Warforged melee artificer + battlefists [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warforged melee artificer + battlefists [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aezrel
05-18-07, 01:42 PM I'm making a melee artificer where i take a dip into fighter class and Juggernaught PrC.

I plan on using the Battle fists but i'm a little confused at it's description.

Battle fists:
This weapon +1 resembles a massively oversized spiked gauntlet. One designed for a medium warforged looks like a gauntlet designed for an ogre. It attaches to the arm of a warforged completely covering the hand. This component only operates when attached and locked in place.
A battlefist increases the damage dealt by the character's natural slam attack to 1d8 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage (assuming a Medium character). Versions with highter enhancement bonus are not uncommon.
A warforged monk who uses a battlefist deals increased unarmed damage as though the character were one size larger than actual, and he can add the battlefist's ehhancement bonus to his unarmed attack and damage rolls

1. With the gauntled on can i cast spells (i have the other hand with a shield) as if i had a free hand?

2. In the description it says that "spiked gauntlet". Does this mean i can use it as an manufactured weapon? if so what damage does it do?

3. If the gauntlet works like an manufactured gauntlet can i make all attacks and still make the natural weapon attack? because i was thinling in taking second slam. so if i had +6/+1 could i then do 2 slams attacks?

The description says its a spiked gauntled but then it says that enhanced the natural attack. So which is it? both? do i have to choose one?

thank you for your help
Cifer
05-19-07, 10:37 AM 1. With the gauntled on can i cast spells (i have the other hand with a shield) as if i had a free hand?
Well, it's not spelt out but I imagine it to be rather difficult - it's massively oversized and designed for tearing and clawing, not making delicate gestures. Just stick with a light shield and you're fine.

2. In the description it says that "spiked gauntlet". Does this mean i can use it as an manufactured weapon? if so what damage does it do?
The description says it "resembles" a spiked gauntlet. If I as a passionate car-lover have a birthday cake that resembles a car, can I drive around with it?
The first two sentences are pure fluff. Anything important (like how the thing works) comes in the later sentences. It does nothing except improve your natural attack. That's it.
dunkeykong
05-20-07, 04:53 PM it's not spelt out but I imagine it to be rather difficult - it's massively oversized and designed for tearing and clawing, not making delicate gestures. Just stick with a light shield and you're fine.

Thats a pretty big thing for them not to mention. I could see that logic on other things that require finger dexterity, but the ability to cast spells with them would be big. keep in mind, theres nothing the description stating that you lose any dexterity. the nice thing about components is that they dont just slide over a waforged, they actually lock into place and become a part of the 'forged. For a 'forged a battlefist would be just as comfortable as a pair of skintight, supple gloves for us, we can still do the same things.

After all, an Ogre mage can still cast spells, even with his huge clunky hands.
dunkeykong
05-20-07, 04:57 PM 3. If the gauntlet works like an manufactured gauntlet can i make all attacks and still make the natural weapon attack? because i was thinling in taking second slam. so if i had +6/+1 could i then do 2 slams attacks?

The description says its a spiked gauntled but then it says that enhanced the natural attack. So which is it? both? do i have to choose one?

thank you for your help

Unfortunetly, it just modifies your natural slam attack, so you cant make multiple attacks with it as you would with any other weapon.

The natural attack rules (especially for Warforged and Shifters) bother the hell out of me. please feel free to house rule them out and tell us how it goes.
Aezrel
05-20-07, 05:13 PM well when i said spells of course i meant infusion. anyway i dont see a problem casting infisions with a battlefist on.

my question about if it would be or not a manufactured weapon is that i spoke with some DM's and all of them said i would work as a manufactured weapon, so i would retain all my attacks from BaB. i guess they where wrong.

i will probably drop the shield and go with 2 slams and choose the feat second slam so i get at least 3 attacks.
Cifer
05-20-07, 05:57 PM Thats a pretty big thing for them not to mention.
Sadly, there are few places where you can read anything about what things allow you somatic components.
However, the battlefist is mostly treated as a held object, just like a weapon - and the standard for those is "no somatic components with the same hand".

