Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Setherial 04-22-05, 07:37 AM	Hey guys in the thread Developing a Character within a game! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=416835) I came up with this silly example of a party that would be just doomed because they don't make sense. One of the example characters was a blind Archer. Now my facination with this idea is growing and I'm thinking it would be fun to play such a character but I need some input on balancing him so that his handicap is more a roleplaying thing then something that makes him less effective then the other players. I want to stress how because he can't see his other senses have improved making him a very valuable ally in certain situations. All ideas and comments on this are welcome. - the character can't take ranks in spot (obviously) but he is allowed to take twice the allowed amount of ranks in listen. - listen is always a class skill - To shoot a living or moving target within 30 feet the player is allowed to make a listen check against the move silent check of his enemy (modified by the DM given the situation). If he hears his target he can fire at it without penalty. This can also be used for melee attacks. - following the rules for flaws in Unearthed Arcana, the player's handicap is seen as a flaw for which he is allowed to take a free feat (this could be improved hearing allowing him a +4 on listen checks) Ok I think these ideas would be very acceptable as they are pretty mundane in nature and make sense. They all focus on his improved hearing to make up for his lack of sight. Any more ideas, things I can level out ? cheers SeTh
Setherial 04-22-05, 08:00 AM	what about a supernatural ability to detect danger, would be cool to have and make the character very special. Ofcourse since it's supernatural (or psychic) it might be concidered overpowered. One could instead of making this a feat for this character, make it a skill, something he gets better at over time as he puts skill points into it. A dangerous situation, an ambush or a trap might then require a sense danger roll against its difficulty.
Malicant 04-22-05, 08:13 AM	Make it like a trait. Disadvantage is obviously his blindness. He automatically fails spot checks. Don't modify the allowed max ranks for listen, it would be tampering with coremechanics, which is always a bad idea IMHO. As advantage give him Blindsense (range 30 feet, based on acute hearing), which would make listen checks to pinpoint targets in the effects area obsolete. Because he can't see the targets, they still get concealment (50% miss chance), hence you'll need Blind Fight. To improve his abilities, allow him to take Feats. First around level 6, which imroves Blindsense to 60 feet, second around level 9 (or 12, not sure), which grants him Blindsight with half his Blindsense range. Prerequisite should be Wis at least 13 or 15 to take this feats.
DarkWarriorKarg 04-22-05, 08:28 AM	Way back in 3.0 there was a blindsight feat (30', I think, Sword & Fist I believe) Requirements: Wis: 19, Blindfight I don't know if it's since been reprinted for 3.5.
Setherial 04-22-05, 08:32 AM	Make it like a trait. Disadvantage is obviously his blindness. He automatically fails spot checks. Don't modify the allowed max ranks for listen, it would be tampering with coremechanics, which is always a bad idea IMHO. As advantage give him Blindsense (range 30 feet, based on acute hearing), which would make listen checks to pinpoint targets in the effects area obsolete. Because he can't see the targets, they still get concealment (50% miss chance), hence you'll need Blind Fight. To improve his abilities, allow him to take Feats. First around level 6, which imroves Blindsense to 60 feet, second around level 9 (or 12, not sure), which grants him Blindsight with half his Blindsense range. Prerequisite should be Wis at least 13 or 15 to take this feats. sounds reasonable, would this blindsense also allow to sense danger. Him sensing an ambush where the attackers are completly hidden or invisible makes sense since he doesn't rely on sight. Detecting traps this way is too far fetched I guess.
Malicant 04-22-05, 08:48 AM	sounds reasonable, would this blindsense also allow to sense danger. Him sensing an ambush where the attackers are completly hidden or invisible makes sense since he doesn't rely on sight. As long as they are within range and the char has line of effect, he know where they are. It's not exactly sixth sense (wasn't there a feat with that name?) but he will notice an ambush much earlier than anyone else (short of an oracle, of course ;) ) Detecting traps this way is too far fetched I guess. I guess trap sense as a class feature would become useless, so I wouldn't recommend that kind of precognition. If you want to have the Sixth Sense-know-before-it-happens style, give the char a class that has uncanny dodge and trapsense. Or you could build an apropriate PrC.
Full Quiver 04-22-05, 08:52 AM	the Scent feat might add to the character also.
