A mild rant- Eberron is NOT low level [Archive] - Wizards Community

A mild rant- Eberron is NOT low level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Charles Phipps
07-08-06, 06:03 PM A reminder for my fellow Eberron folk, Eberron is NOT a low level setting. This is a setting with Rajahs, the Daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, the Quori, the Deathless, and god knows how many other massively wicked evils out there. It's important to note that its not just these alien wicked monsters that are the only creatures out there as well.

Eberron *has* heroes other than the PCs. They're just not going to be the plucky adventurers the PCs are mostly going to be nor are they going to nab the spotlight. There's agents for all of the Crown, Gatekeepers, great warriors of the Crown, and powerful magicians all out there.

What Keith has done is provide a setting where low level characters CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE and D&D's statement that 13th through 15th is HIGH level and very powerful in the world (unlike certain OTHER settings) but this is not especially new. We had people making massive changes at 13th level in Dragonlance, Birthright, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft.

So some general assumptions that need to be thrown out the window...

1. It is not overwhelmingly shocking if a character is 13th level or not, he just has a very good story or he's VERY GOOD AT HIS job.

(Eberron is one of the settings its clarrified people can be raised to high level doing their jobs)

2. PCs past 7th level are never going to be able to encounter fellow humans or other people of their level or above.

3. The Five Nations will be helpless against a party of high level NPCs with no resources equal to them to call upon.

4. All people are incompetents on the planet except the PCs and can contibrute nothing against the bad guys.
Jancarius
07-09-06, 04:38 PM Still, the average soldier is never any higher than 5th level warrior or fighter at best, and it does make it very difficult to challenge high level PCs with mass of NPCs.
Korhal_IV
07-09-06, 04:48 PM Still, the average soldier is never any higher than 5th level warrior or fighter at best, and it does make it very difficult to challenge high level PCs with mass of NPCs.
The "average soldier"??! The average soldier is never higher than 2nd or 3rd level. The elite soldier, like the Knight Phantoms, can hit 5th-8th. And 8th level characters can be a significant challenge for high level characters, if they think tactically and they have numbers on their side.
aelryinth
07-09-06, 06:20 PM Eberron IS low level if you consider 'low level' to mean not crawling with Epic Level Arcane Casters like most of the other arcane settings. At least here, they make the Epic level entities mostly monsters who GROW into that status and power, as opposed to every city having its own Archmage waiting to deal with a threat.

I mean, seriously, there's what, somewhere between 8 and 10 Epic level Archmagi in Waterdeep alone, with Three Chosen of Mystra, a mad ARchmage, and two Noble Lords among them, and an assortment of archmage and archpriests to back them up.

Greyhawk isn't quite so bad, but half the members of the circle of 8 are Epic level, also, and running into 10th+ level characters is commonplace if you deal with noble lords at all. You simply don't see low levels or NPC classes in places of power.

Eberron has posited the idea that you can have great skill just with mundane levels. Unfortunately, this tends to benefit the longer lived races the most, but it also lends credence to the idea that the work of those races tends to surpass all but the very best of human works.

===Aelryinth
Charles Phipps
07-09-06, 07:05 PM The "average soldier"??! The average soldier is never higher than 2nd or 3rd level. The elite soldier, like the Knight Phantoms, can hit 5th-8th. And 8th level characters can be a significant challenge for high level characters, if they think tactically and they have numbers on their side.

For me, the point is that there's going to be no problem if the PCs are 15th and 16th level and then the King calls for a Legendary Soldier whom might be 20th level. Yes, these guys will be rare and stuff but there's no absence of people that are rising in level along with the PCs and frankly the idea that there's this amazing derth bugs me.

No, its LOWER level but NOT Low level.
ArcTan
07-09-06, 08:07 PM Even in core D&D lvl 11+ characters are "legendary". (See the _legend lore_ spell.) A lvl 20 NPC is going to be higher level than even the most powerful legendary beings we know of -- Erandis d'Vol, the Great Druid Oalian, etc. It's not saying you can't have one, but if he exists he's going to be world famous and the subject of countless songs and stories.
Edymnion
07-09-06, 08:30 PM IMO, Eberron is a low level setting with the option of high level play.
Its clearly intended to provide most of it's content to low level character (hence veteran soldiers only being second level warriors, and high priests being expert/adepts).

