Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raginbull00 06-22-05, 02:30 AM	How would you roleplay a rogue/paladin or a rogue/cleric in Eberron? What things could this character get away with w/o violating their code (assuming the character is good aligned)? I've never tried playing a sneaky goody two shoes before and would love to see 1st hand the things that I can and can't do. Please offer some advice. Graphic Situational examples would be great. Thanks in advance.
Marshall Stone 06-22-05, 02:57 AM	How would you roleplay a rogue/paladin or a rogue/cleric in Eberron? What things could this character get away with w/o violating their code (assuming the character is good aligned)? I've never tried playing a sneaky goody two shoes before and would love to see 1st hand the things that I can and can't do. Please offer some advice. Graphic Situational examples would be great. Thanks in advance. Why would anything be different for Rogue/Paladin then it would be for a straight paladin? What I mean is a Paladin's code doesn't get changed or modified just because he knows how to hide himself in shadows or step lightly. Also, is this character a Rogue first who "saw the light" and became a Paladin? or a Paladin who noted a lack in his ability to scale walls and sneak about in the enemy's lair and decided he wanted to learn such skills? What's the character's background? It's a matter of perspective. Rogues are thought of as Thieves but they don't have to be. And Paladins are thought of as righteous, which they are, but that doesn't mean they can't resort to being sneaky, to learning how to disable traps, opening locked doors with skill as opposed to brawn, etc. I made a "rogue" diplomat once without most of the stereotypical "rogue" skills. Now just because the class was called Rogue I still played a Diplomatic Noble type character. So a Paladin/Rogue that still wants to be a Paladin would still have to conform to the Paladin's code. But the code dosen't prohibit the Paladin from learning the skills and talents of the Rogue class. The code does prohibit when, where, what circumstances, the Paladin would USE those abilities but that's true of any skill and ability the Paladin has. Graphical situational examples: Paladin wants to rescue a princess locked in a tower. Paladin, using the training he received from the Changeling Rogue in his party. He climbs the walls, hides and move silently to the princess doors, searches for traps, opens the locks, manages to evade the blow of a secreted guard that surprised him with his uncanny dodge, smites the evil guard down, gets the princess and uses his use magic device skill to activate a scroll that teleports the paladin and the princess back to town. However change "rescue princess" to "obtain a golden chest" and that's stealing buddy, goes against the Paladin's code, and so not something a paladin would do.
Crimsonsun 06-22-05, 04:21 AM	Since Marshell did a pretty good job on the rogue/paladin thing, I guess I could cover the cleric part. Eberron makes it REALLY easy to do this. You could either have your diplomatic/conversion cleric ("Hey, you KNOW the Silver Flame is the only one true force out there (Bluff)) or your Church Funding Supply Officer ("Well, the Flame REALLY needs that gold shipment that the Dark Six church across town just got... By the Holy Light of the Flame, I shall accquire it for good use!")
Straylight 06-22-05, 04:39 AM	Both good examples above, though I might add the following to Crimsonsun's: Remember that in Eberron, clerics get spells no matter what, even if they aren't the most, shall we say, virtuous individuals. The Silver Flame may be Lawful Good, but that doesn't mean there aren't Chaotic, Neutral and Chaotic Neutral followers. There won't be many, I imagine, but there's nothing RAW that says you can't be a cleric of the Flame and not be a thief. The point about Rogues not necessarily being thieves is also a very good one. Right now I'm building an investigative journalist ("Investigative" in the same way as Hunter Thompson) for the Chronicle to use in am upcoming game. She's a Rogue by class and has the Spot/Search/Listen to prove it, but she doesn't have any of the other "normal" Rogue skills. I'm planning on multiclassing her to Master Inquisitive later on, and I'm considering asking the GM for that game if I can use the alternate rules that allow me to replace my Sneak Attack with additional feats. [For those wondering, the alternate rules are basically thus: The Rogue can take an additional feat every time he would normally gain another Sneak Attack die, but at the cost of losing his Sneak Attack ability altogether. Which feats are allowable is between the GM and the player, and the GM is encouraged to come up with a list of appropriate feats the Rogue may choose from, but I digress...]
Setherial 06-22-05, 05:49 AM	Good resposes guys some additional thoughts: - paladin class should dictate how the character behaves despite other classes - Cleric class doesn't dictate anything other then a strong believe in some highter being. Clerics can be sneaky backstabbing stealing shady individuals. - Choose a background and flesh out how he came to be what he is I like the one mentioned before as it is the most likely, a thief chenges his ways and turns to god. As a low life scumbag he must have done something remarkabel to be touched by the gods and become a paladin though. A cleric or Templar would be more likely choices of turning to god and changing your ways. A Paladin however doesn't just choose God, God chooses him. Ofcourse you can play the other option, a paladin or cleric who renounced his faith after a traumatic event and changed to a life of crime. In gameterms this ofcourse hurts your character as you become an ex-paladin. - sneak attack is an interesting ability to think about. Starlights approach is a way to get around it. As another option one could look at sneak attack as a tactical feat, using tumble and flanking to hit where it hurts when already engaged in combat. This does not mean sneaking up from the shadows and backstabbing an unexpected individual in a non combat situation. - For a paladin it might help to come up with some sort of honour code he follows (I would like to see some here in this thread actually) Something that might help as a start is using the old code of Dragonheart as a template : A knight is sworn to valor. His heart knows only virtue. His blade defends the helpless. His might upholds the weak. His words speak only truth. His wrath undoes the wicked. cheers SeTh
Raginbull00 06-22-05, 12:59 PM	Wow! Thanks guys! As far as game mechanics go... I'm thinking about going first level rogue, second level cleric OR paladin, 3rd level rogue, 4th level cleric OR paladin... etc. I want this char. to be the groups back up player. He can heal wounds, and disable traps. Very useful skills to have. I'm not really going for the thief that repented... I'm going for the country that realized that maybe their clergy would benefit from learning how to survive when large numbers of enemies were searching for them. Hiding in the shadows can be a very life saving skill. I never plan on wearing anything heavier than studded leather armor with this guy. I think the feats Dodge, and Mobility will greatly enhance this characters ability to fight to see another day. It's interesting though about how people view sneak attack in these situations though. Using it as more of a "tactical" ability. That's very cool. I'm worried that when playing this char. the rogue in me might take over, and I might forget that I shouldn't have handled that specific situation in the particular way that I did. You know... like "opps... I forgot not to hide, move silently and sneak up on the guard and cut him ear to ear." I'm not really worried about that... I'm worried about the less extreme things that I just shouldn't do. A list of "no no's" would be nice. I'm leaning more towards rogue/cleric than rogue/paladin right now. But who knows. Things can change.