i will probably drop the shield and go with 2 slams and choose the feat second slam so i get at least 3 attacks.
And how will you do that? Dropping the shield doesn't give you a second slam, so I don't really see a third attack here. However, you could get a melee weapon to wield in your right hand, attach the battlefist to your left and then have a full iterative attack including the improved slam (or two slams if you get the feat). Of course, you'd then have the problems with the somatic components again.
Aezrel
05-21-07, 07:24 AM And how will you do that? Dropping the shield doesn't give you a second slam, so I don't really see a third attack here.

I though since i had the other hand free i could use it to slam too. But i guess i only get 1 slam :(
Aezrel
05-21-07, 08:24 AM So lets imagine i have a long sword in one hand and a battlefist in the other and have the feat second slam

so if i had lets say +11/+6/+1 BaB. if i used my natural attack i would have

+11/+6/+1/+9/+2

the final +2 is the penalty of -5 of second slam and the -2 penalty when i use manufactured weapon and natural attack. is this correct?

is there anyway to reduce the penalties?
ChimericalWolf
05-21-07, 10:37 AM That progression is just about right, except that I think your last attack would be at +4, giving Longsword +11/+6/+1 Slam +9/+4.

About the only thing to make slam better would be an amulet of magic fang, or the like, or weapon focus on your slam. Ultimately, I don't think it's really worth it for you. I would probably just go sword-and-board or use a two-handed weapon.
Dr. Benway
05-21-07, 10:20 PM This has been discussed ad nauseum, most recently right here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=847472
But let me sum up on the salient points here.
The battlefist DOES count as a manufactured weapon. In all respects it is a spiked gauntlet, right out of the PHB.
Since a spiked gauntlet does not hinder manual dexterity in ANY way, then yes, you can absolutely cast spells and whatnot with it on. You can also pick locks and wield a weapon in the same hand if you choose.
Now just because it counts as a spiked gauntlet when you attack with it doesnt mean you have to do so. Monks cant use spiked gauntlets without a penalty, but its value to a WF goes way beyond that usage.
A WF can ALWAYS slide in a slam at the end of a full attack routine of any kind. Wether its normal attacks, a monks flurry, or whatever. Unmodified, the penalty to hit is BAB -5. If you take Second Slam and Jaws of Death, you then have three natural attacks you can throw on, and then you qualify for multiattack which reduces the penalty to these atttacks to BAB -2.

For a more in depth breakdown of how all this works you should check out the link I posted above. It uses a monk as the example but the concept is sound for anyone.

Hope this helped :D

DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Kreistor2
05-22-07, 05:07 AM A WF can ALWAYS slide in a slam at the end of a full attack routine of any kind.

Not according to CS, and I have to agree with their reasoning.

You cannot use a limb to attack in two ways in the same round. (Ie. A troll can't attack with daggers in both hands, then drop the daggers and get two claw attacks as secondaries. Claws or Daggers, not both.) Once a limb is used to attack, it is used up for all methods of attack.

Slam attacks use up a limb, accordng to the MM (Natural attack section). Though the WF entry does not specify, the author likely took it as obvious that Slams use the arms, not the legs. We are talking about a Battlefist that modifes the Slam attack, after all, which ought to be evidence enough it's not a leg kick.

Consequently, you cannot Slam after a full attack sequence, since you have already used your arms to attack with.

Note that CS reports the WF Slam requires both hands (thus the 1.5x Str modifier): you can't use it as an off-hand or a one-handed attack. This I don't agree with, so I houseruled it in my own campaign.
ChimericalWolf
05-22-07, 10:08 AM Note that CS reports the WF Slam requires both hands (thus the 1.5x Str modifier): you can't use it as an off-hand or a one-handed attack.
(Note that this is from memory, and I'm probably wrong, so look it up yourself before trusting me!)
Disagree. A natural attack used as a primary always does 1.5 STR mod. A bite attack, after all, doesn't use two hands, and it gets 1.5.
Dr. Benway
05-22-07, 05:43 PM @ Kreistor:
WotC has never specified as to whether a slam is linked to particular limb, or whether they can slam with any limb available to them. Thus a slam could be done with an arm, as a kick, a headbutt, whatever. If you want to rule personally that they can only slam with their fists than that is your perrogative. As it stands, there is no offical ruling on it, as has been discussed.
Not according to CS, and I have to agree with their reasoning.
Please do point that out, as I have never seen it said anywhere.

