Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Emirikol 02-20-05, 03:05 PM	Our group recently switched from the 32 point-buy to the 25 point-buy. Wow, what a change! It's been such a relief as both a player and a DM to see a break in the power level. We've had to use our heads a LOT more. When we were at 32 points, it was like having 'the cheats to a CRPG.' Too many points, combined with a magic-item-rich world like Eberron can be disasterous to a DM's will. The Eberron: Mark of Heroes campaign also uses the 25 point-by campaign, and so we wanted to be able to play those as they were intended. It also gives 'real benefit' to gaining those ability scores as you level. Since our campaigns no longer go to munchkin-high level, we may even consider adding another point in there somewhere. jh
scaryfroman 02-20-05, 03:15 PM	I've played all over the board with the numbers, and I have found that you really need at least 28 points. Anything less will get you kind of subpar stats. The biggest problem comes with Monks and Paladins, which are almost impossible to play with 25. Both require several stats to be effective, and without at least 2 16s, they don't run too well. Something else to think about is that the CO people have figured out that the 4d6 drop lowest comes out to about 30 points on average, which is a good deal better than 25.
Edymnion 02-20-05, 03:24 PM	25 point buy is actually underpowered. Default stat generation by the book is 4d6 drop lowest. The outcome with the highest probability of being rolled with that method is a 13. Straight 13's across the board is a 30 point buy. Generally lets you have a 16, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10. I personally don't consider that to be overpowered in the least. In my games at least, the PCs are supposed to be better than your average commoner, able to do things normal people just can't do.
talion09 02-20-05, 03:26 PM	I agree that it is hard to play a viable monk or paladin in a 25 pt buy system. It is fine for classes that only need one primary stat, but if you need to have STR, WIS, CHR, DEX, etc... it makes the character really less powerful than the other classes that only need one primary and maybe a secondary class. I've found that it has the effect of increasing the numbers of "iconic" classes, such as fighters, clerics, wizards, rogues, etc. And it decreases the numbers of the more "exotic" base classes, such as paladins, monks, and to a lesser extent, bards and rangers. Keep in mind that with the 25 pt buy, clerics tend to be much less efficient at turning undead, since most of your points go to wisdom, and then it is a choice between combat/survival (con & str) or turning/"face" skills (Cha). So the relative danger of undead encounters becomes greater, even when you take into account the average drop in power from having lower stats. But all this is not necessarily a bad thing. It makes paladins and monks rare, and makes the more "basic" fighters, rogues, etc to be more plentiful. Which is really how I envision most worlds, with monks being exotic and paladins being the chosen few. However, I was surprised that Eberron's Mark of Heroes was using the 25 pt buy, since in my mind Eberron-style pulp heroes should of been a cut above the "average", in both having PC classes, and also in stats. Not necessariy uber-powerful powerful stats, but higher than a 25 pt buy...
ekomega 02-20-05, 03:36 PM	In my games, I have started having the PCs make characters with a flat +8 bonus, however the PCs want it, before racial modifiers. To make it "fair" they get to pick three even and three odd stats. I figured this out by rolling 4d6 and dropping the lowest about 50 times, then looking at the statistical distribution of the results. It turned out that +7 was the most rolled, with +8 coming sort of close. I just chose +8 because it gave the PCs a little extra edge. I was tired of PCs rolling and some being lucky and getting +12 and others being unlucky and getting +6 and then being angry. Also, the point buy didn't appeal to me because if you want a high stat you really have to pay for it. I don't know how "balanced" it is, but the challenges I throw at them seem right, and so it works.
Bluebrush 02-20-05, 03:40 PM	I use a system where you get 18 points each to spend on physical and mental stats and can trade points from these resovoirs on a two-for-one basis. (So either 18 in both physical and mental or 22 in physical and 10 in mental so on and so fourth.) It helps keep paladins, bards and sorcerers viable while avoiding the problem of people funneling all their points to get two 18s. It also allows for mentally able physical types (Like Daine/all the other clever fighter-leader characters from fiction) and physically able brainiacs. It's worked pretty well so far. Most people seem to go for the 18/18 distribution. (And of course, how many points you get is easily adjustable by the DM for low/high power.)
