Superior Unarmed Strike + Battlefists Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Superior Unarmed Strike + Battlefists Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tygaran
06-11-07, 02:37 PM Since Tome of Battle came out after Eberron, I was wondering what people think about allowing the Battlefist warforged component's increased unarmed damage to work with the Superior Unarmed Strike feat? I know RAW states that the Battlefist only increases Slam or a Warforged Monk's unarmed strike, but still.... I think backwards thinking should allow the combo to work.

So a SUS Battlefist combo would result in
3rd -> 1d6
4th - 7th -> 1d8
8th - 11th -> 2d6
12th - 15th -> 2d8
16th - 20th -> 3d6

As a similar question, would the Battlefist improve the unarmed strike of the Unarmed Swordsage Adaptation?

And just what is the unarmed damage for a 20th or higher level monk with Superior Unarmed Strike? Still only 2d10?

:confused:
Pivotal
06-12-07, 05:30 AM I see no reason for it not to work with superior unarmed strike or the swordsages unarmed progression. My DM let it work with my warforged swordsage just fine :)

Also as far as damage goes, monk damage doesn't improve over 20th level. Except if you make yourself larger that is.
Moosh Nailo
06-21-07, 04:14 PM But that's the point, the battlefist DOES make you larger as far as a monk's unarmed damage is concerned.

As for Superior Unarmed Strike, maybe check the epic level handbook to see if the monk's progression does advance? Not sure offhand, and I'd check, but my computer is trying to kill itself.

Edit: ArcTan beat me to it, but yeah, guess they don't increase. Nvm, then.
ArcTan
06-22-07, 02:24 AM No, the ELH says Monks' damage does not increase after level 20.
tenguroEd
07-08-07, 01:49 AM what was battlefists again?
TheBeardedElf
07-10-07, 09:57 AM I would cap it a large monk of level 20 (unless you can increase your effective size further)
aelryinth
07-12-07, 10:15 PM and lo, there are many, manyways to increase your effective size further.

SUS gives you a 4 level bonus on IUS, it just helps monks get to the top faster, or buys off a LA. INS is what you want...one size larger from Improved Natural Strike.

then you take a HEavy battlefist (exotic weapon prof), for another size increase.
Then, you make yourself Large, for another size increase.

ANd then you Expand psionically once or twice.

for +5 size increases. It can get worse, and the dmg numbers get really wonkey since they double every 2 sizes.

2d10 at 20, goes to 4-32, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8, 16d8. Yeah, pretty wonky pretty fast...

===Aerlyinth
ArcTan
07-14-07, 02:05 AM and lo, there are many, manyways to increase your effective size further.

SUS gives you a 4 level bonus on IUS, it just helps monks get to the top faster, or buys off a LA. INS is what you want...one size larger from Improved Natural Strike.

then you take a HEavy battlefist (exotic weapon prof), for another size increase.
Then, you make yourself Large, for another size increase.
ANd then you Expand psionically once or twice.

...You can't stack expansion on another magical means of increasing size (like using alter self into a Warforged Charger).

I guess you can also just *be* a Warforged Charger, but the penalties on that are pretty crippling -- a +4 LA and a -4 Wis make them a terrible starting race for a Monk.
gensuke626
07-14-07, 08:19 PM So a SUS Battlefist combo would result in
3rd -> 1d6
4th - 7th -> 1d8
8th - 11th -> 2d6
12th - 15th -> 2d8
16th - 20th -> 3d6

First, I would allow it if it ever came up in a game I'm running.

Second, wouldn't the progression be as follows?