As for the x1.5 STR bonus dam, ChimericalWolf has it right in that any time you use a natural weapon as your primary attack in that round, it does STR x1.5 damage.

DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
dunkeykong
05-22-07, 05:58 PM This has been discussed ad nauseum, most recently right here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=847472
But let me sum up on the salient points here.
The battlefist DOES count as a manufactured weapon. In all respects it is a spiked gauntlet, right out of the PHB.
Since a spiked gauntlet does not hinder manual dexterity in ANY way, then yes, you can absolutely cast spells and whatnot with it on. You can also pick locks and wield a weapon in the same hand if you choose.
Now just because it counts as a spiked gauntlet when you attack with it doesnt mean you have to do so. Monks cant use spiked gauntlets without a penalty, but its value to a WF goes way beyond that usage.
A WF can ALWAYS slide in a slam at the end of a full attack routine of any kind. Wether its normal attacks, a monks flurry, or whatever. Unmodified, the penalty to hit is BAB -5. If you take Second Slam and Jaws of Death, you then have three natural attacks you can throw on, and then you qualify for multiattack which reduces the penalty to these atttacks to BAB -2.

For a more in depth breakdown of how all this works you should check out the link I posted above. It uses a monk as the example but the concept is sound for anyone.

Hope this helped :D

DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?

Ok, wow. Not that I dont trust you, But i would really like to see the official ruling on that. that goes against everything id ever heard about battlefists.
Dr. Benway
05-22-07, 09:09 PM Ok, wow. Not that I dont trust you, But i would really like to see the official ruling on that. that goes against everything id ever heard about battlefists.
Ruling about what specifically? The Battlefist description clearly states that it counts as a spiked gauntlet right out of the PhB.
The description of the spiked gauntlet in no way mentions it limiting your manual dexterity.
As for the rest, its all basic rules for how natural and manufactured weapons interact.
The only ambiguous part of this is the ruling as to whether slam attacks are linked to specific limbs or whether a creature with a slam attack can slam with any available appendage, like a Monk's unarmed strike.
So...what part are you looking for clarification on at this point...?

DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Cifer
05-23-07, 08:08 AM Ruling about what specifically? The Battlefist description clearly states that it counts as a spiked gauntlet right out of the PhB.
Mind taking a look at the entire thread? More specifically the second post?

The description says it "resembles" a spiked gauntlet. If I as a passionate car-lover have a birthday cake that resembles a car, can I drive around with it?
Aezrel
05-23-07, 12:15 PM Well i've talk to alot of diferent DM's i know and all of them say it works like a manufactured weapon.

so wat the dmg of this thing? the same as as spiked gauntlet (1d3 i think)?

i guess i'll have a talk with my DM and see wat he thinks about all this.

I was searching the MM for some rules and encontered this on the full attack description of the vampire (pg. 252 MM)

full attack: a vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its natural weapons. If armed with a weapon, it usualy uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapons as a natural secondary attack

this goes with what Dr. Benway was saying

z
Dr. Benway
05-23-07, 04:26 PM Well i've talk to alot of diferent DM's i know and all of them say it works like a manufactured weapon.

so wat the dmg of this thing? the same as as spiked gauntlet (1d3 i think)?

i guess i'll have a talk with my DM and see wat he thinks about all this.