Siran Dunmorgan 06-22-05, 01:05 PM	How would you roleplay a rogue/paladin or a rogue/cleric in Eberron? What things could this character get away with w/o violating their code (assuming the character is good aligned)? I've never tried playing a sneaky goody two shoes before and would love to see 1st hand the things that I can and can't do. Please offer some advice. Graphic Situational examples would be great. Thanks in advance. Well, a good literary/cinematic model of a high-level rogue/paladin could be found here (http://thepulp.net/docsavage.html). —Siran Dunmorgan
Crimsonsun 06-22-05, 02:17 PM	Wow! Thanks guys! As far as game mechanics go... I'm thinking about going first level rogue, second level cleric OR paladin, 3rd level rogue, 4th level cleric OR paladin... etc. Note that you cant multiclass freely from paladin without taking the Knightly Training feat (or i think there is an eberron specific one in the ECS)
N-|) 06-22-05, 04:03 PM	Okay no one has said this yet, and I haven't played in Eberron yet so call me a n00b if i'm wrong, but..... In the players handbook it says that when a Paladin multi-classes he can no longer take additional Paladin levels and if a character multi-classes into a Paladin he must take only Paladin levels. So is it different in Eberron?
Manshara 06-22-05, 04:23 PM	As Crimsonsun said right before you, N-|), you're right--one cannot multiclass freely in Eberron. But the Knightly Training feat in Eberron Campaign Setting allows free multiclassing with another class.
okaynowa 06-23-05, 02:44 AM	I like to think of the paladin/rogue as the fantasy undercover cop: righteous mission and power, kept under wraps until the time is right. Paladins typically have high Charisma scores, which is perfect for rogue class skills like Bluff, Disguise, and Perform. The paladin/rogue can shmooze his way past the henchman, and the lich lord will never see the holy smite coming. As for "sneak attacking," remember that it works when the foe is flanked or flatfooted. The former is gained through team work (a good thing for paladins), and the latter can be gotten through the feint/improved feint maneuver (a good choice since it benefits from juicy Bluff rolls). As for the rogue/cleric, you'll have less combat presence but more magic at your disposal. That's great for healing, but don't forget fun useful spells like silence, darkness, command, and so forth. As for "no-no's," that depends a lot on the cleric's faith and sense of pragmatism. A lot can be justified in the name of devotion, but it's important that the rogue/cleric have a strong sense of what's permissable from the beginning. Principles can change over time, certainly, but it's not a good idea to make them up as you go along. Lemme see if I can give some examples: --A cleric/rogue of Boccob is dedicated to the collection, study, and preservation of magic. Boccob "the Uncaring" doesn't have a reputation for strong moral guidance, so this priest has pretty broad license when it comes to interpreting his duties. If magic is lost, he finds it. If it's in the "wrong" hands, he's not above liberating it. It's wiser not to hurt others or break too many laws while doing so, but magic is his highest priority and it operates by different rules. (I just realized I used a Greyhawk deity instead of an Eberron deity, but the example still stands.) --A cleric/rogue of a goddess of mercy is all about taking the non-violent route. Lots of social skills for negotiation, lots of stealth skills for going around the guards instead of whacking them. The priest still uses sneak attack because it's effecient, but uses a sap or other non-lethal weapon because it's the humane thing to do. Stealing for personal profit is wrong, but stealing from the wicked to give to the deserving is divine redistribution. This priest knows that most laws are meant to protect people, but some are tyrannical, and has no qualms about disobeying unjust rulers. Think of the cleric/rogue as the ultimate field operative for his faith-- a cross between Brother Cadfael and Indiana Jones.
vivid_disorder 06-25-05, 05:28 AM	The Cleric rogue could be the classic archetype of the gruff priest with a turbulent past. It's a reasonably common archetype, in detective fiction anyway, the man of peace who struggles against his urge to bang heads together. Another route to think of would be the charismatic flim-flam man. A tent revivalist with genuine divine magic could be a potent force. Particularly if he started the whole thing as an elaborate con then, for no apparent reason, began to manifest actual divine magic. He's still a scam artist at heart, but has had to significantly re-evaluate his view of the universe. Another possibility comes to mind: the armies of the last war must have had chaplains - who would be more suited to skill-monkeyism than combat skills. Armies fighting the Karrns would be particularly glad of a cleric who could tumble to where he was needed, blast a few zombies then retreat behind the lines to get back to healing the wounded.