+5 Use Magic Device Item [Archive] - Wizards Community

+5 Use Magic Device Item [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fastjack
11-29-05, 11:13 AM One of my players is *****ing me off to crete an item that gives + 5 Use Magic Device.
He argued that the market price should be arround 1.000 because a +10 on hide costs 2000.

I agree with him that theres logic on that. But, hide (imho) looks much less powerfull than UMD on a eberron campaing. With a +5 on UMD an artifice (thats the case) could make much more magic itens much more powerfull without the problem of losing GP's / Time.

Personally, i wanted to charge 12.000 Gps for +5. Based on nothing but common sense.

I wanted to know your opinion. If "my sense" can be considered common and if you guys have any option to solve this problem.

Thank you :)
jonthegm
11-29-05, 11:23 AM One of my players is *****ing me off to crete an item that gives + 5 Use Magic Device.
He argued that the market price should be arround 1.000 because a +10 on hide costs 2000.

I agree with him that theres logic on that. But, hide (imho) looks much less powerfull than UMD on a eberron campaing. With a +5 on UMD an artifice (thats the case) could make much more magic itens much more powerfull without the problem of losing GP's / Time.

Personally, i wanted to charge 12.000 Gps for +5. Based on nothing but common sense.

I wanted to know your opinion. If "my sense" can be considered common and if you guys have any option to solve this problem.

Thank you :)

Well, by the RAW, it's +5 skill... so that's 5*5*100 = 2500gp base cost. It'll cost him 1250g and 100xp to create this item.

If you look at the Cloak of Elvenkind, you'll see it has a +5 Hide bonus, and costs the same.

At level 3, that's not an insignificant amount of change to be throwing around... Why do your players have that much money?

Beyond level 3... you'll have more trouble from the +5 Armor...
Dougbert
11-29-05, 11:24 AM I think the suggested price for a skill enhancement item is bonus^2 * 100gp, so this would be 2,500 gp for a +5 competence bonus. Then add on any multipliers for body slots, etc that you see fit.

However be very careful about letting this kind of item in for artificers. It isn't a problem if you keep an eye on the situation, but many a DM disallows UMD boosting items because of the potential for abuse.
Wolfwood2
11-29-05, 12:59 PM However be very careful about letting this kind of item in for artificers. It isn't a problem if you keep an eye on the situation, but many a DM disallows UMD boosting items because of the potential for abuse.

Why, what's the potential for abuse?

It seems to me that the major benefit will be that:

1. The artificer is less likely to blow money and xp trying and failing to create an item.

2. The artificer is less likely to blow a valuable combat round trying and failing to get a magic item to work.

Considering that in both of those cases, other spellcasting classes can get automatic success when trying to do the same thing, I fail to see what's gamebreaking.
AvonRekaes
11-29-05, 01:06 PM If you want to make it more expensive than 2,500 gp, say that it wouldn't make sense to have "gloves" of UMD, or "eyeglasses of UMD" since there are so many ways to use the skill. So, you have to make a handheld multitool, which doesn't take up a slot. Therefore, it costs twice as much. 5,000 gp.
Chiyo
11-29-05, 01:52 PM It should be 2500 gp based on DMG guidelines p 282? (or about). The progression in magic items is also NEVER linear for +anything items. They all go with square of +bonus. So +1 armor is 1x1x1000, +2 armor is 2x2x1000, +3 armor is 3x3x1000 for a progression 1000, 4000, 9000, 16000, 25000, etc ... A +10 competence item should be 10x10x100 = 10000 gp, not 2000 gp. If he found a specific item at that price, fine, that's 5 times cheaper than it should but look at other +5 skill items, they're all 2500 gp (boots of elvenkind, eyes of the eagle, cloak of elvenkind, etc).

As far as slot where it belongs, it's kinda hard to tell. Vest/shirt sounds like a possibility since it's supposed to be the right place for class ability enhancement and UMD is pretty central skill for artificers. Otherwise, I disagree about disallowing gloves of UMD. It's kinda hard to think of use/activation of magic items that doesn't require handling said device. You hold a scroll, wand or staff in your hand usually. To craft magic items without using your hands would seem pretty difficult. Goggles are a bit more iffy but gloves should be ok. Besides, it'll prevent player from putting something else (dex bonus say) on gloves (or it'll cost extra for multiple abilities). If you make it a wrong slot item, it'll cost extra but in the end the extra cost is not gonna matter much.

