A design question on Warforged. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A design question on Warforged. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MysteryGilgamesh
03-08-06, 06:11 PM Was there ever any reason put forth as to just why the only real way for a warforged to wear armor, is to take a feat for it (and most of those feats are 1st level only)?

I know they're living beings and all, but considering they repair themselves with kits and the like, I'm doubting them just bolting on a few plates with a harness attached and calling it full plate would bother them so much, especially with the various components they can already install into themselves.

I'm aware this was most likely a design decision, but I'm wondering "Why?", you know? It seems to make little sense to have a race of what is, essentually, robot people (okay, thats simplifying it, sure), and then saying "Modifying their body is either a feat, or magical items.". I'm curious as to just why they're (so far, anyway) unmodifiable with mundane materials.

Does anyone have an answer, or is this just another one of those "No one knows but the design team, and they can't say why" sort of things?
darkness ninja of light
03-08-06, 06:24 PM The reason they have armor feats at first level only is because it represents how the warforged was MADE. The mithril body warforged didn't just go and modify his armor with mithral. He was actually forged that way.
As for armor in general, since warforged are already made of "armor" then it wouldn't make sense to say that warforged can wear double armor for extra AC. You can't have a character get +8 AC by wearing two chain shirts, can he? It's no different for warforged.
MysteryGilgamesh
03-08-06, 06:37 PM The reason they have armor feats at first level only is because it represents how the warforged was MADE. The mithril body warforged didn't just go and modify his armor with mithral. He was actually forged that way.
As for armor in general, since warforged are already made of "armor" then it wouldn't make sense to say that warforged can wear double armor for extra AC. You can't have a character get +8 AC by wearing two chain shirts, can he? It's no different for warforged.

But the thing is, feats shouldn't represent inborn characteristics. Thats more of the providence of racial abilities.

Not to mention there's no real reason (flavor wise) that I've seen that should prevent them from tossing on a suit of plate (or whatever) over their core body chasis. I mean, they can make barding for horses, dragons, whatever, but it's impossible to make some sort of armor for a warforged other than what he was "born" with?

Thats sort of what I'm talking about...
igotsmeakabob!!
03-08-06, 06:38 PM Yeah it isn't just their plating, its IN them, it supports them, it protects vital areas. Its not just armor, its the same reason you can't BUY the feats with cash.
ChimericalWolf
03-08-06, 06:39 PM No, you wouldn't get +8 from wearing two suits of chain shirt, but it seems silly to me that a warforged with standard +2 composite armor doesn't get any kind of bonus if he were to drape a suitable chain shirt over his torso.

From what I can tell, Warforged aren't so unwieldy that a chain shirt would encumber them any more than it would a human or dwarf.

If I were more sure of my own intuitive sense of balance, I'd make a houserule where they can wear armor, and gain it's bonus if better, but can't benefit from any magic in that armor, since their plating already takes up their "body" item slot.
MysteryGilgamesh
03-08-06, 06:48 PM Yeah it isn't just their plating, its IN them, it supports them, it protects vital areas. Its not just armor, its the same reason you can't BUY the feats with cash.

Sure, it's not just armor, but they don't seem to have too much in the way of vitals, by their own racial entry and it's crit/SA negation chance. Not to mention they can fully remove those vitals eventually, more or less (via a PrC).

And as another poster said, they don't really seem so bulky that they couldn't wear armor atop their own body...
Dragom
03-08-06, 07:08 PM It's true they should able to plate armour on... However what you're over looking is that Warforged are a reflection of the "new" mythology like the robots of Assimov.

Much like there has never been a serious wizard in full plate in a fantasy there has never been a serious robot wearing a flack jacket in a sci fi novel.

It is non-sensical but sense is over whelmed by flavour.
Vegepygmy
03-08-06, 07:46 PM But the thing is, feats shouldn't represent inborn characteristics. Thats more of the providence of racial abilities.I disagree with your thesis. There are many, many feats that represent inborn/innate characteristics. Some of these feats represent abilities that manifest themselves only later in life (explaining why your 9th-level character only now developed the ability to channel his draconic heritage, for example), while others are specifically designated as being available for selection only at 1st level.

I don't see the problem you're seeing.
darkness ninja of light
03-08-06, 10:50 PM But the thing is, feats shouldn't represent inborn characteristics. Thats more of the providence of racial abilities.

