Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Setherial 09-19-05, 05:36 AM	I know alignments get blurred in Eberron and I for one love this because it's way more realistic but what we did yesterday was plain evil, here follows a summary of our session : We (a shifter barbarian, an Elf Ranger and a Human Sorcerer) are the proud owners of some land (basically a large swamp) in Aundair and the remains of a castle (a ruin with one tower still standing and still livable). We got our hands on this land by trading it for the life saving apple we brought back out of the Sunless Citadel (the cure to save a mans life for his estate :). Ok this was a few sessions ago and maybe not the nicest thing to do but to get rich one must be hard. Ok now we need money to rebuild our castle so we joined an Adventurers guild and took the highest paying bounty hunt they had (probably way over our heads). The job is to eliminate a shaman living in Droaam so we went from Fairhaven to Wroat on the lightning rail (lowest class, 3 days travel in dire circumstances (we are really poor as our DM plays a low rewards game) and planned on travelling to Droaam from there on. We stayed the night in the best tavern we could find just so we could have a break after the long hard travel on the lighting rail. Next morning there is a note on my door telling me to go somewhere for a job, no name, no further info. What it came down to is this guy who claimed to be an Aundairian Secret Agent who offered us 6000 gold for a job. The job was to board an airship travelling to Droaam (lucky us), kill a high placed dragonmarked member of house Orien who supposidly smuggled dreamlilly and was involved in other illigal business, and once over the Greywall mountains and crash the ship. We would get false papers, tickets and a device to counter all magic and free the fire elemental in case we could not disable the ship otherwise. We took the job, it was on our way and payed well. We got 2000gold ahead (though it would be a miricale if we ever see this guy again to get the rest), boarded the ship, killed a few members of the staff to dress up like them so we could get past the guards at the VIP quaters, killed the House Orien member, killed his 2 bodyguards and set fire to his room. After a panic broke out and we couldn't figur out how to disable the ship we eventually were forced to use the antimagic device and free the elemental. We crashed not past the greywall mountains but straight into them. Lukily we found a portal after a few days of travel trough the snow on the peaks of the mountains that brought us to the plains past the mountains, the place we should have crashed the ship. All in all it was a fun session with a lot of action and teamwork. Ofcourse it was also the session we crossed the line. We might not ever get blamed for the ship going down nor for killing everyone on it as we travelled under false names but we did assassinate a lot of people just for the promise of gold from a guy we didn't even check out (not that we could, the Royal Eyes (that's what they are called right ?) of Aundair don't officially exist). I wonder what's next because my character really didn't start out as a bad guy, he isn't. He has a short temper and likes to bash heads but he is not evil. Now however he did some pretty evil stuff and I wonder how much further I will take it. Will this lead me to a road where I will do anything to get rich and powerfull or will I try to redeem myself and seek to better myself and make up in some way... My question about this all is how many of you so called good characters take on jobs from people claiming to work for this or that power and in the course of their quest kill and maim for the mere promise of gold or title. Aren't we all a bid evil once we take up the sword or throw our first fireball ? cheers Seth
ieattrollsforbreakfast 09-19-05, 06:40 AM	What your character has been through is entirely real, he was lured by riches greater than he had ever seen, and commited atrocities to get them. I think we can all agree that the actions of the group were evil, but that doesn't mean you have to decend further into that role. I think there is excellent scope for character development and roleplay if you play up the fact your character regrets his actions. Perhaps, after commiting such acts in the name of gold, he forsakes it altogether, living the ascetic's life (and takes the Vow of Poverty). Perhaps your character seeks to atone for his actions, seeking out the friends and families of his victims and splitting the gold he earnt between them. Your character could ultimately arise from these actions a much better, perhaps even exalted, person. When playing a good character, it is important to think of the consequences and respect life in general, but remeber that everyone has flaws, so there is nothing too wrong with straying from the path of righteousness every once in a while. So long as you don't stray too far and too often that is. In fact, it is often the flaws, not the virtues, of a character that can make him memorable. You might have a good character that fights evil by day, and collects jewelry by night. Perhaps, once in a while, your character finds a piece so alluring that he has to have it, even if it means a five finger discount.