Plus if you're gonna craft a custom no-slot item, handheld is IMO a poor choice. Pick cloak pin, vest button, earring, shield strap or anything fluffy like that. You pay double normal cost either way so why burden yourself with having it take the place of your weapon, wand or shield. It'd come back to haunt you when you want to dual wield wands while keeping that +UMD bonus or require to use standard action ot sheathe something you had in your hand. Bad decision IMO for the artificer.

As far as abuse, it's not a big deal really, except maybe at very low levels (basically at 3rd, it's a nice boost, by lvl 6, it's much less big a deal). Wand activation is fixed at 20 so that becomes trivial very fast regardless. For wand creation, except the level 1 spell wands, the others cost so much that artificer will get retries, will get to apply skill enhancement (at level 6, can be maintained 8 hours), can use action points, etc. Between all those, failure in wand creation is probably gonna be pretty limited regardless of +5 UMD item. For scroll creation, it'll have more of an impact but still, you get minimum 2 attempts and results of failure are not quite as dramatic in costs. Not worth frustrating a player over it.

Personally, I like some kind of gnomish goggles with scope and funny lights. It just has more flavor than a no-slot item. But that's just what I made my UMD item to be.
Dougbert
11-29-05, 02:29 PM When I spoke of keeping an eye on things to avoid abuse I really meant don't give players too many resources too early. If an artificer has more cash than usual for his level and has a high UMD skill it's very likely he'll try to make magic items that are well above what a character of his level should probably have.

I don't see anything wrong with a UMD booster myself, but with many other parts of the game it can get out of hand if the DM doesn't control his game.
a_psh
11-29-05, 02:48 PM Why, what's the potential for abuse?Spell storing item (ECS pg 115): An artificer with early access to a significant UMD boost can get good mid-level divine or arcane spells at significantly lower levels than any other class.
jonthegm
11-29-05, 03:02 PM Spell storing item (ECS pg 115): An artificer with early access to a significant UMD boost can get good mid-level divine or arcane spells at significantly lower levels than any other class.

Sorry, don't see the potential for abuse.

3d level Artie
6 ranks in UMD
18 cha, +4
Skill Focus, +3
Magical Aptitude +2
Gloves of +5 UMD (Nukes the craft pool, with 40xp extra)
That's a +20. It's a +15 without the gloves.

Now let's look at SSI.
It requires a 23 for 1st level spells, 26 for 2nd level spells, 29 for 3d level spells, and 32 for 4th level spells. That's a 90%, 75%, 60%, or 45% chance
with the gloves, and a 65%, 50%, 35%, or 20% without them. It's hardly game-breaking... ESPECIALLY if you're making the artificer pay 3, 6, 9, 12xp PER USE. Remember... creating this item has robbed him of his entire craft pool.

/EDIT/ PLUS I missed a key phrase: "As long as its spell level is no more than one half of your artificer level." So... yeah... at level 3, you can only do level 1 spells. In fact, you have to wait until level 8 for level 4 spells (which wizzies and clerics get at 7th)

At level 8, the artie will probably have a 20 cha, and 11 skill points... that's +5 +11 +3 +2 +5 = +26/+21, giving him a (100%, 100%, 90%, 75%)/(95%, 80%, 65%, 50%)... Should an 8th level character be fumbling with 1st level spells? Is that heroic?

Point out the game-breaker, please... I just don't see it.
DarkWarriorKarg
11-29-05, 05:09 PM Correction to the above... the L3 artie can only emulate level 3 spells.
jonthegm
11-29-05, 05:15 PM Correction to the above... the L3 artie can only emulate level 3 spells.
What?

The text says "You can imbue any spell of 4th level or lower into the item, as long as its spell level is no greater than one-half your artificer level.

So, at 1st level, the artificer can only imbue 0 level spells. At 2nd level, he may imbue 1st level spells, at 4th level, he may imbue 2nd level spells, at 6th level, he may imbue 3rd level spells, and at 8th level, he may imbue 4th level spells.
a_psh
11-29-05, 07:49 PM Good catch, jonthegm! I tip my hat to you.
Edymnion
11-29-05, 10:42 PM I allow UMD boosters, and I have a Belt of Use Magic Device +5 on my artificer.