1-3 - 1d6
Assume gets Battlefist at lvl 3, for sake of arguement
4-5 - 2d6
Assume Picks up SUS at level 6. it adds +4 levels right?
6-7 - 2d8
8-11 - 3d6
12-15 - 3d8
16+ - 4d8
The Crimson Dawn
07-15-07, 03:08 PM I could be wrong but I thought you could use expansion on something like alter self but no with expansion. The reasoning for me is that expansion is like a bonus to your size by increasing your forms size. This would not stack with enlarge because that is also a bonus to your size. Alter self does not give you a bonus to your size it changes your form to a new size. As an example of another similar concept might be using ability scores when changing shape. When I change my shape from human to a dire wolf with polymorph I change my strength to 25. I did not recieve a bonus to my strength causing it to raise to 25 my strength became 25. This is how I think it works with changing sizes using spells like polymorph or alter self. To me when you are in a different form your size, natural armor, and things of that sort are just changed into that of the form you are in- not a bonus to your previous abilities.

I could be wrong but I think I got this one right. If I am wrong just explain how.
The Crimson Dawn
07-15-07, 03:35 PM Nevermind they use a very broad blanket statement to eliminate size increases. So no I guess you can not increase your size. I think that is sort of dumb and it does not fit how bonuses work but I guess those are the rules. I think they just wanted to prevent you from casting it twice or using enlarge person and expansion on the same creature but it does not say that so no size increases sorry.
ArcTan
07-15-07, 09:39 PM If you were able to stack a bunch of very low-level spells to become Gargantuan, the brokenness would ring to the very heavens.
The Crimson Dawn
07-15-07, 11:32 PM Well I was not thinking a lot of low level spells just a polymorph effect and any one spell that provides a bonus. Sort of like when using polymorph with bull's strength. You polymorph to a dire wolf and your strength is set to 25 and then you cast bulls strength and get a +4 enhancement bonus to 29. In the same sort of example I use polymorph to become a new creature that is large size and then use expansion (essentially a bonus) to make that creature larger. This is not legal because of the blanket statements made in the size enhancement abilities. While I agree that they put it there for balance reasons I think that it does not make sense in comparison to how bonuses work in the rest of magic. But it is as it is.
ArcTan
07-19-07, 08:06 PM That's because gaining Huge or Gargantuan size is a much bigger deal than simply getting Str 25 plus a +4 bonus to Str.