NeoMorpheus 02-20-05, 03:53 PM	Ah, stat generation....One of the topics that surely brings up a heated debate. I try to do different things with each game I run, so I change the method of stat generation for each game. Currently, I'm running two games and I used two different methods: 1) Eberron- The player had a choice...1d10+8 in order or 4d6 arranged to taste. All of the players (but one) selected the 1d10+8 (avg. is 13.5) and let their rolls decide what they were going to be. The scores, by player, were: Player 1: 18,17,18,11,15,16 Player 2: 13,15,15,14,16,16 Player 3: 14,14,15,12,11,12 and I don't have Player 4's numbers (the 4d6 choice) handy. Pretty high-powered, but manageable. 2) The New Argonauts-2 rolls of 1d10+8, 2 rolls of 4d6 and 2 rolls of 3d6. The selection for the attributes had to be made before the rolls. Very interesting PCs were created (both because of the stat gereation system and the setting). Here are the results after the rolls and the addition of +2 to one stat because of the PC being a greater scion of a god. Player 1-14,12,15,9,10,18 (scion of Ares) Player 2-6,20,18,17,14,9 (scion of Artemis) Player 3-15,17,8,13,4,10 (scion of Hermes) Player 3 has decided that the low WIS manifests as his PC always saying whatever comes to his mind. Player 2 has decided that his low STR and somewhat low CHA means he is portly. I like the fact that stat generation is just the beginning of the process and the numbers can help define a PC, but are not the sole determinate.
stembolt 02-20-05, 04:16 PM	The question is not so much that of power but of planning. Using the 25 point buy (or my favorite, the elite/default array) means that you really, really have to think about your characters goals. If you want to take two weapon fighting or combat expertise or power attack you really need to plan for it. It is much harder just to throw a character together with those kind of stats. Also a character cannot do everything. A cleric cannot cast spells, turn undead, be the party diplomat and fight melee. But they could do two of those things. Playing with these stats is hard. And that is the difference. If you want a genuine challenge, this is the method for you. If you want a looser game 32 points is more of a fit
Edymnion 02-20-05, 04:22 PM	I've also done 2d6+6, but that one didn't work out very well for some reason.
Gunrock 02-20-05, 04:26 PM	Of course, if you have a small group (3 players and a GM), 25 point buy means that the PCs will all live or die at the same time (mostly die). The solutions I've tried that have worked are: Many NPCs (fine until the DM starts arguing with himself), Two or more PCs per player (one tends to get neglected during play), more starting points / more powerful generation. For fantasy games, I tend to use a ridiculously powerful generation system; 4d6, reroll 1s. So, the three ones and a 2 can suddenly turn into an 18. It's more powerful than 5d6, but not as bad as the 1d10+8 (you can still have a 6). Now, for Modern games I love the point buy. 25 - 30 depending on how cinematic I want it to be. But that's really teh province of another forum.
Edymnion 02-20-05, 04:36 PM	Now, for Modern games I love the point buy. 25 - 30 depending on how cinematic I want it to be. But that's really teh province of another forum.Yeah, but Modern games are a lot more focused in a single stat. You've got Smart Heroes, Fast Heroes, Strong Heroes, etc. Its much easier to have a one-shot-wonder (stat wise) in Modern than it is in D&D.
