| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Edymnion04-23-08, 09:07 PM | http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=224516&page=1&pp=30 The Gamer Dome has a Forgotten Realms scoop from the GAMA trade show: Forgotten Realms 4e is three books, period, done, end of line: Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Player’s Guide to FR, and DM’s Guide to FR. All settings will be done like that, one per year, until they run out of settings. They mentioned Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, and Spelljammer as settings on their list! Eberron, of course, is the ‘09 setting release (same three books), but it will also get DDI updates starting in June. WotC's Chris Sims comments here on The Gamer Dome's information: ... the news bite is wrong. The three books are: Campaign Guide (DM), Player's Guide (players, and DM for good measure), and Adventure (everyone). Check the 2008 Wizards D&D Product Release Schedule for FR game product. And the fact that a setting is "on the list" shouldn't be taken as "Wizards is definitely publishing this setting." It just means the setting is on the list for possible future use.Okay, if this is true, then its just another thing to add to the "oh hell no" catagory of 4e revelations. So we're getting stillborn campaign settings this time around? A setting book, a player's guide, and a module, thats it? Welp, considering that Eberron was the only real chance in hell WotC had to drag me kicking and screaming into 4e (like they did for 3.5), it looks like they blew it. Any and all setting information for Eberron will have to come from the 3e books, which means Eberron is apparently going to stay a 3e game. |
| Paulon04-23-08, 09:46 PM | Well, judging by posts I've seen, there's going to be additional support material in the DDI. Of course, speaking for myself so far I haven't seen anything in the DDI that makes it worth paying money for, despite all the promises after the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon. What I've read so far looks more like a case of "We've given this away for free, now we're going to charge you for it". :( If the new stuff is going to be posted there, I'm not going to be seeing it as things stand. Add the comments and debate on the ENworld forums about the way the new 3rd party license is going, and I'm getting well and truly pushed off the fence away from the new edition. I'll pick up the first books for reference and curiosity, and the Eberron books when (or if) they show up, but aside from that? The last week or so has done a heck of a lot to sour me on the whole new edition. |
| Forged_For_Hire04-23-08, 09:49 PM | Wow, that hit me hard. Now, my players are really not gonna want to convert over to 4e. Thanks for the heads up, Edymnion. This is a sad day. |
| Edymnion04-23-08, 10:50 PM | Well, judging by posts I've seen, there's going to be additional support material in the DDI.DDI support material isn't books though. And since you absolutely cannot preview that material before you sign up for DDI (as opposed to thumbing through the book in the store), your ability to make informed, intelligent purchases is reduced to zero. It still boils down to this (accourding to this information, anyway): There will only be three Eberron books for the entire lifespan of fourth edition, and one of them isn't even a sourcebook, its a :censored:ing adventure module. WotC will then drop Eberron like a hot potato, and not touch it again. Faerun might be able to survive that, its got 20 years of material to fall back on. Eberron though? Its still a kid as far as settings go. A kid that just got abandoned on the 4e doorstep. I mean, I honestly did not think that WotC could screw us any more than they already were, but this is just outrageous. Its bad enough they expect us to wait a year after launch for Eberron material, but to then turn around and have it only be two :censored:ing 3e reprints? Keith, come on, tell us this is a bad joke. Because if it isn't, game over man, game over. |
| OneWinged4ngel04-24-08, 12:33 AM | Welp, considering that Eberron was the only real chance in hell WotC had to drag me kicking and screaming into 4e (like they did for 3.5) You too? Eberron was the only reason I came back to D&D as a system, despite its many flaws. |
| Mystrich04-24-08, 12:45 AM | What I've read so far looks more like a case of "We've given this away for free, now we're going to charge you for it". If the new stuff is going to be posted there, I'm not going to be seeing it as things stand. Well, it seems there's a lot of neat features, although the biggest one (dungeon creator) isn't even going to be something you have to pay for. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080422a But ya, my decision to by or not buy 4th ed is going to be decided once I see the SRD for it, as so far, very little looks good to me. |
| Webster04-24-08, 03:42 AM | But ya, my decision to by or not buy 4th ed is going to be decided once I see the SRD for it, as so far, very little looks good to me. The SRD is NOT going to be the D&D rules. It's going to be a list of items that 3rd parties can use to create D&D things for, from what I understand. For example, "Page 35, 36, and 37 may be used. Page 38 may not be used except the third, fourth and fifth paragraphs." (Or somesuch.) |
| ChaoticGood04-24-08, 03:49 AM | Webster - reference please? A conversation with my roommate two nights ago: Me: "So, it turns out that the news of a 4th Edition OGL is a double-edged sword. Guess what a third-party publisher has to do in order to make use of the new OGL?" Him: "What, cease production of 3rd Edition material?" Me: "Oh, you heard that already?" Him: "No, I just figured it's the kind of d*** move that they'd try. Why? Ohhh... I'm right?" |
| Moblin04-24-08, 04:49 AM | Well personally I'm not really going to complain. Both in the case of FR and Eberron I only got the CS (well and faith and pantheons for FR too). I prefer not to have to much info on the campaign world. I want to have a district in Sharn where all the towers broke and are kept floating through emergency magic. Well nothing preventing me according to the CS but according to S:CoT, there's no such thing. Want the lightning rail to look a specific way, well no problem except for the players who read Adventures guide. And thats the really the main problem. I might not have to use the material I don't like it, but that doesn't prevent my players from coming into the game expecting that things work according to that material because they read the books. That being said I'm kinda surprised if this is WotC's new business model but not because I necessarily find it stupid. Personally I have no idea about how much of the DnD sales are campaign settings and additions to those, but I can imagine that there's less people buying S:CoT then MIC. Seeing as groups tend to settle on just one setting they'll rather have a non campaign specific book then a book belonging to another setting. Also I think that we'll see a lot more player books then DM books as the first should sell 5:1 (in theory) compared to the later. I guess it's all business (and rumors) and it'll be interesting to see how it all turn out once the rules are finally out so we can stop guessing. |
| Rauric04-24-08, 07:58 AM | This is what they will try for the first year to get people into DDI. It is probably the only way they could do it I think because even pro 4E people like myself are not into the whole DDI deal. Look at how they are not putting a flashy FOrgotten Realms on the FR book. It will be just a normal 4E style look. WOTC thinks that core books sell more than Setting books IMO and they have decided to just publish core books that all consumers will buy and leave the niche setting market to go to DDI for their fix. This is not me being negative, I am just seeing it for what it might be. If it fails then we will see print books again. I am not fond of the idea but will not be dramatic like an FR forum person about it. :P At least I will not have to spend all that money on picking up BOTH settings at once. My wife will be pleased. I actually have enough ideas from the 3E stuff to keep my games going for years. More info is nice but I do not really need it yet. Imagination FTW! This will leave a nice opening for other companies to write non-campaign specific supplements that people can drop into any setting. @Moblin. I feel bad for ya. It sounds like your going through FRitus where the players start to say "That's not how it works". That is really annoying. Every DM should say at the start of his game "This is my take on the setting" then explain how EB or FR at his/her table. |
| Fabius Maximus04-24-08, 09:09 AM | This is what they will try for the first year to get people into DDI. I think you're right. Add this to one PHB with new classes each year (and restricting class options to be able to put out new classes), I'd feel seriously ripped off if I'd started to buy 4e products. |
| Rauric04-24-08, 09:22 AM | I would love it if both settings produced less books if the quality of the books they did publish was top notch stuff. I read online that somebody will get DDI but only after 6 to 9 months after is is out. Hopefully by that time the bugs will be worked out. I like this idea. Fans are collecters though and some people just "need" everything about a setting they can get their hands on. |
| lonewolf04-24-08, 10:23 AM | Sorry guys but do you honestly believe that they are gonna print only 3 FR and Eberron books? :nonono: Of course they are gonna print many many more books because they want to sell them. They know that there are enough FR and Eberron fans out there that will buy most if not every book that they print about their favorite setting and thus they will release those books. Im starting to get pretty sick of those completely unreasonable "apocalypse scenario" - rumours. Just think for a second before you freak out. |
| Edymnion04-24-08, 11:16 AM | Sorry guys but do you honestly believe that they are gonna print only 3 FR and Eberron books?Honestly, it makes sense from the standpoint we see WotC taking this time around. Simplified rules, lack of out of the box gameplay options, and the simple fact that setting books are very niche. Only a small subset of the overall market will buy a setting book. And then, only a subset of those who bought the setting book will buy a splatbook for that setting. So yes, I do think this is something WotC would actually pull. If they really are pulling it or not is the question. One that hopefully Keith could answer with a single "I'm working on an Eberron sourcebook that isn't the CS or PG" comment. |