Its not game breaking in any way, no more than a Rogue with a Cloak of Elvenkind +5 is gamebreaking.

It lets the artificer activate wands in combat more easily, thats really about the only real in-game effect it has. Helps make magical items, yeah, but thats really not a problem. With a minimum of 2 checks for any item they make, and the use of action points, the character *IS* going to succeed.

As for Spell Storing Infusion, it still doesn't let you store a spell more than half your level. Even the Sorcerer is going to have spells faster than the Artificer using this route. But, even with the boost, it isn't a sure thing.

My Artificer is currently 7th level. She's got something like +17 to UMD, counting her +5 UMD Belt. Last time she tried to store something as simple as a Knock spell to open a chest, she flubbed it horribly the first time, then flubbed it AGAIN the second time, and just barely managed to squeek by with an Action Point.

And out of combat, UMD for items and wands is pointless. Yeah, you can't Take 10 or Take 20 for those wands, but you can sit there and spend 20 rounds out of combat to activate that Wand of Cure X Wounds. You just sit there and roll and roll and roll until you get it. Long as nobody is dying (and when you can spend an AP to stabilize), you've got plenty of time to roll a natural 20 if you need it.

And even if the DM doesn't allow it, there are other UMD boosters in the DMG that you can get. What is it, Circlet of Persuasion that boosts your Charisma, and gives like a +3 to all charisma based checks, including UMD?

All the UMD booster does is make the Artificer more reliable, it doesn't actually increase their power much at all.
Tap Tap
11-29-05, 11:34 PM I prefer the Circlet of Persuasion on page 252 of the DMG. It grants a +3 competence bonus to ALL charisma-based checks for 4,500 gold pieces.
Crimsonsun
11-30-05, 08:20 AM Dana (see sig) has his custom made gloves (by himself of course) that is what I call Gloves of the Artificer (yea, i know, real original...) that are +5 to UMD and Magecraft once per day...

Nothing fancy, but a nice little set of gloves... He eventually wants to put the same enhancement on it that Gloves of Storing have...
DarkWarriorKarg
11-30-05, 08:57 AM What?

The text says "You can imbue any spell of 4th level or lower into the item, as long as its spell level is no greater than one-half your artificer level.

So, at 1st level, the artificer can only imbue 0 level spells. At 2nd level, he may imbue 1st level spells, at 4th level, he may imbue 2nd level spells, at 6th level, he may imbue 3rd level spells, and at 8th level, he may imbue 4th level spells.

Apologies. Misunderstanding. My mind was stuck on item creation.
ENHenry
12-02-05, 02:42 PM I'm going to play Devil's Advocate solely on the basis of personal experience. We had an Artificer in our last Eberron game with about a +25 by 10th level, thanks to an amulet I allowed him to create that boosted UMD by +10. At that point, he never bothered to roll UMD chances again. While it didn't break my game, it made him MUCH MUCH more powerful than he would have been, and probably the most powerful character in the game, unless I started cheating him of creation time, which I tried to use only sparingly.

Up to a +4 I suppose wouldn't be a problem, but +5 and over caused me some major headaches balancing challenges as DM. Even at level 9, he was able to hold his own against a War Troll (from Monster Manual 3) by himself for 4 rounds, to give you an idea.

Just be ver cautious about allowing anything in the +5 range and up on this skill, because it's not the same utility-wise as having, say, a +10 to jump.
jonthegm
12-02-05, 03:41 PM I'm going to play Devil's Advocate solely on the basis of personal experience. We had an Artificer in our last Eberron game with about a +25 by 10th level, thanks to an amulet I allowed him to create that boosted UMD by +10. At that point, he never bothered to roll UMD chances again. While it didn't break my game, it made him MUCH MUCH more powerful than he would have been, and probably the most powerful character in the game, unless I started cheating him of creation time, which I tried to use only sparingly.

Up to a +4 I suppose wouldn't be a problem, but +5 and over caused me some major headaches balancing challenges as DM. Even at level 9, he was able to hold his own against a War Troll (from Monster Manual 3) by himself for 4 rounds, to give you an idea.

