Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BrokenJade 06-03-07, 08:21 AM	This has kind of bothered m a little bit why cant i quickdraw a wand it is a weapon i am considered armed when holding a charged wand. Why do i have to have a level in a prestige class to do it. If any one has insights i would be most greatfull
JarHead031 06-03-07, 10:03 AM	Probably for "balance" reasons. I don't see why you can't. I believe one of the Complete books has a feat for quick drawing wands? If not, talk to your DM. In Eberron, taking the Quick Draw feat for wands is just so damn cool.
Edymnion 06-03-07, 03:09 PM	There's no reason at all to say that you can't do it. Just think of it as more of the PrC giving you a limited quick draw feat "for free".
RogueElement 06-03-07, 11:19 PM	The Quick Draw feat should work on wands as well as swords and flails. If your DM rules otherwise, it's probably time to find another DM.
Loki5654 06-05-07, 07:56 PM	Quick Draw [General] Prerequisite Base attack bonus +1. Benefit You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action. A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow). Normal Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action. Special A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feats. Draw or Sheathe a Weapon Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one. Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action. So, why do you think you can't Quick Draw wands?
BrokenJade 06-05-07, 10:02 PM	Sorry never saw that bit of goodness. It was just when i was talkin to my dm, this became a point of argument.
RogueElement 06-05-07, 10:49 PM	So, why do you think you can't Quick Draw wands? Because that's in the SRD and not the Player's Handbook. When are they going to update the Player's Handbook anyways?
Loki5654 06-06-07, 01:11 AM	Because that's in the SRD and not the Player's Handbook. When are they going to update the Player's Handbook anyways? Well, page 142 under "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon" does say "weaponlike objects carried in easy reach, such as wands." At least it does in my version (leather-bound collector's edition).
RogueElement 06-06-07, 08:14 PM	Well, page 142 under "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon" does say "weaponlike objects carried in easy reach, such as wands." At least it does in my version (leather-bound collector's edition). You big city folks and your fancy collector's edition with updated rules. :weep:
Loki5654 06-07-07, 01:31 AM	You big city folks and your fancy collector's edition with updated rules. :weep: I'm not too fancy. I got it for half price because someone had ripped a page. A little clear packing tape fixed it right up, and unless you are actually on that page, you can't tell. My collector's DMG was a birfday present from my players. The MM I bought myself just to round out the set. So, out of the three, I only paid for 1.5 books.
Edymnion 06-08-07, 07:15 PM	You big city folks and your fancy collector's edition with updated rules. :weep:Dude, I'm looking at my normal first printing 3.5 PHB. Page 142, under "Draw or Sheath a Weapon", right where he said it was. It clearly uses a wand as an example, just like he said. It has nothing to do with special printings or anything else. Its in the 3.5 PHB, all of them.
Loki5654 06-09-07, 12:48 AM	Dude, I'm looking at my normal first printing 3.5 PHB. Page 142, under "Draw or Sheath a Weapon", right where he said it was. It clearly uses a wand as an example, just like he said. It has nothing to do with special printings or anything else. Its in the 3.5 PHB, all of them. Awww. Now I don't feel special anymore. Thanks a lot, Edymnion. :allalone:
Edymnion 06-09-07, 10:54 AM	Awww. Now I don't feel special anymore. Thanks a lot, Edymnion. :allalone:Heh, sorry. But really, those leatherbound editions are a complete rip off. They're literally nothing more than the standard edition with a bit of imitation leather wrapped around the cover and some gold paint on the edge of the pages.
tallric_kruush 06-09-07, 11:24 AM	Heh, sorry. But really, those leatherbound editions are a complete rip off. Loki did okay, though, seeing as he didn't pay anything even close to full-price. Personally, I'd be too worried about damaging my "leather" cover to be able to fully enjoy the book. I'd have to continue using my normal copy simply to protect my Collector's Edition.
Elderich 06-11-07, 12:40 AM	Awww. Now I don't feel special anymore. Thanks a lot, Edymnion. :allalone:Loki5654, you are special. We know because you admit to owning such a thing.