Conners_of_Sharptooth 04-22-05, 08:56 AM	Someone mentioned blindsight as a possible feat to take but it isn't that great for what you need it for. It allows you to detect invisible creature through hearing and vibrations within 5 feat. There is a creature ability called blindsight that certain creatures like grimlocks get enabling them to "see". I had considered making a blind character once and I asked the DM if I could take that ablity as a feat. He was cool with it. The creature ablity allows you ascertain things with 40 feet, anything else is considered totally concealed. Also, in one of R.A. Salvatore's books he had a blind ranger that knew where to shoot his bow because his owl animal companion flew towards his enemies and screeched, thus revealing their location. You could do something simular to this.
Setherial 04-22-05, 11:57 AM	the Scent feat might add to the character also. Unless you are an animal or monsterous human of some kind (or a shifter) I don't want scent as an option. Sure your scent might improve when you are blind but it will never I think become as sharp as that of lets say a dog. Also, in one of R.A. Salvatore's books he had a blind ranger that knew where to shoot his bow because his owl animal companion flew towards his enemies and screeched, thus revealing their location. You could do something simular to this. Very nice suggestion, I like it a lot because of it's simplicity. No magic involved no supernatural tricks just simple animal friendship, a well trained animal that functions as the hunters eyes. Perfect !! (ofcourse I would have to make it a hawk, way cooler then an owl :) If you want to have the Sixth Sense-know-before-it-happens style, give the char a class that has uncanny dodge and trapsense. Or you could build an apropriate PrC. thats exactly what I was aiming for. I have this image of a blind martial artist, the blind monk who can't see yet knows everything around him and can cut a falling hair in two with his katana. Ofcourse at first level this would be more like being able to step aside when a falling piano comes your way ;)
zerotkatama 04-22-05, 12:22 PM	The Zen Archery feat from Complete Warrior might be a good fit for this character. Wis instead of Dex to attack rolls.
ydirbut 04-22-05, 05:18 PM	If any of you have played planescape:torment, there;s a blind archer in that game.
stembolt 04-22-05, 08:40 PM	This must be my week for old subjects being brought up. My suggestion is, don’t actually play this character out of simple kindness to your DM and other players. The reason why is that a blind person experiences the world completely differently from the sighted. Sooner or later the blindness breaks down or the DM does. How does a dm describe a room? How do they describe a person? If you want to actually play this character I suggest something were you only see out of your familiars eyes. In dragon a while back there was an anti drow PrC that had blindsight. It was the equivalent of darkvision in that it was black and white and it reached only 60’ but you could not see beyond that, even in light. Something like that might be good, the flavor of blindness but at least you can see what you need to.
Edymnion 04-22-05, 11:21 PM	More important question that has to be answered. Why are they still blind? Remove Blindness is a low level spell, even for Eberron. Why has this adventurer with loads of cash to burn not simply gotten even an artificer or magewright whip up and use a scroll, or House Jorasco to simply take it away magically? As for the better senses, in game terms that simply means they put more ranks into things like Listen. It doesn't make you magically better, it just means that you spend more time learning to make up for your handicap. Aka, time you would normally have spent doing other things, like seeing things and making spot checks now goes to becoming a better listener. You don't hear better because you're blind, you hear better because you HAVE to get better at it to get by. A handicap is a handicap. You don't get better at something else because you are handicapped, you get better because you go out of your way to try and get around being handicapped.
Malicant 04-23-05, 09:04 AM	Although you are right, the topic was not 'what senses improve if I become blind', but instead ' how to make rules for char, that is blind and percives the world with sixth-sense-style abilities. Like Dare Devil e.g. (whom I don't like, by the way, that stupid *** :D )
Setherial 04-23-05, 10:14 AM	More important question that has to be answered. Why are they still blind? Remove Blindness is a low level spell, even for Eberron. Why has this adventurer with loads of cash to burn not simply gotten even an artificer or magewright whip up and use a scroll, or House Jorasco to simply take it away magically? Because he starts at level one and as most level one beginning adventurers he is poor and can't affort magic. He might get rich one day or he might never get there, adventuring is a dangerous thing, but until he makes a fortune and can have his sight restored he has to get by, learn how to cope. Also not all level one adventurers are 15 years old and have no life experience. It might just as well be that he is 40 or 50 until he really starts adventuring and before that he made a living as a hunter, making just enough money to survive. That means 40 years of living without sight. Besides an adventurer worth playing should be an exceptional individual, he should stand out, not because he is blind but because his handicap doens't stand in his way of becomming a famous hero.