Its the opposite of Faerun, which is a high level setting with the option of playing low levels.
Charles Phipps
07-09-06, 08:37 PM Even in core D&D lvl 11+ characters are "legendary". (See the _legend lore_ spell.) A lvl 20 NPC is going to be higher level than even the most powerful legendary beings we know of -- Erandis d'Vol, the Great Druid Oalian, etc. It's not saying you can't have one, but if he exists he's going to be world famous and the subject of countless songs and stories.

Not necessarily. Erandis D'vol's power is enough to shake worlds but she's also more important because of historical reasons. All I'm saying is the focus on prohibiting additions of higher levels is a tad premature.
aelryinth
07-09-06, 08:48 PM Even in core D&D lvl 11+ characters are "legendary". (See the _legend lore_ spell.) A lvl 20 NPC is going to be higher level than even the most powerful legendary beings we know of -- Erandis d'Vol, the Great Druid Oalian, etc. It's not saying you can't have one, but if he exists he's going to be world famous and the subject of countless songs and stories.
Legendary? Maybe 'talked about by bards.' Legendary is Epic.

This is the unfortunate rinse out of level creep. Back in the day, they had a mechanic for 'legends' - Name Level. This was the point where if you decided to stake a claim to land, your fame was enough to attract followers to you...i.e. you were talked about and 'known'. Leadership sort of does this, but has no wider implications.

I'd probably have to read Power of Faerun to get a better mechanic for actual 'fame', but 11+ characters in Greyhawk and Faerun might be respected, but with the amount of Epic running around, certainly aren't legends.

==+Aelryinth
Splendide
07-09-06, 08:52 PM Legendary? Maybe 'talked about by bards.' Legendary is Epic.I guess that depends on the scale of your world. In my games, there is no epic. I'm also fairly sure that there's no epic in core D&D either.
ArcTan
07-09-06, 08:53 PM Well, talked about bards enough that some bard in a completely different country who's never met you or been anywhere you've been nonetheless knows your story. That's pretty special -- what I suppose we'd think of in our world as "famous" or "a celebrity".

Written down in legend for generations and generations and generations and remembered 5,000 years later, sure, that's epic. Epic doesn't even exist in Eberron so far -- according to Keith the last epic warriors died generations ago, back in the Age of Monsters, before the existence of human civilization on Khorvaire.
Charles Phipps
07-09-06, 09:05 PM I oddly use Dragonlance as the standard to judge Eberron by (at least for PCs, monsters I base on Ravenloft). In Dragonlance, the most famous heroes "Evarr" are the Heroes of the Lance. They're a bunch of 7th levels who end up at 11th-13th level. That doesn't mean some awesomely powerful warriors don't exist, it just means that THEY were the ones to save the ENTIRE world.
Errant
07-09-06, 10:30 PM Seems to me its far too easy to link 'high level' to 'fame', when if you think about it, the higher in level a character gets the obvious the differences to 'normal' folk. I mean, how does your average NPC tell the difference between a 8th level fighter and an 18th level fighter if they're both walking down the street or sitting in the same bar?

Sure, PC equipment is typically going to get more powerful, but can how much difference can Mr Average see between a +3 Frost Longsword and a +5 Holy Icy Burst Longsword? The former will look impressive, and the latter even more impressive, sure, but people aren't likely to go around categorizing and collectiong comparative ratings for every impressive looking stranger that walks through town are they?

Likewise, many high level class powers (and spells) are very flashy *IF* you get to see them in action, but even if Mr Average gets to see a Meteor Swarm cast, does he really appreciate how much more powerful it is than a decent Fireball? Even on the battlefields of the Last War, did the average soldier keep track of how many and how powerful the spells were that supporting mages cast?

If you allow that most people have a little trouble distinguishing between mid-level and high-level level "heroes"/effects, its easy to see how many higher level characters could be underestimated and blend into the background as just another "tough'/accomplished individual.