| illathid04-24-08, 02:57 PM | As an Eberron fan it does kinda suck that there will only be 3 books released. However, as a planescape and spelljammer fan I'm ecstatic as this means it's more than likely that that we'll see updates to those settings. It seems that releasing a bunch of books for a setting isn't a profitable business model for a company the of size of Wotc, but this does open up other possibilities. Over on ENworld it's been discussed that there is a possibility of WotC licensing the settings out to other companies once they've made the core rulebooks for the settings. A small company would be able to produce more books and still keep it a profitable venture. Also, if things happened in a somewhat descent manner it could mean that a certain fiendish cow could produce books for a certain setting with a much greater degree of creative control. But thats just me being overly optimistic. |
| Rauric04-24-08, 11:56 PM | Sorry guys but do you honestly believe that they are gonna print only 3 FR and Eberron books? :nonono: Of course they are gonna print many many more books because they want to sell them. They know that there are enough FR and Eberron fans out there that will buy most if not every book that they print about their favorite setting and thus they will release those books. Im starting to get pretty sick of those completely unreasonable "apocalypse scenario" - rumours. Just think for a second before you freak out. I think they are seeing that Core books sell more than Setting books which only sell to a subset of D&D consumers. So at least for the first year there may only be 3 books. Maybe longer if DDI does really well. |
| Paulon04-25-08, 01:05 AM | More likely if they find DDI does well, it'll discourage WotC from releasing specific campaign information in physical formats. :( |
| Hellcow04-25-08, 08:52 PM | Keith, come on, tell us this is a bad joke. I'm with Rauric. I don't think it's a bad joke. I think it's something they're considering... but what, if 4E FR books sell like hotcakes and people are begging for more, are they really going to say "No, we simply can't possibly do another one! We gave our word that it would be three and out, and we couldn't possibly back down." The logic behind it is obvious. Setting-specific books are innately going to sell fewer copies than books that can be used in any setting. DM-only books are going to sell fewer copies than books that can be used by any player. Thus, setting-specific DM-only books are targeting a small market. The cost and risks involved in producing such material as online content are trivial compared to doing a full print run. As I see it, that's the basis of this plan. But whether they STICK with the plan is an entirely different question. If no one buys the three books they do put out, it's a sure bet that they won't do any more, because it will just serve as confirmation of the "settings don't sell" argument. If the books do well, then you may see people in the company pushing for more setting books beyond the core three. On the issue of "DDI stuff is just what they used to give us for free" and "Keith could make this go away by telling us he's working on a different sourcebook" - well, I can't tell you that. But I can tell you that I'm working on an Eberron piece for Eberron that's not only larger than anything I've written for the WotC website, but is also larger than anything I wrote for Paizo (Eternal Evil, Touched By Madness, Dreadhold, Ring of Storms, etc). It's certainly true that what you've gotten for Eberron so far has essentially been the same stuff you used to get for free... but the collary to that is that you've been getting it for free. I think you'll find that once the real service goes live there's some significantly heftier material. The fact of the matter is that I don't blame WotC for thinking a Five Nations style book covering Zilargo is a risky venture. I love my gnomes, but I know that not even every Eberron DM is going to go for it. If they're willing to let me do a Five Nations chapter-length piece on DDI about Zilargo, then the way I look at it, I'm getting to produce something for Eberron I'd never get to produce otherwise. (Mind you, the piece I'm working on now isn't Zilargo - but it's dealing with a topic that is similarly close to my heart and that I've wanted a chance to write about in more detail for some time). So am I thrilled with the three-and-out idea? Of course not. But I am excited at the opportunities I'm seeing with DDI, and I'm also far from convinced that three-and-out will stick... though at the end of the day, I think that's really up to you guys. I'll also just note that I don't see the 4E books as ":censored:ing 3e reprints". Obviously I understand why you're expecting them to be this way. They do have to cover the old material in sufficient detail so that someone who's never played the setting before can run it with just the 4E books. At the same time, I see this as a huge opportunity to address mistakes in the early books and to focus on the aspects of the setting are often overlooked. And because we're working on the two books in concert, we can finally deal with the whole issue of secrets and all of that sort of thing - creating a player's book that really is for PLAYERS. Beyond that, you'll also see some completely new material. The timeline may not be moving forward, but that doesn't mean that we can't bring in other things going on in 998 YK that we just didn't focus on before - or pay more attention to organizations that have been mentioned in passing but never given much focus. In terms of seeing these as reprints of the PGtE and ECS, I'd throw the PGtE (and its sidebars) out the window; because of the gap between the two, the PGtE really duplicates a lot of ECS material, and also includes lots and lots of "Here's how to use (random thing from other 3E sourcebook) here." With the 4E Eberron books, it's a matter of taking all the purely player info out of the ECS and setting in in the player's guide, which is after all a resource for both players and DMs. Things like new spells and feats don't need to be in the ECS; again, that's player material. Which means that the ECS WILL have more room to expand on past topics... or to introduce new material. And aside from all of that, as I said, it's a chance to look back and identify things which were poorly presented from the start, things that have been contradicted over time, and similar issues, and really resolve them. So sure, I'm not in love with this idea. But I'm not going to worry about it until I see these books sell tremendously well and the people at WotC STILL say "Nah, we made a promise"... or when the DDI people tell me "Nope, we're done with Eberron material." For now, what I know is that I'm producing material that I really like; I hope that you will too. |
| Nerdicus04-25-08, 09:46 PM | (Mind you, the piece I'm working on now isn't Zilargo - but it's dealing with a topic that is similarly close to my heart and that I've wanted a chance to write about in more detail for some time). K. Baker himself. Do I smell an ancient goblinoid empire that totally rules!? It fits with the goblinoid info I have gleamed thus far from the Wizards Presents books, and would slay! |
| Hellcow04-25-08, 10:01 PM | Do I smell an ancient goblinoid empire that totally rules!? I'm not allowed to say what the Baker is cooking... but the goblins of Eberron is certainly one of those topics I've wanted to tackle for a long, long time. |
| Rageofthemodrons10104-25-08, 10:16 PM | Hmm....I guess it could be a sign that it will be more or less like 3.5, though judging by the stat previews I've seen:nonono: :surrender :banghead: :noway: I guess were in for a storm. My greoup is going to try out 4e, but if it' too distanced we'll be holdouts. |
| Hellcow04-25-08, 10:50 PM | [Edit] On second thought, never mind. Best to stay on-topic. |
| skrap-san04-26-08, 12:42 AM | Figures that it takes Keith to make me calm about 4th ed again... Well by the way that it looks now I will end up playing both 3rd and 4th for a long long time into the future. |
| Edymnion04-26-08, 12:44 AM | but what, if 4E FR books sell like hotcakes and people are begging for more, are they really going to say "No, we simply can't possibly do another one! We gave our word that it would be three and out, and we couldn't possibly back down."Well, lets look at the schedule. If they're going to be doing 3 setting books a year, every year, on top of the better selling generic material, then we're likely not looking at them having much room in the release schedule for wiggle. I mean, as is, in 4 years, we've had a total of 13 Eberron books (heh, too bad Stormreach got printed, it could have been 12 Eberron books + RoE for the missing 13th). Thats just over 3 books per year for Eberron, on average. From where I'm sitting, WotC is backing themselves into a corner a bit with the whole "1 setting per year, every year". Assuming the three Faerun/Eberron books sell through the roof, does WotC even have the capacity to print extra setting books? They won't be postponing/canceling their more lucrative generic line books, and it would be another public relations nightmare to promise a new setting every year and then decide "Oh, we changed our minds". Honestly, I don't think WotC would have even let a hint of this past the NDAs if they didn't have tons of market research saying they would make the most money this way. And it dovetails into the whole "points of light" thing they've been pushing. Give just enough to get started, and back off. Rather ceases to be a point of light if it starts getting full release schedules and a dozen books, after all. Nah, more I think about this, the more it makes sense from WotC's perspective. The setting books are hot sellers, while the rest of them tend to just sort of coast by. Which if we look at the current idea, it maximizes the best sellers and cuts out the weak sellers entirely. Financially sound decision, especially since the only people it will tick off are us grognards that are used to having lots of books. They've already made it quite clear that we're not the main target audience of 4e, and that they apparently expect to bring in a newer, younger crowd anyway, so again, it makes sense. Could we get chapter sized chunks of material in DDI? Sure, that would be rather expected, especially for the high price WotC has set (confirmed at $15 a month, scaling down to $10 a month if you buy a year at a time). But I for one do not plan on spending $120 a year for nothing but essentially one book's worth of Eberron chapters. Especially considering that I won't be able to use that material at the game table, its just not useful to me. So, all comes down to one simple pair of facts. 1) I don't think WotC would have let this kind of news out unless they were serious, and even if they did change their minds later, I don't think they could give any meaningful amount of support to small niche books without cutting into their profits. 2) If its not in a hardback book, its worthless. Same attitude I had about Dragon. I didn't pay a subscription fee for a bunch of useless crap hoping for that diamond in the ruff for Dragon when I would at least have had a hardcopy, and I'm not going to do it for DDI. If WotC won't support the material enough to print it in a form I can put on my shelf, I don't want it. Not enough to pay for it, at any rate. |