Malicant 04-23-05, 11:28 AM	I smell style-of-game preferrence discussion! In the red corner: 'Why don't you play something common?' but still suggesting elven sorcerers and dwarven rangers instead of human commoners, which would be common, but hey, who am I to judge? In the blue corner: 'How exotic would you like to be?' planning to play a Tauric Illithid/Beholder/Half-Dragon/Lich, before beinig smacked by his GM really hard I want a good, unclean discussion! Get it on! :D
Edymnion 04-23-05, 02:15 PM	Because he starts at level one and as most level one beginning adventurers he is poor and can't affort magic. An Adept at any House Jorasco enclave can do it for you for 120 gold. Might not be able to afford that at lvl 1, but its easily affordable by lvl 2, especially considering it is a major dibilitating handicap. Being too poor to afford it works for lvl 1, but you seriously need to find a good reason why he can't get a very simple healing spell cast on him, even in Eberron, once he can afford it. I mean, he would be able to pay the 120 gold out of his loose pocket change before he could take even half the feats that would be required to make him playable. Now, I'm not saying its a bad idea to have a blind character. I'm just saying that you have to have a reason why he is blind that normal healing can't fix. Especially in Eberron, where magical fixes to everything under the sun is the norm, it just doesn't mesh that this character is afflicted by blindness, works his butt off just to get around his handicap, and yet for some reason is incapable of just walking around the corner and paying less to get his eyes fixed than he probably spent on his bow. Its a fun concept, but you have to do more than just say "Oh, he just spent too much time staring at the sun as a kid" to pull it off.
Setherial 04-23-05, 03:22 PM	Well, I can see your point and you are right ofcourse but this being high magic fantasy it is just as easy to come up with a reason he can't be cured as it is to say he should have been cured from the day his sight was taken. For instance : A great many years ago even before the reign of Galifar a warlord named Olagh ir'Darnenic was loosing the battle against his enemies. On the evening before what was expected to be his final defeat a woman approached Olagh, she stept forth from the shadows and offered the warlord a deal. She would provide him with the power of foresight with which he would be able to defeat his enemies, knowing their every move. If he took her offer she told him she would return on the night of his victory and ask of him a great sacrifice. He knowing the greatest sacrifice of all would befall him tomorrow if he did not do something soon, agreed to this bargain and recieved his gift of forsight. 2 Years later the Warlord ruled over all of Khorvaire, every battle he had fought from the night he had met the woman he had won. During these last years of war his wife had given birth to their son, heir to the throne of Khorvaire. Then at the night the war ended the woman stepped forth from the shadows once more, comming out of nowhere as she had done 2 years ago. She appeared in Olaghs bedroom and demanded her sacrifice. She demanded Olagh give her his son, for she could have no children of her own. He was to become her apprentice and was to go with her to live in the deep jungle now known as the shadow marches. Olagh bound by his word gave up his son that night but soon after, driven mad by grief gathered his forces to ride out and find the boy. Eventually, years later Olagh found the hag and his son she had raised as her own and took him back. He failed however to kill the Hag who escaped his forces and cursed his family for breaking their bargain. She did not only take away Olagh's foresight but his vision entirly, his sight, that of his son and that of every first born son his line would ever give birth to. And so goes the legend of King Olagh ir'Darnenic. Now our hero could be a descendant of this king Olagh, not knowing of his ancestor or his faith. He would know that children born blind in his family are commen but not know why, also non of his family members knows why those born blind of his kin can't be cured by magical means. Now this is a lot of history and finding out about his past and possibly find a cure would be an adventure on it's own (possibly involving the Daughters of Sora Kell).
Malicant 04-23-05, 03:35 PM	Sometimes background can be very simple. The Mournlands are my favorite wild card. He was there during the Mourning, got blinded and the strange magics twisted his senses. Sight cannot be restored, as if he never had eyes in the first place. But the change that made him blind also changed the way he percives his surroundings. If you need some ****ed-up magic explanation, than Eberron is just great. And it does not need to be much. If you want to have something like that and your GM does not disallow it, justification and background can be as easy as you see fit. All just a matter of taste.