Loki5654 06-11-07, 03:08 PM	Loki5654, you are special. We know because you admit to owning such a thing. I own them and I like them. Whether this makes me special or "special" is up to you. The ribbon pagemarkers are quite handy, too.
OneWinged4ngel 06-14-07, 03:53 PM	This has kind of bothered m a little bit why cant i quickdraw a wand it is a weapon i am considered armed when holding a charged wand. Why do i have to have a level in a prestige class to do it. If any one has insights i would be most greatfull This is covered in the FAQ, as well as the PHB. It says that, in regards to actions regarding drawing weapons, these also apply to weaponlike objects (WANDS being given as the SPECIFIC example in the PHB) Yes, Quickdraw applies to wands, rods, scrolls, staffs, etc. However, there is little reason to take it, because you can draw as a non-action while moving if your BAB is greater than 1. I can give page and FAQ references if you want.
Loki5654 06-15-07, 02:58 AM	This is covered in the FAQ, as well as the PHB. It says that, in regards to actions regarding drawing weapons, these also apply to weaponlike objects (WANDS being given as the SPECIFIC example in the PHB) Yes, Quickdraw applies to wands, rods, scrolls, staffs, etc. However, there is little reason to take it, because you can draw as a non-action while moving if your BAB is greater than 1. I can give page and FAQ references if you want. Wands, yes because they are specifically mentioned. Rods and staffs, maybe because they can be interpreted to fit the definition of "weapon-like". But scrolls? No. Scrolls are not "weapon-like" by any stretch of the imagination. Neither are potions, rings, or most of the wonderous items. Quickdraw is most useful for drawing weapons when you can't move/don't want to move.
OneWinged4ngel 06-16-07, 04:50 PM	Wands, yes because they are specifically mentioned. Rods and staffs, maybe because they can be interpreted to fit the definition of "weapon-like". But scrolls? No. Scrolls are not "weapon-like" by any stretch of the imagination. Wow, your imagination is pretty twisted if it can't stretch like that... especially since the FAQ SPECIFICALLY says I'm right... So in your mind, drawing a club is fine, but drawing a rod is not? And if drawing a rod is fine, is there something wrong with drawing a rod with a piece of paper wrapped around it? Your interpretation doesn't follow anything REMOTELY like common sense. You might as well be arguing that dying doesn't have any negative effects on you because the rules don't specifically say they do. At least in that case there's not an FAQ entry saying that you're wrong (as far as I know), such as the one saying that rods are indeed weaponlike, as is anything at all that can be similarly handled that's in easy reach (such as a scroll in a perfectly mundane scroll belt which, IIRC, specifically states that it counts as easy reach for the purpose of that very rule, but I'd have to check on that point...). Basically, both common sense and the rules are against you. So why are you fighting? As long as it's not some bulky or unwieldy item or something tucked away or whatever, then it's fine.
Loki5654 06-16-07, 08:11 PM	Wow, your imagination is pretty twisted if it can't stretch like that... especially since the FAQ SPECIFICALLY says I'm right... That's good. Too bad the rules specifically say I'm right. The FAQ is just one person's unofficial interpretation. By the way, beginning your argument with a direct insult is not a great way to sway me with your argument. So in your mind, drawing a club is fine, but drawing a rod is not? And if drawing a rod is fine, is there something wrong with drawing a rod with a piece of paper wrapped around it? That would necessitate the creation of a "rod item" to hold the scroll. Thus it would be the item that allows it to be Quick Drawn, not the scroll itself. Also, I am not disputing Rods and Quick Draw. I specifically put that in the "maybe" category because I am not 100% sure where I stand on that. Your interpretation doesn't follow anything REMOTELY like common sense. You might as well be arguing that dying doesn't have any negative effects on you because the rules don't specifically say they do. At least in that case there's not an FAQ entry saying that you're wrong (as far as I know), such as the one saying that rods are indeed weaponlike, as is anything at all that can be similarly handled that's in easy reach (such as a scroll in a perfectly mundane scroll belt which, IIRC, specifically states that it counts as easy reach for the purpose of that very rule, but I'd have to check on that point...). Again, that would be a function of the item, not the scroll itself. Additionally, I am not seeing any part of the FAQ that links Quick Draw and scrolls. Can you quote the relevant portion please? Basically, both common sense and the rules are against you. So why are you fighting? I am not fighting. We are duscussing. If you believe this is a fight, I will acquiesce and wait until you are ready to discuss this rationally. As long as it's not some bulky or unwieldy item or something tucked away or whatever, then it's fine. I disagree, there is a line between "weapon-like" and not. Drawing a foot-long stick and pointing it falls under weapon-like. Pulling out a piece of paper and unrolling it does not.