Just be ver cautious about allowing anything in the +5 range and up on this skill, because it's not the same utility-wise as having, say, a +10 to jump.
Hey, did you not read my post where I outlined that a level 3 artificer is going to have (before magical items) a best-case +15 to their UMD check.

Using those same criteria (level 1: 18 cha, Magical Aptitude, Skill Focus), a 10th level character should have a +23 (level 10: 20cha, MA, SF)to their check WITHOUT magic items.

At that point, what's +5?

It's 2500 gold and 100XP for a +5 in one skill that can be taken away by any sneakthief in the country.

So in your example, your Artie has a +10 magic item, giving him a +15 without the item... so since he's maxing out his UMD skill like a good artificer, he's got a +2 after taking away his ranks in his skill... so... I infer that he's got a 14/15 Cha and no feats to help him out.
phillipjp
12-02-05, 05:21 PM I saw several mentions about magical gloves granting the +5 UMD.

According to the "body slot affinities" sidebar on DMG p288, wouldn't it be a better fit as a headband (mental improvement) than gloves (quickness)?

Just trying to reason it out...
Crimsonsun
12-02-05, 07:44 PM I saw several mentions about magical gloves granting the +5 UMD.

According to the "body slot affinities" sidebar on DMG p288, wouldn't it be a better fit as a headband (mental improvement) than gloves (quickness)?

Just trying to reason it out...

It could be both... When activating the item, most of the time you have to handle the damned thing! I'd allow gloves...
Edymnion
12-02-05, 09:01 PM I saw several mentions about magical gloves granting the +5 UMD.

According to the "body slot affinities" sidebar on DMG p288, wouldn't it be a better fit as a headband (mental improvement) than gloves (quickness)?

Just trying to reason it out...UMD booster doesn't actually fit under any of the catagories. Although, frankly, I always found the affinity slots to be pretty stupid in the first place...

As for the power boost, an Artificer will be getting most of his combat power by mid levels from wands, which means they only need to hit DC 20 with their check. Even with just a high Cha and maxxed out UMD, by lvl 10 they're going to be having +15-17 on their checks without any feats or items. All you need is +19 so you don't have to actually roll to activate a wand, and you're set. Everything else the Artificer does he can roll multiple times, which means he'll still get it activated anyway.
Chiyo
12-05-05, 01:49 PM Totally agree on Ed on his analysis of artificer power vs use of UMD item at the levels he mentioned.

At level 9, my artificer got 12 ranks in UMD, +4 CHA mod and can craft wands so gets +2 to activate them. Right there, it's +18 on the check to fire a wand. That's basically it. On 2 I succeed and since a natural 1 is always a failure on UMD, I don't need any +UMD item for using wands which is by then the artificer's mainstay.

Granted, the +UMD item helps at lower level but artificer is gonna use wands starting at 5th but especially at 6th when they can make them. Even at 6th, you're talking 9+4+2 = +15 to UMD without +UMD item. If you allow circumstance items (tools), it could even be higher and not present a very tough challenge for the artificer. If they get themselves a circlet of persuasion, the +3 pushes that 6th level artificer to +18 UMD and she's basically done with failures on anything but natural 1.

Btw, I see a lot of people not having their artificers roll their UMD when they have high bonuses. Re-read the UMD skill description, especially the retry section. A 1 is a failure always but not only that but it prevents activation of the device for 24 hours after that. So there should at least always be 5% chance of failing to activate a wand or scroll no matter how high the UMD and more interesting for the DM, that means no access to that wand for a whole 24 hours. With using about 10-15 activations per game session, I've seen that rule handicap my artificer a few times (and made me carry duplicate of my most used wands for when one becomes unoperative for 24 hours).

So there is decent comfort reason for artificer to make herself a +UMD item but in most cases at higher levels, it'll be overkill to go for something way more than +5 anyway and the benefits aren't out of line for other +skill items.
Deificus
12-05-05, 07:12 PM Re-read the UMD skill description, especially the retry section. A 1 is a failure always but not only that but it prevents activation of the device for 24 hours after that.

