +6 BAB, they could slam twice with full BAB on both. This sounded wrong, and you've pretty clearly explained why it is.