| skrap-san04-26-08, 12:51 AM | There is always the possibility that they will take their main line of splatt books in the same direction that they took MM3/4/5 with small columns and sidebars about how to stuff it into Eberron. It would require far less resources and would please the raving mad fanboys at least a little bit. |
| Edymnion04-26-08, 01:09 AM | There is always the possibility that they will take their main line of splatt books in the same direction that they took MM3/4/5 with small columns and sidebars about how to stuff it into Eberron. It would require far less resources and would please the raving mad fanboys at least a little bit.Yeah, we all know how successful that approach was this time around. On one hand, you had people complaining that too much space was being taken up with setting specific material in a generic book that could have been used for more monsters. Then you had the setting specific people complaining because whoever wrote the setting specific information rarely had any clue as to what they were talking about. |
| Hellcow04-26-08, 01:27 AM | From where I'm sitting, WotC is backing themselves into a corner a bit with the whole "1 setting per year, every year". Sure, and that's why I'm taking it with a very large grain of salt. I've worked for big companies before, and all it takes is one shift in management for the previous boss's big plan to get thrown in the bin. WotC works far in advance, but it's not like they're writing the 2010 books today. So for now, I'm playing the part of a 12th-level Optimist (I was 13th level... damn vampire!). It would be another public relations nightmare to promise a new setting every year and then decide "Oh, we changed our minds". Eh, maybe. The only reason for them to change their mind would be if people were clamoring fiercely for more of Eberron and FR and it seemed clear that this called for additional books... or, for example, they hit 2010 and the setting released is a flop compared to the Eberron and FR books. So personally, I don't see it as a nightmare at all. If more people want the new setting-of-the-year than more old books, they've made the right decision with the current plan. If more people want more-of-the-old, then they will be making the larger market share happy if they reverse the policy. I really don't see the huge "I've been raising a hue and cry about Eberron but I'll never forgive you for changing your promised marketing scheme" group. Companies change business models all the time. If DDI tanks, I'm sure they'll come up with a new plan there quick enough. I don't see a switch in publishing plan based on the unanticipated popularity of an old setting generating the same uproar as, say, releasing a new edition. |
| Alter_Boy04-26-08, 01:51 AM | Dang, there's a lot of haterade going through this thread! Honestly people, how much more do you need from Eberron? Keith & co. have made some excellent books on Sharn, Stormreach, the Five Nations as a whole, Sarlona, Xen'drik, Argonessen (and dragons in general), Eberron's religions, the Last War, the Dragonmarked Houses, and 1001 places to adventure in. What else can they make into a hardcover? Mostly something entirely tangential to the setting, like Planes of Eberron, The Age of Galifar, the War of the Mark, and other stuff that only setting goobers like myself would buy. Monthly DDI articles like the Dragonshards in Dragon will do just fine for me. |
| Smug04-26-08, 01:55 AM | If WotC is fixed on the "Three books and absolutely no more!", then it seems to me that we may see them license properties after they've done their official three books, as they did with Dragonlance. So if this means that in 2010 we could see Keith Baker, Nic Logue, and Ari Marmell starting a company to produce their own Eberron books, more power to three and out. |
| Rauric04-26-08, 07:55 AM | "Mind you, the piece I'm working on now isn't Zilargo - but it's dealing with a topic that is similarly close to my heart and that I've wanted a chance to write about in more detail for some time). " Hmmm... the Planes perhaps? P.S. This thread doesn't even come close to the hatred found on the FR thread. Lots of anger there. |
| Nerdicus04-26-08, 12:09 PM | Does it not seem really really strange that a company that has been producing a few books per month is suddenly going to only produce 3 books per year!? Maybe this 3 book per setting per year is just the base amount they intend to produce, but they will also be doing extra material depending on the market and what the boards want....? I am more irked at the fact that we have to wait as long as we do for our beloved eberron books, more so then being irked at how many they are scheduled to do. But, as long as they release them all together I might be sated....might be! |
| Hellfyre04-26-08, 12:57 PM | As a huge fan of Eberron, I'm looking forward to having the 3 books being released (I just want them NOW!! ;) ). But as a fan of older settings, I'd like to see some of them return as well. I'm also a fan of d20 Modern ... and look at the support that gets ;) To be honest, I'd like to see the 3 CEB and then a horde of generic stuff that I could use for it (or FR, GH, DS, SF, etc). Of all the 3.x stuff I own beyond MMs, I got the most milage out of the ECS, the environment series, cityscape and Sharn. So long as I have the occasional article or description of a region, I'm good :) |
| Edymnion04-26-08, 02:35 PM | Honestly people, how much more do you need from Eberron?Well, lets put it this way. If there is nothing more we need, then there is no reason to continue supporting WotC or Eberron at all, since we already have everything we need. So, are you saying you support the idea of a complete abandonment of both WotC and Eberron, since there is nothing else you need or want in a book?Does it not seem really really strange that a company that has been producing a few books per month is suddenly going to only produce 3 books per year!?No, because thats not much less than what they're doing now. Remember, its 3 campaign setting specific books per year. Look at Eberron's release schedule, it averages out to only 3 books a year as well, so its not a stretch by any imagination. The main cutback is going to be that there's only one setting being worked on at a time, instead of two. They'll still be doing generic books like monster manuals and the like left and right. |
| Smug04-26-08, 03:01 PM | Edy, you yourself admit that it's a "Financially sound decision, especially since the only people it will tick off are us grognards that are used to having lots of books." As a subsidiary/slave of Hasbro, WotC has to do their best to make as much money as possible. So it's not a surprising move. However, if they are truly committed to the idea that "we will never do another book in line X, never ever ever", then the concept of licensing the property to a smaller company that is happy with the limited profits available from that niche becomes a reasonable option; after all, they're out of the Eberron business and it would still get them SOME money from the property. And we have the precedent of Dragonlance to show that it could happen. So the way I see it, either Eberron will be successful enough that they'll forget the three and out rule and make more in spite of it - or, if they're dead set on three and out, they may license it to a smaller company so they can at least continue to make some profit. Or perhaps the world is doomed and there will never be another Eberron book ever. We won't know for at least a year, so I'll hope for the best. |
| Rania04-26-08, 03:48 PM | I have two reactions to this: a) Someone's. Gonna. DIE!!. b) Ooh, are they gonna bring Planescape back? |
| Fabius Maximus04-26-08, 05:12 PM | I have two reactions to this: a) Someone's. Gonna. DIE!!. b) Ooh, are they gonna bring Planescape back? If you liked the old planar geography, you'll probably not be this enthusiastic when you'll read the new stuff. @Smug: I'm not sure it's a financially sound decision, at least where Eberron is concerned. A lot of 3.5 players will not change editions (out of various reasons). Since the only new informations in the 4e Eberron books will consist of how the new rules apply to the setting, said people won't need to buy the books. 4e Eberron will only be a success if it can draw enough new players to replace the old ones. |
| Hellcow04-26-08, 05:45 PM | Since the only new informations in the 4e Eberron books will consist of how the new rules apply to the setting... Not actually true, Fabius. It's certainly my goal to make the 4E books valuable to ALL players. We have space to play with, because all of the material in the original ECS that was aimed at players will now be in the Player's Guide. So there will be room to explore certain aspects of the world in greater detail and to present a few new ideas. Will you NEED to buy the 4E books if you plan to stay in 3.5? No... no more than you NEED to buy City of Stormreach. But we're doing all that we can to ensure that the book has more to offer than some stat block conversions you could easily do yourself - that it has value to both old and new players. |
| Edymnion04-26-08, 10:16 PM | Not actually true, Fabius. It's certainly my goal to make the 4E books valuable to ALL players. We have space to play with, because all of the material in the original ECS that was aimed at players will now be in the Player's Guide. So there will be room to explore certain aspects of the world in greater detail and to present a few new ideas.And can you say how much of that new material is going to be centered around teiflings and dragonborn? All that is going to be pretty much worthless for those of us who won't be "upgrading". |