Chiyo,

Re-read the UMD Skill description. From the SRD:

Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can�t try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

Note the fact that it says, "if you ever roll a natural 1... AND YOU FAIL, then you can't..." A natural 1 is not an auto-fail. It says if you roll natural 1 AND fail.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fastjack 11-29-05, 11:13 AM	One of my players is *****ing me off to crete an item that gives + 5 Use Magic Device. He argued that the market price should be arround 1.000 because a +10 on hide costs 2000. I agree with him that theres logic on that. But, hide (imho) looks much less powerfull than UMD on a eberron campaing. With a +5 on UMD an artifice (thats the case) could make much more magic itens much more powerfull without the problem of losing GP's / Time. Personally, i wanted to charge 12.000 Gps for +5. Based on nothing but common sense. I wanted to know your opinion. If "my sense" can be considered common and if you guys have any option to solve this problem. Thank you :)
jonthegm 11-29-05, 11:23 AM	One of my players is ****ing me off to crete an item that gives + 5 Use Magic Device. He argued that the market price should be arround 1.000 because a +10 on hide costs 2000. I agree with him that theres logic on that. But, hide (imho) looks much less powerfull than UMD on a eberron campaing. With a +5 on UMD an artifice (thats the case) could make much more magic itens much more powerfull without the problem of losing GP's / Time. Personally, i wanted to charge 12.000 Gps for +5. Based on nothing but common sense. I wanted to know your opinion. If "my sense" can be considered common and if you guys have any option to solve this problem. Thank you :) Well, by the RAW, it's +5 skill... so that's 55*100 = 2500gp base cost. It'll cost him 1250g and 100xp to create this item. If you look at the Cloak of Elvenkind, you'll see it has a +5 Hide bonus, and costs the same. At level 3, that's not an insignificant amount of change to be throwing around... Why do your players have that much money? Beyond level 3... you'll have more trouble from the +5 Armor...
Dougbert 11-29-05, 11:24 AM	I think the suggested price for a skill enhancement item is bonus^2 * 100gp, so this would be 2,500 gp for a +5 competence bonus. Then add on any multipliers for body slots, etc that you see fit. However be very careful about letting this kind of item in for artificers. It isn't a problem if you keep an eye on the situation, but many a DM disallows UMD boosting items because of the potential for abuse.
Wolfwood2 11-29-05, 12:59 PM	However be very careful about letting this kind of item in for artificers. It isn't a problem if you keep an eye on the situation, but many a DM disallows UMD boosting items because of the potential for abuse. Why, what's the potential for abuse? It seems to me that the major benefit will be that: 1. The artificer is less likely to blow money and xp trying and failing to create an item. 2. The artificer is less likely to blow a valuable combat round trying and failing to get a magic item to work. Considering that in both of those cases, other spellcasting classes can get automatic success when trying to do the same thing, I fail to see what's gamebreaking.
AvonRekaes 11-29-05, 01:06 PM	If you want to make it more expensive than 2,500 gp, say that it wouldn't make sense to have "gloves" of UMD, or "eyeglasses of UMD" since there are so many ways to use the skill. So, you have to make a handheld multitool, which doesn't take up a slot. Therefore, it costs twice as much. 5,000 gp.
Chiyo 11-29-05, 01:52 PM	It should be 2500 gp based on DMG guidelines p 282? (or about). The progression in magic items is also NEVER linear for +anything items. They all go with square of +bonus. So +1 armor is 1x1x1000, +2 armor is 2x2x1000, +3 armor is 3x3x1000 for a progression 1000, 4000, 9000, 16000, 25000, etc ... A +10 competence item should be 10x10x100 = 10000 gp, not 2000 gp. If he found a specific item at that price, fine, that's 5 times cheaper than it should but look at other +5 skill items, they're all 2500 gp (boots of elvenkind, eyes of the eagle, cloak of elvenkind, etc). As far as slot where it belongs, it's kinda hard to tell. Vest/shirt sounds like a possibility since it's supposed to be the right place for class ability enhancement and UMD is pretty central skill for artificers. Otherwise, I disagree about disallowing gloves of UMD. It's kinda hard to think of use/activation of magic items that doesn't require handling said device. You hold a scroll, wand or staff in your hand usually. To craft magic items without