Gurv 04-23-05, 03:40 PM	Now, I'm not saying its a bad idea to have a blind character. I'm just saying that you have to have a reason why he is blind that normal healing can't fix. The solution to this is quite simple. Remove blindness/deafness can not restore lost eyes. If some accident (or torture!) resulted in actual loss of the eyes, then it would take much greater magic to restore them. And high level magic is tough to get in Eberron, especially from those pesky clerics. I have a blind NPC, although he is a swordsman. Actually, he isn't blind and can see perfectly. But he has been mutated by a Daelkyr cult so that he has an uncontrollable petrification gaze attack. Anyone he sees is turned to stone. Obviously not something I would give to a PC, but this guy hates his curse so much that he wears a blindfold at all times, vowing to live his life blind rather than make use of it.
Malicant 04-23-05, 03:45 PM	I have a blind NPC, although he is a swordsman. Actually, he isn't blind and can see perfectly. But he has been mutated by a Daelkyr cult so that he has an uncontrollable petrification gaze attack. Anyone he sees is turned to stone. Obviously not something I would give to a PC, but this guy hates his curse so much that he wears a blindfold at all times, vowing to live his life blind rather than make use of it. Hey, I like this, mind if I 'steal this hook'? :D Dealkyr and their servants are my second favorite wild card in explaining strange backgrounds, by the way.
Wren 04-23-05, 03:50 PM	Can one Remove Blindness if one is born blind? Think about it... it would be natural for that character to be blind as blindness was not inflicted on him by an outside source. He could never see in the first place. Such a character could garner knowledge of what a room "looks" like just via a simple exchange of info between characters. If you wanted to acually work around the blindness to provide sight... psionics is the way to go. The character could learn to "See" sound. Much like the ability that Daredevil has. By second or third level you could possibly buy a wonderous item or dorje of the same power to provide a sure source of "sight" for that character. Exotic as the character concept is ... it does not need to hamper game play. It might actually aid role-play a bit.
Vharuck 04-23-05, 03:59 PM	Hey, I like this, mind if I 'steal this hook'? :D Dealkyr and their servants are my second favorite wild card in explaining strange backgrounds, by the way. I agree. Yoink! Also, I was just thinking of some way to justify this when the one poster mentioned the Mournland. Being blind sucks. So does having one arm. So does having no tongue. Trying to put these disabilities on your PC and demand balance is almost contradictory, and completely counter-intuitive. However, saying your eyes melted and welded shut, but you were given some kind of mental power that allowed you to see just like normal people works. Because, in the end, all it is is a very fluffy and fancy way of saying, "I see the same things as Bob there."
Gurv 04-23-05, 04:03 PM	Can one Remove Blindness if one is born blind? Such a character could garner knowledge of what a room "looks" like just via a simple exchange of info between characters. If you wanted to acually work around the blindness to provide sight... psionics is the way to go. The character could learn to "See" sound. Much like the ability that Daredevil has. By second or third level you could possibly buy a wonderous item or dorje of the same power to provide a sure source of "sight" for that character. Exotic as the character concept is ... it does not need to hamper game play. It might actually aid role-play a bit. DM call on the "born blind" thing. I thought of it, but couldn't find a rule about it. Psionics is definately the way to go with it. The synesthete (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersQtoW.html#synesthete) power is low level, and lasts long enough to make it work out. It doesn't let you see all the time (which would defeat the purpose of a blind character anyway), but often enough for it to not ruin the game. Better powers at higher levels too, with touchsight (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersQtoW.html#touchsight), not to mention all the clairsentience powers. A blind seer...a fun archetype. Hey, I like this, mind if I 'steal this hook'? Not all all. I have a feeling I stole it from somewhere myself...a comic perhaps? I don't remember. Just remember that the power affects anyone he looks at, not anyone who looks at him. He isn't a medusa, so a one-way veil won't work.
Wren 04-23-05, 04:28 PM	When I stated that the character could learn to "see" sound... I did mean taking a level of psion. I'm not suggesting you give it as a special ability. As always not everything can have a rule for it. So, it always comes down to DM fiat. One DM might enjoy the challange of having such a character in his campaign... while another would flat out refuse it. In the case of magic... you'd only have a blind character in a game if you could not for some reason remove his blindness. Only thing I could think of to provide for a Blind character in a DnD game is that either you don't have such a magic to cure or give sight... or the person can not be cured/healed. :shrug:
Siduakal 04-23-05, 07:32 PM	R.A. Salvatore has a blind ranger in the Dark Elf Trilogy (And he mentions him in the following books a few times) named Montolio. Montolio pretty much had an owl companion that would fly over the enemy and hoot. And he'd fire his arrow at that spot.
