Post/Author/DateTime	Post
treehouse916 02-20-05, 11:30 PM	...would it work? When I start my Eberron campaign (not sure when), I will have three reliable players and one on-and-off player that I will probably ask to be an assistant DM when he can play. I don't want anyone playing more than one character. I don't want to play an NPC that follows them around, either. I definitely want this to be a more immersive game than my current one. They are all mature gamers - I know I can depend on them to not munchkinize the gestalt system. If you don't know what I am referring to when I say gestalt, check in the variant rulebook Unearthed Arcana. It basically allows you to advance in two classes at once, and it is very powerful. If I were to do the system, I would use a 32 point buy to allow for more effective gestalt players. All NPCs with non-NPC class levels would also be gestalt. So, has anyone else tried this? How does the gestalt system mesh with the Eberron world?
Greyson 02-21-05, 12:00 AM	I definitely think the Gestalt Character variant can work in Eberron. I like the episodic potential that Gestalt Characters offer, and that premise fits well in the world of Eberron. While I have never used this character variant, it seems like a good idea if you only have three players. Let us know how it works. I bet the players will really like it. Just make sure that the adventures are challenging enough for their variant characters. Happy gaming.
Dagda Mor 02-21-05, 01:03 AM	I think it's a great idea, especially with the mature players you have. I've never tried the system but it sounds like it has alot of potential.
stone_dog 02-21-05, 01:33 AM	Mine is working great. I have four players, each one with a special niche. A goliath (calling it half giant in the context of the game) Berserker (Black Company)/Ranger (BC version) is our power house with the added benifit of being able to help the party survive in the wild. A Human Noble (Swashbuckling adventures)/ Rogue (feats instead of sneak attack dice) is our social support. He is a rather dashing character with no shortage of nimble skill and art with a rapier. A halfling rogue/Jack of all trades (BC again) is the general skill monkey. Infiltration, thievery, scouting... "Its what I do." An Elven artificer/acadamician (BC) supplies the magical might as well as being a general font of knowlege. There is no cleric as yet, but that shouldn't be a problem since... well, to explain that I should get to work on a real play thread. I am toying with mentioning to the Noble that he could take a leadership feat to gain a Jorasco Healer as a cohort just to make things a touch easier. I ran them through a SotLW varient as eighth level characters and they barely made it out alive without alterations to the critters! Not like they made bad choices, the fire elementals just worked them good and hard!
Doctor X 02-21-05, 02:16 AM	I think it would fit in Eberron better than it would in most other settings, really. It definitely would add to the feeling of characters who are a cut above the norm. However, I'd be careful with it. One of the most important aspects of the Eberron feel is having challenging encounters that put the players on the edge of their seats. Gestalt gives characters such flexibility that weaknesses might be difficult to find... so unless you up the stakes, the party willl roll over your encounters like they're nothing. You definitely don't want that to happen. In Eberron, combat should never be boring and unfulfilling.
Radazim 02-21-05, 01:17 PM	One thing I've considered to tone down the power of Gestalt is the following house rules: 1. All class features that can be mathematically averaged are averaged rather than taking "best of". E.g., BAB, HD, Saves, etc. 2. Each time the character gains a level, they can level up in a "primary" class and a "secondary" class. The "primary" class is fixed at character creation and will always equal the character level, while the "secondary" class can be changed each level. Multiclassing XP penalties apply only to the secondary classes. 3. Prestige classes are taken as a "secondary" class. Prestige classes that grant +1 caster level only affect "secondary" classes - primary classes are always equal to character level anyway. Just some ideas to tone down Gestalt a bit.
Gez 02-21-05, 01:24 PM	A system I've seen is to force gestalt with an NPC class. It allows characters to be better rounded-up (a wizard could have the BAB and HD of a warrior) without being as powerful as full-PC-class gestalts would be. With adept, aristocrat, expert, magewright and warrior, everyone can have a "profession" class and a "heroic" class that could complement or synergize each other. It's also useful for closing gaps in a party. Nobody wanted to be the healer? Well, if a couple of heroes gestalt in adept, they'll have some healing spells at their disposal anyway. Mmh, a gestalt wizard/magewright could be a magical powerhouse with that feat that lets spontaneously convert prepared spells into mastered spells... :D
AvonRekaes 02-21-05, 01:32 PM	I've run an eberron game with Gestalt before and am going to again. Personally, I like overpowered PCs in games I run, because that means I can throw more stuff at them. Sure, you won't be able to challenge them as much with mundane stuff... but thats something you'd have to face as a DM in a couple of levels anyway. Besides, the Forgotten Forge adventure in the back of the ECS nearly killed a party of three level 1 gestalt characters using Wound Points and Vitality. Damn Horrid Rats nearly ate them alive. Your suggestions are good, with the Primary and Secondary classes. Although I wouldn't worry about the BAB, SP, and HD thing. It's not that much of a problem. I generally don't worry about the saves being too high like UA suggests and do NOT decrease CRs of monsters with save-or-die things by 2. Gestalt doesn't make any one individual save better than it should be, it just gives the character more good ones. For instance, with a Con of 14, a level one fighter has a Fort save of +4. A gestalt Fighter Barbarian still has a +4, and hell, he doesn't even increase any of his other saves. If you disagree with me, thats fine. This is just what I've experienced while running my gestalt game.