I agree with Vegepygmy. There are plenty of feats that represent inborn characteristics. Almost all of these would say "Must be taken at 1st level".
It would be ridiculous to have a different race write-up for each different warforged with all of the same stats except for plate armor (and whatever balancing factor they would put in for better armored warforged). You pick warforged, then if you want one of the warforged that was built with different armor (some warforged were chosen to serve different purposes during the Last War, or were simply an experiment with body types, thus their armor is different) you would simply take the feat at first level.

Not to mention there's no real reason (flavor wise) that I've seen that should prevent them from tossing on a suit of plate (or whatever) over their core body chasis. I mean, they can make barding for horses, dragons, whatever, but it's impossible to make some sort of armor for a warforged other than what he was "born" with?

Yes, they make barding for horses and dragons (really?) and whatever, but notice that these are flesh creatures as well. Armor protection (particularly metal) does A LOT for flesh creatures.
Of course a warforged CAN put a chain shirt on and be okay. He can walk and do whatever. It just won't provide him any more protection then he already has. Thus, if a human wore a chain shirt, then proceeded to put another (slightly larger, so it would fit) chain shirt, he would be able to move...but it actually wouldn't improve his AC.

Think of it this way. Without armor, an ordinary human is VERY vulnerable to attack and damage. A human gains a lot of protection from a chain shirt. "A lot" of protection is defined by the AC bonus a chain shirt gives, which is "a lot".
Without (add on) armor, a warforged is not vulnerable, since he has built in armor as well as light fortification.
A chain shirt added on to him does not offer "a lot" of protection, since he already had it. Thus, if a warforged put on a chain shirt, the AC bonus is tiny, considered non existant.

Sure, it's not just armor, but they don't seem to have too much in the way of vitals, by their own racial entry and it's crit/SA negation chance. Not to mention they can fully remove those vitals eventually, more or less (via a PrC).