I guess my point is, there could easily be a lot more "high level"/powerful individuals out there than public perception realises.
Hellcow
07-09-06, 11:01 PM All people are incompetents on the planet except the PCs and can contibrute nothing against the bad guys.
One point I'll make - and it's the only one I have time for - is that I disagree with the concept that low-level people ARE worthless. Even by standard D&D demographics, most people in the world are 1st level commoners. So most people you meet are going to have 4 levels of a Craft or Profession skill, maybe +1 from their standard array stats, and possibly a +3 from Skill Focus. That gives you a +8 bonus... not that bad! Give him a masterwork tool and he can hit a DC 30 check with an exceptional role! Likewise, if MOST soldiers are 1st or 2nd-level warriors, a 5th level fighter IS impressive. The point is to establish the baseline of the world. If the BASELINE - 95 out of a 100 people you'll meet on the street - is a 1st-level NPC class character, then a 6th level PC-class character IS an fairly amazing person.

So my whole point is not to assume that you HAVE to be high-level to be remarkably skilled. A 6th-level magewright with magecraft, Skill Focus, and a masterwork tool can have a +21 to a Craft check... not too shabby!

With that said, I agree with many of CP's points. There are certainly high level opponents out there. And the most important villains - Erandis, the Lord of Blades - may certainly level as the PCs do, as may others.

Still, the average soldier is never any higher than 5th level warrior or fighter at best, and it does make it very difficult to challenge high level PCs with mass of NPCs.
Correct, because the high-level PC shouldn't be challenged by average soldiers. If the nations need to challenge high level PCs, they are going to need to go to make a serious effort to do it. Sharn can call on the Blackened Book, the Redcloaks, the Citadel. Zilargo will bring in an elite Trust strike force (check out Madra Sil Sarin in Sharn). Anyone with enough gold can hire Thuranni. Are these people going to match high-level PCs one to one? Probably not. But as has been said, a group of competant mid-level characters acting with strong group tactics, with foreknowledge of their opponents' abilities and equipment to match, can pose a threat to careless higher level characters. The answer to rampaging PCs isn't an army of first-level NPCs... it's a few Redcloak teams working with tactical precision.

A high level PC SHOULD feel special, and should feel that he's not just going to get taken down by an average city guard. But elite forces do exist - they're just not AS elite as their counterparts in Waterdeep.

And, of course, there's nothing in Eberron saying that you CAN'T add higher level NPCs to your campaign. It's not that there CAN'T be high level NPCs in the world, or that we'll come and burn down your DM screen if you add a new 15th-level cleric. It's just that D&D demographics say the world is mostly populated by 1st-level NPCs, and Eberron embraces that. Low-level is normal, and high-level people are remarkable.
Hellcow
07-09-06, 11:05 PM Also, Aelryinth has hit it on the head with the point about high-level spellcasters. The thing about Eberron is that the relative derth of high-level spellcasters means that spells of 5th level are harder to come by. There just aren't a lot of people around who can throw wish or miracle around. Not that you can't add them, or that they can't arise as the PCs rise in level... but some of the basic assumptions of the level of magic in the world are founded on the idea that such things aren't commonplace - that you can't just go to a metropolis and buy a wish.
pquekadl
07-10-06, 01:30 AM I like to think that most of the high level characters died performing heroic acts during the last war and that the fearsome conflict prevented others ferm reaching that level because thay just couldn't live long enough. Now that the conflict has (sort of) stopped individuals across Khorvaire will once again be able to grow to great power.
Edymnion
07-10-06, 01:43 AM I prefer to think that the high level forces in Eberron are essentially balanced and holding each other at bay. No one group dares to make a move because they know the rest of the setting would band together to smack them back down. Everybody wants the world for themselves, and everybody is willing to make a temporary alliance with everybody else to make sure somebody doesn't get it first.

Especially considering the Quori would be actively working to PREVENT any high level stuff from really going on, out of fear that it would trigger changing of the age and their own destruction. So while Vol might want to take over a country, the Reiderans are stopping her. The Lords of Dust might want to pull something big, but the Dragons put a stop to it. Daelkyr might break loose, but all of the above turn around to try and get it imprisoned again ASAP.

And thats why high level adventuring becomes available to high level PCs, they upset the balance, and fights break out while things try to settle back down. Why didn't that Rajah break free earlier? Because everybody else was holding it in check, but when these high level PCs waltz through, they turned to see what was up, and the Rajah slipped out during the distraction, that sort of thing.