| Hellcow04-27-08, 03:40 AM | And can you say how much of that new material is going to be centered around teiflings and dragonborn? Obviously, part of the new material will be dedicated to incorporating the new races (including Eladrin as well). If I had to estimate, I'd say maybe 3-5% all told, if that. Consider how much material in the current ECS is devoted to races; it's not as if the dragonborn are somehow going to get more attention than the warforged. Beyond that, I'm actually quite pleased with the role of the new races in the setting (and am in fact playing a dragonborn in the Eberron campaign I'm in). You know I dislike subraces and races that I feel exist just for the purpose of character optimization. I feel that the new races have roles that give them deep and interesting story hooks to explore - they feel like logical parts of the world, not clumsily forced in like, say, chaos gnomes in the PGtE. Further, I feel that they've been added in such a way that it doesn't dramatically change the overall flavor of the setting itself... so I'll say now that you WON'T see Zilargo suddenly turn into a nation of Tieflings. A key point here is that I also feel that we didn't do a good enough job with the OTHER Eberron races in the original ECS. How many people didn't have a clue what kalashtar were about until RoE came out? How many people still can't come up with a strong shifter idea? This is where I see tremendous opportunity with these books. There's many places where in hindsight it would have been great if we'd gone into more detail here, put thing X in a place that was clearly for DMs only, and so on. How do you actually use the Dreaming Dark or the Lords of Dust? What's the relationship, once and for all, between the Blood of Vol and Emerald Claw? What is the actual role of dragonshards in the economy? What are some of the key cultural differences between the Five Nations, and some of the lingering effects of the Last War? What about a deeper look at some of the power groups in Droaam? What is the deal with the population density of the Five Nations? Bear in mind that the book isn't written, let alone edited, so I can't promise that all of these things will be in it - but they are certainly the KIND of things I expect to see. As someone who has no interest in 4E, has been playing Eberron for a long time, who has all of the 3E Eberron books and feels that you DO understand all these issues, and has no interest in things like the new races, you may feel that this book doesn't offer you anything. And beyond that bit devoted to the new races, there's going to be material dealing with the new mechanics, like rituals. As I said in my previous message, you do not need to buy this book if you plan to play 3E Eberron, any more than you NEED to buy Dragons of Eberron if you don't plan to run a campaign involving dragons. However, just as DoE does reveal more about the history of the world, the nature of the Prophecy, and what's going on in Argonessen, the book will have things to offer experienced players who choose to pick it up. I'm not getting a nickel every time someone buys the book. I don't get beans for recommending it, and let's face it, it's not even going to be out for a year. But working on it now, I'm very excited about the project and believe that it will be an excellent thing; I just wish that I could have had the same insights when working on the ORIGINAL ECS. There's no question: a lot of the material with will overlap with the ECS. The point is that we aren't simply cutting and pasting material from the ECS; we're going back and saying "Knowing all that we know now, what can we do better?" I'm excited to have a second chance, and if these do end up being the last Eberron print books, I'm going to do everything I possibly can to make them the best books I've worked on. Perhaps I won't be able to do enough to make it a worthwhile purchase for you. But I'm going to try. |
| Rauric04-27-08, 10:20 AM | I figured you would add Eladrin in as a new races and not do the FR thing of pasting them over the "gold" elves. Why not make them what elves became after the giants kidnapped them from Thelanis. Or you could make them what elves became after escaping Xebdrick and adapting to their new home. I may go with the first option though for my game. |
| Scipion Emilien04-27-08, 02:21 PM | Does it not seem really really strange that a company that has been producing a few books per month is suddenly going to only produce 3 books per year!? Maybe this 3 book per setting per year is just the base amount they intend to produce, but they will also be doing extra material depending on the market and what the boards want....? I am more irked at the fact that we have to wait as long as we do for our beloved eberron books, more so then being irked at how many they are scheduled to do. But, as long as they release them all together I might be sated....might be! My theory on their new marketing strategy: And from what I understand from the "3 books and its done" format, WoTC instead of releasing two or 3 book a month, want to concentrate the buying of book on one book by month and thus on generic books. So instead of having a book on religion for 2 campaign setting and one generic, we only get the one generic (in I hope a more flexible format). And since most people buy one book by month, they will probably sell as much as in 3.5 with less design cost. |
| Ogiwan04-27-08, 04:21 PM | So, the bulk of development will shift to D&D Insider, which I get for $10 bucks a month, or roughly half-to-a-third of what a book costs. Ok. I'm also assuming that Insider will be providing me with multiple updates per month, on various topics. Now, considering how much material in the books that I get that I actually don't have much use for, well, I think I might actually be coming out ahead. I mean, seriously, think about it. When a new book comes out, what do you immediately go to first? For me, it's feats and Prestige Classes. Those are the bulk of what I use and pay attention to; spells and new items are usually kinda left by the wayside. Now, to Keith (or anyone else who can answer): How often will D&D Insider have updates? Furthermore, how many of them will be competent updates? Let us hypothesize. Let us assume that in a month, a half-dozen good updates (or, if you will, 3 good, 2 so-so, and a bad) will be issued for Eberron. 'Cause Eberron rules. That month would cost me 10 bucks. A book would cost me 25-35 bucks, and probably have about the same usefulness, would it not? Concerning competent updates, I would like to point to another of my hobbies, Warhammer 40,000, produced by the wonderful, if somewhat inept, folks at Games Workshop. There was a time when seemingly every month, new army lists were released. The problem with this was that the bulk of them were unbalanced, and balance is VERY important in a competitive game. This succession of unbalance was one of the first chinks in my faith of GWs ability. The result now is a very low interest in getting anything new from them until they stop sucking, which means less money for them. Thing is, frankly I don't think they'd be able to find their asses with both hands and a gay guy, so I probably won't be spending any money on 40k stuff for a while. Now, to bring my rambling post to a close: If the setting are only given two main books, but are supported constantly by high-quality material from D&D Insider, then I think I will be highly enthusiastic about Wizard's products, which means I will continue to have a subscription to D&D Insider, and may even buy setting books for stuff I ordinarily wouldn't play. Like the Realms. Never know, they might change it from being a bloated, rotting corpse of a setting. |
| Edymnion04-27-08, 04:42 PM | I mean, seriously, think about it. When a new book comes out, what do you immediately go to first? For me, it's feats and Prestige Classes. Non-mechanical character development options for me. Honestly, feats and spells are some of the *LAST* things I look at in a D&D book. But, I'm not your typical player. I've been doing this for a long time, and I find inspirational bits that let me kick off entire big ideas on my own to be *FAR* more valuable than some feat filler. I mean, if I want a mechanic, I been doing 3e since literally the day it came out, I can make my own feats and spells and classes, thats not hard. I think it was Five Nations that first had Fort Bones (the Karnnathi French Foreign Legion outpost) and the Bone Knight. The character idea I got from those two put together (which is nothing but a Rogue/Fighter) is far more important to me than the Bone Knight PrC itself. |
| Hellcow04-27-08, 05:44 PM | Now, to Keith (or anyone else who can answer): How often will D&D Insider have updates? Furthermore, how many of them will be competent updates? Beats me. I'm not trying to be some kind of cheerleader, or promise people that everything will be OK. The only clues I have as to what's going to be in D&D Insider are the articles that I myself am writing. And as I said before, the article I'm working on now is not only larger than anything I've done for WotC's website, it's larger than anything I've done for Paizo. But at the moment, I don't know if you'll see an article like that every week, every month, or every year. Because of the three and out plan, I hope that DDI will live up to its potential, because if they do hold to three and out it's the only channel left for official Eberron support. But at this point, all I know is the the full DDI will offer more than the free DDI did; aside from my own work, I have no way to know what's being developed or how competent the work will be. So my advice is to give it time. Either they'll make it worth the $10, or they won't, and it will fail. Personally, I hope it will succeed, because I want to have the opportunity to cover some of the many Eberron subjects left in the dark. But only time will tell. |
| Alter_Boy04-27-08, 09:46 PM | Well, lets put it this way. If there is nothing more we need, then there is no reason to continue supporting WotC or Eberron at all, since we already have everything we need. So, are you saying you support the idea of a complete abandonment of both WotC and Eberron, since there is nothing else you need or want in a book? If you feel WotC's only worth to your RPGing is campaign fluff, then I must humbly distance myself from you. |
| Edymnion04-27-08, 10:15 PM | If you feel WotC's only worth to your RPGing is campaign fluff, then I must humbly distance myself from you.Thats fine. The best Eberron books in the line are books like Five Nations, Faiths of Eberron, and Dragonmarked, because they focus on setting development and not just throwing mindless crunch into the mix. Its one of the reasons I like Mutants & Masterminds 2e. All of the crunch is in the main book. All of the other books (like Freedom City, which is sort of like the Sharn: City of Towers book) are just page after page of descriptions, fluff, and ways to make new things out of the old rules. Even the book with new powers isn't actually new, it just shows you how to recombine the powers in the base book in new ways you may not have thought of. Magic of Eberron was useful for a couple feats, thats about it. Even then, it wasn't so much the feats themselves that were useful, but the ideas behind those feats. Heck, most of the use I got out of MoE centered around Improved Homonculus as I mixed and matched things to create new themed homonculi (like an Iron Defender with Flight and a Flaming bite, instant dragon homonculus). I hadn't thought of doing it that way. |