I was searching the MM for some rules and encontered this on the full attack description of the vampire (pg. 252 MM)

full attack: a vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its natural weapons. If armed with a weapon, it usualy uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapons as a natural secondary attack

this goes with what Dr. Benway was saying

z

Exactamundo. Its because you dont get to use your full interative attacks with natural wepaons. You get a specific attack routine. So if you have a BAB over 5 you will want to use those weapons and then throw in your natural wepaon attack as secondaries at the end.
As for the damage...yeah as AFAIK it does normal spiked gauntlet damage for a medium critter. I could easily see houseruling that it does as much dam as a large spiked gauntlet since it is described as being sized for an ogre...but accordiing to the RAW it does normal dam for medium spiked gaunt.

DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
gelalshawr
05-23-07, 05:21 PM @DocB:

Nowhere in the description of the Battlefist does it say "works exactly as a spiked gauntlet" I have to agree with Cifer on this, it says "resembles a spiked gauntlet" and then goes on to describe that it enhances your natural attack, it says nothing about being a weapon that does a specific damage.
Dr. Benway
05-23-07, 07:37 PM @DocB:

Nowhere in the description of the Battlefist does it say "works exactly as a spiked gauntlet" I have to agree with Cifer on this, it says "resembles a spiked gauntlet" and then goes on to describe that it enhances your natural attack, it says nothing about being a weapon that does a specific damage.

I think you are reading in too much to the somantics, but thats just my opinion. If it didnt function like a spiked gauntlet, than I dont think they would have used that specific item in its description. They would have described it by its features, not that its just like one. Altho I guess I dont understand the worry of it being a spiked gauntlet or not. It does 1d3 dam...much less than even an unmodified slam. Whats the big deal really? The battlefist's real value is to a Monk, increasing their damage by a full die category. Whether or not you can attack with iteratives for a wopping 1d3 pales pretty quick to that and the slam increase.
Again tho, just my opinion.

DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
dunkeykong
05-24-07, 12:23 AM @DocB:

Nowhere in the description of the Battlefist does it say "works exactly as a spiked gauntlet" I have to agree with Cifer on this, it says "resembles a spiked gauntlet" and then goes on to describe that it enhances your natural attack, it says nothing about being a weapon that does a specific damage.

Exactly.

With the words "resembles a spiked gauntlet" they are just trying to implant an image in your head. The entry goes on to specifically state "The Battelfist increases the natural damage done by a characters slam attack" it says nothing about changing that attack to anything other that a slam attack.

Somatics have nothing to do with it.
Aezrel
05-24-07, 08:18 AM i'm ok with battlefiste only augmenting the Slam.

but i have a question. My warforged artificer 2/fighter 1 uses a long sword in 1 hand and a shield in the other. Can he make the slam attack? (by the description i posted about the vampire i believe so)
ChristopherGroves
05-24-07, 11:13 AM The general consensus is "no" as you don't have an arm free - both are doing something with an item.

:shrug:
dunkeykong
05-24-07, 12:01 PM i'm ok with battlefiste only augmenting the Slam.

but i have a question. My warforged artificer 2/fighter 1 uses a long sword in 1 hand and a shield in the other. Can he make the slam attack? (by the description i posted about the vampire i believe so)