Emirikol 02-20-05, 05:01 PM	Should a low-level character always have an 18? What kind of sadistic DM's out there do we have that make low level so deadly? This get's into 1st edition vs. 3.5 philosophy, but I think the 'high initial scores' caters to player self-indulgence and 1st-ed.-think (jib jab). The advancement of ability scores evolved out of those old limitations. My guess is 4th edition will have lower initial abilities and ability advancement every level..but that's getting off topic. Anyways, here's the deal: How many undead does a 1st level cleric *really* expect to fight anyways? * An 18 cha would mean that he needs to face: Turn check average: 14 (CLR level +1) Average number of Skeletons turned: 11 Number of Turn checks per day: 7 # of Skeletons he could face at FIRST LEVEL: 77 What kind of sick-arse Eberron DM is going to throw 77 skeletons at his party at first level? Isn't this supposed to be a world that's a little deeper than that? ;) jh
Greyson 02-20-05, 05:26 PM	... I have found that you really need at least 28 points. Anything less will get you kind of subpar stats. I agree with this sentiment whole heartedly. I initially had issues with the 28-point buy. But, as I played several characters with this Point Buy, I saw the balance that it conveyed to the game. I really like Point Buys because they take the randomness out of character creation. Sure, it's fun to roll dice. But it's more fun to take a structured and fair system of points and assign and adjust them as you choose. a 25-point buy system is way too low, and I was surprised and disappointed to see Eberron's Mark of Heroes lean that way. I think the Living Greyhawk campaign has proved that the 28-point buy is superior. But, what do a bunch of Greyhawkers know? lol Thirty-two points is way too much. I allowed a 32-point buy once as a game referee, and I regretted it big time. I use published adventures, and I found myself DM-cheating constantly to keep the game interesting for the characters with overpowering ability scores. Happy gaming.
Edymnion 02-20-05, 05:41 PM	Thirty-two points is way too much. I allowed a 32-point buy once as a game referee, and I regretted it big time. I use published adventures, and I found myself DM-cheating constantly to keep the game interesting for the characters with overpowering ability scores.Well, it really depends on what kind of characters you've got. A half-orc barbarian is going to do just fine on a 25 point buy, while a Warforged Paladin is going to be nearly unplayable even on a 32 point buy. Really, this is why I like playing with a mature group that I can trust. When I say "Just give your character whatever stats you think fits them", and I can trust they aren't going to have 18's all over the place, its a great thing.
Greyson 02-20-05, 06:11 PM	... this is why I like playing with a mature group that I can trust. When I say "Just give your character whatever stats you think fits them", and I can trust they aren't going to have 18's all over the place, its a great thing. That's a good point, Edymnion. And I can certainly see a situation of regular gamers who know each other playing ability scores by ear like that. I play organized RPGA games almost exclusively. Of course we have our regulars. But there are always new faces at Gamedays and Conventions. So, the Point Buy system is very important in maintaining a fair starting point for character creation. And, just to reiterate, I think the 28-point buy is the best way to generate character ability scores. I think this system will make it fair for both the barbarian and warforged noted above. Good discussion, guys. But why in the Eberron board? Hopefully, the Mark of Heroes references will keep it legal, lol.
Brahzs M'ahnkei 02-20-05, 06:36 PM	Our group played 32 pt. PCs in Forgotten Realms quite happily for some time, but when we decided to play Eberron, we switched to a 27 pt build. It was a conscious effort on the group's part to really play into the feel and story of the new (for us) setting. It's been a challenge for some members of the group getting used to characters of lower power, but it's been a lot of fun. I would definately agree that a lower point-build forces you to plan ahead and focus your characters abilities. A couple of our guys ended up min-maxing their stats for combat, while others focused in on skills, while still another has completely focused on artificing (is that a word? :thinks: ) Our party has gone through a several evolutions to get to this point- it's a learning process. But that's part of the fun, isn't it? ;)
NeoMorpheus 02-20-05, 06:46 PM	Thirty-two points is way too much. I allowed a 32-point buy once as a game referee, and I regretted it big time. I use published adventures, and I found myself DM-cheating constantly to keep the game interesting for the characters with overpowering ability scores. Now this is an interesting statement. I find that I can challenge the PCs irregardless of what their stats are. As a matter of fact, in our Eberron game, I have found it to be more interesting for me because it forces me to think of better ways to challenge the PCs (instead of just throwing "more" at them). More NPC interaction, more non-combat situations and a greater frequency of "pulp" action has increased the enjoyment of the game for me. Ironic, since I am big low-magic, gritty fan for the most part...