| Phaseroth04-28-08, 02:36 AM | How many people didn't have a clue what kalashtar were about until RoE came out? How many people still can't come up with a strong shifter idea? I never had any trouble figuring out kalashtar. To be honest, though, I never got an opportunity to play one, either, since my DM didn't run Eberron games, and in the games I briefly DMed in Eberron nobody played a kalashtar, and the games didn't continue long enough for me to introduce a kalashtar NPC. Shifters, though ... I hope my issue with them is addressed in 4E. Specifically, that whole thing with X number of "shifter feats" increasing the number of shifts per day by Y and number of rounds per shift by Z ... I just thought it was insanely confusing and difficult to keep track of. Of course, I haven't heard if feats even exist in 4E, so this may be a moot point. As to DDI, I have a couple concerns. The first is related to the fact that I don't have a gaming group right now, but I still buy the books. Why do I keep buying them? 'Cuz I like to read them. Even if I'm not active in the game, I just really enjoy reading them and having this world unfold in my imagination. I'm also one of those people that plans to write a novel, any day now :rolleyes: and I look at these books as source material. That said, I spend enough time sitting in front of my computer staring at the screen as it is. When I'm off work and don't have any other plans, I sit at my computer reading message boards or writing or playing games or what have you. When I finally get tired enough to go to bed, that's when I like to crawl under the covers, turn on my reading lamp, and crack open a book. And sometimes, I like to sit in the park and read a book. I can't do either of these things with online material, and I'm not going to print the stuff out to read in bed or in the park. The printing issue is my other concern. Should I find myself in a gaming group once more and wanting to use this material at the game table, it will have to be printed out. I assume/hope WotC will make a printable format available. If they do make a printable format available, for God's sake I hope they're smart enough to format it as just text and whatever images/tables are necessary, without the fancy colored borders that the current book pages have! My reasoning here is the same as the reasoning of the Web browser programmers who eventually wised up and included an option in the print dialogs to not print a Web page's colored background/background images. If I have to completely drain my printer's ink cartridges to print the material ... there's the cost of a hardcover supplement right there. |
| Scipion Emilien04-28-08, 10:50 AM | As to DDI, I have a couple concerns. The first is related to the fact that I don't have a gaming group right now, but I still buy the books. Why do I keep buying them? 'Cuz I like to read them. Even if I'm not active in the game, I just really enjoy reading them and having this world unfold in my imagination. I'm also one of those people that plans to write a novel, any day now :rolleyes: and I look at these books as source material. That said, I spend enough time sitting in front of my computer staring at the screen as it is. When I'm off work and don't have any other plans, I sit at my computer reading message boards or writing or playing games or what have you. When I finally get tired enough to go to bed, that's when I like to crawl under the covers, turn on my reading lamp, and crack open a book. And sometimes, I like to sit in the park and read a book. I can't do either of these things with online material, and I'm not going to print the stuff out to read in bed or in the park. Quote for true, the thing that irrit me the most from the 3 books it s done format and the DDI is that I prefer to have a hardcopy when I have long read to do rather than reading online. |
| DragoonDarkfire04-28-08, 01:00 PM | So wait a second here... this could just be me but this seems to be the problem. Eberron is only going to get a CERTAIN SOURCE MATERIAL and that material won't be expanded upon or altered in any fasion. My response? Same crap, different package. Don't believe me? OH where do I begin? First of all we know WoTC hasn't always hired Keith or many other writers to expand on Eberron. There are also a few books that have, by many people here mind you, claim to have bad fluff that should be ignored in the Eberron cannon (races of Eberron comes to mind) BUT WAIT. You CAN'T ignore those books because they're apart of the Eberron Cannon! Oh wait. Rule 0 is your ace in the hole once again. Just scrap whatever you like and kick it out the door. Now this isn't to say Eberron is full of BAD flavor books. It actually has some nice flavor like Dragons, Sarlona and such. But really my feeling about those books are... is it really worth it? I mean let's compare this to the OTHER extreem, that Eberron's timeline would advance ala'FR. People were against this, why? Because they didn't want the cannon to change. They wanted their OWN cannon to change by their players. Which is a nice ideal to be sure. But let's think here. You want books where the flavor of the campaign is expanded upon but timeline isn't affected in anyway? You want everything told to you in a series of books that give you every single detail about a race/NPC/Organization or such but you don't want anything to change that you personally don't like so you just ret-con out whatever doesn't suit you? Hello! This is what we've been doing for years people! We get 3 books and then we expand on them how we like as DM's. This way we aren't wineing about whether or not suppliment X is cannon or not to the setting all because the author behind it had a completely different idea of Eberron than you/we do. Oh but I'm rambling. Lemme offer some pecimism to go with the crowd... well I don't like that certain topic I REALLY WOULD LIKE SOME INFO ON aren't going to be mentioned. Planes, for example, I'm gonna miss. |
| Edymnion04-28-08, 01:03 PM | We get 3 books and then we expand on them how we like as DM's. This way we aren't wineing about whether or not suppliment X is cannon or not to the setting all because the author behind it had a completely different idea of Eberron than you/we do.Isn't that rather like curing the disease by killing the patient? Sure, there's no more debate on the quality of the books, primarily because there aren't any more books to debate on. |
| Rauric04-28-08, 04:35 PM | I have enjoyed most of EBs fluff except maybe Magic of EB. I based whole adventures off of just one sentence from many of those books. |
| SkyOdin04-29-08, 10:51 PM | I for one actually like the idea of a campaign setting being released every year. If just one of these settings ends up being as good as Eberron, I will be a happy D&D fan. Personally, I am reading the "3 books a year" statement to just mean that WotC is not going to guarantee support of a setting past those three books. By not becoming trapped in the mindset of having to give ongoing support for every setting, the designers free themselves up to create more settings, and have the freedom to give the settings support on the basis of the individual setting's merits. As Keith Baker said, I doubt that WotC will completely abandon support for a setting after only three books. If a setting is successful, it will likely receive support in the form of new books, DDI material, and so on. Settings that flop will probably be left with only their first three books. Settings might also be licensed out to other companies, as someone else said earlier in the thread. So I think it is far too early to be predicting the death of Eberron. |
| DragoonDarkfire04-30-08, 10:04 AM | Isn't that rather like curing the disease by killing the patient? Sure, there's no more debate on the quality of the books, primarily because there aren't any more books to debate on. My argument wasn't so much on debate of quality of books. More like we won't get pointless or bad expanditure of "cannon". Ironically it's almost like actually advancing the timeline when put into perspective. My only real question is, actually: if DM's don't have a problem ADVANCING Eberron's cannon through a timeline then why don't people have problems EXPANDING on the cannon through other source material. If, for example, 4ed releases a book with a new class, feat, spell or artifact (or maybe even an adventure model) then that DM has the freedome to add said material to Eberron however he likes. Once again this seems to be the "feeding information to our players" against "letting DM's do as they wish" debate. My other question would be: Why is it this means Eberron's dead? The books are still there and you can still suggest them to people. To me, anyway, they're no more "dead" then a series of books that's ended. Sure your story doesn't continue but that doesn't mean people can't still enjoy it. |
| Rania04-30-08, 11:50 AM | If you liked the old planar geography, you'll probably not be this enthusiastic when you'll read the new stuff.I've seen their new cosmology; it looks interesting, and makes more sense for a regular game. But what I like about Planescape (I've read the sourcebooks; never played it, it was before my time) was how you could go from one completely different setting to another; say, the Plane of Fire -> Sigil -> Celestia -> Sigil -> Gehenna -> Sigil. The idea of the Great Wheel may be silly, but it has an inherent variety of "worlds" in it. |
| Amaril04-30-08, 01:10 PM | Isn't that rather like curing the disease by killing the patient? Sure, there's no more debate on the quality of the books, primarily because there aren't any more books to debate on. Now we get to debate about the quality of articles, a scenario with which I have no problem. Honestly, while I have all of the books, I'm frustrated that I can't run a search through them and have a list of search results for every instance of a word or phrase. Electronic copies give me that option. |
| McEwans04-30-08, 03:49 PM | I think keith may have hit it on the head on page one. We need to put our money where our mouths are, if the three books are a major seller people will smell money and produce more but if we don't bother then from Wizards point of view why should they bother to make more because it will seem that no-one is interested. |
| Ashlock04-30-08, 04:51 PM | There appears to be some clarification on the "3 and out" policy here, from Bill Slavicsek's newest Ampersand article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080430&authentic=true Honestly, I do like the notion that they'll keep developing more settings in the future. Don't like what's in 2011? Skip that year, then check out what comes out in 2012.... :P |
| curtis_ownby05-01-08, 01:49 AM | I plan on getting the three core for 4.0 the day they come out, then read through the PH and the DMG. I will then compare it to the 3.5 PH, PH2, DMG, and DMG2 and find a way to convert my 3.5 Eberron books to 4.0. I think that since I have at least 90% of the Eberron books, it would be worth the truble to write my self a convertion guide. WotC way not be making one but that does not mean we can't make them for our selves. As far as IDD goes if I hear enough about how good it is I will most likely try it out. But for me to keep paying out $15.00 mounthly it would have to blow me away, since I would have to hand write the stuff I wish to use to take it to my games. Plus I think a lot of DMs will not let players use the stuff from IDD, since I my self have ran across many DMs that will not let you use a lot of the D&D books. As for the only 3 books per a setting goes I will be able to look at more sittings and you can always mix and mach sitting if like. Plus the way I under stand it a lot of the things I like about Eberron will just be in other books. For example air ships instead of writing a book on how air ships work in eberron they will just make a book on how air ships would work in game and you will be able to put it into any setting you like. It is possible I am giving WotC to much credit, but I will look at a few of the books before I make up my mind. Here is hoping they can do 4.0 right. |
