Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GrimAlchemist 07-03-07, 07:08 PM	In regards to the Magic Weapon or Weapon Augmentation lines of spells, what qualifies as a weapon? Does it need to be a masterwork version of a weapon listed somewhere in the sourcebooks (or approved by a DM), or could a character augment his boot knife, or even an improvised weapon, like a fork sitting on a nearby table, with the benefits of these spells? Sorry if this has already been covered elsewhere, or if it's glaringly obvious in one of the rulebooks and I just glossed over it. A finger in the right direction would be fine. :)
kentonblack 07-03-07, 08:13 PM	hmm, well, no. no forks please. manufactured weapons will get the benefits of the spell. other things like beer bottles, chairs, your underwear and things of that nature...the spell will just go *foink* and putz out...
Edymnion 07-03-07, 10:11 PM	Anything can be a weapon. If you break off a table leg, its a weapon, an improvised club. I mean, the word weapon is right there in the term "improvised weapon". So, if you're going where I think you're going with this, yes, your Artificer could infuse a broken bottle with Bane and kick some ass. Saw something very similiar in an anime once, actually. Won't get into details, but the main character is essentially an artificer in that he has magic that enhances physical objects, and there is a fairly nice scene where he's in a fight and grabs a rolled up blueprint, infuses it, and proceeds to use it as a weapon, and it was enough to turn the blow of "real" weapons. So yeah, anything that can possibly deal damage is a weapon, and even some things that can't deal damage are weapons (like a net). You're not restricted to just the stuff on the weapon tables in various books.
GrimAlchemist 07-04-07, 03:15 AM	Nifty. The plan is actually to use this for one of the villains. I've had a player ranting about how weak Artificers are. I think his tune might change when one of them beats the snot out of him with a shoe. (I'm such an eeeevil DM. :evillaugh
Cifer 07-04-07, 04:51 PM	I think his tune might change when one of them beats the snot out of him with a shoe. Well, that's not exactly suprising - everyone knows that shoes are divine in Eberron... But yes, everything that deals damage when you wallop someone with it can have that damage enhanced.
DragoonDarkfire 07-04-07, 06:50 PM	Fighter looks over at Artificer. Fighter (in a whisper): Hey. Can you infuse my beer mug with Icy Burst? Minuet later... Fighter walks over to club bouncer who overcharged them. Fighter: I say good man, would you care for a sip of my beer? It's pretty cool. Bouncer: Cool beer eh? Why not. I leave the rest to your imagination.
GrimAlchemist 07-05-07, 06:23 PM	Fighter looks over at Artificer. Fighter (in a whisper): Hey. Can you infuse my beer mug with Icy Burst? Minuet later... Fighter walks over to club bouncer who overcharged them. Fighter: I say good man, would you care for a sip of my beer? It's pretty cool. Bouncer: Cool beer eh? Why not. I leave the rest to your imagination. :D That does bring up another question, though. WOULD the mug of icy burst beer deal 1d6 frost damage to it's imbiber, or would the enhancement only affect direct attacks with the beer mug? Or other items for that matter.. make your steak knife +2 keen, would it cut steak better, or only cut opponents you attack in combat more easily? I know it may sound unimportant, but players are resourceful if nothing else. I could easily imagine an artificer trying to do what was mentioned above, trying to enchant said knife, and then using it to cut through a rope, hoping it'll be severed more easily.
Grymar 07-05-07, 09:36 PM	As a matter of fact in a bar fight one of my players infused a mug with Bane (half-orc). So yeah, I think it can be done.
tenguroEd 07-05-07, 11:22 PM	you know throughout high school, Whatever i looked at I thought about ways to use items around the class room as weapons. good times, good times.
