13th Moon Disappearance: War of the Mark or Age of Giants? [Archive] - Wizards Community

13th Moon Disappearance: War of the Mark or Age of Giants? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Takasi
03-09-05, 02:26 PM I posted this on the D&D Online boards and thought I'd bring it up here too for discussion:

There's some odd meta-game history of the 13th moon. In the Ask Keith Baker thread on the WotC site, Keith answered that the moon disappeared during the Age of Giants, presumably after the disjunction of Dal Qor (the plane of dreams). After releasing the setting, the developers had a chat session over on WotC. I asked when the 13th moon was destroyed and one of the other developers (not Keith Baker) said it occurred during the War of the Mark, presumably when the Mark of Death disappeared. However, Keith then made a mistell to the public chat that was intended for private chat. He asked the developer something along the lines of "Didn't the moon disappear during the Age of Giants?"

It now appears that Keith's statement prevailed overall. However, there is an issue with some material in the ECS. I asked this question last July:

Takasi Q: What was the name of the 13th moon associated with the Mark of Death? Which season was associated with it?

Keith A: Who are you asking? It vanished long before human civilization existed. But details will appear in the future.

Takasi Q: I would ask the Committee of Twelve. On page 245, Alder d'Cannith says "The moons suggest that the perfect number of dragonmarks is thirteen." He must have been aware of the thirteenth moon, and if he was quoted then it is probably pretty common knowledge for those familiar with the Houses.

Keith A: Touche! Of course, Alder d'Cannith was commonly thought to be insane, so you may be mistaken in the assumption that it's quoted because everyone agreed with him -- but he was a brilliant architect! Still, it's a good point, but not one I'm going to address without have support from the full development team.

My theory is that there was a miscommunication about this issue when developing the ECS. (BTW, the excerpt from page 245 on Alder d'Cannith relates to a time period a millenia ago, prior to the War of the Mark.)

Personally it seems more consistent to have the moon disappear with the War of the Mark. The moons have a direct relationship with dragonmarks, thus the disappearance of the Mark of Death could trigger the loss of the moon. You could also speculate that it was vice versa (perhaps the moons caused it, providing a fate vs free will arguments in the setting).

If it did disappear during the Age of Giants, it probably happened when the orbit of Dal Qor changed. This implies that the moons, planes and dragonmarks are related, but so far the relationships aren't established. I don't see anything connecting them; does anyone else? The number (13) is obvious, but then again there are also 13 constellations (each one based on the gods of the Dragons). Thirteen being a Baker's dozen and a reoccuring number in the setting...
Edymnion
03-09-05, 03:11 PM I prefer the "Lost in the Age of Giants" version.
When Dal Quor's connection was severed, it snapped back, and knocked the 13th moon into a higher orbit. Meaning its still there, it just isn't accessable. Perhaps it was knocked into a highly excentric orbit, meaning its now a very stretched out oval, meaning that it could come back close enough to Eberron for short periods of time every X thousand years.
Takasi
03-09-05, 04:48 PM But what's the connection between the loss of the Mark of Death and the moon associated with it?

Why do you prefer the Age of Giants explanation? It's too convoluted to me, at least as it stands. It implies a connection between the moons and planes, but there's no supporting material for this. Why would the Mark of Death be associated with Dal Quor? Why not Mabar or Dolurrh?

And I apologize, I did not mean the War of the Mark, I meant the War of the Elves and Dragons over the Mark of Death.
Demon in Shades of Gray
03-09-05, 06:46 PM There IS the little detail of there being a prophesy...

prophesies predict what is to come in the future, right? perhaps, with the severing of planar ties to Dal Quor, the moon disappeared as an omen of what was to come.

something like "The end of the war with Dal Quor set in motion a series of events that would culminate in the elimination of the Mark of Death. This series of events was heralded by the disappearance of the moon."
Edymnion
03-10-05, 01:58 PM But what's the connection between the loss of the Mark of Death and the moon associated with it?Have you considered the possibility that it was just a coincidence? There is no evidence that dragonmarks are linked to the moons in the first place. Heck, the moon was lost BEFORE the dragonmarks appeared! I mean, the only connection we've got is the numbers, the lost Baker's Dozen. But there are 13-1's all over the setting, and there's no reason to believe that they are all connected with each other.

But there is an expressed connection between the moons and the planes, and it makes a heck of a lot more sense that the moon went missing at the same time all access to that plane was severed. A lot more sense than it does that an entire moon vanished because a handful of elves died.
motorfirebox
03-10-05, 02:39 PM given the striking number of similarities between the moons, the marks, and the planes, i think it's logical to assume that they are all connected. however, given the extreme lengths of time between the disappearances, they might not necessarily be connected by direct cause. that is, the moon may not have disappeared because a bunch of elves died; the elves may not have died because dal quor was forcibly removed from the common cosmology; dal qour's disappearance may not have caused the disappearance of the 13th moon.

instead, the missing mark, the missing moon, and the distant plane may be, for lack of a better term, symptoms. i imagine that there is a behind-the-scenes something that has set the "missing Baker's dozen" pattern, some sort of source entity to which the moons, the marks, and the planes are all connected. the moons, the marks, and the planes are therefore no more directly connected than are the branches of a tree; but, like the branches, they draw from a common root system.