Wren 04-23-05, 07:36 PM	<Points UP> Been mentioned. Thanks. :P
Edymnion 04-23-05, 08:32 PM	Actually, Mournlands is a great explination. The City of Tower novel has an NPC essentially that was too close to the Mourning, and her entire mouth, teeth, and jaws were turned into obsidian. Stone teeth, couldn't talk. If your Archer was in the last war, and happened to be right on the boarder of Cyre, he could have SEEN the Mourning, and it was the last thing he ever saw... and no amount of magic can undo the power of the Mourning...
stembolt 04-24-05, 01:16 AM	Ok then, we are back to “don’t play the character anyway.” If the guy really is blind the aggravation of playing him will be overwhelming. Not for you, for the DM and the other players.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 04-24-05, 03:27 AM	There's a feat from Complete Adventurer that allows ranged combat within thirty feet without sight. No concealment or anything. It's not a listen versus a move-silently though, it's listen vs DC 10...
Setherial 04-24-05, 05:33 AM	Male Human Rgr1: CR 1; Medium Humanoid ; HD 1d10+1(Ranger) ; hp 11; Init +3; Spd 30; AC:15 (Flatfooted:12 Touch:13); Atk +1 base melee, +4 base ranged; +1 (1d6, Sword, short); +1 (1d4, Dagger); +5 (1d8, Longbow); AL LN; SV Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +3; STR 10, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 16, CHA 10. Skills: Animal Empathy +4, Climb +2, Concentration +4, Heal +5, Intuit Direction +5, Listen +7, Move Silently +6, Wilderness Lore +6, Profession Hunter +4. Feats: Armor Proficiency: light, Armor Proficiency: medium, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Track, Blind Fight, Hear the Unseen (Complete Adventurer), Weapon Focus (LongBow) Flaws: The character is blind and cannot be cured by Remove Blindness Favorite Enemy : Animal Possessions: Weapons: Longbow (75 gp); Arrows (50) (3 gp); Dagger (2 gp); Sword, short (10 gp). Armor: Leather (10 gp). Goods: Coin: gp (10) (10 gp); Coin: sp (5) (5 sp). Animal Companion : Hawk, CR 1/3; Tiny Animal ; HD 1d8 (Animal) ; hp 4; Init +3; Spd 10, Fly, Average 60; AC:15 (Flatfooted:12 Touch:15); Atk +0 base melee, +5 base ranged; +5 (1d4-2, Claws); AL N; SV Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2; STR 6, DEX 17, CON 10, INT 2, WIS 14, CHA 6. Skills: Hide +11. Feats: Weapon Finesse: Claws.
Malicant 04-24-05, 05:44 AM	Little correction: Rangers are not proficient with medium armor. [ignore this... you are using 3.0 as I just realized] And you should check the prerequisits for Hear the Unseen. But thats a nice solution for a blind archer. :)
Setherial 04-24-05, 06:04 AM	yeah you got me, we do still use mostly 3.0 Rules :) I must agree with stembolt however, despite his persistent negative appraoch to this post, that playing this character would quickly turn into a nightmare. It's cool stuff for a book but unless you play in a party where every single character has mayor flaws you'll quickly feel useless. anyway, I enjoyed everyones participation in this thread, thanks SeTh PS: my use of Hear the Unseen is almost correct (aside from the one missing rank in listen, but I figured tossing it in for free because of the blindness flaw). What is worse however is that the DC of this check is 25 and this makes it useless at such a low level.
Wren 04-24-05, 12:41 PM	It is of course all dependant on how the character is played if it'll be "useless" or not. Allthough... give yourself a level of bard and you'll still be beneficial to the party even if your archery does not. With bardic music you can buff up the rest of the party and still use your archery while you are performing. Just take chant or sing then you don't even need an instrument. Also... with bardic knowledge your character can help provide info for the party. The fact that you are using the animal companion to help you aim at your opponents will probally require a special "trick". Something you'll need to teach your companion to do. I can't remember for sure... (you'll need to look it up) but you might be able to have your hawk "hover" above the enemy and cry out repeatedly. This was what the Montolio's Owl did for him. It would hover above an enemy and hoot repeatedly to give the position of that enemy to Montolio. The Expanded Psionics Handbook has a good selection of powers that could provide you with sight. Being able to see sound or hear light both provide alternate means of discerning where enemies are. A psi-crystal might also provide a method of locating enemies and moving about as it can "see" a certain distance... even in darkness and could communicate what it sees directly to you. (though you are using 3.0 rules so this may not work as well)