Edymnion 02-20-05, 07:44 PM	That's a good point, Edymnion. And I can certainly see a situation of regular gamers who know each other playing ability scores by ear like that.Oh, it can work for other people too, if you tack the appropriate threat to it. "Give your character whatever stats you think they need. However, if I think you went too far, I'll cut them back to what I think is fair, and then take another 2d4 points off on top of that." They'll typically undermake their characters at that point, out of fear of getting cut even worse. I play organized RPGA games almost exclusively. Of course we have our regulars. But there are always new faces at Gamedays and Conventions. So, the Point Buy system is very important in maintaining a fair starting point for character creation. And, just to reiterate, I think the 28-point buy is the best way to generate character ability scores. I think this system will make it fair for both the barbarian and warforged noted above.Well, not really. Using a 28 point buy, you could get a 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10. Those are good stats, for someone with no racial modifiers. If we take that WF Paladin though, thats +2 Con, -2 Cha, -2 Wis. You're going to need a 14 in Wisdom to get all your spell levels. So, we get: STR: 14 + 0: 14 DEX: 10 + 0: 10 CON: 10 + 2: 12 INT: 10 + 0: 10 WIS: 16 - 2: 14 CHA: 14 - 2: 12 Is that really fair compared to the Half-Orc Barbarian that can dump everything into Strength and Con, and be perfectly happy with minimum scores in everything else?
zambuka 02-20-05, 10:07 PM	So, we get: STR: 14 + 0: 14 DEX: 10 + 0: 10 CON: 10 + 2: 12 INT: 10 + 0: 10 WIS: 16 - 2: 14 CHA: 14 - 2: 12 Is that really fair compared to the Half-Orc Barbarian that can dump everything into Strength and Con, and be perfectly happy with minimum scores in everything else? It may look a little down, but comparing the WF Paldin vs the HO Barbarian is like comparing a HO wizard to a halfling rogue or the Dwarven Bard to a Human Wizard. Some class/race combinations are just really hard to pull off and some will end up highly optimised. Sure... as a barbarian HO you can put all the stats into strength and con but if you have a good DM he will make you pay dearly for leaving your CHA and WIS and INT at the lowest level possible. Imagine, trying to negotiate passage on the Lightning rail with the Half Orc picking his nose and scratching at his nether regions in the background. Your front man may be a CHA 18 bard with maxed out skills in diplomacy and bluff but the answer is still likely to be "Sure you can ride in the carriage but that has to ride in a cage in baggage." The WF Paladin is still quite playable, unless you are in a serious Hack 'n Slash type game. Choice of character creation method and point levels really come down to the choice between role play and roll play.
Edymnion 02-20-05, 10:27 PM	It may look a little down, but comparing the WF Paldin vs the HO Barbarian is like comparing a HO wizard to a halfling rogue or the Dwarven Bard to a Human Wizard. Some class/race combinations are just really hard to pull off and some will end up highly optimised.Yeah, which was rather my point. With rolling, its possible to get an effective WF Paladin, if you get lucky. Depending on the point buy, it can be difficult or impossible. Now, I'm probably one of the biggest proponents of PB for a fair and balanced game, for being able to build a character and not just a character sheet, and all of that, but it does have it's limitations. And really, the lower the PB you use, the more you restrict which race/class combinations are playable and which aren't.
Beleriphon 02-20-05, 10:31 PM	The WF Paladin is still quite playable, unless you are in a serious Hack 'n Slash type game. Choice of character creation method and point levels really come down to the choice between role play and roll play. Choice of character and stats is never a function of "rollplay" vs "roleplay". :rolleyes: It is always a function of "epic play" vs "wussified nancy boy I want to be an immortal creature of the night and writh in agnst of over my hideous inhuman prediciment play". See, the most famous characters in history always have "good stats". Hercules was no slouch, he was super strong, and was pretty bright as well. Heck even the merely mortal Odysseus could do stuff that all the normal suitors couldn't do, on top of being one of the most brilliant characters to grace Greek mythology. For a slightly less epic turn, lets try Shakspeare instead. Hamlet, not a stupid man, and certainly more than capable in other areas, obviously he has a weak Fort Save, but thats hardly the point. At any rate, I'm going with 25 point buy is not enough. I'm personally in favour of true randomness, thus 4d6 drop the lowest. You're stuck with what you get (unless we're talking about the barely sentient character can't pick up a small bag of coins).