Ultimately the game has to work based on what's good for the game, not what "makes sense" (which is in the eye of the beholder).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tygaran 06-11-07, 02:37 PM	Since Tome of Battle came out after Eberron, I was wondering what people think about allowing the Battlefist warforged component's increased unarmed damage to work with the Superior Unarmed Strike feat? I know RAW states that the Battlefist only increases Slam or a Warforged Monk's unarmed strike, but still.... I think backwards thinking should allow the combo to work. So a SUS Battlefist combo would result in 3rd -> 1d6 4th - 7th -> 1d8 8th - 11th -> 2d6 12th - 15th -> 2d8 16th - 20th -> 3d6 As a similar question, would the Battlefist improve the unarmed strike of the Unarmed Swordsage Adaptation? And just what is the unarmed damage for a 20th or higher level monk with Superior Unarmed Strike? Still only 2d10? :confused:
Pivotal 06-12-07, 05:30 AM	I see no reason for it not to work with superior unarmed strike or the swordsages unarmed progression. My DM let it work with my warforged swordsage just fine :) Also as far as damage goes, monk damage doesn't improve over 20th level. Except if you make yourself larger that is.
Moosh Nailo 06-21-07, 04:14 PM	But that's the point, the battlefist DOES make you larger as far as a monk's unarmed damage is concerned. As for Superior Unarmed Strike, maybe check the epic level handbook to see if the monk's progression does advance? Not sure offhand, and I'd check, but my computer is trying to kill itself. Edit: ArcTan beat me to it, but yeah, guess they don't increase. Nvm, then.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 02:24 AM	No, the ELH says Monks' damage does not increase after level 20.
tenguroEd 07-08-07, 01:49 AM	what was battlefists again?
TheBeardedElf 07-10-07, 09:57 AM	I would cap it a large monk of level 20 (unless you can increase your effective size further)
aelryinth 07-12-07, 10:15 PM	and lo, there are many, manyways to increase your effective size further. SUS gives you a 4 level bonus on IUS, it just helps monks get to the top faster, or buys off a LA. INS is what you want...one size larger from Improved Natural Strike. then you take a HEavy battlefist (exotic weapon prof), for another size increase. Then, you make yourself Large, for another size increase. ANd then you Expand psionically once or twice. for +5 size increases. It can get worse, and the dmg numbers get really wonkey since they double every 2 sizes. 2d10 at 20, goes to 4-32, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8, 16d8. Yeah, pretty wonky pretty fast... ===Aerlyinth
ArcTan 07-14-07, 02:05 AM	and lo, there are many, manyways to increase your effective size further. SUS gives you a 4 level bonus on IUS, it just helps monks get to the top faster, or buys off a LA. INS is what you want...one size larger from Improved Natural Strike. then you take a HEavy battlefist (exotic weapon prof), for another size increase. Then, you make yourself Large, for another size increase. ANd then you Expand psionically once or twice. ...You can't stack expansion on another magical means of increasing size (like using alter self into a Warforged Charger). I guess you can also just be a Warforged Charger, but the penalties on that are pretty crippling -- a +4 LA and a -4 Wis make them a terrible starting race for a Monk.
gensuke626 07-14-07, 08:19 PM	So a SUS Battlefist combo would result in 3rd -> 1d6 4th - 7th -> 1d8 8th - 11th -> 2d6 12th - 15th -> 2d8 16th - 20th -> 3d6 First, I would allow it if it ever came up in a game I'm running. Second, wouldn't the progression be as follows? 1-3 - 1d6 Assume gets Battlefist at lvl 3, for sake of arguement 4-5 - 2d6 Assume Picks up SUS at level 6. it adds +4 levels right? 6-7 - 2d8 8-11 - 3d6 12-15 - 3d8 16+ - 4d8
The Crimson Dawn 07-15-07, 03:08 PM	I could be wrong but I thought you could use expansion on something like alter self but no with expansion. The reasoning for me is that expansion is like a bonus to your size by increasing your forms size. This would not stack with enlarge because that is also a bonus to your size. Alter self does not give you a bonus to your size it changes your form to a new size. As an example of another similar concept might be using ability scores when changing shape. When I change my shape from human to a dire wolf with polymorph I change my strength to 25. I did not recieve a bonus to my strength causing it to raise to 25 my strength became 25. This is how I think it works with changing sizes using spells like polymorph or alter self. To me when you are in a different form your size, natural armor, and things of that sort are just changed into that of the form you are in- not a bonus to your previous abilities. I could be wrong but I think I got this one right. If I am wrong just explain how.
The Crimson Dawn 07-15-07, 03:35 PM	Nevermind they use a very broad blanket statement to eliminate size increases. So no I guess you can not increase your size. I think that is sort of dumb and it does not fit how bonuses work but I guess those are the rules. I think they just wanted to prevent you from casting it twice or using enlarge person and expansion on the same creature but it does not say that so no size increases sorry.
ArcTan 07-15-07, 09:39 PM	If you were able to stack a bunch of very low-level spells to become Gargantuan, the brokenness would ring to the very heavens.
The Crimson Dawn 07-15-07, 11:32 PM	Well I was not thinking a lot of low level spells just a polymorph effect and any one spell that provides a bonus. Sort of like when using polymorph with bull's strength. You polymorph to a dire wolf and your strength is set to 25 and then you cast bulls strength and get a +4 enhancement bonus to 29. In the same sort of example I use polymorph to become a new creature that is large size and then use expansion (essentially a bonus) to make that creature larger. This is not legal because of the blanket statements made in the size enhancement abilities. While I agree that they put it there for balance reasons I think that it does not make sense in comparison to how bonuses work in the rest of magic. But it is as it is.
ArcTan 07-19-07, 08:06 PM	That's because gaining Huge or Gargantuan size is a much bigger deal than simply getting Str 25 plus a +4 bonus to Str. Ultimately the game has to work based on what's good for the game, not what "makes sense" (which is in the eye of the beholder).