ArcTan 07-06-07, 01:50 AM	:D That does bring up another question, though. WOULD the mug of icy burst beer deal 1d6 frost damage to it's imbiber, or would the enhancement only affect direct attacks with the beer mug? Or other items for that matter.. make your steak knife +2 keen, would it cut steak better, or only cut opponents you attack in combat more easily? I know it may sound unimportant, but players are resourceful if nothing else. I could easily imagine an artificer trying to do what was mentioned above, trying to enchant said knife, and then using it to cut through a rope, hoping it'll be severed more easily. You don't get frost damage for holding your icy burst longsword, do you? So why should an icy burst improvised weapon freeze anything that's not being attacked by it? As for cutting steak, cutting *anything* with a knife counts as an "attack" (technically, in D&D terms, cutting the steak is doing damage to the steak) and so sure, the +2 enhancement bonus helps. Keen does not, though, because the steak is an object and not subject to critical hits.
Kaladon7779 07-06-07, 07:56 AM	You don't get frost damage for holding your icy burst longsword, do you? So why should an icy burst improvised weapon freeze anything that's not being attacked by it? The bouncer wouldn't get charged by ice from just simply holding it, but it was kind of funny to read though.
Edymnion 07-06-07, 08:29 AM	Yeah, the elemental damage enhancements don't affect the weilder. So, you do what I do, carry around a +1 Flaming Dagger and a +1 Frosting Dagger. Want a cold beverage? Pull out the ice dagger, and plunge it into your drink. Wait a moment, then take it out. Instant <insert drink here> on the rocks. Same with the fire dagger. Steak under-done? Stab it with your flaming dagger for a second or two. Need that camp fire going yesterday? Shove the dagger blade into the wood pile for a minute or two.
DragoonDarkfire 07-06-07, 12:11 PM	Well my thought about the little *encounter* that I talked about above was that the fighter would whack the bouncer with the mug and freeze his face shut.
GrimAlchemist 07-06-07, 08:12 PM	Well my thought about the little *encounter* that I talked about above was that the fighter would whack the bouncer with the mug and freeze his face shut. Ah, here I thought the fighter was prompting the bouncer to drink a mug-full of frosty nastiness. Aside from that, it makes perfect sense that the weapons enhancements would only affect their attacks. As for cutting steak, cutting *anything* with a knife counts as an "attack" (technically, in D&D terms, cutting the steak is doing damage to the steak) and so sure, the +2 enhancement bonus helps. And now I can't help but imagine an unsophisticated shifter forced to attend a classy dinner-party becoming frustrated at his companions constant reminder to eat his steak with his utensils, prompting him to "attack" the meal with the knife. Or, the artificer becoming frustrated at an over-cooked steak, and enchanting his utensil just so he can cut it. (Then wishing he'd saved an infusion to augment his natural bite attack so he could chew the darn thing.)
ArcTan 07-08-07, 12:49 AM	Yeah, the elemental damage enhancements don't affect the weilder. So, you do what I do, carry around a +1 Flaming Dagger and a +1 Frosting Dagger. Want a cold beverage? Pull out the ice dagger, and plunge it into your drink. Wait a moment, then take it out. Instant <insert drink here> on the rocks. Same with the fire dagger. Steak under-done? Stab it with your flaming dagger for a second or two. Need that camp fire going yesterday? Shove the dagger blade into the wood pile for a minute or two. 1d6 energy damage is a *lot* of change in temperature. In fact, it's a really crappy way to represent a constant change in temperature because of the many real-life variables that determine how changes in temperature "damage" objects. But, for comparison's sake, the most obvious comparison is in the DMG, where it says that ice has 0 hardness and 3 HP per inch of thickness, which means that 1d6 fire damage is, on average, enough to melt through an inch of ice. That's a lot of heat to apply to a surface at once (indeed, enough to give a serious burn to an ordinary person and have a good chance of badly injuring him, based on D&D stats for Commoner HP). I don't know if you want to be doing that to your steak or hot coffee.