kentonblack 06-18-07, 11:18 AM	one wing: RARRRGH! loki: RARRGH! calm down the both of you. this is turning into a flame war...
Loki5654 06-18-07, 05:19 PM	one wing: RARRRGH! loki: RARRGH! calm down the both of you. this is turning into a flame war... I am calm. What part of my posts has lead you to believe I am not calm? One Wing is the one who threw an insult and called it a fight. I have merely been firmly stating my opinion and asking One Wing to back up his claims with a quote from the rules. In the future, kentonblack, if you have nothing to add to a discussion, please refrain from posting.
OneWinged4ngel 06-19-07, 06:18 AM	I am calm. What part of my posts has lead you to believe I am not calm? One Wing is the one who threw an insult and called it a fight. An argument is a conflict. There's nothing wrong with that, and an argument can very well be a progressive discussion. What you're doing right now is something called "mincing words." Also, not telling the truth... we can scroll up to your last post and see you flinging an insult or two. That's about as bald-faced as it gets, people. I have merely been firmly stating my opinion No, you've been declaring your correctness with bold, unsupported statements like: Too bad the rules specifically say I'm right. Where? Nowhere They don't say you're right (you've certainly not presented a supporting quote), and the FAQ and PHB entry supports my argument, as well as common sense. The FAQ specifically addresses rods and staffs, which would be specifically be identifying me as being correct... not you. So... either you're MAKING STUFF UP (well, more stuff up than you already have as has been irrevocably demonstrated by the contradictions in your own statements), or you're hiding a quote where the rules *specifically* say that *scrolls, rods, and staffs* *cannot* be drawn with quickdraw or a BAB of +1 or more, superseding the FAQ. Which, of course, doesn't exist... so you're just spewing bald-faced falsehoods at this point... and frankly, I'm just posting out of courtesy for the rest of the board now, because I don't have the patience to deal with people who outright don't tell the truth, such as in the next quote... and asking One Wing to back up his claims with a quote from the rules. And when did you ask this? It would also be a strange thing to ask, seeing as you've already seen the relevant quote from the rules, as well as being referenced to the FAQ that, while not official, can be cited as a clarification of the RAI. You already have looked at the relevant quote... you just seem to be twisting "weaponlike" in some arcane way that means you can't draw anything that's not a weapon besides a wand. You've also given NO hard support for your side of the argument (mostly just "I don't think that's weaponlike arbitrarily"), though you arbitrarily claimed that the rules say you were right because they didn't expressly say you were wrong in the PHB, regardless of the clarification of the RAI (an obvious logical falllacy). Your argument is comparable to saying that people can still walk around after dying because the DMG doesn't expressly list the effects of dying. It denies common sense (because you can't accept "and objects of a similar nature" in place of an exhaustive list of every item, which would be stupid.) I disagree, there is a line between "weapon-like" and not. Drawing a foot-long stick and pointing it falls under weapon-like. Pulling out a piece of paper and unrolling it does not. If you have a foot long, rolled up piece of paper, it's just as easy to draw as a foot-long stick. Heck, you can use rolled up paper as a club (albeit one utterly harmless to anything but the occasional fly), even though that's rather irrelevant. Further, unrolling it is not part of a draw action (indeed, if you carry a rolled up scroll in your hand, you don't take a draw action to unroll it). Unrolling a scroll is a non-action, and even if it was an action it wouldn't be involved in drawing any more than the action it takes to swing a sword would be. ___ I'm seriously not sure if you're just trolling/baiting at the point or if you actually believe that you asked me those things, or that the rules specifically said you were right, or that... well, any of the things you say actually happened (when they quite clearly did not). stuff Err, you may not have noticed, but I always talk like this. So either I'm perpetually angry and it's a miracle I'm still alive, or your perception is based off of a wholly assumed tone which is illogical to derive from text.