Epic play is there, but with the setting balanced the way it is, that sort of thing doesn't cause problems until the PCs go sticking their noses where they don't belong.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 07-08-06, 06:03 PM	A reminder for my fellow Eberron folk, Eberron is NOT a low level setting. This is a setting with Rajahs, the Daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, the Quori, the Deathless, and god knows how many other massively wicked evils out there. It's important to note that its not just these alien wicked monsters that are the only creatures out there as well. Eberron has heroes other than the PCs. They're just not going to be the plucky adventurers the PCs are mostly going to be nor are they going to nab the spotlight. There's agents for all of the Crown, Gatekeepers, great warriors of the Crown, and powerful magicians all out there. What Keith has done is provide a setting where low level characters CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE and D&D's statement that 13th through 15th is HIGH level and very powerful in the world (unlike certain OTHER settings) but this is not especially new. We had people making massive changes at 13th level in Dragonlance, Birthright, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft. So some general assumptions that need to be thrown out the window... 1. It is not overwhelmingly shocking if a character is 13th level or not, he just has a very good story or he's VERY GOOD AT HIS job. (Eberron is one of the settings its clarrified people can be raised to high level doing their jobs) 2. PCs past 7th level are never going to be able to encounter fellow humans or other people of their level or above. 3. The Five Nations will be helpless against a party of high level NPCs with no resources equal to them to call upon. 4. All people are incompetents on the planet except the PCs and can contibrute nothing against the bad guys.
Jancarius 07-09-06, 04:38 PM	Still, the average soldier is never any higher than 5th level warrior or fighter at best, and it does make it very difficult to challenge high level PCs with mass of NPCs.
Korhal_IV 07-09-06, 04:48 PM	Still, the average soldier is never any higher than 5th level warrior or fighter at best, and it does make it very difficult to challenge high level PCs with mass of NPCs. The "average soldier"??! The average soldier is never higher than 2nd or 3rd level. The elite soldier, like the Knight Phantoms, can hit 5th-8th. And 8th level characters can be a significant challenge for high level characters, if they think tactically and they have numbers on their side.
aelryinth 07-09-06, 06:20 PM	Eberron IS low level if you consider 'low level' to mean not crawling with Epic Level Arcane Casters like most of the other arcane settings. At least here, they make the Epic level entities mostly monsters who GROW into that status and power, as opposed to every city having its own Archmage waiting to deal with a threat. I mean, seriously, there's what, somewhere between 8 and 10 Epic level Archmagi in Waterdeep alone, with Three Chosen of Mystra, a mad ARchmage, and two Noble Lords among them, and an assortment of archmage and archpriests to back them up. Greyhawk isn't quite so bad, but half the members of the circle of 8 are Epic level, also, and running into 10th+ level characters is commonplace if you deal with noble lords at all. You simply don't see low levels or NPC classes in places of power. Eberron has posited the idea that you can have great skill just with mundane levels. Unfortunately, this tends to benefit the longer lived races the most, but it also lends credence to the idea that the work of those races tends to surpass all but the very best of human works. ===Aelryinth
Charles Phipps 07-09-06, 07:05 PM	The "average soldier"??! The average soldier is never higher than 2nd or 3rd level. The elite soldier, like the Knight Phantoms, can hit 5th-8th. And 8th level characters can be a significant challenge for high level characters, if they think tactically and they have numbers on their side. For me, the point is that there's going to be no problem if the PCs are 15th and 16th level and then the King calls for a Legendary Soldier whom might be 20th level. Yes, these guys will be rare and stuff but there's no absence of people that are rising in level along with the PCs and frankly the idea that there's this amazing derth bugs me. No, its LOWER level but NOT Low level.
ArcTan 07-09-06, 08:07 PM	Even in core D&D lvl 11+ characters are "legendary". (See the _legend lore_ spell.) A lvl 20 NPC is going to be higher level than even the most powerful legendary beings we know of -- Erandis d'Vol, the Great Druid Oalian, etc. It's not saying you can't have one, but if he exists he's going to be world famous and the subject of countless songs and stories.