using your hands would seem pretty difficult. Goggles are a bit more iffy but gloves should be ok. Besides, it'll prevent player from putting something else (dex bonus say) on gloves (or it'll cost extra for multiple abilities). If you make it a wrong slot item, it'll cost extra but in the end the extra cost is not gonna matter much. Plus if you're gonna craft a custom no-slot item, handheld is IMO a poor choice. Pick cloak pin, vest button, earring, shield strap or anything fluffy like that. You pay double normal cost either way so why burden yourself with having it take the place of your weapon, wand or shield. It'd come back to haunt you when you want to dual wield wands while keeping that +UMD bonus or require to use standard action ot sheathe something you had in your hand. Bad decision IMO for the artificer. As far as abuse, it's not a big deal really, except maybe at very low levels (basically at 3rd, it's a nice boost, by lvl 6, it's much less big a deal). Wand activation is fixed at 20 so that becomes trivial very fast regardless. For wand creation, except the level 1 spell wands, the others cost so much that artificer will get retries, will get to apply skill enhancement (at level 6, can be maintained 8 hours), can use action points, etc. Between all those, failure in wand creation is probably gonna be pretty limited regardless of +5 UMD item. For scroll creation, it'll have more of an impact but still, you get minimum 2 attempts and results of failure are not quite as dramatic in costs. Not worth frustrating a player over it. Personally, I like some kind of gnomish goggles with scope and funny lights. It just has more flavor than a no-slot item. But that's just what I made my UMD item to be.
Dougbert 11-29-05, 02:29 PM	When I spoke of keeping an eye on things to avoid abuse I really meant don't give players too many resources too early. If an artificer has more cash than usual for his level and has a high UMD skill it's very likely he'll try to make magic items that are well above what a character of his level should probably have. I don't see anything wrong with a UMD booster myself, but with many other parts of the game it can get out of hand if the DM doesn't control his game.
a_psh 11-29-05, 02:48 PM	Why, what's the potential for abuse?Spell storing item (ECS pg 115): An artificer with early access to a significant UMD boost can get good mid-level divine or arcane spells at significantly lower levels than any other class.
jonthegm 11-29-05, 03:02 PM	Spell storing item (ECS pg 115): An artificer with early access to a significant UMD boost can get good mid-level divine or arcane spells at significantly lower levels than any other class. Sorry, don't see the potential for abuse. 3d level Artie 6 ranks in UMD 18 cha, +4 Skill Focus, +3 Magical Aptitude +2 Gloves of +5 UMD (Nukes the craft pool, with 40xp extra) That's a +20. It's a +15 without the gloves. Now let's look at SSI. It requires a 23 for 1st level spells, 26 for 2nd level spells, 29 for 3d level spells, and 32 for 4th level spells. That's a 90%, 75%, 60%, or 45% chance with the gloves, and a 65%, 50%, 35%, or 20% without them. It's hardly game-breaking... ESPECIALLY if you're making the artificer pay 3, 6, 9, 12xp PER USE. Remember... creating this item has robbed him of his entire craft pool. /EDIT/ PLUS I missed a key phrase: "As long as its spell level is no more than one half of your artificer level." So... yeah... at level 3, you can only do level 1 spells. In fact, you have to wait until level 8 for level 4 spells (which wizzies and clerics get at 7th) At level 8, the artie will probably have a 20 cha, and 11 skill points... that's +5 +11 +3 +2 +5 = +26/+21, giving him a (100%, 100%, 90%, 75%)/(95%, 80%, 65%, 50%)... Should an 8th level character be fumbling with 1st level spells? Is that heroic? Point out the game-breaker, please... I just don't see it.
DarkWarriorKarg 11-29-05, 05:09 PM	Correction to the above... the L3 artie can only emulate level 3 spells.
jonthegm 11-29-05, 05:15 PM	Correction to the above... the L3 artie can only emulate level 3 spells. What? The text says "You can imbue any spell of 4th level or lower into the item, as long as its spell level is no greater than one-half your artificer level. So, at 1st level, the artificer can only imbue 0 level spells. At 2nd level, he may imbue 1st level spells, at 4th level, he may imbue 2nd level spells, at 6th level, he may imbue 3rd level spells, and at 8th level, he may imbue 4th level spells.
a_psh 11-29-05, 07:49 PM	Good catch, jonthegm! I tip my hat to you.