A slam attack comes from the weight of the construction of the 'forged. I see no good reason why a foot or headbutt couldnt be used. Sure its not covered in the RAW, but were not talking about a claw or bite attack that could only be used with one body part, this is literally just flailing out and cracking someone skull with your heavy metal body.
Cifer
05-24-07, 12:17 PM Altho I guess I dont understand the worry of it being a spiked gauntlet or not. It does 1d3 dam...much less than even an unmodified slam. Whats the big deal really? The battlefist's real value is to a Monk, increasing their damage by a full die category. Whether or not you can attack with iteratives for a wopping 1d3 pales pretty quick to that and the slam increase.
The "big deal" is that you now have a manufactured weapon in your hand, meaning you can make a full iterative attack in addition to your slam. The damage doesn't matter that much - between the spiked gauntlet (1.5 points) and the longsword (4.5 points of damage), there's only an average difference of 3 points of damage, which can be rendered utterly irrelevant by the later enchantments, strength bonuses and all the other stuff. Effectively, by making the battlefist a manufactured weapon, you just got yourself a third hand slot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aezrel 05-18-07, 01:42 PM	I'm making a melee artificer where i take a dip into fighter class and Juggernaught PrC. I plan on using the Battle fists but i'm a little confused at it's description. Battle fists: This weapon +1 resembles a massively oversized spiked gauntlet. One designed for a medium warforged looks like a gauntlet designed for an ogre. It attaches to the arm of a warforged completely covering the hand. This component only operates when attached and locked in place. A battlefist increases the damage dealt by the character's natural slam attack to 1d8 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage (assuming a Medium character). Versions with highter enhancement bonus are not uncommon. A warforged monk who uses a battlefist deals increased unarmed damage as though the character were one size larger than actual, and he can add the battlefist's ehhancement bonus to his unarmed attack and damage rolls 1. With the gauntled on can i cast spells (i have the other hand with a shield) as if i had a free hand? 2. In the description it says that "spiked gauntlet". Does this mean i can use it as an manufactured weapon? if so what damage does it do? 3. If the gauntlet works like an manufactured gauntlet can i make all attacks and still make the natural weapon attack? because i was thinling in taking second slam. so if i had +6/+1 could i then do 2 slams attacks? The description says its a spiked gauntled but then it says that enhanced the natural attack. So which is it? both? do i have to choose one? thank you for your help
Cifer 05-19-07, 10:37 AM	1. With the gauntled on can i cast spells (i have the other hand with a shield) as if i had a free hand? Well, it's not spelt out but I imagine it to be rather difficult - it's massively oversized and designed for tearing and clawing, not making delicate gestures. Just stick with a light shield and you're fine. 2. In the description it says that "spiked gauntlet". Does this mean i can use it as an manufactured weapon? if so what damage does it do? The description says it "resembles" a spiked gauntlet. If I as a passionate car-lover have a birthday cake that resembles a car, can I drive around with it? The first two sentences are pure fluff. Anything important (like how the thing works) comes in the later sentences. It does nothing except improve your natural attack. That's it.
dunkeykong 05-20-07, 04:53 PM	it's not spelt out but I imagine it to be rather difficult - it's massively oversized and designed for tearing and clawing, not making delicate gestures. Just stick with a light shield and you're fine. Thats a pretty big thing for them not to mention. I could see that logic on other things that require finger dexterity, but the ability to cast spells with them would be big. keep in mind, theres nothing the description stating that you lose any dexterity. the nice thing about components is that they dont just slide over a waforged, they actually lock into place and become a part of the 'forged. For a 'forged a battlefist would be just as comfortable as a pair of skintight, supple gloves for us, we can still do the same things. After all, an Ogre mage can still cast spells, even with his huge clunky hands.
dunkeykong 05-20-07, 04:57 PM	3. If the gauntlet works like an manufactured gauntlet can i make all attacks and still make the natural weapon attack? because i was thinling in taking second slam. so if i had +6/+1 could i then do 2 slams attacks? The description says its a spiked gauntled but then it says that enhanced the natural attack. So which is it? both? do i have to choose one? thank you for your help Unfortunetly, it just modifies your natural slam attack, so you cant make multiple attacks with it as you would with any other weapon. The natural attack rules (especially for Warforged and Shifters) bother the hell out of me. please feel free to house rule them out and tell us how it goes.