Edymnion 07-08-07, 12:27 PM	But, for comparison's sake, the most obvious comparison is in the DMG, where it says that ice has 0 hardness and 3 HP per inch of thickness, which means that 1d6 fire damage is, on average, enough to melt through an inch of ice.Worse than that, if you're getting that number from where I think you're getting that (for walls), thats 1 foot x 1 foot x 1 inch of ice. Its enough, on average, to melt a block of ice the size of a dinner plate in a few seconds. But then, I'm fairly sure that if I put that same block of ice on my grill (assuming the melt water wouldn't put out the coals) that I'd get about the same melt rate. And given that it requires several minutes at that temperature to properly cook a piece of meat, I think it would come out about the same. Also for a good comparison, a d6 of fire damage per round is the same you take for getting into a camp fire, and we routinely stick meat right in the flames to cook it.
Symar 07-08-07, 12:41 PM	So could you pick up a halfling, infuse it with whatever, and then chuck/punt/throw it at the enemy and have it deal the bonus damage from the infusion?
DragoonDarkfire 07-08-07, 04:40 PM	So could you pick up a halfling, infuse it with whatever, and then chuck/punt/throw it at the enemy and have it deal the bonus damage from the infusion? Infusions only work on objects and constructs nimrod.
Edymnion 07-12-07, 05:42 PM	Infusions only work on objects and constructs nimrod.Heh, while stated with less tact than even I employee, the basic idea is correct. By definition you can only use an infusion on an object or a creature of the construct type. Which also invalidates the natural weapon infusions in Races of Eberron, which target a creature touched, not an object.
Symar 07-12-07, 07:18 PM	Infusions only work on objects and constructs nimrod. Well, just cause I don't know how infusions work doesn't make me a 'nimrod'. But thanks for the clarifications, Edymnion.
Cifer 07-12-07, 07:51 PM	Which also invalidates the natural weapon infusions in Races of Eberron, which target a creature touched, not an object. It works as soon as you use and infuse special ointments or e.g. metal claw tips which are then put on the natural weapon. After all, artificers also have the [Animal]'s [Trait] line of infusions which should be changed as well before they can be used.
GrimAlchemist 07-12-07, 11:38 PM	It works as soon as you use and infuse special ointments or e.g. metal claw tips which are then put on the natural weapon. After all, artificers also have the [Animal]'s [Trait] line of infusions which should be changed as well before they can be used. The Animal's Trait line of infusion works by augmenting an object the creature carries, imbuing it with the enhancement bonus, turning it into a temporary magic item. The Natural Weapon Augmentation line of spells are dysfunctional because they specify a 'creature touched' as the target, when infusions were clearly limited to constructs or objects. But as always, you could house rule if you'd like and change the natural weapon augmentations function by changing the target to an object touched, which imbues the enhancement effect to one of the creature's natural weapons, e.g. a Ring of Magic Fang.
Edymnion 07-13-07, 12:35 PM	Yes, the "infusion" specifically says "Target: Creature Touched", and nowhere does it say that you use an intermediary. Thats the problem. The infusion, as written, does not work because it's target is always (except for constructs) and invalid target for an infusion to begin with.
Kamikaze Chicken 07-13-07, 01:04 PM	perhaps the authersof those infusions were thinking of the natural weapons of constructs, and thus did not forsee the need to clarify? KAMIKAZE! :chicken: out.
OgreBane99 07-13-07, 02:07 PM	While we're on this topic, can an articier (using an infusion) augment a unarmed strike (that of a monk) with the magic weapon infusion? What about a natural attack from a living creature, such as a troll? Can a cleric cast magic weapon on the unarmed strike of a monk? What about the natural attack of a living creature? This came up last session in my game, and I'm not 100% up on the magic weapon spell.... thanks!
Edymnion 07-13-07, 04:43 PM	perhaps the authersof those infusions were thinking of the natural weapons of constructs, and thus did not forsee the need to clarify?Nope, because the infusion is specifically listed as having additional effects if used on a construct.
Ozymandias V. 07-14-07, 01:30 AM	What is a weapon? A miserable little pile of secrets!