and, of course, that common root is very much wrapped up in the Prophecy.
Eternal One
03-13-05, 05:37 AM The dragonmarks ARE tied with the moons, see for yourselves.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050307a

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Takasi 03-09-05, 02:26 PM	I posted this on the D&D Online boards and thought I'd bring it up here too for discussion: There's some odd meta-game history of the 13th moon. In the Ask Keith Baker thread on the WotC site, Keith answered that the moon disappeared during the Age of Giants, presumably after the disjunction of Dal Qor (the plane of dreams). After releasing the setting, the developers had a chat session over on WotC. I asked when the 13th moon was destroyed and one of the other developers (not Keith Baker) said it occurred during the War of the Mark, presumably when the Mark of Death disappeared. However, Keith then made a mistell to the public chat that was intended for private chat. He asked the developer something along the lines of "Didn't the moon disappear during the Age of Giants?" It now appears that Keith's statement prevailed overall. However, there is an issue with some material in the ECS. I asked this question last July: Takasi Q: What was the name of the 13th moon associated with the Mark of Death? Which season was associated with it? Keith A: Who are you asking? It vanished long before human civilization existed. But details will appear in the future. Takasi Q: I would ask the Committee of Twelve. On page 245, Alder d'Cannith says "The moons suggest that the perfect number of dragonmarks is thirteen." He must have been aware of the thirteenth moon, and if he was quoted then it is probably pretty common knowledge for those familiar with the Houses. Keith A: Touche! Of course, Alder d'Cannith was commonly thought to be insane, so you may be mistaken in the assumption that it's quoted because everyone agreed with him -- but he was a brilliant architect! Still, it's a good point, but not one I'm going to address without have support from the full development team. My theory is that there was a miscommunication about this issue when developing the ECS. (BTW, the excerpt from page 245 on Alder d'Cannith relates to a time period a millenia ago, prior to the War of the Mark.) Personally it seems more consistent to have the moon disappear with the War of the Mark. The moons have a direct relationship with dragonmarks, thus the disappearance of the Mark of Death could trigger the loss of the moon. You could also speculate that it was vice versa (perhaps the moons caused it, providing a fate vs free will arguments in the setting). If it did disappear during the Age of Giants, it probably happened when the orbit of Dal Qor changed. This implies that the moons, planes and dragonmarks are related, but so far the relationships aren't established. I don't see anything connecting them; does anyone else? The number (13) is obvious, but then again there are also 13 constellations (each one based on the gods of the Dragons). Thirteen being a Baker's dozen and a reoccuring number in the setting...
Edymnion 03-09-05, 03:11 PM	I prefer the "Lost in the Age of Giants" version. When Dal Quor's connection was severed, it snapped back, and knocked the 13th moon into a higher orbit. Meaning its still there, it just isn't accessable. Perhaps it was knocked into a highly excentric orbit, meaning its now a very stretched out oval, meaning that it could come back close enough to Eberron for short periods of time every X thousand years.
Takasi 03-09-05, 04:48 PM	But what's the connection between the loss of the Mark of Death and the moon associated with it? Why do you prefer the Age of Giants explanation? It's too convoluted to me, at least as it stands. It implies a connection between the moons and planes, but there's no supporting material for this. Why would the Mark of Death be associated with Dal Quor? Why not Mabar or Dolurrh? And I apologize, I did not mean the War of the Mark, I meant the War of the Elves and Dragons over the Mark of Death.
Demon in Shades of Gray 03-09-05, 06:46 PM	There IS the little detail of there being a prophesy... prophesies predict what is to come in the future, right? perhaps, with the severing of planar ties to Dal Quor, the moon disappeared as an omen of what was to come. something like "The end of the war with Dal Quor set in motion a series of events that would culminate in the elimination of the Mark of Death. This series of events was heralded by the disappearance of the moon."
Edymnion 03-10-05, 01:58 PM	But what's the connection between the loss of the Mark of Death and the moon associated with it?Have you considered the possibility that it was just a coincidence? There is no evidence that dragonmarks are linked to the moons in the first place. Heck, the moon was lost BEFORE the dragonmarks appeared! I mean, the only connection we've got is the numbers, the lost Baker's Dozen. But there are 13-1's all over the setting, and there's no reason to believe that they are all connected with each other. But there is an expressed connection between the moons and the planes, and it makes a heck of a lot more sense that the moon went missing at the same time all access to that plane was severed. A lot more sense than it does that an entire moon vanished because a handful of elves died.
motorfirebox 03-10-05, 02:39 PM	given the striking number of similarities between the moons, the marks, and the planes, i think it's logical to assume that they are all connected. however, given the extreme lengths of time between the disappearances, they might not necessarily be connected by direct cause. that is, the moon may not have disappeared because a bunch of elves died; the elves may not have died because dal quor was forcibly removed from the common cosmology; dal qour's disappearance may not have caused the disappearance of the 13th moon. instead, the missing mark, the missing moon, and the distant plane may be, for lack of a better term, symptoms. i imagine that there is a behind-the-scenes something that has set the "missing Baker's dozen" pattern, some sort of source entity to which the moons, the marks, and the planes are all connected. the moons, the marks, and the planes are therefore no more directly connected than are the branches of a tree; but, like the branches, they draw from a common root system. and, of course, that common root is very much wrapped up in the Prophecy.
Eternal One 03-13-05, 05:37 AM	The dragonmarks ARE tied with the moons, see for yourselves. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050307a