Edymnion 07-09-06, 08:30 PM	IMO, Eberron is a low level setting with the option of high level play. Its clearly intended to provide most of it's content to low level character (hence veteran soldiers only being second level warriors, and high priests being expert/adepts). Its the opposite of Faerun, which is a high level setting with the option of playing low levels.
Charles Phipps 07-09-06, 08:37 PM	Even in core D&D lvl 11+ characters are "legendary". (See the _legend lore_ spell.) A lvl 20 NPC is going to be higher level than even the most powerful legendary beings we know of -- Erandis d'Vol, the Great Druid Oalian, etc. It's not saying you can't have one, but if he exists he's going to be world famous and the subject of countless songs and stories. Not necessarily. Erandis D'vol's power is enough to shake worlds but she's also more important because of historical reasons. All I'm saying is the focus on prohibiting additions of higher levels is a tad premature.
aelryinth 07-09-06, 08:48 PM	Even in core D&D lvl 11+ characters are "legendary". (See the _legend lore_ spell.) A lvl 20 NPC is going to be higher level than even the most powerful legendary beings we know of -- Erandis d'Vol, the Great Druid Oalian, etc. It's not saying you can't have one, but if he exists he's going to be world famous and the subject of countless songs and stories. Legendary? Maybe 'talked about by bards.' Legendary is Epic. This is the unfortunate rinse out of level creep. Back in the day, they had a mechanic for 'legends' - Name Level. This was the point where if you decided to stake a claim to land, your fame was enough to attract followers to you...i.e. you were talked about and 'known'. Leadership sort of does this, but has no wider implications. I'd probably have to read Power of Faerun to get a better mechanic for actual 'fame', but 11+ characters in Greyhawk and Faerun might be respected, but with the amount of Epic running around, certainly aren't legends. ==+Aelryinth
Splendide 07-09-06, 08:52 PM	Legendary? Maybe 'talked about by bards.' Legendary is Epic.I guess that depends on the scale of your world. In my games, there is no epic. I'm also fairly sure that there's no epic in core D&D either.
ArcTan 07-09-06, 08:53 PM	Well, talked about bards enough that some bard in a completely different country who's never met you or been anywhere you've been nonetheless knows your story. That's pretty special -- what I suppose we'd think of in our world as "famous" or "a celebrity". Written down in legend for generations and generations and generations and remembered 5,000 years later, sure, that's epic. Epic doesn't even exist in Eberron so far -- according to Keith the last epic warriors died generations ago, back in the Age of Monsters, before the existence of human civilization on Khorvaire.
Charles Phipps 07-09-06, 09:05 PM	I oddly use Dragonlance as the standard to judge Eberron by (at least for PCs, monsters I base on Ravenloft). In Dragonlance, the most famous heroes "Evarr" are the Heroes of the Lance. They're a bunch of 7th levels who end up at 11th-13th level. That doesn't mean some awesomely powerful warriors don't exist, it just means that THEY were the ones to save the ENTIRE world.
Errant 07-09-06, 10:30 PM	Seems to me its far too easy to link 'high level' to 'fame', when if you think about it, the higher in level a character gets the obvious the differences to 'normal' folk. I mean, how does your average NPC tell the difference between a 8th level fighter and an 18th level fighter if they're both walking down the street or sitting in the same bar? Sure, PC equipment is typically going to get more powerful, but can how much difference can Mr Average see between a +3 Frost Longsword and a +5 Holy Icy Burst Longsword? The former will look impressive, and the latter even more impressive, sure, but people aren't likely to go around categorizing and collectiong comparative ratings for every impressive looking stranger that walks through town are they? Likewise, many high level class powers (and spells) are very flashy IF you get to see them in action, but even if Mr Average gets to see a Meteor Swarm cast, does he really appreciate how much more powerful it is than a decent Fireball? Even on the battlefields of the Last War, did the average soldier keep track of how many and how powerful the spells were that supporting mages cast? If you allow that most people have a little trouble distinguishing between mid-level and high-level level "heroes"/effects, its easy to see how many higher level characters could be underestimated and blend into the background as just another "tough'/accomplished individual. I guess my point is, there could easily be a lot more "high level"/powerful individuals out there than public perception realises.