Loki5654 06-19-07, 12:10 PM	we can scroll up to your last post and see you flinging an insult or two. That's about as bald-faced as it gets, people. Wow. Just, wow. I defy you to show me what part of my previous posts could be considered and insult. Where? Nowhere They don't say you're right (you've certainly not presented a supporting quote), and the FAQ and PHB entry supports my argument, as well as common sense. The FAQ specifically addresses rods and staffs, which would be specifically be identifying me as being correct... not you. I thought I made it clear in my lasy post: I AM NOT ARGUING THE LEGALITY OF RODS AND STAFFS. I have a suspicion that you are continuing the rods/staffs argument because you have little support for you scrolls argument. So... either you're MAKING STUFF UP (well, more stuff up than you already have as has been irrevocably demonstrated by the contradictions in your own statements), or you're hiding a quote where the rules *specifically* say that *scrolls, rods, and staffs* *cannot* be drawn with quickdraw or a BAB of +1 or more, superseding the FAQ. Which, of course, doesn't exist... so you're just spewing bald-faced falsehoods at this point... and frankly, I'm just posting out of courtesy for the rest of the board now, because I don't have the patience to deal with people who outright don't tell the truth, such as in the next quote... I have made NOTHING up about rods and staffs. I am not even arguing about rods and staffs. All I've ever said about rods and staffs is that they are not specifically mentioned in the drawing weapons rules and could be open to some interpretations. Please stop trying to force the rods and staffs argument. I have been arguing scrolls, you know it, cannot support it, and are trying to pull a switcheroo on me. Stop it. And when did you ask this? How about when I asked: Additionally, I am not seeing any part of the FAQ that links Quick Draw and scrolls. Can you quote the relevant portion please? You already have looked at the relevant quote... Where? The only relevant rules quotes made in this thread were BY ME and they support my argument. You are the one who continues to claim "The FAQ says so" but have now been asked at least twice to post the relevant FAQ and you have failed to do so. You have spun off into a rods/staffs argument NO ONE ELSE IS ARGUING in (what I believe) is an attempt to avoid admitting you are wrong. You've also given NO hard support for your side of the argument (mostly just "I don't think that's weaponlike arbitrarily"), Check my post above where I quoted the SRD. Do you see Scroll anywhere in there? How about on the "weapons" charts in the PHB? How about ANY reference to a piece of paper being the equivalent of a weapon? No? That's enough for me. You, however, as the one making the "Scrolls are weapon-like" claim, have the burden of proof. You've been asked at least twice now to quote the FAQ that you claim proves your point. Your argument is comparable to saying that people can still walk around after dying because the DMG doesn't expressly list the effects of dying. It denies common sense (because you can't accept "and objects of a similar nature" in place of an exhaustive list of every item, which would be stupid.) Wow. Way to blow things out of context there. All I've said is that "scrolls are not weapon-like and the rules do not say otherwise". You are the one who says "the rules do say so" even though you have yet to prove it. Now you are saying "an omission in the rules doesn't omit common sense". Which is it? Do the rules say you are right, or is it common sense? You seem to be attempting another switcheroo here. I'm seriously not sure if you're just trolling/baiting at the point or if you actually believe that you asked me those things, or that the rules specifically said you were right, or that... well, any of the things you say actually happened (when they quite clearly did not). Let he who without whatever cast the first whatever. Before you accuse me of something, I remind you that you were the first to insult.