Korimyr the Rat 02-20-05, 10:58 PM	I think 30 is really more correct for 4d6 drop lowest. In my games, I usyally start at 25, but instead of giving a flat +1 ability score every fourth, I give increasing point buy points-- 4 at 4th, 8 at 8th, and so on. Characters start a cut above the average Joe, and as they advance in levels, they stand out more and more above their adventuring peers.
zambuka 02-21-05, 12:08 AM	It is always a function of "epic play" vs "wussified nancy boy I want to be an immortal creature of the night and writh in agnst of over my hideous inhuman prediciment play". That is a much better way of putting it than the cliched roll vs role. See, the most famous characters in history always have "good stats". Hercules was no slouch, he was super strong, and was pretty bright as well. Heck even the merely mortal Odysseus could do stuff that all the normal suitors couldn't do, on top of being one of the most brilliant characters to grace Greek mythology. These guys are truly epic, you can eventually reach these levels of power. When these guys started their epic stories they were already experienced warriors and commanders, their stories didn't start with them when they first left home. You can try a campaign like this. But a 1st level character with Herculean strength? For a slightly less epic turn, lets try Shakspeare instead. Hamlet, not a stupid man, and certainly more than capable in other areas, obviously he has a weak Fort Save, but thats hardly the point. Sure, not a stupid guy and quite combat capable. But still doable with a 25 point buy system providing the rest of the world is made via a similar system, his capabilities come from experience as much as from natural prowess. It sure is nice to start at the top, but it can be just as fun claw your way there, this is where dnd is at it's strongest, you are meant to start out as inexperienced and only a little stronger than the Joe Average of the setting. Reach 5th level and you are Hamlet level of experience, level 10 and you are Odysseus (at the start of the Illiad), level 15 and you can wrestle with Hercules, level 20 and you can confidently go tell Zeus that if he brings that marked deck along one more time he is out of the poker group. This is, in a way one of the fundamental things about Eberron. It makes a good effort to reset the power creep that other campaign settings have. You don't need much more than an 18 intelligence in Eberron to fill the role Elminster with his Intelligence of 24 (or whatever) fills in FR, so you can still aspire to great heights even with "low" stats. 25 points is playable with a good DM. The levels you gain emphasise your superiority over the average joe more than your ability scores do. And your extra powers, like a paladin's smite and his mount, become much much more significant. But that said, I use a straight 76 or 78 point for point system for character creation. For comparison 76 = about 27 point buy and 78 = about 29. It doesn't get abused because my players know how much a dump stat can really hurt them (see my previous post in this thread, something like this happened in an FR campaign but I just decided to Eberronise it)
stembolt 02-21-05, 12:15 AM	At any rate, I'm going with 25 point buy is not enough. Now let me start out by saying my current group uses 32 point buy. For those of you who think that 25 point buy is not “enough.” The real question is “not enough what?” Not enough of a challenge? Not enough to easily make a character? Both of those responses are correct, if that’s what you are looking for. With 32 points you can make a cleric who can do everything clerics might do, or you can make a fighter with TWF and combat expertise and still have your highest stat in Str. With 25 points you have a challenge. It is actually difficult to get the 13s you need to qualify for feats. Now let me stress – Some people want a challenge, Some people want to give themselves a break on character development. Neither is better than the other. It depends on what kind of game you want.
Beleriphon 02-21-05, 04:31 AM	25 points is playable with a good DM. The levels you gain emphasise your superiority over the average joe more than your ability scores do. And your extra powers, like a paladin's smite and his mount, become much much more significant. That is true, but I've never been a fan of 25 point buy. If, or more importanly when, I use any kind of point buy I go with a minimum of 28, it give slightly more points meaning that characters start slightly better off. It also means that unless you want two stats to be over 16 a player can get reasonably good stats in what they think is important. As a player I'm partial to 32 point buy, but only because I tend to play esoteric characters that end up being rather poorly designed from a mechanical stand point and the extra points help to balance out the inadequcies (for example, half orc monks that end up with a starting AC of 9). Anyhoo, I stick with my nancy boy comment, but thats only from the attitude that a certain undead based RPG seems to invoke in its fans (stupid Storyteller....) :devil:
TranquilDarkness 02-21-05, 07:25 AM	Essentially I don't much care how a Dm wants to allocate scores - any scores can work fine if it fits with the rest of the campaign - but I prefer high scores. We have never used the official point-buy system: if we do point-buy we just give one big pile of points and let the player divide them as he sees fit. Usually something between 76 and 82 points. Even though it's perfectly possible to play with scores ranging from 8-14 I just don't see such individuals as 'the heroic type', but more as the 'Joe average'.