Edymnion 02-21-05, 02:18 PM	I'll admit, I've had a sick desire to play a Monk/Warlock gestalt character. Just think about it. Massive hand to hand martial arts damage, combined with at will energy beams... KAMEHAMEHA! :D
mercurywyrm 02-21-05, 02:43 PM	Hmm, I would want to try a scout/warmage, the skilled tactical mage! ;)
treehouse916 02-22-05, 12:36 PM	Edymnion, I don't think monk/warlock would work unless you were lawful evil, eh? Still, an interesting combo for a villain :) I'm glad gestalt works in Eberron. I will probably talk to my players about it before we do character creation so they can pick out some good combos to go with. Hopefully someone will pick up a class with healing abilities - that was a problem at the start of their current campaign. I really like your idea of primary and secondary classes, Radazim. The only other alternative would have been to eliminate multiclassing penalties altogether, but then I'd probably have to give humans and half-elves something for trivializing one of their best racial features. I've got to admit, gestalt is very appealing to me as a DM - my mind is dancing with the possibilities for villains already. Has anyone had any bad experiences with the gestalt system in general? What problems should I look out for? I know there are several prestige classes that become sorta useless, such as eldritch knight and arcane trickster. I'll probably need to go through all of the Complete books and do some weeding as well. Thanks for all of the advice so far, you guys have been a real help.
Edymnion 02-22-05, 02:16 PM	Edymnion, I don't think monk/warlock would work unless you were lawful evil, eh? Still, an interesting combo for a villain :)Eh, just drop that restrictive background flavor it has, and the alignment restrictions with it, and you're good to go.
Magagumo 02-22-05, 02:27 PM	While not necessarily Eberronnian in setting, I have considered oen day running a gestalt game with the "something special" focus. Personally, I have considered the "primary/secondary" classes, though I would center it around preferred racial classes- This avoids multiclassing tie-ups, and helps maintain the presence of championship- I.e. The Dwarf Druid/FIghter is still the paragon of his people, but his ties to nature are impressive as well. Humans and other "Any" Multiclassers could pick one class and stick with it throughout, and I think allowing the "Paragon Race" class levels as substitutes for the favored class [at least for three levels] could also work well. Thoughts?
Okami 02-22-05, 03:07 PM	As long as your players are mature it should not be too much of a problem. It definatly makes for a versatile group. The biggest problem I have run into is the players I have seem a bit overstimulated by the possibilities of class combinations. A firm hand in pruning and regulating PrCs is definatly needed if you want to keep your sanity. Sometimes, despite the excitement, my players have even forgotten about the second class as they were getting adjusted to the concept of 2 at a time. Overall I like it because it opens the players up to being more versatile at a quicker rate of return. It does require you to amp the world up a bit but nothing beyond reason. One of my players made a comment in assumption that since all of the npcs were more than likely straightline classed they (the PCs) would be gods in Eberron. Luckily I was prepared for such an ego :) Conceptwise it feels a lot more complete, and once you remake the Lord of Blades using the variant you will never want to look back.
Edymnion 02-22-05, 05:22 PM	A firm hand in pruning and regulating PrCs is definatly needed if you want to keep your sanity.Don't remember what the official rules for it are, but I would HIGHLY suggest that you either ban all PrC outright if you are going to use Gestalt (there is no character CONCEPT that cannot be built with Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, and Cleric with some multiclassing and roleplaying, and Gestalt totally removes the multiclassing problems). Or at the very least, say they can level up in gestalt base classes, OR take levels in *A* PrC. No Gestalting PrC, and definately no using the "multiclassing patch" PrC like Mystic Theurge.
Altaris 02-22-05, 05:52 PM	I've thought of using the Gestalt rules as well, but was concerned about the PCs being too powerhoused. I've got a Rogue who recently became a Paladin, and took the Knightly training feat. What do you all say about making non-gestalt characters Gestalt? I've briefly discussed it with my players, and they seem up for the idea.