Aezrel 05-20-07, 05:13 PM	well when i said spells of course i meant infusion. anyway i dont see a problem casting infisions with a battlefist on. my question about if it would be or not a manufactured weapon is that i spoke with some DM's and all of them said i would work as a manufactured weapon, so i would retain all my attacks from BaB. i guess they where wrong. i will probably drop the shield and go with 2 slams and choose the feat second slam so i get at least 3 attacks.
Cifer 05-20-07, 05:57 PM	Thats a pretty big thing for them not to mention. Sadly, there are few places where you can read anything about what things allow you somatic components. However, the battlefist is mostly treated as a held object, just like a weapon - and the standard for those is "no somatic components with the same hand". i will probably drop the shield and go with 2 slams and choose the feat second slam so i get at least 3 attacks. And how will you do that? Dropping the shield doesn't give you a second slam, so I don't really see a third attack here. However, you could get a melee weapon to wield in your right hand, attach the battlefist to your left and then have a full iterative attack including the improved slam (or two slams if you get the feat). Of course, you'd then have the problems with the somatic components again.
Aezrel 05-21-07, 07:24 AM	And how will you do that? Dropping the shield doesn't give you a second slam, so I don't really see a third attack here. I though since i had the other hand free i could use it to slam too. But i guess i only get 1 slam :(
Aezrel 05-21-07, 08:24 AM	So lets imagine i have a long sword in one hand and a battlefist in the other and have the feat second slam so if i had lets say +11/+6/+1 BaB. if i used my natural attack i would have +11/+6/+1/+9/+2 the final +2 is the penalty of -5 of second slam and the -2 penalty when i use manufactured weapon and natural attack. is this correct? is there anyway to reduce the penalties?
ChimericalWolf 05-21-07, 10:37 AM	That progression is just about right, except that I think your last attack would be at +4, giving Longsword +11/+6/+1 Slam +9/+4. About the only thing to make slam better would be an amulet of magic fang, or the like, or weapon focus on your slam. Ultimately, I don't think it's really worth it for you. I would probably just go sword-and-board or use a two-handed weapon.
Dr. Benway 05-21-07, 10:20 PM	This has been discussed ad nauseum, most recently right here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=847472 But let me sum up on the salient points here. The battlefist DOES count as a manufactured weapon. In all respects it is a spiked gauntlet, right out of the PHB. Since a spiked gauntlet does not hinder manual dexterity in ANY way, then yes, you can absolutely cast spells and whatnot with it on. You can also pick locks and wield a weapon in the same hand if you choose. Now just because it counts as a spiked gauntlet when you attack with it doesnt mean you have to do so. Monks cant use spiked gauntlets without a penalty, but its value to a WF goes way beyond that usage. A WF can ALWAYS slide in a slam at the end of a full attack routine of any kind. Wether its normal attacks, a monks flurry, or whatever. Unmodified, the penalty to hit is BAB -5. If you take Second Slam and Jaws of Death, you then have three natural attacks you can throw on, and then you qualify for multiattack which reduces the penalty to these atttacks to BAB -2. For a more in depth breakdown of how all this works you should check out the link I posted above. It uses a monk as the example but the concept is sound for anyone. Hope this helped :D DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Kreistor2 05-22-07, 05:07 AM	A WF can ALWAYS slide in a slam at the end of a full attack routine of any kind. Not according to CS, and I have to agree with their reasoning. You cannot use a limb to attack in two ways in the same round. (Ie. A troll can't attack with daggers in both hands, then drop the daggers and get two claw attacks as secondaries. Claws or Daggers, not both.) Once a limb is used to attack, it is used up for all methods of attack. Slam attacks use up a limb, accordng to the MM (Natural attack section). Though the WF entry does not specify, the author likely took it as obvious that Slams use the arms, not the legs. We are talking about a Battlefist that modifes the Slam attack, after all, which ought to be evidence enough it's not a leg kick. Consequently, you cannot Slam after a full attack sequence, since you have already used your arms to attack with. Note that CS reports the WF Slam requires both hands (thus the 1.5x Str modifier): you can't use it as an off-hand or a one-handed attack. This I don't agree with, so I houseruled it in my own campaign.