Blizzard_Bobsan 02-21-05, 07:37 AM	I don't like point buy, I use the default 4d6 system. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with a little bit of luck and variation in the character generation - an even start may be more fair, but isn't as fun, nor realistic. My players never had a problem with that - for them it is a challenge to play once in a while a weak character with a net +1 modifier or to play a character with some stat at 5. I know that many players prefer the point buy system, but I still think they are missing a lot of fun and that games with characters with widely different starting stats are often more interesting and convincing.
MrFilthyIke 02-21-05, 08:19 AM	Some example 25 point-buy "hard to play classes" that *I* think are decent: Male Elf Monk 1 Lawful Neutral Strength 14 (+2) Dexterity 16 (+3) Constitution 10 (+0) Intelligence 9 (-1) Wisdom 15 (+2) Charisma 8 (-1) Size: Medium Height: 5' 3" Weight: 125 lb Skin: Pale Eyes: Green Hair: Dark Brown; Straight; Beardless Total Hit Points: 8 Speed: 30 feet Armor Class: 15 = 10 +3 [dexterity] +2 [wisdom] Touch AC: 15 Flat-footed: 12 Initiative modifier: +7 = +3 [dexterity] +4 [improved initiative] Fortitude save: +2 = 2 [base] Reflex save: +5 = 2 [base] +3 [dexterity] Will save: +4 = 2 [base] +2 [wisdom] Attack (handheld): +2 = 0 [base] +2 [strength] Attack (unarmed): +2 = 0 [base] +2 [strength] Flurry of Blows: -1/-1 Attack (missile): +3 = 0 [base] +3 [dexterity] Grapple check: +2 = 0 [base] +2 [strength] Region of Origin: Aerenal Languages: Common Elven Unarmed Damage: 1d6 Nanchaku [1d6 crit x2, 2 lb., light, bludgeoning] Feats: Improved Initiative Improved Unarmed Strike [monk] Stunning Fist [monk] Traits: Action Points: 5 (this level) Skill Balance Dex* 6 = +3 +3 Jump Str* 6 = +2 +4 Knowledge (arcana) Int 0 = -1 +1 Knowledge (religion) Int 0 = -1 +1 Listen Wis 4 = +2 +2 [elf] Search Int 1 = -1 +2 [elf] Spot Wis 4 = +2 +2 [elf] Tumble Dex* 6 = +3 +3 Genderless Warforged Paladin 1 Lawful Good Strength 14 (+2) Dexterity 9 (-1) Constitution 10 (+0) Intelligence 10 (+0) Wisdom 12 (+1) Charisma 14 (+2) Height: 6' 2" Weight: 280 lb Skin: Silvery Eyes: Green (glow) Hair: None Total Hit Points: 10 Speed: 20 feet [adamantine] Armor Class: 19 = 10 +2 [heavy steel] -1 [dexterity] +8 [adamantine plating] Touch AC: 9 Flat-footed: 19 Initiative modifier: -1 = -1 [dexterity] Fortitude save: +2 = 2 [base] Reflex save: -1 = 0 [base] -1 [dexterity] Will save: +1 = 0 [base] +1 [wisdom] Attack (handheld): +3 = 1 [base] +2 [strength] Attack (unarmed): +3 = 1 [base] +2 [strength] Attack (missile): +0 = 1 [base] -1 [dexterity] Grapple check: +3 = 1 [base] +2 [strength] Region of Origin: Cyre (displaced) Languages: Common Dagger [1d4, crit 19-20/x2, range inc 10 ft., 1 lb., light, piercing] Longsword [1d8, crit 19-20/x2l 4 lb, one-handed, slashing] Shortbow [1d6, crit x3, range inc. 60 ft., 2 lb., piercing] Heavy Steel Shield [+2 AC; check penalty -1; hardness 10; hp 20; 15 lb.] Feats: Adamantine Body Traits: Action Points: 5 (this level) Skill Name Key Diplomacy Cha 4 = +2 +2 Knowledge (religion) Int 3 = +0 +3 Sense Motive Wis 4 = +1 +3 Female Changeling Bard 1 Chaotic Good Strength 9 (-1) Dexterity 14 (+2) Constitution 10 (+0) Intelligence 14 (+2) Wisdom 12 (+1) Charisma 14 (+2) Height: 5'7" Weight: 130 lb Skin: Gray Eyes: White Hair: White; Straight Total Hit Points: 6 Speed: 30 feet Armor Class: 16 = 10 +4 [chain shirt] +2 [dexterity] Touch AC: 12 Flat-footed: 14 Initiative modifier: +2 = +2 [dexterity] Fortitude save: +0 = 0 [base] Reflex save: +4 = 2 [base] +2 [dexterity] Will save: +3 = 2 [base] +1 [wisdom] Attack (handheld): -1 = 0 [base] -1 [strength] Attack (unarmed): -1 = 0 [base] -1 [strength] Attack (missile): +2 = 0 [base] +2 [dexterity] Grapple check: -1 = 0 [base] -1 [strength] Region of Origin: Breland Languages: Common Gnome Halfling Dagger [1d4, crit 19-20/x2, range inc 10 ft., 1 lb., light, piercing] Light Crossbow [1d8, crit 19-20/x2, range inc 80 ft., 4 lb, piercing]] Longsword [1d8, crit 19-20/x2l 4 lb, one-handed, slashing] Chain shirt [light; +4 AC; max dex +4; check penalty -2; 25 lb.] Feats: Extra Music Traits: Action Points: 5 (this level) Skill Name Key Balance Dex* 6 = +2 +4 Bluff Cha 8 = +2 +4 +2 [changeling] Diplomacy Cha 6 = +2 +4 Gather Information Cha 6 = +2 +4 Intimidate Cha 4 = +2 +2 [changeling] Knowledge (arcana) Int 4 = +2 +2 Knowledge (local) Int 4 = +2 +2 Perform (singing) Cha 6 = +2 +4 Sense Motive Wis 3 = +1 +2 [changeling] Tumble Dex* 6 = +2 +4 Use Magic Device Cha 6 = +2 +4 All valid characters. Not muchkins, but not one trick ponies either. All characters courtesy of http://www.pathguy.com/eberron.htm
Lokiyn 03-08-05, 10:01 PM	Well there is always expanding the scale down into the negative and letting them sell stats for points. That tends to things like the int 6 barbarian who is very strong. Ot the int 18 wizard with a str 6
Gunrock 03-08-05, 10:16 PM	Yeah, but Modern games are a lot more focused in a single stat. You've got Smart Heroes, Fast Heroes, Strong Heroes, etc. Its much easier to have a one-shot-wonder (stat wise) in Modern than it is in D&D. Normally, Endymnion, your posts are full of insight and wisdom. This would be an exception. Modern characters need well rounded stats as much as a Palladin does. If a group has 4 characters, all of whom focused on one stat, they the party will fail in every encounter, combat or otherwise. With the free multi-classing and the emphasis on a balance of skills, combat and RP you need good stats in every ability (especially Con, thanks to MDT). That said, back to the topic! Some good arguements here. I think that what you go with is dependant on what sorts of games you want to play. As long as everyone has fun, it's all good.
AvonRekaes 03-09-05, 03:11 AM	As an experiment, I'm going to run a 45 point-buy gestalt game. One reason for doing so is because I'd love to play in a game like that myself, but I want to see just how big a strain it is on the DM. Another reason... I believe someone on these boards once said that nothing is broken if the DM has the skills to deal with it. I once threw a CR 28 creature at a level 18 party and he encounter ended with the results I wanted it to... So this monster of a game will be a test of my skills as a DM, to see what I can come up with to challenge possibly the most broken characters I've ever seen.