OneWinged4ngel 06-19-07, 02:07 PM	Too bad the rules specifically say I'm right. Where? Ignoring the question posted, and responding strangely to a questioning of his methodology with an all caps shoutfest of not talking about rods and staffs, when that's obviously irrelevant to the quote he was responding to. If you're not spewing bald-faced falsehoods, tell me where it SPECIFICALLY says you're right. It doesn't say that anywhere. That's called you making stuff up. If it specifically says you're right (in the context you made that claim) you have to find an entry that SPECIFICALLY bars staffs, rods, and scrolls, or at the very least scrolls. There is no such entry. Thus, you're making stuff up. When I see that, it makes me think you're trolling. Insults have nothing to do with that. Also, what you just did was say again "I don't think it's weaponlike arbitrarily, because it's not expressly listed." The ONLY thing listed is wands. If you think the only thing included is wands and treat that entry as a "comprehensive list" then you're just wrong, since it's obviously not a comprehensive list. Also, saying "You can't use common sense" doesn't follow either... it's a vague entry that implies that common sense should be used, and nothing like a comprehensive list. In this way, your argument is indeed comparable to the "death has no effect" people. It's the kind of argument that is just depressing to ever hear. The entirety of their argument is *the very same* as yours: "The rules don't specifically say the exact effects in a comprehensive list." And that's right. That doesn't change that it's arguing on a faulty principle. Also, where did I ever say that the FAQ specifically mentioned scrolls? Oh wait, I didn't do that. That's you making stuff up again. I said that it mentioned rods, staffs, and other such items in easy reach.
Loki5654 06-19-07, 02:28 PM	Also, where did I ever say that the FAQ specifically mentioned scrolls? Oh wait, I didn't do that. Yes, you did. This is covered in the FAQ, as well as the PHB. It says that, in regards to actions regarding drawing weapons, these also apply to weaponlike objects (WANDS being given as the SPECIFIC example in the PHB) Yes, Quickdraw applies to...scrolls SPECIFICALLY...SPECIFICALLY Now who's "mincing words"? If you have a foot long, rolled up piece of paper, it's just as easy to draw as a foot-long stick. No it is not. With a stick or wand you don't have to take an extra moment's care to avoid ripping it. Weapon-like objects carried in easy reach in this case means that the item can be grabbed and immediately used. This applies to weapons (Grab and stab) and wands (Acquire and fire). It does not apply to scrolls (Retrieve casing, remove scroll from casing, unroll scroll and read. Sorry for no rhyme here.)
madninjapimp 06-19-07, 05:38 PM	If you want to draw scrolls as a part of a move action, buy an infinate scrollcase (magic of eberron page 109-110, reprinted in magic item compendium as well - I don't have it offhand to quote page) It also holds many scrolls safely for you :). Based on the description of that item, I believe that the INTENT of the rules is that scrolls otherwise require a retrieve action (move that provokes AoO) to get.