ChimericalWolf 05-22-07, 10:08 AM	Note that CS reports the WF Slam requires both hands (thus the 1.5x Str modifier): you can't use it as an off-hand or a one-handed attack. (Note that this is from memory, and I'm probably wrong, so look it up yourself before trusting me!) Disagree. A natural attack used as a primary always does 1.5 STR mod. A bite attack, after all, doesn't use two hands, and it gets 1.5.
Dr. Benway 05-22-07, 05:43 PM	@ Kreistor: WotC has never specified as to whether a slam is linked to particular limb, or whether they can slam with any limb available to them. Thus a slam could be done with an arm, as a kick, a headbutt, whatever. If you want to rule personally that they can only slam with their fists than that is your perrogative. As it stands, there is no offical ruling on it, as has been discussed. Not according to CS, and I have to agree with their reasoning. Please do point that out, as I have never seen it said anywhere. As for the x1.5 STR bonus dam, ChimericalWolf has it right in that any time you use a natural weapon as your primary attack in that round, it does STR x1.5 damage. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
dunkeykong 05-22-07, 05:58 PM	This has been discussed ad nauseum, most recently right here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=847472 But let me sum up on the salient points here. The battlefist DOES count as a manufactured weapon. In all respects it is a spiked gauntlet, right out of the PHB. Since a spiked gauntlet does not hinder manual dexterity in ANY way, then yes, you can absolutely cast spells and whatnot with it on. You can also pick locks and wield a weapon in the same hand if you choose. Now just because it counts as a spiked gauntlet when you attack with it doesnt mean you have to do so. Monks cant use spiked gauntlets without a penalty, but its value to a WF goes way beyond that usage. A WF can ALWAYS slide in a slam at the end of a full attack routine of any kind. Wether its normal attacks, a monks flurry, or whatever. Unmodified, the penalty to hit is BAB -5. If you take Second Slam and Jaws of Death, you then have three natural attacks you can throw on, and then you qualify for multiattack which reduces the penalty to these atttacks to BAB -2. For a more in depth breakdown of how all this works you should check out the link I posted above. It uses a monk as the example but the concept is sound for anyone. Hope this helped :D DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail? Ok, wow. Not that I dont trust you, But i would really like to see the official ruling on that. that goes against everything id ever heard about battlefists.
Dr. Benway 05-22-07, 09:09 PM	Ok, wow. Not that I dont trust you, But i would really like to see the official ruling on that. that goes against everything id ever heard about battlefists. Ruling about what specifically? The Battlefist description clearly states that it counts as a spiked gauntlet right out of the PhB. The description of the spiked gauntlet in no way mentions it limiting your manual dexterity. As for the rest, its all basic rules for how natural and manufactured weapons interact. The only ambiguous part of this is the ruling as to whether slam attacks are linked to specific limbs or whether a creature with a slam attack can slam with any available appendage, like a Monk's unarmed strike. So...what part are you looking for clarification on at this point...? DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Cifer 05-23-07, 08:08 AM	Ruling about what specifically? The Battlefist description clearly states that it counts as a spiked gauntlet right out of the PhB. Mind taking a look at the entire thread? More specifically the second post? The description says it "resembles" a spiked gauntlet. If I as a passionate car-lover have a birthday cake that resembles a car, can I drive around with it?
Aezrel 05-23-07, 12:15 PM	Well i've talk to alot of diferent DM's i know and all of them say it works like a manufactured weapon. so wat the dmg of this thing? the same as as spiked gauntlet (1d3 i think)? i guess i'll have a talk with my DM and see wat he thinks about all this. I was searching the MM for some rules and encontered this on the full attack description of the vampire (pg. 252 MM) full attack: a vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its natural weapons. If armed with a weapon, it usualy uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapons as a natural secondary attack this goes with what Dr. Benway was saying z