RamblingScribe 03-09-05, 09:42 AM	I've used a variety of systems, and right now I somewhat prefer point buy. Currently I'm running a group who used 32 points. I'm toying with the idea of next running a 25 point-buy game and only allowing NPC classes. Of course, I will have to scale everything in the game to make it work and make sense. I will probably also allow characters to buy some class features as per the generic characters in UA (I think that's what they are called). Either that or I may allow some kind of mechanism for taking regular core class levels as PrCs. Craig Shackleton, The Rambling Scribe
Lalato 03-09-05, 11:04 AM	Here's how my group does it... |S|D|C| I| | | | W| | | | C| | | | Roll 4d6 (drop lowest) and put it in each square of the grid. Then you choose which of three scores you'll use for each ability. You can't use the same score on more than one ability. This usually results in characters with decent stats, but it's still not a guarantee that you'll get great stats. I myself have rolled a grid with nothing higher than a 12. The grid also works with straight up 3d6 for less than epic characters. And if you're looking for PCs to be a cut above the rest, you might also try 6+3d6 (drop lowest). --sam
Lalato 03-09-05, 11:10 AM	I'm toying with the idea of next running a 25 point-buy game and only allowing NPC classes. Of course, I will have to scale everything in the game to make it work and make sense. I will probably also allow characters to buy some class features as per the generic characters in UA (I think that's what they are called). Either that or I may allow some kind of mechanism for taking regular core class levels as PrCs. I had thought about doing something like that before. Everyone starts out as NPC classes and by taking a feat they would gain access to a specific PC class. --sam
lukelightning 03-09-05, 11:46 AM	My problem with low PC scores is that I see a lot of hypocracy in published adventures: you encounter NPC's with a lot of high stats (orc clerics with 14 int, 16 wis, 14 cha, meaning the base stats would be 16, 18, 16, etc.)
imperialjunkie 03-09-05, 04:05 PM	4d6 is cool except that too many people cheat. I'm about to run an Eberron campaign at a local shop that has mostly kids between the age of 12 and 16. I've looked at their character sheets from other games. They all cheat. They ain't cheatin' this time. I'm up in the air about which to do- 4d6 while I watch or 28 point buy. They'll all be a little ticked about a point buy, but I imagine the first time one of them rolls a 6 or 7 the individual kid is going to quit. I'll probably go with the point buy then. I think lower-powered stats in Eberron works better. Yes, the PCs are a cut above the rest, but based on what I'm seeing, 'the rest' aren't much to sing about. In my opinion, a starting character with 16 14 12 12 10 10 is going to be fairly heroic in an Eberron campaign.
LordofIllusions 03-09-05, 04:47 PM	I give the players a choice: 3d6 rolled 12 times, keep the highest 6 scores, arrange to taste. 4d6, rolled six times, drop the lowest number each time -or- 28 points, Nonstandard point buy What amazed me is that the video gaming munchkin who recently left the gaming group(right before we were about to throw him out) still had something to complain about, because he chose the 28 point buy method(instead of one of the other two methods), and he claims he cannot create a character because (1) He picked the 28 point methos, and (2) In the Knights of the Old Republic video game(Did I mention he was a video game fanatic?) 30 points are used. Where do we get these losers ? ~~~
LordofIllusions 03-09-05, 04:54 PM	As an experiment, I'm going to run a 45 point-buy gestalt game. One reason for doing so is because I'd love to play in a game like that myself, but I want to see just how big a strain it is on the DM. 45-point buy. You playing Marvel SuperHeroes or D&D ? Another reason... I believe someone on these boards once said that nothing is broken if the DM has the skills to deal with it. I once threw a CR 28 creature at a level 18 party and he encounter ended with the results I wanted it to... So this monster of a game will be a test of my skills as a DM, to see what I can come up with to challenge possibly the most broken characters I've ever seen. The person that said that was probably you(or a friend of yours), under another username, trying to justify your munchkin status. Just kidding. But for real, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Who goes into a game with the intention of trying to get at the DM, rather than enjoying a good game of D&D with a group of friends(DM included), except a very lonely, pitiful munchkin with a grudge against the DM whom will probably soon be kicking him(the munchkin) out of the group anyway. ~~~