The prestige class is an actual evolution of the warforged themselves (almost monk-like), not an actual "show up for an appointment at the articifer's and get your vitals removed". The vitals are there, but the warforged plating actually is designed to cover it up, thus the valuable light fortification armor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MysteryGilgamesh 03-08-06, 06:11 PM	Was there ever any reason put forth as to just why the only real way for a warforged to wear armor, is to take a feat for it (and most of those feats are 1st level only)? I know they're living beings and all, but considering they repair themselves with kits and the like, I'm doubting them just bolting on a few plates with a harness attached and calling it full plate would bother them so much, especially with the various components they can already install into themselves. I'm aware this was most likely a design decision, but I'm wondering "Why?", you know? It seems to make little sense to have a race of what is, essentually, robot people (okay, thats simplifying it, sure), and then saying "Modifying their body is either a feat, or magical items.". I'm curious as to just why they're (so far, anyway) unmodifiable with mundane materials. Does anyone have an answer, or is this just another one of those "No one knows but the design team, and they can't say why" sort of things?
darkness ninja of light 03-08-06, 06:24 PM	The reason they have armor feats at first level only is because it represents how the warforged was MADE. The mithril body warforged didn't just go and modify his armor with mithral. He was actually forged that way. As for armor in general, since warforged are already made of "armor" then it wouldn't make sense to say that warforged can wear double armor for extra AC. You can't have a character get +8 AC by wearing two chain shirts, can he? It's no different for warforged.
MysteryGilgamesh 03-08-06, 06:37 PM	The reason they have armor feats at first level only is because it represents how the warforged was MADE. The mithril body warforged didn't just go and modify his armor with mithral. He was actually forged that way. As for armor in general, since warforged are already made of "armor" then it wouldn't make sense to say that warforged can wear double armor for extra AC. You can't have a character get +8 AC by wearing two chain shirts, can he? It's no different for warforged. But the thing is, feats shouldn't represent inborn characteristics. Thats more of the providence of racial abilities. Not to mention there's no real reason (flavor wise) that I've seen that should prevent them from tossing on a suit of plate (or whatever) over their core body chasis. I mean, they can make barding for horses, dragons, whatever, but it's impossible to make some sort of armor for a warforged other than what he was "born" with? Thats sort of what I'm talking about...
igotsmeakabob!! 03-08-06, 06:38 PM	Yeah it isn't just their plating, its IN them, it supports them, it protects vital areas. Its not just armor, its the same reason you can't BUY the feats with cash.
ChimericalWolf 03-08-06, 06:39 PM	No, you wouldn't get +8 from wearing two suits of chain shirt, but it seems silly to me that a warforged with standard +2 composite armor doesn't get any kind of bonus if he were to drape a suitable chain shirt over his torso. From what I can tell, Warforged aren't so unwieldy that a chain shirt would encumber them any more than it would a human or dwarf. If I were more sure of my own intuitive sense of balance, I'd make a houserule where they can wear armor, and gain it's bonus if better, but can't benefit from any magic in that armor, since their plating already takes up their "body" item slot.
MysteryGilgamesh 03-08-06, 06:48 PM	Yeah it isn't just their plating, its IN them, it supports them, it protects vital areas. Its not just armor, its the same reason you can't BUY the feats with cash. Sure, it's not just armor, but they don't seem to have too much in the way of vitals, by their own racial entry and it's crit/SA negation chance. Not to mention they can fully remove those vitals eventually, more or less (via a PrC). And as another poster said, they don't really seem so bulky that they couldn't wear armor atop their own body...
Dragom 03-08-06, 07:08 PM	It's true they should able to plate armour on... However what you're over looking is that Warforged are a reflection of the "new" mythology like the robots of Assimov. Much like there has never been a serious wizard in full plate in a fantasy there has never been a serious robot wearing a flack jacket in a sci fi novel. It is non-sensical but sense is over whelmed by flavour.
Vegepygmy 03-08-06, 07:46 PM	But the thing is, feats shouldn't represent inborn characteristics. Thats more of the providence of racial abilities.I disagree with your thesis. There are many, many feats that represent inborn/innate characteristics. Some of these feats represent abilities that manifest themselves only later in life (explaining why your 9th-level character only now developed the ability to channel his draconic heritage, for example), while others are specifically designated as being available for selection only at 1st level. I don't see the problem you're seeing.
darkness ninja of light 03-08-06, 10:50 PM	But the thing is, feats shouldn't represent inborn characteristics. Thats more of the providence of racial abilities. I agree with Vegepygmy. There are plenty of feats that represent inborn characteristics. Almost all of these would say "Must be taken at 1st level". It would be ridiculous to have a different race write-up for each different warforged with all of the same stats except for plate armor (and whatever balancing factor they would put in for better armored warforged). You pick warforged, then if you want one of the warforged that was built with different armor (some warforged were chosen to serve different purposes during the Last War, or were simply an experiment with body types, thus their armor is different) you would simply take the feat at first level. Not to mention there's no real reason (flavor wise) that I've seen that should prevent them from tossing on a suit of plate (or whatever) over their core body chasis. I mean, they can make barding for horses, dragons, whatever, but it's impossible to make some sort of armor for a warforged other than what he was "born" with? Yes, they make barding for horses and dragons (really?) and whatever, but notice that these are flesh creatures as well. Armor protection (particularly metal) does A LOT for flesh creatures. Of course a warforged CAN put a chain shirt on and be okay. He can walk and do whatever. It just won't provide him any more protection then he already has. Thus, if a human wore a chain shirt, then proceeded to put another (slightly larger, so it would fit) chain shirt, he would be able to move...but it actually wouldn't improve his AC. Think of it this way. Without armor, an ordinary human is VERY vulnerable to attack and damage. A human gains a lot of protection from a chain shirt. "A lot" of protection is defined by the AC bonus a chain shirt gives, which is "a lot". Without (add on) armor, a warforged is not vulnerable, since he has built in armor as well as light fortification. A chain shirt added on to him does not offer "a lot" of protection, since he already had it. Thus, if a warforged put on a chain shirt, the AC bonus is tiny, considered non existant. Sure, it's not just armor, but they don't seem to have too much in the way of vitals, by their own racial entry and it's crit/SA negation chance. Not to mention they can fully remove those vitals eventually, more or less (via a PrC). The prestige class is an actual evolution of the warforged themselves (almost monk-like), not an actual "show up for an appointment at the articifer's and get your vitals removed". The vitals are there, but the warforged plating actually is designed to cover it up, thus the valuable light fortification armor.