Pinky's brain 09-19-05, 06:55 AM	Id say that if you were good then the moment you decided to just kill staff to get access to your target warranted an alignment shift to neutral ... that is a pretty damn evil act IMO. Things can change, but for the moment I dont think any of you qualify as good anymore.
Eronthar 09-19-05, 07:24 AM	Killing a drug dealer is acceptible in my book. But killing a ship full of innocents, pretty though decision. Lives must be protected not spended on simply for money. Money maybe a matter in game world as well as in real. But being an example of goodness don't come with money. It's all about decisions i guess. If you really sorry about what you've done, it'll give you one big reason why you won't take similar tasks in the future. Everyone deserves a second chance. Be carefull with your second chance. ;)
Setherial 09-19-05, 08:11 AM	In the real world this would never have happend ofcourse, it's crazy but now I'm thinking what in the world made us do it as fictional characters ??? It's still ****ed up. I agree with ieattrollsforbreakfast that this situation opens a lot of roleplaying possebilities and I think I'm going to take the road of feeling really guilty and trying to change my ways, make up somehow... Pinky's brain: A shift to Neutral, are you kidding me ??? I was Neutral already and killing innocents is far from neutral. I just feel wierd about my character right now, I'll discuss it with my DM and try to find a sollution to roleplaying this all the way through without breaking from the group. I know the elf will agree with me but the sorcerer sure wont (He likes evil and isn't comming back). I guess since we played Eberron I'm starting to feel the difference our DM places on things getting way less black and white. We're not killing savage orks anymore or bloodthirsty monsters. We're killing people in a game of politics! Dnd is getting serious :)
fireinthedust 09-19-05, 11:58 AM	as the alignment issue is a role playing tool for eberron, rather than the multiverse allegiance in other settings, think of your character as someone who reacts the way they do if they'd done something. It's a personality test. Your character sees the (objectively evil) acts and finds them repulsive. perhaps your character, once neutral and uncaring about the subject, uses the event as a catalyst: "oh man, that's messed up; this is wrong!" Now the alignment change is for the good. He didn't have the language for the actions before, but reflection has told him "hey, this is not a good (beneficial/perspective of the world) thing to be doing". So he was neutral on the issue, but now he's good. Think xena warrior princess, or even just "ok, no more of that!"
Setherial 09-20-05, 02:37 AM	I can live with this. It seemed like just a job to him before he did it but now he is totally repulsed by his actions. He'll change his life and try to do as much good as possible. I'm even thinking of hunting down the one who gave the order to destroy that ship and bring him down (as an outled for his frustration, not that it would change anything!!). cheers Seth
DeadZone 09-20-05, 04:59 AM	You think you guys are evil... My PC's had 3 wolves come into their camp. The ranger began to speak to them. The wolves told them they were hungry and hunting for food to help feed their master. What do my PC's do? They take out the bows and plug the wolves full of arrows. Master comes over the hill to find his hunting dogs murdered. The master is an ogre. Before he can do much he's plugged full of arrows as well. PC's rest up, and in the morning track him back to his house where they find his wife. They enter the mud hut and slaughter her. In the back of the hut they find the infant son of the now murdered Ogres. What do they do? You guessed it. Without even a moment's hesitation they cut the child's head off. With that troublesome bit of business squared away, they then finish looting the house and stroll merrily on their way. The alignments are supposed to be blurred in Eberron, but I was shocked.. haha. The one comitting most of the atrocities has stated he wants to be "a champion of the people, someone who sticks up for the little guy". Uh huh... he's really nice until NPC X Y or Z don't do exactly what he wants them to. "Well if the Ogre wasn't hungry and had just brought his treasure with him, we wouldn't have been forced to go to his place and take it by force." You're not so evil... you were offered 6000 gold.. all they found was about 300 gold ;) - DZ
Brastan 09-20-05, 05:48 AM	:shocked: DeadZone... that... ah... I... uh...(feels sick) Not even in the heaviest bouts of paranoia has a character of mine so boldly crossed that line or so swiftly. Setherial has brought up a point, that I think is being quasi-addressed in another thread, how gray is gray? If there is diffulty in telling when you've corssed the line might I suggest the Neverwinter Nights alignment scale system. You have a good/evil axis and law/chaos axis, a LG character starts at 100 - 100. Good 100 | 66 | Lawful 100 — 66 — Neutral 50 — 33 — Chaotic 0 | 33 | Evil 0 The rangers 66 to 33 indicate Neutrally. You add or subtract points base on your actions. The number you alter the score by is base on how important the event was or how much it applies to a given alignment. In the case of the air ship I'd say they lost maybe 6 points on good/evil and maybe gained a net 1 point in lawful(they did basically fallow the instructions to the letter). I'd say that party has 44 G/E and 51 L/C at the moment. DeadZone's batch of characters... dropped to neutral ranges at best. The wolves lost them some points as they knew what the animals were about. The hunter same story as the wolves. The wife and child dropped them some major points. Any paladin running under be would have lost his powers sure and LG clerics would be looking at getting some ****** spells for the next few months if not years. The only mitigating factor would have been if they were praying on the local village and it was clear they were doing so.