Edymnion 02-22-05, 05:59 PM	What do you all say about making non-gestalt characters Gestalt? I've briefly discussed it with my players, and they seem up for the idea.I'd say make 'em work for it, but yeah, go for it. Next time they level up, they can instead choose to spend that massive amount of xp on a single level of gestalt (so they would be a gestalt Fighter 10/Wizard 1, for example). After that, they can either spend xp to level up the secondary gestalt class (as in, the secondary class keeps it's own xp total), or keep going in their first one. Which, really, could be a more balanced way of implimenting gestalt than the normal way. Make 'em pay for each level in XP, like they were playing two characters, just squished into one. More like 2e Dual Classing instead of 3e Gestalt.
Radazim 02-22-05, 06:21 PM	There seem to be several different categories of Prestige Classes. One group simply addresses the shortcomings of multiclassing and caster levels, so gestalt pretty much makes them redundant anyway. Not really a balance issue. Other PrC's do add new class features that are not merely hybrids - these PrC's could be taken using my "secondary" class idea in order to have access to those features. (Spellsword's reduced arcane spell failure is a nifty PrC class feature that comes to mind.) In the end, I think that liberal use of Rule Zero with a mature group who is more interested in flavor than min/maxing would work best.
obrysii 02-27-05, 09:13 PM	I'm currently playing a Gestalt eberron pre-written (the module) game. So far, it's worked out really well. But then again, there's only three players. My character is a Cleric/Wizard-->Geomancer type.
Delusionist 03-01-05, 12:02 AM	I recommended my players run gestalts because we had 3 reliable players at the time. The number has settled on about 4 players per night. It hasn't been too bad. The players are presented with constant challenges and I've pretty much run them through the published adventures with a little spice added. The group is 6th or 7th level so it may be getting to the point where it becomes tougher for me as a GM. I followed the advice about lowering rewards for encounters. I also gave the group a generous point buy so I often modify some of the encounters to use the elite array. When I was doing that I was regularly handing the group the collective bottoms on a platter. Most encounters would end with someone being near or below 0 hit points. I didn't pull too many punches with the monsters and often monsters would flee when they were getting the worst of it. Most creatures encountered do not have a death wish so they flee. I have been running Grasp of the Emerald Claw as written. The group is not too powerful for this adventure. (Is it just me or was the dire shark reek of TPK?) The adventure is written for 6th level characters and they have three 6th level and one 7th level characters. The combat has been brutal on the group. Three of the group has a class with +1 BAB per level and most have at least 2 good saves. They are low on arcane spell casting power but they choose their classes. I have ruled that the characters can only ever get the +2 for each saving throw only one time to keep that in check. What I've found is that gestalts allow for a great deal of flexibility in character creation and advancement, there is a trade off. The character has to be more balanced with their stats or they are much better in one class. It is much tougher to excel at two classes than at one. I think that is a good thing though. I have run through options on limiting gestalts. I came up with the favored class option mentioned earlier. I also considered one core class and one NPC class. I was thinking of using the generic classes in UA instead. If your players are mature it will be a great time. I am one who finds myself watching movies and wondering what classes and levels the character in the movie has. I often come to the conclusion that there are a great number of gestalts in the theater. If you don't hold back with the monsters and make them smart it will be fine. Just be sure you enforce the general rules of the game and there will still be plenty of opportunity for you to show them their weak spots. My group for example can't seem to find a face man.
Bubba333 03-01-05, 05:48 AM	Ah gestalt! How I love that variant! It's fantastic, IMO and allows for some very interesting characters. I'm DMing a few getsalt characters and it's a BLAST! We have: Salaqui Meliamne (Female Half-elf, Fighter/Scout) PC Telkas (Male Shifter, Rogue/Scout) PC O'aquis (Male Personality Warforged, Druid/Ranger) NPC Cayla d'Cannith (Female Human, Aristocrat/Artificer/Dragonmaked Heir) NPC Thresher of False Dragons (Male Human, Blackguard/Cleric/Monk) NPC Gravethorn (Male Personality Warforged, Fighter/Monk) NPC Blood Monsoon (Female Elf, Dervish/Fighter/Ranger) NPC Il'xia (Female Drow, Ranger/Rogue) NPC Ferregin Steelbite (Male Shifter, Commoner/Rogue/Weretouched Master) NPC Grey Stone (Male Human, Rogue/Urban Ranger/Urban Soul) NPC Bob (Male Human, Aristocrat/Commoner) NPC ;) I'm constantly making new characters just to see what neat combinations I can come up with and in doing so have made some excellent NPCs.