OneWinged4ngel 06-22-07, 04:58 PM	Yes, you did. Loki... "Quickdraw applies to... scrolls" does not equal "The FAQ specifically says Quickdraw applies to scrolls." It equals an assertion, made by me, that they apply to scrolls. So... no I didn't. Stop making stuff up. Now who's "mincing words"? You? If you say that the rules specifically say you're right, and they DON'T, then that's just *making stuff up,* Loki. Retrieve casing In that case it would be stored, instead of "in easy reach" such as in one of Thondred's open pouches in the illustration of him in the ECS remove scroll from casing Another part that doesn't happen. unroll scroll This isn't actually part of the draw action. You don't take a move action to unroll a scroll when it's already in hand... it's a non-action. and read That would be the standard action, not the draw action. You're basically attributing every possible action involved in using the scroll to the draw action, where it's not relevant at all. And as for "take care or tear it" that's also unrealistic, provided you have it in something like an open scroll case and such a thing just wouldn't happen. In reality, a weapon is actually harder to draw than a scroll in easy reach, particularly heavy weapons. If you want to draw scrolls as a part of a move action, buy an infinate scrollcase (magic of eberron page 109-110, reprinted in magic item compendium as well - I don't have it offhand to quote page) It also holds many scrolls safely for you :). Based on the description of that item, I believe that the INTENT of the rules is that scrolls otherwise require a retrieve action (move that provokes AoO) to get. The way I read it was that the infinite scrollcase is convenient enough to put ALL your scrolls in "easy reach" instead of just a couple. Though really, it's a judgment call on whether you think something counts as "weaponlike" or not. Common sense would necessitate that if something is as easy to retrieve as a weapon, then it would be "weaponlike" for the purposes of drawing. And a scroll is EASIER to draw than many weapons. Really. Try drawing a long scroll sticking out of your pocket while running (it's as easy as can be. Takes no time and no effort.), then try drawing a heavy greataxe strapped to your back while moving just as fast (not as easy). It's really just common sense.
TiwazTyrsfist 06-24-07, 06:44 PM	Here's a question, can scrolls rip accidentally? I mean, magic items get a caster level based save on damage, and scrolls are magic items. Sure, a person could deliberately destroy a scroll, but I imagine that ripping the parchment would be much more difficult than ripping non-magical parchment. If nothing else, I'd house rule that you have to roll the scroll in a special way (bottom to top), then allow it.
kentonblack 06-26-07, 12:28 AM	well, ive had players sunder the crap out of everything before. guy had a shatterspike, started ripping into shields, potions, scrolls, wands, EVERYTHING. and from what we interpreted from the rules, they had to swing back with an opposed attack roll(at the -4 for improvised weapons) he usually did damage, and he usually smashed the friggin thing. gaddamn, he wanted an adamantine shatterspike after he figured THAT out.
WizO_Sith 06-26-07, 06:12 AM	Let's everybody stay civil and try to post politely, shall we? Thanks.
Loki5654 06-26-07, 01:53 PM	Let's everybody stay civil and try to post politely, shall we? Thanks. So using the word "hypocrit" in its correct context constitutes uncivil and impolite behavior but directly accusing me of "making stuff up" doesn't?
FaelonOnyxblade 06-26-07, 03:56 PM	I do not think attacking a moderator is going to help your situation there Loki. - - - - - - - As far as every game I've DM'ed and played in, Quick Draw essentially worked for any weapon or weapon-like item that was within reach and easily. This was applicable to any weapon (obviously), and weapon-like referring to anthing that can have an effect (damage, healing, conjuring, poisoning, etc) as long as it met the rest of the criteria of the Quick Draw feat. If you have a specific item in mind, please feel free to ask. I would imagine I could answer your question with a yes or no in relation to if it is "Quick Draw Compatible" or not (as far as how I've interpreted it.)
Loki5654 06-26-07, 04:02 PM	I do not think attacking a moderator is going to help your situation there Loki. 1. I did not attack WizO_Sith. I politely asked a legitimate question. 2. Respectfully and politely, I ask you to mind your own business.
FaelonOnyxblade 06-26-07, 04:06 PM	I'm not arguing with you, I'm just posting information and my feedback. And please don't take the first sentence to ask me why I think I thought you were arguing with me in the first place. My main goal is to just post what I think about the question first asked here.
madninjapimp 07-03-07, 01:51 PM	I think we may be arguing a little bit of apples VS oranges here. As a DM if a player has ONE scroll specifically stored in an easy to get to pocket/pouch/whatever - NOT a scroll/map case (sorry I just don't see it as that easy to pull something out of those), I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as they has it declared as being there for access. IE - I have a scroll of fireball in my left pocket, it's the only thing in my left pocket. Ya It's pretty easy to get, go ahead and draw it as part of a move if your BAB is +1 or better. Now if I have 10 scrolls in my left pocket? no way. Pull the wad out, search for your scroll - as a retrieve action.