Edymnion 11-29-05, 10:42 PM	I allow UMD boosters, and I have a Belt of Use Magic Device +5 on my artificer. Its not game breaking in any way, no more than a Rogue with a Cloak of Elvenkind +5 is gamebreaking. It lets the artificer activate wands in combat more easily, thats really about the only real in-game effect it has. Helps make magical items, yeah, but thats really not a problem. With a minimum of 2 checks for any item they make, and the use of action points, the character IS going to succeed. As for Spell Storing Infusion, it still doesn't let you store a spell more than half your level. Even the Sorcerer is going to have spells faster than the Artificer using this route. But, even with the boost, it isn't a sure thing. My Artificer is currently 7th level. She's got something like +17 to UMD, counting her +5 UMD Belt. Last time she tried to store something as simple as a Knock spell to open a chest, she flubbed it horribly the first time, then flubbed it AGAIN the second time, and just barely managed to squeek by with an Action Point. And out of combat, UMD for items and wands is pointless. Yeah, you can't Take 10 or Take 20 for those wands, but you can sit there and spend 20 rounds out of combat to activate that Wand of Cure X Wounds. You just sit there and roll and roll and roll until you get it. Long as nobody is dying (and when you can spend an AP to stabilize), you've got plenty of time to roll a natural 20 if you need it. And even if the DM doesn't allow it, there are other UMD boosters in the DMG that you can get. What is it, Circlet of Persuasion that boosts your Charisma, and gives like a +3 to all charisma based checks, including UMD? All the UMD booster does is make the Artificer more reliable, it doesn't actually increase their power much at all.
Tap Tap 11-29-05, 11:34 PM	I prefer the Circlet of Persuasion on page 252 of the DMG. It grants a +3 competence bonus to ALL charisma-based checks for 4,500 gold pieces.
Crimsonsun 11-30-05, 08:20 AM	Dana (see sig) has his custom made gloves (by himself of course) that is what I call Gloves of the Artificer (yea, i know, real original...) that are +5 to UMD and Magecraft once per day... Nothing fancy, but a nice little set of gloves... He eventually wants to put the same enhancement on it that Gloves of Storing have...
DarkWarriorKarg 11-30-05, 08:57 AM	What? The text says "You can imbue any spell of 4th level or lower into the item, as long as its spell level is no greater than one-half your artificer level. So, at 1st level, the artificer can only imbue 0 level spells. At 2nd level, he may imbue 1st level spells, at 4th level, he may imbue 2nd level spells, at 6th level, he may imbue 3rd level spells, and at 8th level, he may imbue 4th level spells. Apologies. Misunderstanding. My mind was stuck on item creation.
ENHenry 12-02-05, 02:42 PM	I'm going to play Devil's Advocate solely on the basis of personal experience. We had an Artificer in our last Eberron game with about a +25 by 10th level, thanks to an amulet I allowed him to create that boosted UMD by +10. At that point, he never bothered to roll UMD chances again. While it didn't break my game, it made him MUCH MUCH more powerful than he would have been, and probably the most powerful character in the game, unless I started cheating him of creation time, which I tried to use only sparingly. Up to a +4 I suppose wouldn't be a problem, but +5 and over caused me some major headaches balancing challenges as DM. Even at level 9, he was able to hold his own against a War Troll (from Monster Manual 3) by himself for 4 rounds, to give you an idea. Just be ver cautious about allowing anything in the +5 range and up on this skill, because it's not the same utility-wise as having, say, a +10 to jump.
jonthegm 12-02-05, 03:41 PM	I'm going to play Devil's Advocate solely on the basis of personal experience. We had an Artificer in our last Eberron game with about a +25 by 10th level, thanks to an amulet I allowed him to create that boosted UMD by +10. At that point, he never bothered to roll UMD chances again. While it didn't break my game, it made him MUCH MUCH more powerful than he would have been, and probably the most powerful character in the game, unless I started cheating him of creation time, which I tried to use only sparingly. Up to a +4 I suppose wouldn't be a problem, but +5 and over caused me some major headaches balancing challenges as DM. Even at level 9, he was able to hold his own against a War Troll (from Monster Manual 3) by himself for 4 rounds, to give you an idea. Just be ver cautious about allowing anything in the +5 range and up on this skill, because it's not the same utility-wise as having, say, a +10 to jump. Hey, did you not read my post where I outlined that a level 3 artificer is going to have (before magical items) a best-case +15 to their UMD check. Using those same criteria (level 1: 18 cha, Magical Aptitude, Skill Focus), a 10th level character should have a +23 (level 10: 20cha, MA, SF)to their check WITHOUT magic items. At that point, what's +5? It's 2500 gold and 100XP for a +5 in one skill that can be taken away by any sneakthief in the country. So in your example, your Artie has a +10 magic item, giving him a +15 without the item... so since he's maxing out his UMD skill like a good artificer, he's got a +2 after taking away his ranks in his skill... so... I infer that he's got a 14/15 Cha and no feats to help him out.