| Fabius Maximus05-01-08, 08:58 AM | I've seen their new cosmology; it looks interesting, and makes more sense for a regular game. But what I like about Planescape (I've read the sourcebooks; never played it, it was before my time) was how you could go from one completely different setting to another; say, the Plane of Fire -> Sigil -> Celestia -> Sigil -> Gehenna -> Sigil. The idea of the Great Wheel may be silly, but it has an inherent variety of "worlds" in it. Well, the Great Wheel was only a thought model of how the planes worked. It's still viable, as is the Great Tree in FR. If have a problem with the Astral Sea, though. It's described as if the planes are "drifting" thourgh it, which means there will be a random element in there that is a huge retcon. |
| Edymnion05-01-08, 11:33 AM | There appears to be some clarification on the "3 and out" policy here, from Bill Slavicsek's newest Ampersand article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080430&authentic=trueWow, yeah, I'm officially considering Eberron to be dead to me now. 4e is taking the position of "Well, there will only be two specific books, but everything will be Eberron, and Eberron will be everything!" Bull :censored:ing :censored:. One of the biggest reasons I like Eberron is because it specifically is *NOT* generic D&D. But, this goes along with what they're doing with Gleemax too. They seem to be actively trying to homogonize everything, so that they can administer everything with the same wave of a hand. They're missing out on the simple fact that communities like these form because, as a whole, it's members don't *WANT* to be part of a generic community. The ones that do actually go out and participate in the generic community. I honestly don't see this attitude as being a "fix" for anything. Any DM that wouldn't allow Faerun material in his Eberron game before *STILL* won't allow it now, he'll just have a shorter list of banned books for his game. Ugh, somebody stop the lightning rail, I wanna get off. |
| Ashlock05-01-08, 12:43 PM | I think that's just marketspeak, Edymnion. The way they need to pitch it. But I don't really think it's generic D&D is Eberron, Eberron is generic D&D. I think they're just trying to encourage easier adaptability, whether it's effective or not. And they want consumers to buy all products. Of course that's the stance they want to take. Let's judge it when we see it. Not so far in advance. |
| Amaril05-01-08, 12:53 PM | I think that's just marketspeak, Edymnion. The way they need to pitch it. But I don't really think it's generic D&D is Eberron, Eberron is generic D&D. I think they're just trying to encourage easier adaptability, whether it's effective or not. And they want consumers to buy all products. Of course that's the stance they want to take. Let's judge it when we see it. Not so far in advance. Exactly. While Eberron had its unique feats, was there any real reason why some of those feats couldn't have been generic D&D feats? The same could be said for PrCs. The converse is true, too. Some of the general PrCs would have made great Eberron specific PrCs. The point is, why segregate the two so much. If the only difference is a handful of feats that are absolutely specific to Eberron, those will be fine for the Player's Guide and any subsequent products or articles. |
| Ashlock05-01-08, 01:13 PM | I've heard from many DMs who grabbed warforged and put them in their non-Eberron campaigns. I think all this new talk is just WotC more officially acknowledging that tendency in their consumers (for sales purposes, of course). Maybe this just means the Eberron sourcebooks will have a few sidebars to talk about how to adapt an Eberron element outside of Eberron. Or maybe it'll take some other form. But I expect it to mean the same thing. |
| Hellcow05-02-08, 04:25 PM | One of the biggest reasons I like Eberron is because it specifically is *NOT* generic D&D. But what exactly is it that you think is going to change? The cultures of the world aren't changing. Elves are still Aereni and Tairnadal. Drow are still Sulatar and Children of Vulkoor, mysterious denizens of distant Xen'drik. Dragonmark houses still wield vast ecnomic power based on their marks and the tools they have created to take advantage of those marks. The warforged are the children of House Cannith and the legacy of the Last War. The Orcs remain the first druids of Khorvaire and its Gatekeepers against the daelkyr. Even looking to the eladrin or dragonborn, our approach wasn't to just toss them in using the generic backstory from the PHB, but rather to consider what unique role they would play in Eberron - the exact same level of thought we put into elves and gnomes in first developing the world. Now, some may jump on this point and say "That's precisely what I'm talking about! You're adding eladrin and dragonborn to Eberron - clearly kowtowing to 4E." We are adding the new races presented in the PHB to Eberron. Because one of the core principles of Eberron has always been that the elements from the CORE BOOKS should have a clear and easy place in the world. The 4E PHB is a core book for 4E, and it includes these races - therefore 4E Eberron needs to provide a place for them. We have not sacrificed anything about the world in the process. We have not thrown away the gnomes in order to give the tieflings a nation. Instead, we have done exactly what Eberron was designed to be able to do - looked at the setting and found an interesting place where these races could be added WITHOUT shattering what's gone before. No sacrifices were made, because none needed to be made. Eberron already had a good place for all of these races. Frankly, I don't LIKE Eladrin as a race, any more than I've traditionally liked elves or drow. And yet I LOVE the story we have for the eladrin in Eberron, and it's interesting enough that I'd consider playing an eladrin character. And I AM playing a dragonborn, in order to explore their story and role in the world. So we aren't just throwing away all the core principles of the world in order to squeeze in these new things. We're building upon what's there, not making terrible sacrifices. And if you deeply hate tieflings, it would be as easy for you to leave them out of your 4E Eberron campaign as it would be to leave changelings or kalashtar out of your 3.5 Eberron campaign. You'll miss out on a few interesting stories, you'll probably leave a few organizations out of your game, but the world will hardly fall apart without them. So warforged are also in the Monster Manual. Elves were always in the PHB, and yet the elves of Eberron are different than their counterparts in other settings; likewise, the warforged of Eberron will be different from the default warforged of the Monster Manual, who obviously have no tie to House Cannith or the shadow of the Last War hanging over them. So WotC wants people to be able to use the artificer in a FR if they choose - or to use the swordmage from the FR book in Eberron if they choose. How is this a new thing? Was there ever a rule saying you COULDN'T use artificers in other settings? On the contrary, the rule was "There's a place for everything in Eberron." Sure, some things are harder to place than others, but the setting was designed to be inclusive. This isn't a change to EBERRON; it's saying that they want this principle to be true in other settings. If you want to use warforged in FR, you should be able to find a way to do so. But NONE of this has any impact on the core flavor of Eberron itself. If it did, it wouldn't BE a setting, it would be a rules supplement. I find the whole "the sky is falling" mentality tiresome. I saw the exact same sort of thing time and again before Eberron came out - "It's the stupidest idea ever! It's all about robots and dinosaurs! It's going to destroy D&D!" Now we see that Eberron didn't destroy D&D, so now it's 4E that's going to destroy D&D... or destroy Eberron. I'm working on 4E Eberron right now. It's still Eberron. If anything, it's MORE Eberron than 3.5 Eberron was, because the combat mechanics are better suited to pulp action, the skill challenge system and removal of things like detect evil are a boon for noir and mystery adventures, and the shift away from Vancian magic supports the wide magic world. Yes, WotC wants you to be able to use any sort of mechanical element from Eberron in any other campaign setting - but that doesn't mean that we're dumbing down Eberron in any way to allow this. Again, Eberron was ALWAYS designed to be flexible; we don't NEED to change anything to accomodate this philosophy. |
| Alter_Boy05-02-08, 07:33 PM | They seem to be actively trying to homogonize everything, so that they can administer everything with the same wave of a hand. They're missing out on the simple fact that communities like these form because, as a whole, it's members don't *WANT* to be part of a generic community. The ones that do actually go out and participate in the generic community. Okay, now you're starting to sound like a grognard. Most people play D&D to have fun, not to socially isolate themselves. I get my kicks from Eberron, but my enjoyment for it doesn't include stomping on other campaigns. The campaign-specific boards here are meant to concentrate talk on the settings, not to make us feel special. |
| Joni-san05-04-08, 10:18 AM | I AM Just the thing I needed to start a certain thread :3 |
| Kalanth05-04-08, 12:55 PM | Now, I didn't read the entire thread, but did anyone notice Ampersands line here?: If a product idea comes along later that makes sense, we'll do it... To me it sounds like the majority of the splat books will include details on how to incorperate that book into the campaign. But that does not mean that we have seen the last book providing deatils on the inner workings of the world. People are reading to much into a simple comment and screaming that the sky is falling. Got an idea, instead of buying all the milk and toilet paper in the store cause the weather man said snow, how about we wait for futher details? |
| DragonReader05-05-08, 01:35 PM | One thing to keep in mind is that they will be releasing books. I had thought that the idea was to keep these generic enought to be used in multiple settings. Perhaps DDI will publish conversion-type articles (i.e., how to use book X in setting Y). Not optimal perhaps, but if we truly love Eberron it at least gives us something to work with. Plus, it is possible that the Eberron community will create it's own conversions and materials (like Dragonlance fans did with the Dragonlance Nexus). But I think like many others have said, it is not time to panic. DDI may address many of these concerns and if we all go out there and support 4E Eberron then who is to say that WOTC may not decide an additional source book or 2 might be worth it. |
| Elrodian05-05-08, 04:23 PM | so this is my first D&D change so what is the differents between them THis makes be hate and love that i only have the novels and what i have goten form the web beacues i can not get my head around what is realing going on but it is nices up not get aside becaues i do not know what is real worng i will try to read all you guys post agine |