ZappoHisbane 07-15-07, 06:07 PM	While we're on this topic, can an articier (using an infusion) augment a unarmed strike (that of a monk) with the magic weapon infusion? What about a natural attack from a living creature, such as a troll? Can a cleric cast magic weapon on the unarmed strike of a monk? What about the natural attack of a living creature? This came up last session in my game, and I'm not 100% up on the magic weapon spell.... thanks! Magic Weapon only affects manufactured weapons, thus cannot be used on natural attacks. You want to use Magic Fang (a Druid spell) in those cases. Monks are a special case because their unarmed attacks can be treated as manufactured weapons, and thus can benefit from either spell. Infusions still need to be cast on an object, so I don't think that they'd work on a Monk's unarmed strikes despite their specialness. That's just my gut feeling and is not backed up by any specific recollection of RAW, FAQ or whatever. Still nothing to stop you from infusing an ordinary glove or boot and letting the Monk go to town though.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-16-07, 05:30 PM	Worse than that, if you're getting that number from where I think you're getting that (for walls), thats 1 foot x 1 foot x 1 inch of ice. Its enough, on average, to melt a block of ice the size of a dinner plate in a few seconds. But then, I'm fairly sure that if I put that same block of ice on my grill (assuming the melt water wouldn't put out the coals) that I'd get about the same melt rate. And given that it requires several minutes at that temperature to properly cook a piece of meat, I think it would come out about the same. Also for a good comparison, a d6 of fire damage per round is the same you take for getting into a camp fire, and we routinely stick meat right in the flames to cook it. So, a 1 in X 1 in X 2 in roughly ice cube can survive for 10 to 15 seconds on a gas grill used for cooking steaks in a steak house. I know this first hand. Thats generally over 2 rounds of combat. So, basically, a professional broiler does something like 1 fire damage every two to three rounds. A steak takes roughly 2 1/2 minutes to cook to medium. That's 25 rounds, or 10 (roughly) fire damage. So, 1d6 fire damage per stab means that a level 11 fighter can cook a steak to medium in about six seconds.
ArcTan 07-17-07, 07:38 PM	So, a 1 in X 1 in X 2 in roughly ice cube can survive for 10 to 15 seconds on a gas grill used for cooking steaks in a steak house. I know this first hand. Thats generally over 2 rounds of combat. So, basically, a professional broiler does something like 1 fire damage every two to three rounds. A steak takes roughly 2 1/2 minutes to cook to medium. That's 25 rounds, or 10 (roughly) fire damage. So, 1d6 fire damage per stab means that a level 11 fighter can cook a steak to medium in about six seconds. Except that if you apply the total amount of heat it takes to cook a steak to medium in 2.5 minutes to the steak all at once in 6 seconds, what you get is not a steak cooked to medium but a steak singed to charcoal. Myself, I would imagine stabbing a steak with a flaming weapon leads to a steak with a crispy black stab wound in it surrounded by still-raw steak.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-18-07, 01:09 AM	Ah, but it works, because it's magic. Really. Yeah, okay not so much.
yossarius 07-20-07, 01:57 AM	You don't get frost damage for holding your icy burst longsword, do you? So why should an icy burst improvised weapon freeze anything that's not being attacked by it? This thought occurred to me: When you infuse a longbow with, for example, icy burst, the longbow transfers this ability to its ammunition. So, although the beer in the icy burst mug might not do frost damage when drank, does it if you throw the beer (but not the mug)? I suppose you could say that, because the mug is itself an improvised weapon, rather than designed to fling beer, it doesn't convey its special abilities to its contents. Or does it? But if it does, it would seem odd that although the beer doesn't get super-cold while in the mug, it does as it exits. How's that for a bizarre thought experiment?