Setherial 09-20-05, 08:02 AM	I' m not really concerned about mapping a groups actions to a good versus evil/lawfull versus chaotic system. Aside from characters who loose their class abilities (Paladin...) it really doesn't matter what's on a sheet of paper its the roleplaying part that counts. In case of Deadzone his players are obviously a bunch of fellows who don't think twice about killing anything that isn't like them (monster/alien/different) wich is not all that uncommen in classic Dnd. So as a DM I would use this and maybe I could come to a point at the end of a campaign where the players realize they have commited atrocities which makes them change their lives. If this can be achieved then that party still has a concience and isn't true evil, it can be a very nice ending to a campaign. I find it difficult to imagine the Forgotten Realms kind of true evil, evil for the sake of evil, pure sadism. Eberron is more fun then that, everyday people do harm out of greed and selfishness like real people. This makes them evil but on a small scale, a realistic and far more commen scale (since there is evil in all of us, a child is born selfish but we teach it to better itself by example). In the case of my character I think having done some seriously wrong stuff and regretting it gives my character a very real and very cool personality. An inner duality, a dark secret he shares with his companions and something that will always torment him, even if he does nothing but good from this day on. Another issue I want to discuss is looting and undead. How often do adventurers loot their victims, or rob graves (even following the cliche that the tomb has an undead kight inside). A truely noble soul (one one only sees in movies) would not kill his attackers, he would wound them enough to disable them and then provide aid. If he was forced to kill them he would burry their bodies, possessions in tact. Put a cross on top of the graves and say some words so their souls could move on to the afterlife. People like my own group of players have gotten too accustomed to looting anything they can kill, they steal at every opportunity and still call themselves good or neutral. It would be cool if my character sought redemption trough faith, maybe even becomming a Paladin. Would be fantastic from a roleplaying point of view but current game mechanics seriously undermine this. My base abilities are terrible for playing a paladin but then again maybe this should not matter and playing my character is more important then building a killing machine.
DeadZone 09-20-05, 10:20 PM	You don't have to be a paladin to weild righteous might. Any character can devote himself to a cause. You could be even more righteous than a paladin in some ways. You don't get given all the gifts they do yet you go even farther than they would to uphold the tenants of your chosen faith. As for the looting of everything slain, what *is* up with that?! Hah.. I'm right with you on that one. In the city I can usually lean the weight of the law on them to keep them from pulling the gold fillings out of the mouths of their slain foes. Out in the country though all I can do is make as many things unique. Anything good is described in detail. It's someone's item and anyone who knew that someone would recognize it. It plants the seeds for NPC payback at a later date. You wouldn't murder some dude, and cruise around his 'hood in his ride. I mean, if you did, what do you figure his friends would do? I constantly shake my head when my PC's start using the magic items of people they've cut down. There must be more solutions to the problem. In the last session I ran, they came across the grave of a fallen warrior, and they would have exhumed and looted the corpse had they not forgotten a shovel or pick. One PC was making an argument that if they took turns digging with their bare hands they could get to the body in less than a day. - DZ
Setherial 09-21-05, 02:48 AM	LOL, your pc's are maniacs :) At least the guys in my party with the exception of one would not lower themselves to digging up corpses with their bare hands. A tomb above ground that they can simply open they loot in the blink of an eye though :)