| Elrodian05-05-08, 04:41 PM | But what exactly is it that you think is going to change? The cultures of the world aren't changing. Elves are still Aereni and Tairnadal. Drow are still Sulatar and Children of Vulkoor, mysterious denizens of distant Xen'drik. Dragonmark houses still wield vast ecnomic power based on their marks and the tools they have created to take advantage of those marks. The warforged are the children of House Cannith and the legacy of the Last War. The Orcs remain the first druids of Khorvaire and its Gatekeepers against the daelkyr. Even looking to the eladrin or dragonborn, our approach wasn't to just toss them in using the generic backstory from the PHB, but rather to consider what unique role they would play in Eberron - the exact same level of thought we put into elves and gnomes in first developing the world. [sblock=Regarding the new PHB races...]. ummmm Eladrins how are they going to fit in |
| Ogiwan05-05-08, 07:43 PM | ummmm Eladrins how are they going to fit in I'm going to take a shot in the dark, but I'd have to say that His Infernal Bovinity cannot reveal that yet due to a Non-Disclosure Agreement. So, we'll have to wait. Got an idea, instead of buying all the milk and toilet paper in the store cause the weather man said snow, how about we wait for futher details? Amen. |
| Edymnion05-05-08, 09:43 PM | Got an idea, instead of buying all the milk and toilet paper in the store cause the weather man said snow, how about we wait for futher details?Ever hear the phrase "Hope for the best, plan for the worst"? Or, to extend your metaphor, let me toss in some real life experience. In 1993, the east coast of America was hit with a major snowstorm, the Blizzard of '93. In my city, Chattanooga, we're so far south that we get maybe one day a year with an inch of snow. Many people heard the weatherman's prediction for a lot of snow and dismissed it as silly. In a city that shuts down when the ground turns white, three feet of snow fell literally overnight. I was trapped in my house for 7 days without electricity before the snow melted enough for me to even make it out of my driveway. Luckily, my family was one of the ones that took the warning seriously, and stocked up. We had food, supplies, and a wood burning stove that let us ride it out. What happens to people that adopt a wait and see attitude when heavy snow is predicted and nothing happens? They've wasted no time, no energy, and are not any better off than anyone else because of it. What happens to the wait and see people when the storm does hit? They freeze to death in the cold. Hope for the best. Maybe WotC will reverse everything it's said up to this date and 4e will be the shining example of all that is good in this world. Plan for the worst. Maybe WotC won't reverse everything it's said, and 4e will be just as crappy as I expect. If 4e, and 4e Eberron is just awesome, of course we'll all be right there playing it with the rest of you. If WotC completely ruins the setting and runs D&D into the ground in a Loraine Williams inspired nosedive, thats fine too. I can stick with 3e, or I can port Eberron over to other systems (like Mutants & Masterminds 2e). My brand loyalty to the D&D name is pretty much dead at this point. So, in the end, it doesn't matter to me one little bit what WotC does with the setting. If its good, I'll use it. If its not, and I'm not expecting it to be, thats equally fine. My game will go on. |
| Kalanth05-05-08, 10:35 PM | Ever hear the phrase "Hope for the best, plan for the worst"? Or, to extend your metaphor, let me toss in some real life experience. You're cute! You make me wana pinch your rosy little cheeks and gobble you right up! You took the example to mean wait until the snow is falling before making preparations, when instead it is more like watching the news carefully to see what changes may come about. Then again, two people can read the same story and interpret it differently, so your definition is as good as mine. I understand that you don't like the announcement of the rules, and the changes to D&D itself, but I don't see what’s going to change in terms of Eberron. Things like the Eladrin have always been a part of the world. Take DDO for example, which I doubt many on these forums play (aside from myself,) where they recently incorporated Eladrin into the game as part of an invasion from Shavarath. Sure, not what I am expecting for the final release of 4e Eberron, but it's an example that they are there already. And what was that comment in the books? If it has a place in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron. I know you are smart enough to know that you can give or take what changes you want to the world. But you are being stubborn, as most people are when they get older. Change scares us for a reason, and it is not because the proposed change is good or bad, but because it is change. Different is always bad because it is not what we know. When 3rd ed was coming out I remember going to a friend with a copy of Dragon magazine and complaining to no end how D&D was becoming exactly like Final Fantasy. "Look at this horrible feet! Whirlwind attack? Make an action and hit everyone around you? They are ruining this game!?" Yep, I was throwing the oars out before the boat came in because I could not stand what I was seeing. WoTC is doing 10x the job of releasing 4th ed than they did with 3rd and 3.5. They learned that what people need is to see what will be, and to be able to subject input into it. Eberron fans kicked and screamed the loudest, from what I can see, and so Eberron will see the fewest changes. That is a good thing. I can't tell you to rest easy, and that 4e will rock your socks off (though I enjoyed the times I play tested it.) I won't tell you to be quiet, sit in the corner with your 3.5 books and play by yourself either. Instead, I can only tell you a piece of advice that the stubborn will ignore. That is to give it a fair and just chance, and not judge the game before it even gets placed on a shelf. That is not fair to WoTC, Eberron, Keith Baker, or, more importantly, yourself. P.S. – To Keith Baker, I loved the Litany of the Dead story in D&D Online, and think you should translate that into a module for either WoTC or download somewhere. Great story idea! |
| ChaoticGood05-06-08, 12:26 AM | Things like the Eladrin have always been a part of the world. Take DDO for example, which I doubt many on these forums play (aside from myself,) where they recently incorporated Eladrin into the game as part of an invasion from Shavarath. Sure, not what I am expecting for the final release of 4e Eberron, but it's an example that they are there already. I think it does bear pointing out that these are most likely 3.5 Eladrin, and that 4e Eladrin are a different thing entirely. That's not really here nor there, but I'm a picky poster. ;) |
| Hellcow05-06-08, 02:12 AM | [EDIT] Changed my mind - I don't want to get caught up in debate. I will simply point out that one of the major reasons there's not going to be a timeline adjustment in 4E Eberron is because WotC listened to the fans. Beyond that, the people working on the Campaign Book include myself and James Wyatt - without whom there wouldn't be an Eberron in the first place. If WotC really wanted to ignore the players and destroy Eberron, you'd have a big timeline adjustment, no gnomes in Zilargo, and I wouldn't be involved. There's no way for me to truly reassure people. I myself had grave doubts about 4E (let alone 4E Eberron) until I actually played it - not simply read the rules, but played it. So I'm not going to argue about it. You'll like it, or you won't. But I will say again: one of the major reasons that you're not seeing a timeline adjustment in 4E Eberron is because WotC listened to you. As for the Eladrin, Ogiwan is correct. I expect that DDI will talk about the role of the new PHB races in Eberron before the campaign book comes out, but it's really up to them to make that decision. |
| Kalanth05-06-08, 08:09 AM | I think it does bear pointing out that these are most likely 3.5 Eladrin, and that 4e Eladrin are a different thing entirely. That's not really here nor there, but I'm a picky poster. ;) Sorry, I just figured that to be assumed knowledge. :) [EDIT] Changed my mind - I don't want to get caught up in debate. That is likely the best course of action. Wait until the NDA starts to loosen its grip (usually near release time) and start to promote 4e Eberron with what you know. Now, to early and likely a bad idea to debate for fear of spilling some beans in an attempt to defend your side. |
| Edymnion05-06-08, 12:11 PM | I myself had grave doubts about 4E (let alone 4E Eberron) until I actually played it - not simply read the rules, but played it.So you can appreciate the boat the rest of us are in, and why some of us are getting uneasy when we lean over and see "H.M.S. Tita...." written on the side. ;) |
| Amaril05-06-08, 12:18 PM | So you can appreciate the boat the rest of us are in, and why some of us are getting uneasy when we lean over and see "H.M.S. Tita...." written on the side. ;)But for all we know, it might actually say "H.M.S Titanium Fusion Power Mach 4 Turbo!" Wait, I'm not sure that's much better. I mean, Gillette has me convinced that I have sharper blades and more opportunities to cut myself with each stroke of the razor. :( |
| Hellcow05-06-08, 12:36 PM | So you can appreciate the boat the rest of us are in, and why some of us are getting uneasy when we lean over and see "H.M.S. Tita...." written on the side. ;) Certainly. But as someone who had those misgivings and who has now been playing for months, I can say that not only am I having more fun with D&D than I have in years, but that I feel that 4E is a better system for modelling many of the fundamental elements of Eberron. It does a great job with pulpy, swashbuckling action, the skill challenge system and general shift away from things like detect evil are great for noir and mystery stories, and rituals and powers create a stronger and more logical foundation for the wide-magic society of Khorvaire than Vancian magic. So I certainly understand your doubts, and who knows if you'll like 4E as much as I do. But as the person who's been on the boat for months and has had plenty of time to see that it's "H.M.S Titanium Fusion Power Mach 4 Turbo", I can still get tired of hearing all the people saying "Does that say 'Titanic'?" Beyond that, there are the points I've already made. When it comes to Eberron, WotC isn't going to destroy the setting. If they didn't care about the opinions of the players, they wouldn't have listened to all the people asking them not to advance the timeline. Yes, we're adding in things like the Dragonborn and Tieflings - but not in a clumsy, PGtE sidebar sort of way. The setting was always designed to be able to incorporate additional elements, and this was a case of James, myself, and the other designers looking at the setting, finding a good opening, and coming up with a way to make these PHB races as unique to Eberron as the Aereni elves and the Zil gnomes. So I certainly understand the reasons people are upset or afraid. Just as I can look back at the pre-release of Eberron and understand why some people DID think it was all dinosaurs and trains. And all I can do is say that I think 4E is a great system for Eberron, that I'm having more fun with D&D than I have in years, and that I'm glad to be working with James again and proud of the book we're producing together (along with others - I don't know if the full author list has been announced). |