ArcTan 07-20-07, 04:05 AM	How about this: Weapon enhancements only work for their intended purpose, which is to cause harm by enhancing the fighting potential of a device intended as a weapon. They can't be used for purposes not intended by the creator of the enhancement, because magic, unlike technology, is a quasi-sentient force that always takes intention into account. This philosophy not only solves this issue but a ton of other stupid issues created by the existence of magic as well.
yossarius 07-20-07, 10:14 AM	I don't think that is an attitude I'd adopt in my game. It seems to me this is tantamount to telling your players, "Stop thinking for yourselves. If you can't fill the accepted, assigned roles dictated by your race/class choices, go play some other, less structured game." Personally, I encourage my players to think of unusual ways to do things, including the way they use magic. It shows they're paying attention. Better that than blankly pick up a weapon and try to solve every problem by hacking at it.
Edymnion 07-20-07, 12:03 PM	How about this: Weapon enhancements only work for their intended purpose, which is to cause harm by enhancing the fighting potential of a device intended as a weapon. They can't be used for purposes not intended by the creator of the enhancement, because magic, unlike technology, is a quasi-sentient force that always takes intention into account. This philosophy not only solves this issue but a ton of other stupid issues created by the existence of magic as well.And just totally quashes any and all attempts at creativity from your players. I happen to like it when the players think outside the box and stick their frosting sword in front of a drain pipe, letting it ice over and block the exit, filling the room with water so they can reach a high ledge. Just hope they have enough time and a good way out though!
TiwazTyrsfist 07-20-07, 04:37 PM	This thought occurred to me: When you infuse a longbow with, for example, icy burst, the longbow transfers this ability to its ammunition. So, although the beer in the icy burst mug might not do frost damage when drank, does it if you throw the beer (but not the mug)? I suppose you could say that, because the mug is itself an improvised weapon, rather than designed to fling beer, it doesn't convey its special abilities to its contents. Or does it? But if it does, it would seem odd that although the beer doesn't get super-cold while in the mug, it does as it exits. How's that for a bizarre thought experiment? Icy Burst Squirt Gun. You do it right, it will leave bruises...
yossarius 07-20-07, 05:29 PM	Icy Burst Squirt Gun. You do it right, it will leave bruises... The exact same thing occurred to me after that post, but I was going to bed. Yes, I am a game-nerd, but not so much so that I would actually forestall going to bed just to add that idea.
ArcTan 07-20-07, 08:27 PM	And just totally quashes any and all attempts at creativity from your players. I happen to like it when the players think outside the box and stick their frosting sword in front of a drain pipe, letting it ice over and block the exit, filling the room with water so they can reach a high ledge. Just hope they have enough time and a good way out though! Even by the rules you're talking about, holding the sword in front of the drain pipe won't work. You have to hit the drain pipe itself. Indeed, you have to do damage to it, likely breaking it and causing all other kinds of issues. (Not that this wouldn't work, but it'd be complicated. I wouldn't let anyone get away with the idea that because they have an icy weapon, they have Iceman-like powers that let them freeze exactly what they want where they want.) (Ruleswise, you can't "hit" water with a weapon, because water is a liquid medium, not a solid object, and therefore has no HP and can't have any kind of energy damage done to it. Flavorwise, we know that simply touching the blade of an enchanted weapon doesn't do damage to you, or they'd be a lot more dangerous to carry around than they are.)
OgreBane99 07-20-07, 11:14 PM	(Ruleswise, you can't "hit" water with a weapon, because water is a liquid medium, not a solid object, and therefore has no HP and can't have any kind of energy damage done to it. Flavorwise, we know that simply touching the blade of an enchanted weapon doesn't do damage to you, or they'd be a lot more dangerous to carry around than they are.) A water elemental is just water that can form into a shape. You can "hit" a water elemental.