Dr. Benway 05-23-07, 04:26 PM	Well i've talk to alot of diferent DM's i know and all of them say it works like a manufactured weapon. so wat the dmg of this thing? the same as as spiked gauntlet (1d3 i think)? i guess i'll have a talk with my DM and see wat he thinks about all this. I was searching the MM for some rules and encontered this on the full attack description of the vampire (pg. 252 MM) full attack: a vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its natural weapons. If armed with a weapon, it usualy uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapons as a natural secondary attack this goes with what Dr. Benway was saying z Exactamundo. Its because you dont get to use your full interative attacks with natural wepaons. You get a specific attack routine. So if you have a BAB over 5 you will want to use those weapons and then throw in your natural wepaon attack as secondaries at the end. As for the damage...yeah as AFAIK it does normal spiked gauntlet damage for a medium critter. I could easily see houseruling that it does as much dam as a large spiked gauntlet since it is described as being sized for an ogre...but accordiing to the RAW it does normal dam for medium spiked gaunt. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
gelalshawr 05-23-07, 05:21 PM	@DocB: Nowhere in the description of the Battlefist does it say "works exactly as a spiked gauntlet" I have to agree with Cifer on this, it says "resembles a spiked gauntlet" and then goes on to describe that it enhances your natural attack, it says nothing about being a weapon that does a specific damage.
Dr. Benway 05-23-07, 07:37 PM	@DocB: Nowhere in the description of the Battlefist does it say "works exactly as a spiked gauntlet" I have to agree with Cifer on this, it says "resembles a spiked gauntlet" and then goes on to describe that it enhances your natural attack, it says nothing about being a weapon that does a specific damage. I think you are reading in too much to the somantics, but thats just my opinion. If it didnt function like a spiked gauntlet, than I dont think they would have used that specific item in its description. They would have described it by its features, not that its just like one. Altho I guess I dont understand the worry of it being a spiked gauntlet or not. It does 1d3 dam...much less than even an unmodified slam. Whats the big deal really? The battlefist's real value is to a Monk, increasing their damage by a full die category. Whether or not you can attack with iteratives for a wopping 1d3 pales pretty quick to that and the slam increase. Again tho, just my opinion. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
dunkeykong 05-24-07, 12:23 AM	@DocB: Nowhere in the description of the Battlefist does it say "works exactly as a spiked gauntlet" I have to agree with Cifer on this, it says "resembles a spiked gauntlet" and then goes on to describe that it enhances your natural attack, it says nothing about being a weapon that does a specific damage. Exactly. With the words "resembles a spiked gauntlet" they are just trying to implant an image in your head. The entry goes on to specifically state "The Battelfist increases the natural damage done by a characters slam attack" it says nothing about changing that attack to anything other that a slam attack. Somatics have nothing to do with it.
Aezrel 05-24-07, 08:18 AM	i'm ok with battlefiste only augmenting the Slam. but i have a question. My warforged artificer 2/fighter 1 uses a long sword in 1 hand and a shield in the other. Can he make the slam attack? (by the description i posted about the vampire i believe so)
ChristopherGroves 05-24-07, 11:13 AM	The general consensus is "no" as you don't have an arm free - both are doing something with an item. :shrug:
dunkeykong 05-24-07, 12:01 PM	i'm ok with battlefiste only augmenting the Slam. but i have a question. My warforged artificer 2/fighter 1 uses a long sword in 1 hand and a shield in the other. Can he make the slam attack? (by the description i posted about the vampire i believe so) A slam attack comes from the weight of the construction of the 'forged. I see no good reason why a foot or headbutt couldnt be used. Sure its not covered in the RAW, but were not talking about a claw or bite attack that could only be used with one body part, this is literally just flailing out and cracking someone skull with your heavy metal body.
Cifer 05-24-07, 12:17 PM	Altho I guess I dont understand the worry of it being a spiked gauntlet or not. It does 1d3 dam...much less than even an unmodified slam. Whats the big deal really? The battlefist's real value is to a Monk, increasing their damage by a full die category. Whether or not you can attack with iteratives for a wopping 1d3 pales pretty quick to that and the slam increase. The "big deal" is that you now have a manufactured weapon in your hand, meaning you can make a full iterative attack in addition to your slam. The damage doesn't matter that much - between the spiked gauntlet (1.5 points) and the longsword (4.5 points of damage), there's only an average difference of 3 points of damage, which can be rendered utterly irrelevant by the later enchantments, strength bonuses and all the other stuff. Effectively, by making the battlefist a manufactured weapon, you just got yourself a third hand slot.