phillipjp 12-02-05, 05:21 PM	I saw several mentions about magical gloves granting the +5 UMD. According to the "body slot affinities" sidebar on DMG p288, wouldn't it be a better fit as a headband (mental improvement) than gloves (quickness)? Just trying to reason it out...
Crimsonsun 12-02-05, 07:44 PM	I saw several mentions about magical gloves granting the +5 UMD. According to the "body slot affinities" sidebar on DMG p288, wouldn't it be a better fit as a headband (mental improvement) than gloves (quickness)? Just trying to reason it out... It could be both... When activating the item, most of the time you have to handle the damned thing! I'd allow gloves...
Edymnion 12-02-05, 09:01 PM	I saw several mentions about magical gloves granting the +5 UMD. According to the "body slot affinities" sidebar on DMG p288, wouldn't it be a better fit as a headband (mental improvement) than gloves (quickness)? Just trying to reason it out...UMD booster doesn't actually fit under any of the catagories. Although, frankly, I always found the affinity slots to be pretty stupid in the first place... As for the power boost, an Artificer will be getting most of his combat power by mid levels from wands, which means they only need to hit DC 20 with their check. Even with just a high Cha and maxxed out UMD, by lvl 10 they're going to be having +15-17 on their checks without any feats or items. All you need is +19 so you don't have to actually roll to activate a wand, and you're set. Everything else the Artificer does he can roll multiple times, which means he'll still get it activated anyway.
Chiyo 12-05-05, 01:49 PM	Totally agree on Ed on his analysis of artificer power vs use of UMD item at the levels he mentioned. At level 9, my artificer got 12 ranks in UMD, +4 CHA mod and can craft wands so gets +2 to activate them. Right there, it's +18 on the check to fire a wand. That's basically it. On 2 I succeed and since a natural 1 is always a failure on UMD, I don't need any +UMD item for using wands which is by then the artificer's mainstay. Granted, the +UMD item helps at lower level but artificer is gonna use wands starting at 5th but especially at 6th when they can make them. Even at 6th, you're talking 9+4+2 = +15 to UMD without +UMD item. If you allow circumstance items (tools), it could even be higher and not present a very tough challenge for the artificer. If they get themselves a circlet of persuasion, the +3 pushes that 6th level artificer to +18 UMD and she's basically done with failures on anything but natural 1. Btw, I see a lot of people not having their artificers roll their UMD when they have high bonuses. Re-read the UMD skill description, especially the retry section. A 1 is a failure always but not only that but it prevents activation of the device for 24 hours after that. So there should at least always be 5% chance of failing to activate a wand or scroll no matter how high the UMD and more interesting for the DM, that means no access to that wand for a whole 24 hours. With using about 10-15 activations per game session, I've seen that rule handicap my artificer a few times (and made me carry duplicate of my most used wands for when one becomes unoperative for 24 hours). So there is decent comfort reason for artificer to make herself a +UMD item but in most cases at higher levels, it'll be overkill to go for something way more than +5 anyway and the benefits aren't out of line for other +skill items.
Deificus 12-05-05, 07:12 PM	Re-read the UMD skill description, especially the retry section. A 1 is a failure always but not only that but it prevents activation of the device for 24 hours after that. Chiyo, Re-read the UMD Skill description. From the SRD: Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can�t try to activate that item again for 24 hours. Note the fact that it says, "if you ever roll a natural 1... AND YOU FAIL, then you can't..." A natural 1 is not an auto-fail. It says if you roll natural 1 AND fail.