ArcTan 07-21-07, 06:04 AM	A water elemental is just water that can form into a shape. You can "hit" a water elemental. Water Elementals and water are different. Water Elementals *turn into* water when their HP reaches 0 -- doing damage to the Elemental is therefore hardly doing damage to the water. (Just like doing damage to a human being is not the same thing as doing damage to the human's corpse. After the human dies, after all, the corpse is still an object with HP.) You don't need high-level arguing about elementals and magic and crap like that. By the rules of D&D, objects need to be *solid* objects, or they aren't considered objects at all. The rules for creatures are different, but even the rule for what happens when an object gets hit and loses HP -- that if its HP reaches 0, it breaks into two or more pieces, and each of those pieces is now a separate object with its own HP -- doesn't make any sense for non-solid things like water.
OgreBane99 07-21-07, 02:11 PM	Water Elementals and water are different. Water Elementals *turn into* water when their HP reaches 0 -- doing damage to the Elemental is therefore hardly doing damage to the water. So if water elementals aren't "water" until they are effectively destroyed (less than 0 HP), what are they then?
ZappoHisbane 07-21-07, 02:33 PM	So if water elementals aren't "water" until they are effectively destroyed (less than 0 HP), what are they then? A Water Elemental *is* water, but while it's "alive" it is a creature. You can hit creatures. When you destroy a Water Elemental, the energy that was animating the water is gone, and you're just left with water. What if we changed this arguement slightly so that we're dealing with an Air Elemental instead? Are you going to say that you can deal damage to it, and thus should be able to sunder the atmosphere?
ArcTan 07-22-07, 07:36 AM	So if water elementals aren't "water" until they are effectively destroyed (less than 0 HP), what are they then? They're... Water Elementals. Clearly there's a difference between a Water Elemental and just water, isn't there? Just water doesn't have a slam attack or Int 3. I mean, this is getting kind of ridiculous. Technically Air Elementals are "made of air", but that doesn't mean you can "damage" air by swinging a sword through it. (How much HP must the air inside your average dungeon room have, given all the swords being swung through it constantly? What happens when it reaches 0?) You can't "damage" water either. You can damage a Water or Air *Elemental* because it's some kind of magical creature *made* of water or air that somehow takes damage to its internal structure when you whack it with something. Just like you can damage a *Human* by whacking it until it reaches -10 HP, but that's not the same as damaging the *corpse*. (For instance, you can make the Human reach -10 HP by doing things to the Human that don't damage the corpse at all, like poison or mind-affecting effects or asphyxiating him.) This is highly relevant for things that require an intact corpse to work, like raise dead or animate dead (the definition of an intact corpse being a corpse with more than 0 HP, just like an intact sword is a sword with more than 0 HP). That's the thing -- HP for *creatures* measures how close the creature is to dying, while HP for *objects* measures how close the object is to breaking apart. The two are very different concepts. When I damage a Water Elemental with a sword I'm somehow disrupting the forces that animate it and bringing it closer to dying, but I'm not damaging the *water* that makes up the Water Elemental, because, well, water is just water. Water can't "break into pieces" from being physically hit. You can't assign water a number of HP and a hardness. You can hit an animated lump of water until it's not animated anymore, but that doesn't make it not *water* anymore. This distinction is very clear for Animated Objects. Objects' HP varies by what substance they're made of -- an adamantine suit of armor has way more HP than a wooden suit of armor or woolen cloth suit -- but for the purposes of the animate objects spell, any Construct made by turning any of those objects into an Animated Object will have exactly 31 HP (the HP total of all Medium Animated Objects) and will only differ in their hardness -- because every Animated Object of the same size has the same amount of "vitality" animating it that has to be depleted by damaging it in order to de-animate it (and a de-animated object therefore does not necessarily have depleted HP in its *object* form, i.e. has not necessarily been sundered).
OgreBane99 07-22-07, 02:15 PM	This distinction is very clear for Animated Objects. Objects' HP varies by what substance they're made of -- an adamantine suit of armor has way more HP than a wooden suit of armor or woolen cloth suit -- but for the purposes of the animate objects spell, any Construct made by turning any of those objects into an Animated Object will have exactly 31 HP (the HP total of all Medium Animated Objects) and will only differ in their hardness -- because every Animated Object of the same size has the same amount of "vitality" animating it that has to be depleted by damaging it in order to de-animate it (and a de-animated object therefore does not necessarily have depleted HP in its *object* form, i.e. has not necessarily been sundered). Well said.