| Elrodian05-06-08, 04:34 PM | srry for being a noob in this thread but where are u guys see all this |
| Ogiwan05-07-08, 09:29 AM | srry for being a noob in this thread but where are u guys see all this Good lord, I just can't keep my mouth shut. Please, for the love of all that's holy (or unholy, if that's your thing), PLEASE at least make an effort to use proper grammar, capitalization, spelling, and punctuation. It not only makes you sound older and more competent, but it also makes your post easier to read. In answer to what I believe your question was, from press releases, mostly. Hellcow is the creator of Eberron, and thus is "inside" Wizards. Incidentally: But as someone who had those misgivings and who has now been playing for months, I can say that not only am I having more fun with D&D than I have in years, but that I feel that 4E is a better system for modelling many of the fundamental elements of Eberron. It does a great job with pulpy, swashbuckling action, the skill challenge system and general shift away from things like detect evil are great for noir and mystery stories, and rituals and powers create a stronger and more logical foundation for the wide-magic society of Khorvaire than Vancian magic. This bit right here fills me with confidence about 4e. If His Infernal Bovinity says that 4e is a better fit for Eberron, then I am confident it will be awesome. This, in my mind, only leaves the question of if Wizards will properly support it. If they do, well, I'll have a lot of stuff on my hard drive starting with EBERRON. If they don't, well, go form your own company, Keith, and i'll have your back. I'm either in CT or TN, though, so i'm a bit far away if you need any hot Ghorad'din action. |
| Amaril05-07-08, 09:47 AM | ...and rituals and powers create a stronger and more logical foundation for the wide-magic society of Khorvaire than Vancian magic.Not to be argumentative, but isn't that what minor schemas were for? |
| Hellcow05-07-08, 02:05 PM | Not to be argumentative, but isn't that what minor schemas were for? Nope. Because a minor schema can still only be used once per day. I really can't go into it until rituals have been described in detail. But what rituals really strengthen is the idea of the magewright - a mystical professional whose job is to perform a particular magical effect over and over. Someone who makes a living crafting arcane locks - which is hard when you do it once and you're done for the day. |
| Amaril05-07-08, 02:23 PM | Nope. Because a minor schema can still only be used once per day. I really can't go into it until rituals have been described in detail. But what rituals really strengthen is the idea of the magewright - a mystical professional whose job is to perform a particular magical effect over and over. Someone who makes a living crafting arcane locks - which is hard when you do it once and you're done for the day. I guess it depends on what we're talking about. Arcane locks, and everbright lanterns really only require a wand. Magical devices such as a conductor stone are a completely different thing. Now if crafting magic items is greatly improved by removing 1/day minimum, then we'd really see some progress in how the game rules can accommodate the economics of Khorvaire's technology. |
| Rania05-07-08, 02:56 PM | Good lord, I just can't keep my mouth shut. Please, for the love of all that's holy (or unholy, if that's your thing), PLEASE at least make an effort to use proper grammar, capitalization, spelling, and punctuation. It not only makes you sound older and more competent, but it also makes your post easier to read.That's going in my sig. |
| Hellcow05-07-08, 03:11 PM | I guess it depends on what we're talking about. Arcane locks, and everbright lanterns really only require a wand. Although another thing 4E drops is the use of wands as items-that-hold-up-to-fifty-charges-of-a-spell, which I'm just as happy about. So you don't do your job by making a wand and then just using the wand until it burns out and making another one. Again, what rituals really support is the role of the magewright - the mystical professional who makes a living performing a particular ritual. |
| Amaril05-07-08, 03:17 PM | Although another thing 4E drops is the use of wands as items-that-hold-up-to-fifty-charges-of-a-spell, which I'm just as happy about. So you don't do your job by making a wand and then just using the wand until it burns out and making another one. Again, what rituals really support is the role of the magewright - the mystical professional who makes a living performing a particular ritual. Hmm. Out of curiosity, could the same be said for Adepts if such a class still exists? |
| Hellcow05-07-08, 03:59 PM | Hmm. Out of curiosity, could the same be said for Adepts if such a class still exists? It depends what you want out of the adept. If what you're looking for is a noncombat caster who can reliably produce a particular magical effect, then yes, it does. If you want the combat aspects of the adept - cause fear, scorching ray, wall of fire and the like, then no, it doesn't. However, there's other ways to address this. One of the things it handles very well is House Jorasco - Eberron's secular healers. But I've really said all I can at this point, if not more. |
| Kalanth05-07-08, 10:40 PM | But there are the other blanks that I am more interested in, such as undead creation for the nation of Kharn. I always felt the 3.5 Kharn undead were a bit limp wristed and not much more impressive than a standard zombie of skeleton. And raising the dead is something I have heard nothing about in regards to the core rules, much less enhancing them. |
| Adamaro2305-08-08, 03:54 AM | I was almost looking forward to 4E, not to play it, but for new eberron material... So does anyone else think we'll ever get to see things such as Planes of Eberron, Dhakanni Empires, Strange Nations, etc... as something other than a web enhancement or article? I also don't agree with non-hardcover books that I can't place on my shelf adjacent to my other Eberron books. Although I would'nt mind "planes of eberron" in any form, just to get it cleared up. In my opinion It'd be great if WotC "gave" the Eberron setting to a different 3rd party publisher who would continue to expand and finish things left unquestioned. Sorta how Ravenloft was handed over, but is still played alot as though it were D&D, not S&S. But that's just my opinion, albeit unlikely that will ever happen. |
| Ogiwan05-08-08, 09:36 AM | That's going in my sig. W00t. Concerning the Dhakaanis, Don Bassingwaithe is coming out with a new trilogy featuring that (and Geth! I'm excited.) |
| Hellcow05-08-08, 01:18 PM | So does anyone else think we'll ever get to see things such as Planes of Eberron, etc... as something other than a web enhancement or article? Honestly? No. As much as I'm interested in the subject, I think it's a perfect example of a book they don't want to do. It's a book that has virtually no application to anyone who doesn't play Eberron, and isn't even something every Eberron player will want to have. It's a perfect subject for DDI; there's a significant audience with a strong interest in the subject. But a far, far smaller audience than that interested in a book like Complete Divine. While Bill has said that you may see additional setting specific books "if it makes sense", I think "if it makes sense" can be taken to mean "if there's a book that clearly has strong mass audience appeal" - and that's not Planes of Eberron. The only way I see such a book coming out is if it's licensed to a third party publisher. |
| kelvinaw27305-09-08, 11:20 AM | A thought has occurred to me on the subject of how WotC are releasing their books for 4e ... They want to sell more core books that everyone will buy. They don't want to sell campaign specific books as a main line because these simply don't sell as well. A lot of material in the Eberron books (and in other settings) focusses on how the system works in Eberron - how new character classes fit into the existing patterns, etc. What if this information is being released with the core material for all settings rather than setting specific material? Plus side: We still get the material. Minus side: We have to get it for all the campaign settings we DON'T play as well as the few that we do. ... Just a thought ... |
| Amaril05-09-08, 11:22 AM | Minus side: We have to get it for all the campaign settings we DON'T play as well as the few that we do. Why is this a minus? |
| The Ubbergeek05-09-08, 12:13 PM | A thought has occurred to me on the subject of how WotC are releasing their books for 4e ... They want to sell more core books that everyone will buy. They don't want to sell campaign specific books as a main line because these simply don't sell as well. A lot of material in the Eberron books (and in other settings) focusses on how the system works in Eberron - how new character classes fit into the existing patterns, etc. What if this information is being released with the core material for all settings rather than setting specific material? Plus side: We still get the material. Minus side: We have to get it for all the campaign settings we DON'T play as well as the few that we do. ... Just a thought ... Note that there is notable (if not huge) part of the market constitued of peoples who buy books of other settings (and games!) to copy/rip/get inspiration from things for their own games. Heck, it is argued more peoples buy GURPS books for such ideas than to PLAY GURPS. ;) Perhaps WOTC noticed it. |
| Rauric05-09-08, 10:58 PM | I just saw a post saying that the guy will buy the FR book just for the Swordmage class. So there ya go. Maybe he will get a little hooked with FRs style. Maybe it will happen when the EB book comes out. |
| Ogiwan05-10-08, 12:23 AM | Pfft. Call me a bigot, but anything with "Forgotten Realms" on it would have to have some really sweet crunch to make me even start to think about getting it. |
| Edymnion05-10-08, 11:11 PM | Pfft. Call me a bigot, but anything with "Forgotten Realms" on it would have to have some really sweet crunch to make me even start to think about getting it.Make Jotunbrud a fighter bonus feat, and then make it for Warforged only. Ooh yeah baby, large and in charge! |
| Rauric05-10-08, 11:41 PM | The point is that with a core logo and campaign title they hope to snag people who would be scared off by the EB or FR logos/borders. |