Hellcow 07-09-06, 11:01 PM	All people are incompetents on the planet except the PCs and can contibrute nothing against the bad guys. One point I'll make - and it's the only one I have time for - is that I disagree with the concept that low-level people ARE worthless. Even by standard D&D demographics, most people in the world are 1st level commoners. So most people you meet are going to have 4 levels of a Craft or Profession skill, maybe +1 from their standard array stats, and possibly a +3 from Skill Focus. That gives you a +8 bonus... not that bad! Give him a masterwork tool and he can hit a DC 30 check with an exceptional role! Likewise, if MOST soldiers are 1st or 2nd-level warriors, a 5th level fighter IS impressive. The point is to establish the baseline of the world. If the BASELINE - 95 out of a 100 people you'll meet on the street - is a 1st-level NPC class character, then a 6th level PC-class character IS an fairly amazing person. So my whole point is not to assume that you HAVE to be high-level to be remarkably skilled. A 6th-level magewright with magecraft, Skill Focus, and a masterwork tool can have a +21 to a Craft check... not too shabby! With that said, I agree with many of CP's points. There are certainly high level opponents out there. And the most important villains - Erandis, the Lord of Blades - may certainly level as the PCs do, as may others. Still, the average soldier is never any higher than 5th level warrior or fighter at best, and it does make it very difficult to challenge high level PCs with mass of NPCs. Correct, because the high-level PC shouldn't be challenged by average soldiers. If the nations need to challenge high level PCs, they are going to need to go to make a serious effort to do it. Sharn can call on the Blackened Book, the Redcloaks, the Citadel. Zilargo will bring in an elite Trust strike force (check out Madra Sil Sarin in Sharn). Anyone with enough gold can hire Thuranni. Are these people going to match high-level PCs one to one? Probably not. But as has been said, a group of competant mid-level characters acting with strong group tactics, with foreknowledge of their opponents' abilities and equipment to match, can pose a threat to careless higher level characters. The answer to rampaging PCs isn't an army of first-level NPCs... it's a few Redcloak teams working with tactical precision. A high level PC SHOULD feel special, and should feel that he's not just going to get taken down by an average city guard. But elite forces do exist - they're just not AS elite as their counterparts in Waterdeep. And, of course, there's nothing in Eberron saying that you CAN'T add higher level NPCs to your campaign. It's not that there CAN'T be high level NPCs in the world, or that we'll come and burn down your DM screen if you add a new 15th-level cleric. It's just that D&D demographics say the world is mostly populated by 1st-level NPCs, and Eberron embraces that. Low-level is normal, and high-level people are remarkable.
Hellcow 07-09-06, 11:05 PM	Also, Aelryinth has hit it on the head with the point about high-level spellcasters. The thing about Eberron is that the relative derth of high-level spellcasters means that spells of 5th level are harder to come by. There just aren't a lot of people around who can throw wish or miracle around. Not that you can't add them, or that they can't arise as the PCs rise in level... but some of the basic assumptions of the level of magic in the world are founded on the idea that such things aren't commonplace - that you can't just go to a metropolis and buy a wish.
pquekadl 07-10-06, 01:30 AM	I like to think that most of the high level characters died performing heroic acts during the last war and that the fearsome conflict prevented others ferm reaching that level because thay just couldn't live long enough. Now that the conflict has (sort of) stopped individuals across Khorvaire will once again be able to grow to great power.
Edymnion 07-10-06, 01:43 AM	I prefer to think that the high level forces in Eberron are essentially balanced and holding each other at bay. No one group dares to make a move because they know the rest of the setting would band together to smack them back down. Everybody wants the world for themselves, and everybody is willing to make a temporary alliance with everybody else to make sure somebody doesn't get it first. Especially considering the Quori would be actively working to PREVENT any high level stuff from really going on, out of fear that it would trigger changing of the age and their own destruction. So while Vol might want to take over a country, the Reiderans are stopping her. The Lords of Dust might want to pull something big, but the Dragons put a stop to it. Daelkyr might break loose, but all of the above turn around to try and get it imprisoned again ASAP. And thats why high level adventuring becomes available to high level PCs, they upset the balance, and fights break out while things try to settle back down. Why didn't that Rajah break free earlier? Because everybody else was holding it in check, but when these high level PCs waltz through, they turned to see what was up, and the Rajah slipped out during the distraction, that sort of thing. Epic play is there, but with the setting balanced the way it is, that sort of thing doesn't cause problems until the PCs go sticking their noses where they don't belong.