Elderich 07-26-07, 06:53 PM	Even by the rules you're talking about, holding the sword in front of the drain pipe won't work. You have to hit the drain pipe itself. Indeed, you have to do damage to it, likely breaking it and causing all other kinds of issues. (Not that this wouldn't work, but it'd be complicated. I wouldn't let anyone get away with the idea that because they have an icy weapon, they have Iceman-like powers that let them freeze exactly what they want where they want.)Edys point was that players should be creative, and allowed to be creative. One could argue that one strikes the pipe and does minimum damage, which triggers the icy effect, and is absorbed by the pipes hardness. Granted you have pointed out that such "creativity" could cause power creep, or disproportional power for a character of the party. That is a good point for D&Ders to keep in mind. If something might work, and is fun than go with it... But don't try and rely on or abuse it.
ArcTan 07-26-07, 08:50 PM	Edys point was that players should be creative, and allowed to be creative. One could argue that one strikes the pipe and does minimum damage, which triggers the icy effect, and is absorbed by the pipes hardness. Granted you have pointed out that such "creativity" could cause power creep, or disproportional power for a character of the party. Which is exactly what I meant by the "Iceman" comment. Next he'll be trying to freeze a river to walk across it, or make a wall of ice in the middle of combat, or "freeze" a dead body to preserve it for the sake of casting raise dead a week too late, and so on.
yossarius 07-26-07, 08:57 PM	Granted you have pointed out that such "creativity" could cause power creep, or disproportional power for a character of the party. That is a good point for D&Ders to keep in mind. If something might work, and is fun than go with it... But don't try and rely on or abuse it. I'm not saying this isn't a valid point (it is). However, there comes a point for every DM when (s)he must decide which concept he is loyal to: his players' enjoyment of the game, or the spirit of the game. Any group of resourseful players will eventually make you make this choice. Choosing the spirit of the game over your friends might seem like the noble choice at the time, and I'd be lying if I didn't understand how one could make that choice. Before you make this choice, however, it is important to keep in mind that the spirit of the game will not drink beer with you. The way I see it, the whole purpose of the game is to give you and your friends an excuse to hang out and have fun. It is important to never forget that, at it's most basic level, we are all getting together to play pretend. In my opinion, if you are treating the rules of your game as being more important than everyone having fun, you're missing the point. Personally, I see no problem with letting the players get away with doing something unique like using a frost weapon to freeze a little bit of water. Does it jive with RAE? Of course not. So what? It shows creativity, and more importantly, it shows that the player who thought of it is thinking outside of "video game RPG logic". In my opinion, video game RPGs have had a more detrimental effect on D&D than all the "D&D is satanic" rhetoric I've ever heard. I of course expect to be told I'm wrong by saying this, but it's been my experience that players who play alot of video game RPGs are more likely to look for the more formulaic (if that's even a word) means to solve a problem, where as "traditional" RPG players tend to find more original ones. And yes, those original solutions sometimes fly in the face of the RAE. And again, I don't care about that.
Ricohard_Draconis 08-05-07, 01:59 PM	And yes, those original solutions sometimes fly in the face of the RAE. And again, I don't care about that. and more often than not common sense.
yossarius 08-07-07, 04:36 PM	and more often than not common sense. Granted.
ArcTan 08-07-07, 11:46 PM	Choosing the spirit of the game over your friends might seem like the noble choice at the time, and I'd be lying if I didn't understand how one could make that choice. Before you make this choice, however, it is important to keep in mind that the spirit of the game will not drink beer with you. I'd like to think I have friends who respect me and respect the game enough to respect the idea that the game is overall better when it makes sense.